Chinese experts explain why India and Russia jointly develop FGFA

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The Messiah

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why dont you stick to issuing " are we going to be slaves , huh uuh" topics. you would not know a source from TOT if it came and slapped that cigar out of your mouth...
well done at deflecting the question :clap: :rolleyes:
 

JayATL

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Its better to look naive than stupid.
I quoted the links you provide earlier and by quoting some new links if you intend to prove my naivety then frankly you don't really make a point.
Also, the "it is a known fact..." crap may work in a Puki forum not here.

The post that you are referring to I mentioned and quoted


So, instead of trying to piss off people try to cool your head off and post in a coherent fashion, maybe then people would take you seriously.
so let me get this , you are not aware about a fundamental offer made ages ago to India- yet you chose to debate it . Then I quoted from the original links I provided

""Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements," including on security and infrastructure, the Defense Department said yesterday in a congressionally mandated report on U.S.-India security cooperation"


Then you showed you were not aware that JSF part of the " offer" is the program name i.e. JSF is not the aircraft rather the name of the program that multiple nations are a part off


after all that--- you want to claim I'm incoherent. right.. next time , come to debate with atlest the minimum knowledge .
 

Dovah

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so let me get this , you are not aware about a fundamental offer made ages ago to India- yet you chose to debate it . Then I quoted from the original links I provided

""Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements," including on security and infrastructure, the Defense Department said yesterday in a congressionally mandated report on U.S.-India security cooperation"


Then you showed you were not aware that JSF part of the " offer" is the program name i.e. JSF is not the aircraft rather the name of the program that multiple nations are a part off


after all that--- you want to claim I'm incoherent. right.. next time , come to debate with atlest the minimum knowledge .
Here's the link I quoted from your post #12

Pentagon Awaits India’s Interest in Lockheed Martin F-35 Fighter - Businessweek

As opposed to you who quoted the link

US offers India partnership in development of Joint Strike Fighter - Economic Times in post #15.

Now that we have got this straight.

There is no minimum knowledge criteria here, I was wrong about the offer and I admitted it, you should have mentioned it in your first post if you wanted the posters to have a minimum knowledge before replying so its fault at your end.

You're the first thread starter who deliberately tries to take his thread off topic just because he has realized what a shitty and non legit the topic really is.
 

Falcon

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A very unbias article. I'm telling you guys. US is freaking wide open to it and EU is desperate..... Scrap PAK-FA, as you can read its not going to be technological advanced 5th gen with european packages added. The indian govt can get maybe 30% involvement ( 5 % more than russian deal) and almost the same deal from the US on F35. and you will have the same advantages expressed in the article for your industries and get a more advanced aircraft.

and! not have to deal with Russian delays, price hikes, supply chain issues, shoddy products, high maintainence issues
I think you need to see this::::::::::::;


and these as well:::::::





 
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Dovah

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I think you need to see this::::::::::::;


and these as well:::::::





Those videos are not for people whose brain has been hot-wired for selective comprehension.
 
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JayATL

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^^^^No thank you - all though I'm a huge Maddow fan! Maddow does not say that F22 is not greatest aircraft on earth today. she is bringing all the corruption which came with it. I'm watching for real reporting on the F 35 issues. I'm seeing that there are issues with it but it has proven a hell of a lot too. The freaking aircraft carrier from russia is delayed now what 3 years? and did the N-submarine they were leasing India not have issues ( that too on old / proven tech)

I have full confidence in theJSf program and mind you ! most issues are with F35B and Not F35 A . But shoot its hell more advanced and closer to resolving its issues and being a superb bird than where PAK -FA is at...

I'm looking out for India, russia track record is horriable and that what Indian military and govt says...not just me
 
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JayATL

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Here's the link I quoted from your post #12

Pentagon Awaits India's Interest in Lockheed Martin F-35 Fighter - Businessweek

As opposed to you who quoted the link

US offers India partnership in development of Joint Strike Fighter - Economic Times in post #15.

Now that we have got this straight.

There is no minimum knowledge criteria here, I was wrong about the offer and I admitted it, you should have mentioned it in your first post if you wanted the posters to have a minimum knowledge before replying so its fault at your end.

You're the first thread starter who deliberately tries to take his thread off topic just because he has realized what a shitty and non legit the topic really is.
DUDE, the link you quoted from - what is the second paragraph say ? ""Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements," including on security and infrastructure, the Defense Department said yesterday in a congressionally mandated report on U.S.-India security cooperation"

right there is also the talk about offering JSF program to India- just that you had no clue JSF is a partner program!
 

JayATL

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What some of you are not getting is rather thinking I'm against India's benefit here. I have said US is stragically desperate and europe is economically desperate - so get the same deal from the JSF program you have got from PAK-FA! and get a better aircraft knowing that no russan aircraft with have advanced avionics that europe offers!

If you are stuck on being head strong that this will " your" aircraft made ( 25% input only). then why even bother with MMRCA? Stick to trying to building your own with 25% JV with russia. Is the goal not get the best for india , while also reaping in the same benefits of what you have with PAk_fa and then some?

Now I have also shown links where Us says it wants to "co-develop" military programs with India. Note " develop" and not just " sell". So there you have it - JSF partners also get much of the TOT. unless you expect to get more than NATO. why give up the good for the perfect. The good being a higher tech than russians can offer...

what is with this attachment to the russians ? they are providing bombers( new stleath JV) and greater tech, weapons to the chinese that WILL BE used against India, in the event of a Indo- china skermish...The greatest threat to india, according to Inidan militray is not pakistan- its china!
 
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pmaitra

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What some of you are not getting is rather thinking I'm against India's benefit here. I have said US is stragically desperate and europe is economically desperate - so get the same deal from the JSF program you have got from PAK-FA! and get a better aircraft knowing that no russan aircraft with have advanced avionics that europe offers!
I think there is one thing you can do. Before I tell you that, let me share my experience.

Many Americans say that US and India are allies. I correct them by saying that we are friends but not allies and we will not be in the foreseeable future. I tell them, you gotta pick either Pakistan or India, but you cannot pick both. If you ditch Pakistan, we may consider. Most of them, out of conviction or politeness, pick India over Pakistan. The US Foreign Department does not think so.

So this is what you can do. Help build public opinion among influential people in the US so that the US ditches Pakistan, takes out their nukes and simply stays neutral when we steamroll into Pakistan and dismember it. That would be a great help and we shall be grateful to you (and all others in this effort), if it sees fruition.

Don't forget Pakistan has been hiding OBL.

If you are stuck on being head strong that this will " your" aircraft made ( 25% input only). then why even bother with MMRCA? Stick to trying to building your own with 25% JV with russia. Is the goal not get the best for india , while also reaping in the same benefits of what you have with PAk_fa and then some?
You could be right, but do we have the details to compare which one is better of the two? Unless we have the details, why harp on?

Now I have also shown links where Us says it wants to "co-develop" military programs with India. Note " develop" and not just " sell". So there you have it - JSF partners also get much of the TOT. unless you expect to get more than NATO. why give up the good for the perfect. The good being a higher tech than russians can offer...
Personally, I am open to US-India join development. I would judge every joint-project neutrally. Whether with the Russians, French, US ... we will go with that project where we get the maximum knowledge, as simple as that.

what is with this attachment to the russians ? they are providing bombers( new stleath JV) and greater tech, weapons to the chinese that WILL BE used against India, in the event of a Indo- china skermish...The greatest threat to india, according to Inidan militray is not pakistan- its china!
They are also providing weapons to India that we could use against PRC. They worked with us and successfully completed the BrahMos missile which again could be used againt PRC. They worked with us with the Sukhoi-30MKI and T-90 projects. The list is long. They are leasing us the Shchuka-B N-submarine. They were willing to give us the cryogenic engine for our GSLV until the US stepped in and pressurised them not to. What do you say about that, eh? Yes, we do have an attachment with the Russians, not as much as we had with the USSR, but we do have it. Why not?
 
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JayATL

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I think there is one thing you can do. Before I tell you that, let me share my experience.

Many Americans say that US and India are allies. I correct them by saying that we are friends but not allies and we will not be in the foreseeable future. I tell them, you gotta pick either Pakistan or India, but you cannot pick both. If you ditch Pakistan, we may consider. Most of them, out of conviction or politeness, pick India over Pakistan. The US Foreign Department does not think so.

So this is what you can do. Help build public opinion among influential people in the US so that the US ditches Pakistan, takes out their nukes and simply stays neutral when we steamroll into Pakistan and dismember it. That would be a great help and we shall be grateful to you (and all others in this effort), if it sees fruition.

Don't forget Pakistan has been hiding OBL.


You could be right, but do we have the details to compare which one is better of the two? Unless we have the details, why harp on?


Personally, I am open to US-India join development. I would judge every joint-project neutrally. Whether with the Russians, French, US ... we will go with that project where we get the maximum knowledge, as simple as that.


They are also providing weapons to India that we could use against PRC. They worked with us and successfully completed the BrahMos missile which again could be used againt PRC. They worked with us with the Sukhoi-30MKI and T-90 projects. The list is long. They are leasing us the Shchuka-B N-submarine. They were willing to give us the cryogenic engine for our GSLV until the US stepped in and pressurised them not to. What do you say about that, eh? Yes, we do have an attachment with the Russians, not as much as we had with the USSR, but we do have it. Why not?
Personally I don't get this- why would US attack Pakistan for India. Why does India not fight its own battles? And this misconception that US are helping Pakistan because it wants to out of some alliance-- they are forced to. They are trying to avoid any attacks on their land. It's not a choice it's a necessity for the US.

and re: Russia, so they doing whats best fro them would you say? why should india not do the same then,,,
 

mayfair

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and re: Russia, so they doing whats best fro them would you say? why should india not do the same then,,,
That's exactly what we are doing.

It suits us to buy P8I, AH-64, C-130J and C-17 from the Americans

It suits us to procure or co-develop PAK-FA, SU-30MKIs, MiG-29Ks, T-90, Nerpa, Brahmos etc with Russia

It suits us to cooperate with Israel on Phalcon, Missile defence, avionics and host of other areas

It suits us to cooperate with the European and the French from advance combat aircraft
 
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Known_Unknown

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JayATL, it's not about weapons. It's about strategic autonomy. If India bought all it's weapons from the US, and the US stopped delivery of spare parts during an India-Pak war (as has happened just a decade ago with the Navy Sea King helis), it may put India in quite a difficulty.

Now, since you're such a well-wisher of India, you wouldn't want India to lose a war with Pak, due to US betrayal, would you? Something about putting all your eggs in one basket, you know?
 

JayATL

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JayATL, it's not about weapons. It's about strategic autonomy. If India bought all it's weapons from the US, and the US stopped delivery of spare parts during an India-Pak war (as has happened just a decade ago with the Navy Sea King helis), it may put India in quite a difficulty.

Now, since you're such a well-wisher of India, you wouldn't want India to lose a war with Pak, due to US betrayal, would you? Something about putting all your eggs in one basket, you know?
This is a JSF program where India would be a partner and not buyer. Partners don't get supplies stopped... It's a completely different contract and terms and also includes several other countries. If the US were to do so? Then forget being sued, they lose creditability to ever have anyone partner with them. Which is a greater risk to their image, pocket and strategic outlook.

Another thing- understands this, i keep hearing about what if US stops its supplies...? The US is not looking at India as a onetime customer- the US is hedging all in that India is what guarantees both India and US's influence in Asia. This much more than just a deal...
 

pmaitra

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Personally I don't get this- why would US attack Pakistan for India. Why does India not fight its own battles? And this misconception that US are helping Pakistan because it wants to out of some alliance-- they are forced to. They are trying to avoid any attacks on their land. It's not a choice it's a necessity for the US.

and re: Russia, so they doing whats best fro them would you say? why should india not do the same then,,,
MayFair already gave you an excellent answer to your second question.

That's exactly what we are doing.

It suits us to buy P8I, AH-64, C-130J and C-17 from the Americans

It suits us to procure or co-develop PAK-FA, SU-30MKIs, MiG-29Ks, T-90, Nerpa, Brahmos etc with Russia

It suits us to cooperate with Israel on Phalcon, Missile defence, avionics and host of other areas

It suits us to cooperate with the European and the French from advance combat aircraft
Now I shall add more.

Personally I don't get this- why would US attack Pakistan for India. Why does India not fight its own battles?
Why did the US pressurise India not to attack Pakistan when this happened (see below)? Why did the US not stay neutral then?

Israelis offered to bomb kahuta the same way they bombed iraq in 1980s, all they asked for was refuelling facilities from indira gandhi. she refused, now we have to live with a "Delux Afghanistan" (Pakistan is afghanistan with nukes)!

For jehadis and taliban, getting hold of Pakistan and its nukes is "Delux Afghanistan"!
And this misconception that US are helping Pakistan because it wants to out of some alliance-- they are forced to. They are trying to avoid any attacks on their land.
They are helping, perhaps not with the intention of harming India but the effect is the same, it is harmful to India. Also, they won't normalise relations with Iran and open a safer supply route to Afghanistan. They have picked a fight with the Russians with the missile shield and God knows what's up with that supply route. Go figure.

It's not a choice it's a necessity for the US.
Fighting a Cold War even after Gorbachev's peace initiatives and dismantling of the Warsaw Pact, yearning to give the Soviets their Vietnam, supplying weapons to the Mujahideen, helping ISI setup terrorist training camps in Pakistan, etc., were all choices made by the US.

Also, supporting Pakistan during India's 1971-72 War forced India to enter into a military alliance with the USSR. Traditionally, we have always been non-aligned.

The present carries the baggage of the past.
 

JayATL

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MayFair already gave you an excellent answer to your second question.



Now I shall add more.



Why did the US pressurise India not to attack Pakistan when this happened (see below)? Why did the US not stay neutral then?





They are helping, perhaps not with the intention of harming India but the effect is the same, it is harmful to India. Also, they won't normalise relations with Iran and open a safer supply route to Afghanistan. They have picked a fight with the Russians with the missile shield and God knows what's up with that supply route. Go figure.



Fighting a Cold War even after Gorbachev's peace initiatives and dismantling of the Warsaw Pact, yearning to give the Soviets their Vietnam, supplying weapons to the Mujahideen, helping ISI setup terrorist training camps in Pakistan, etc., were all choices made by the US.

Also, supporting Pakistan during India's 1971-72 War forced India to enter into a military alliance with the USSR. Traditionally, we have always been non-aligned.

The present carries the baggage of the past.
Oh phuck - we are back to the 40 years ago in "1971 you sent a carrier" (but conveniently forgetting did nothing to stop East Pakistan from being snatched away) argument again! We are back to dictating to the US to ignore it's enemies because somehow somebody died and said US you must have your Iran policies only after you check if it works for India- phuck your own security concerns on Iran... but did you check with India first? Or when way back 30 years ago you went into an afghan situation and paid ISI to train mujahedeen to attack USSR. Let's hold you to those standards"¦today.

But, when it comes to the British , who phucked, plundered, raped India. India is hey " you so my buddy now" ... You exert opinions of decades old policies that are not in place anymore to define US relationship today. But the real bastards who did "actionable" things to India are A-Okay to ask for Eurofighters or have "warm relationships" with.

You never been non-aligned in real terms. India had bases run by russians(unoffically) way before 1971. Find some senior old military timers and they will tell you how close USSR was on Indian soil.

after all this-- you keep relenting that India can't fight it's own battles...
 
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pmaitra

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Oh phuck - we are back to the 40 years ago in "1971 you sent a carrier" (but conveniently forgetting did nothing to stop East Pakistan from being snatched away) argument again! We are back to dictating to the US to ignore it's enemies because somehow somebody died and said US you must have your Iran policies only after you check if it works for India- phuck your own security concerns on Iran... but did you check with India first? Or when way back 30 years ago you went into an afghan situation and paid ISI to train mujahedeen to attack USSR. Let's hold you to those standards"¦today.
Fine then, let the US stand by its own decision whether to open a dialogue with Iran or not and let us decide whether we will get Russian, European or US made planes. We are already getting P8I, AH-64, C-130J and C-17 from the Americans. Be happy with that. We are free to get from the Brits, French and the Russians, and we are not going to check with the US just as US will not check with India about Iran. Get that straight.

But, when it comes to the British , who phucked, plundered, raped India. India is hey " you so my buddy now" ... You exert opinions of decades old policies that are not in place anymore to define US relationship today. But the real bastards who did "actionable" things to India are A-Okay to ask for Eurofighters or have "warm relationships" with.
C'mon dawg! Let us decide what we feel is the best for us. Stop acting like a used-car salesman.

You never been non-aligned in real terms. India had bases run by russians(unoffically) way before 1971. Find some senior old military timers and they will tell you how close USSR was on Indian soil.
Provide quotes. Oh, BTW, we also had CIA bases and agents in India who were training anti-PRC Tibetan volunteers. Your point is?

after all this-- you keep relenting that India can't fight it's own battles...
Awww, how cutie dudie you are Jay! It was the USA and USSR who could not fight their own battles but went along with their shadow boxing over Germany (East and West), Cuba, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea (North and South). Guess why? They both had nukes. Same thing applies here between India and Pakistan provided you apply your brains in understanding situations (instead of thinking how you can slap someone's cigar out of his mouth).

why dont you stick to issuing " are we going to be slaves , huh uuh" topics. you would not know a source from TOT if it came and slapped that cigar out of your mouth...
 
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JayATL

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Fine then, let the US stand by its own decision whether to open a dialogue with Iran or not and let us decide whether we will get Russian, European or US made planes. We are already getting P8I, AH-64, C-130J and C-17 from the Americans. Be happy with that. We are free to get from the Brits, French and the Russians, and we are not going to check with the US just as US will not check with India about Iran. Get that straight.


C'mon dawg! Let us decide what we feel is the best for us. Stop acting like a used-car salesman.


Provide quotes. Oh, BTW, we also had CIA bases and agents in India who were training anti-PRC Tibetan volunteers. Your point is?


Awww, how cutie dudie you are Jay! It was the USA and USSR who could not fight their own battles but went along with their shadow boxing over Germany (East and West), Cuba, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea (North and South). Guess why? They both had nukes. Same thing applies here between India and Pakistan provided you apply your brains in understanding situations (instead of thinking how you can slap someone's cigar out of his mouth).
first this not about buying only this and that - its about what best for India's military. thats the premise of this/my argument.

second- you are quick to note USSR having nukes and US not doing anything. well, other than " Oh that pesky- bankrupting them " But lo behold that same argument does not hold when you made your naive comment about US needs to attack/ eliminate pak's nuclear assets. how the phuck do they do that? by requesting a " pretty please". You want them to fight your battles - fact...pffft

Third- CIA was in tibet and not govt approved as USSR was on the Indian soil. Yeah their covert assets could have been in India, so are pakistani ISI's assets...does not mean they are indian govt approved. My point is and was crystal clear- this non aligned status is not worth the paper it is written on... in reality India was in USSR's court

best one I've heard to date is- you need to drop helping pakistan even as it risks your national secruity - but wait not before you allow us into afghanistan , thanks to you US. then we could be" allies" and not just "friends"...
 
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pmaitra

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first this not about buying only this and that - its about what best for India's military. thats the premise of this/my argument.
I heard you. We all did. You got your response. What's new?

second- you are quick to note USSR having nukes and US not doing anything. well, other than " Oh that pesky- bankrupting them " But lo behold that same argument does not hold when you made your naive comment about US needs to attack/ eliminate pak's nuclear assets. how the phuck do they do that? by requesting a " pretty please". You want to them to fight your battles...pffft
What? What are you talking about? I said the US and USSR did not fight their own battles, but their proxies had to. This is because both the USA and USSR had nukes. The same thing applies between India and Pakistan.

MAD - no not you; it means Mutually Assured Destruction.

Third- CIA was in tibet and not govt approved as USSR was on the Indian soil. Yeah their covert assets could have been in India, so are pakistani ISI's assets...does not mean they are indian govt approved. My point is and was crystal clear- this non aligned status is not worth the paper it is written on... in reality India was in USSR's court
I am not talking about whether CIA was in Tibet or not; I am talking about CIA being in India with the approval of the Indian Government. You have been in DFI for quite a while; go to the relevant thread and educate yourself. Other than that, whatever is crystal clear to you is not to me. We were non-aligned and adopting a socialist economy does not make us a USSR-ally. Even Yugoslavia was communist, but they were not part of the Warsaw Pact.

best one I've heard to date is- you need to drop helping pakistan even as it risks your national secruity - but wait not before you allow us into afghanistan , thanks to you US. then we could be" allies" and not just "friends"...
You should try writing erotic novels like Michael Collins and you could, perhaps, do better. Will the US at least stay neutral if India decides to wipe out Pakistan from the face of the earth? Let's hear you the wise one!
 

Yusuf

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A little more decorum can help. An Indo American who has Indian interests in mind while also being loyal to the country of his residence which is highly appreciable. Just cutting down getting personal and condescending behavior will keep the debate and forum healthy.
 
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