Chinese firm wins Turkey's missile defense system tender

[Ray]

Used to.

Swiss for High Altitude!

 

[p2prada]

Between 12-24, with an attached systems integration piece and a logistics contract.

A single S-300 PMU-2 battery costs around $115-120 Million.

At $3 Billion, the FD-2000 should cost $125 Million each for 24 batteries.

Depends on what missiles were ordered too.

 

[t_co]

A single S-300 PMU-2 battery costs around $115-120 Million.

At $3 Billion, the FD-2000 should cost $125 Million each for 24 batteries.

Depends on what missiles were ordered too.

Based on the Russia's original S-300 contract for China, the systems integration and logistics add-ons to the original contract should run at around 30% of the total price.

So 3bn - 30% = 2bn left for batteries. Assuming China put in a bit of a discount (~$100mm per battery), then that's 20 batteries.

For comparison, a Patriot battery runs about $150-170mm per, with a 50% integration/logistics package.

 

[shiphone]

to P2P

the latest rumor says 12 Battalions ....if it is true , Turkey might will order 3-4 sets of Brigade-Level Commanding Posts and Early Warning Radars as well...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
part 5

3.Brigade-Level Air Intelligence Early Warning and Surveillance system

in this catalogue, China's electronic industry has offered various Export models suitable for FD2000 sys ...most of these models have a detection range 300+ Kms ,( between 300-450 kms and normally those mentioned Battalion Level radar's range is 180-250 Kms ), 3D Surveillance ,all solid-state, certain mobility, anti jamming ,phased array or frequency-scanning antenna ...I would like to list some typical models already displayed and marketed on the international defence Expos :

1.JYL-1/JYL-11
2.YLC-2/YLC-2A/YLC-2E
3.JL3

a batch of 2D Long Range Surveillance Radars with longer range (400Km plus) are also available...some Meter Wave radar

-------------------------------------------------

4.Brigade-Level Commanding Post ----higher level commanding and coordination function

 

[CCTV]

i think @ shiphone already pointed out that china isnt exporting the original version of the system rather a tone down version of it... i guess then china doesnt really need a new system altogether....

OT...:: is china procuring S400 system...??

Well, S400 is far from ready to sell.....
It's sub systems such as long range missiles are far from finalize the design.....

 

[no smoking]

Re: Chinese Firm Wins Big Turkish Air-Defense Deal

You think they will allow you?

No, they won't "allow" us, some Chinese engineers will just loss their way and happenend to appear in a Turkey military base where these Nato equipments is deployed.

Just like US has never "allowed" any sensitive tech/knowledge to export to China by either herself or her allies. But somehow, some of them just found out that Chinese progressed on some R&D after their allies asked some technological questions.

 

[t_co]

Re: Chinese Firm Wins Big Turkish Air-Defense Deal

No, they won't "allow" us, some Chinese engineers will just loss their way and happenend to appear in a Turkey military base where these Nato equipments is deployed.

Just like US has never "allowed" any sensitive tech/knowledge to export to China by either herself or her allies. But somehow, some of them just found out that Chinese progressed on some R&D after their allies asked some technological questions.

Tech transfer on these deals is a lot more mundane than even engineers losing their way. Turkey has to open up about the other elements in its system or else China can't interface the $3bn package - e.g., make it see what the radars are seeing and fire when anyone who is authorized to launch presses a button.

 

[Neil]

Well, S400 is far from ready to sell.....
It's sub systems such as long range missiles are far from finalize the design.....

i think u are confused between S400 and S500... according to wiki S400 is already deployed ... 72 units - 9 battalions

 

[t_co]

i think u are confused between S400 and S500... according to wiki S400 is already deployed ... 72 units - 9 battalions

We know the S400 is deployed, but as of June 2012 I was told that the S400 system would likely not be exported as long as a market for the S300 existed.

Events - Performance & Vulnerabilities of Modern IADs/SAMs Conference | AOC

 

[CCTV]

i think u are confused between S400 and S500... according to wiki S400 is already deployed ... 72 units - 9 battalions

Yes, should be s500. S400 lose the bid this time.
Chinese firm under U.S. sanctions wins Turkish missile deal | Reuters

 

[t_co]

Yes, should be s500. S400 lose the bid this time.
Chinese firm under U.S. sanctions wins Turkish missile deal | Reuters

Actually, the Russian system for sale was the S300. Neither China nor Russia is exporting their latest air-defense systems - the S-400 and HQ-19.

 

[CCTV]

Actually, the Russian system for sale was the S300. Neither China nor Russia is exporting their latest air-defense systems - the S-400 and HQ-19.

According to the news is s400.
S400 have another name : s300pmu-3.

 

[t_co]

An interesting (if dated) comparative analysis of US vs. Chinese IADS design mentalities:

China's integrated air defenses—based on cheap, sometimes stolen digital
technology—are now considered potentially more threatening to the U.S. than
Russia's. The wholesale use of commercial products has made Chinese
networks flexible, easy to upgrade and tough to exploit.

[....]

"The Chinese, like many countries without billions to spend on defense, are
figuring out how to leverage all that commercial technology into their military
capabilities," says Rance Walleston, BAE Systems' director of information
operations initiative and information warfare. "We've spent a lot of time looking at
Chinese technologies. They're not building many unique devices. Their
integrated air defense system [IADS] uses commercial standards," such as GSM
and voice over Internet protocols (VOIP).

The Syrian raid—which involved air-to-ground and network-to-network electronic
invasion of a Russian-built IADS—is convincing some that custom-built, highly
specialized and expensive air defenses with long development times are
decreasing in deterrent value. In fact, they have become victims of their own
uniqueness. Because they were hard to develop and field, they aren't often
modified. That gives electronic warriors the time to conduct analysis and build
countermeasures.

But last year's events haven't changed U.S. government views of the threat.

"A lot of the threat models used to evaluate whether new programs work are
outdated," says a participant in electronic warfare and network attack since the
1992-95 conflict in Bosnia. "They are Soviet-era models. Where are the people
who are thinking about what the Chinese IADS really look like? The Israelis are
already running up against different defenses now that they've highlighted some
of the weaknesses in Syria's air defenses."

But some senior U.S. Air Force officials disagree.

"The Chinese have been spending significant amounts for years on their IADS,
and while they do exploit commercial technologies, they also buy and co-develop
advanced missiles and radars with the Russians and others," says a former top
USAF acquisition official. "Network attack has been an integral part of taking
down an IADS for years and is integral to all of the major modeling activities."

U.S. intelligence analysts point out that in air defense, like other areas, China is
pursuing multiple paths that include embracing purchased systems as well as
developing their own high- and low-end solutions. The same is the case in air 62 of 76
Compiled by RC Anderson -- http://rcandersonmarketing.com/
defense, they note, where the Chinese are buying Russian systems and also
developing their own versions based on what they learn from the acquired
systems.

That inability to change quickly also is reflected in U.S. defense acquisition
practices. For example, "the U.S. still insists on building a lot of unique radios
when they could use the commercial infrastructure and then build their own gear
to encrypt it for the last mile [of wireless communications in combat]," the EW
specialist says.

"Why spend billions on [joint tactical radios and future combat systems] that they
can't make as well the commercial companies? Why build high-power, aerial
standoff jammers when there are cheaper and more sophisticated ways to do
that mission with finesse [using lower-power data streams packed with
algorithms to disrupt, mislead or take over enemy systems]? If you believe the
trend in insurgent or terrorist command and control is toward low-power
communications, what is a B-52-based jammer going to do? If I stand off 100 mi.,
there's no way I'm going to have any impact on these threats."

 

[Neil]

very old article but it says the russia had offered Turkey S400...

Russia has renewed an earlier offer for the direct sale of S-400 missiles to Turkey to outdo its main rival the US, the military says.

Russia renews missile offer to Turkey

 

[t_co]

very old article but it says the russia had offered Turkey S400...



Russia renews missile offer to Turkey

@CCTV

That's news to me. My sources indicated Russia was only offering the PMU2.

EDIT: My sources also told me one of the major selling points of the Chinese offering was its clear advantage in upgradeability and flexibility; especially the cheapness of anticipated future upgrades. Basically, the US and Russia were selling Windows; China was selling Linux.

 

[ice berg]

Its S300......

Concerns Mount Over Turk-China Defense System | Defense News | defensenews.com

ANKARA — A Turkish decision to commission a Chinese company to build Turkey's first long-range air and missile defense shield presents any number of challenges to Turkey's Western allies, both politically and militarily, defense analysts and Western diplomats said.

"How could Turkey, protected by NATO assets, ignore the alliance's concerns and opt for an air defense system to be built by a non-friendly country?" asked a NATO defense attaché in Ankara.

Turkey announced on Sept. 26 that it awarded the initially $4 billion contract for the air defense architecture to China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp. (CPMIEC), maker of the HQ-9 system.

CPMIEC defeated a US partnership of Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, offering the Patriot air defense system; Russia's Rosoboronexport, marketing the S-300; and the Italian-French consortium Eurosam, maker of the Surface-to-Air-Missile Platform/Terrain Aster 30. Industry sources say the Chinese proposal would cost Turkey $3 billion to $3.5 billion, although officials did not confirm the price.

In February, the United States announced sanctions on CPMIEC for violations of the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act.

The Turkish program consists of radar, launcher and intercept missiles. It has been designed to counter both enemy aircraft and missiles. Turkey has no long-range air defense system.

A Turkish procurement official admitted that Ankara does not fully know at this stage what level of integration it could achieve between the planned air defense system and the NATO and national assets the country possesses. "We will be striving to make this a national system, not a Chinese one, although we will use Chinese technology," he said. He did not comment on whether the proposed system could be integrated into the NATO assets stationed in Turkey.

But experts, analysts and officials say integration with NATO assets is unlikely. "NATO has the technical capabilities to isolate the Turkish air defense architecture by denying Ankara the interface data necessary for any integration," a Western defense official said.

A London-based Turkey specialist said Turkey would most likely end up having a standalone system. "[NATO] member nations will refuse any cooperation with Turkey for the integration of the Chinese system into the alliance's assets deployed in Turkey. This will leave the eventual Turkish architecture in a senseless standalone position," he said.

About half of Turkey's network-based air defense picture has been paid for by NATO. They are part of the NATO Air Defense Ground Environment. Without NATO's consent, it will be impossible for Turkey to make the planned system operate with these assets.

To defend against missile threats, Turkey needs satellite and dedicated ballistic-missile detection and tracking radar, like the NATO radar deployed last year in Kurecik, in southeastern Turkey.

For the anti-aircraft component, Turkey needs an overall picture for data fusion. The Patriot system, for instance, can detect threats with its own radar. So does the Chinese system. But without integrating into a full air picture, the Chinese system could not work efficiently, analysts said.

"Abstracting the air defense system from NATO assets would mean that Turkey will lose half of its radar capabilities," said one defense analyst here. He said Turkey would need interface data to make its own air defense architecture interoperable with NATO assets, primarily data on the identify friend or foe system. "This is top secret and cannot be installed into any Chinese system," the analyst said.

The Turkish move also is viewed as a political challenge to the country's Western allies.

"This is clearly a nod to the SCO [Shanghai Security Cooperation]," a European and NATO ambassador here said. "And a powerful message to [Turkey's] NATO allies"¦ that Turkey may no longer be the staunch ally it used to be."

The SCO member states are China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Turkey in 2012 won the dialogue partner status at the SCO. This year, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey would seek membership in SCO, an organization often viewed as a rival to NATO.

But some analysts say awarding the contract to CPMIEC does not mean it will take effect and Turkey will eventually build a system based on Chinese technology.

"At the moment, the average contract negotiation time in the Turkish procurement system [after a winner has been announced] is about two years," a source said. "And there have been several negotiations ending up in failure before a contract was signed. Even after signing a contract, some programs have failed to materialize. This is a possibility for this one, too."

 

[Neil]

yup i think its S300 PMU2....

Russia did offer Turkey S400/S300 PMU-3 but through FMS route and only after 2015 after development and deployment of advanced S400 ... since turkey refused cancellation of tender S300 PMU2 was offered... -- i stand corrected...

 

[I-G]

US `seriously concerned` about Turkey`s Chinese missile choice

 

[nimo_cn]

US `seriously concerned` about Turkey`s Chinese missile choice

they are totally overreacting, it's just some air defence missiles, not an atomic bomb.

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2

 

[t_co]

US `seriously concerned` about Turkey`s Chinese missile choice

The entire US/NATO defense lobby is shitting on this deal; it's both annoying from a security perspective and a direct threat to their pocketbooks.