Chinese Dissident Wins Nobel Peace Prize

amoy

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Well, when I say 'grassroots' it refers to those 'ordinary' folks walking on the streets who mostly speak Cantonese.

Yes nowadays the educated more or less know English as a second language. But it's a different thing when judges, attorneys... were speaking (and some judges were Britons !!) throughout the legal process with procedures, documents, filings in English.

Before 1997 there was no so-called 'democracy' in HK. Chinese were out of politics except a few elites and focusing on 'business'. But before the handover to China, the last governor Chris Pattern suddenly realised the importance of 'democracy' and started to reform the electoral system for the Legistative Council i.e. 100% directly elected from constituencies.


+++
the point - be fact based please
 

dove

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Iron fist on enemnies is the greatest mercy to the kind people.
Did the kind people say this or did the iron Fist say it for them ? Please let's not pretend that CCP/PLA gives a damn about the ordinary chinese people who they keep imprisoned in this massive jail. If there was any semblence of good in CCP/PLA you would not be so afraid to let your citizens interact freely with rest of the world.



Big ass statements like that works only in places where no one dares reply back. On discussion boards like these it just makes one look like a shameless hypocrite trying to cover up your shameful deeds with fig leaves of grim dignity, and ending up looking utterly ridiculous.

If I'm holding a gun against your head, I can also make big noises and make you nod in agreement. Dare to take the gun away, and you will see how the ordinary chinese peasants will kick all your CCP asses into the south china sea.
 
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dove

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Earlier when you go to www.yahoo.cn and typed "falun gong" you used to suddenly get an error where the server drops connection. Now that has been fixed and they have listed articles condemning Falun Gong.

But now, try searching for "nobel prize liu" and you get the message below.

--------
This webpage is not available.

The webpage at nobel prize for liu_雅虎网页搜索 might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new web address.

More information on this error
----------------

Shame on China. The big superpower has to use such silly tricks to maintain its power ? What kind of power is it if you have to be so scared of what people think ?

When do you say China will overtake US blah blah ? Right!! Dream on!!
 

dove

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Now it works for me too. I used to get repeated issues earlier with Falun Gong, while all the other searches used to go through. May be my browser was acting up, may be the chinese learnt to be more sophisticated.

I heard about it (the original falun gong block) from another forum where someone had posted this experience.

I'm assuming the badguy chap is just one ordinary chinese guy and not 'connected'. That would be cool.
 

badguy2000

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Liu once said that CHINA should be colonized for 300 more years in a interview in 1988,one year before June.4 1989.

here is the link
出错
 

lurker

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Ill just leave this here

Liu Xiaobo | Behind the great firewall of China

BEIJING: When news broke on Friday that the political reformer Liu Xiaobo had won the Nobel peace prize while serving the first year of an 11-year jail sentence, I was listening to a member of China's communist aristocracy tell me how he had recently been lured out of his home by a caller pretending to be a deliveryman.

''I don't have any money,'' he had protested, mistaking the motivations of the goons who had grabbed him, before they shoved him into a van and pulled a hood over his head.

Advertisement: Story continues below His long interrogations at an unknown location revolved around a short cryptic joke that some recipients had misinterpreted as serious intelligence, and which had fed a worldwide rumour that a senior party figure was about to die.

Others linked to that rumour had their houses ransacked and at least one privileged figure was treated to the full black-hood ritual.

My host was eventually returned to the same bustling Beijing pavement, opposite a bright pink luxury cosmetics shop. What does he remember most vividly about his ordeal? ''That hood really stank,'' he said.

If China's resurgent security apparatus can seem Kafkaesque, it can also be Orwellian. While talking incessantly of a ''harmonious society'', the Chinese state's kidnapping of its own citizens is becoming more common, not less. Just ask the lawyer Gao Zhisheng - if anyone can find him - or dozens and perhaps hundreds of nameless Tibetans and Uighurs whose disappearance is known only to close associates.

Or ask the leading Taiwanese scholar who had all his documents searched on arrival in China a fortnight ago, or other ethnic Chinese scholars who had no great interest in contemporary politics until they started being followed by black Audi cars.

As I sat in the privileged family's courtyard on Friday afternoon, the Herald phoned Liu Xiaobo's wife, Liu Xia. ''He won't get the prize,'' she had said, minutes before being proven wrong. She added: ''It's not convenient to accept an interview now, there are lots of police at my home.''

At 5pm, someone among the hordes of foreign journalists managed to stream the Nobel committee's decision to Liu Xia live. But she has not been seen or heard from since. As Liu Xia was listening to the news, the Herald rang Cui Weiping, a passionate and dignified film critic who had been involved in the same ''Charter 08'' manifesto for political reform that had landed Liu Xiaobo in jail.

''There is light,'' she said, before breaking into tears as the Nobel committee's statement was being read out in the background, apparently streaming from the committee's website, which had not been censored. Cui had compiled a large dossier of responses from leading Chinese intellectuals and found that many who had not believed in signing Liu Xiaobo's original Charter 08 were enraged by his incarceration.

''Hearing news of his sentence on the eve of 2010 I felt like we had returned to 1910,'' wrote the sociologist Li Yinhe, referring to the year before the revolution that ended imperial China.

I pedalled as fast as I could through the blanket smog back to the Herald office, where there was a message waiting from a contact in the Chinese security apparatus asking for my ''opinion on Liu Xiaobo''. I tried to watch CNN, which had been blacked out, as had the BBC.

China Central Television and Hong Kong's Phoenix TV - which claims to be independent - were broadcasting as if nothing had happened. The Chinese-language internet was already flooded with jubilant commentary before being quickly ''harmonised'', as Chinese netizens like to say.

After filing for Saturday's paper, I sent a text to the journalist Paul Mooney who had been following the story closely. ''I've been detained by the police for reporting on a celebration,'' came his text in reply.

''They've held me for two hours because I didn't have my passport with me.'' About 20 political activists had gathered for a happy banquet and about twice that number of policeman took them all away. One policeman saw a large photo of Liu Xiaobo, and asked: ''Who is this?''

Behind the Great Firewall of China, it is now almost impossible to find a direct public reference to words like ''Liu Xiaobo'' or ''Nobel'' - except in reports that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has excoriated the decision makers. I wondered what the Premier, Wen Jiabao, would make of it all after his comment on CNN last week that ''freedom of speech is indispensable'' was itself deleted from the Chinese internet.
 

ajtr

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Beijing's muscle-flexing faces a pushback


Imperial edicts in medieval China typically ended by exhorting lowly subjects to "tremble and obey"; from all available evidence, the edicts had just the desired effect.In the modern era, however, China's muscular assertion of its recently acquired economic and political might to get the rest of the world to "tremble and obey" may have run its course and is beginning to face a global pushback, geostrategists and analysts told DNA.

Even the award of the Nobel Peace Prize for imprisoned Chinese political dissident Liu Xiaobo on Friday, despite brazen Chinese attempts to intimidate the prize committee, is "part of a larger pushback against China by the West and also allies in Asia," says Dr John Lee, research fellow at The Center for Independent Studies in Sydney and a Visiting Fellow at the Hudson Institute.

Pressures building up
That award, the citation for which noted that China's "new status" entailed "increased responsibility" and drew pointed attention to its breach of international agreements and provisions relating to political rights, compounds the pressures on China on other fronts arising from its continued undervaluation of its currency and its aggressive assertion of its territorial claims on its maritime and land borders, including with India, in recent months.

"It looks like the net around China is closing," says Jonathan Holslag, research fellow at the Brussels Institute of Contemporary China Studies and author of China and India: Prospects for Peace. "Clearly, there is a widening gap between how China is developing and how several other countries expect it to develop."

According to noted Chinawatcher Gordon Chang, that gap is leading the world "to run out of patience" with China. Even last year, when Liu had been nominated for the peace prize, which went instead to US president Barack Obama, "there was still a lot of hope of forward progress in China, but now people are starting to realise there won't be."

Lee sees two reasons for China's "muscular diplomacy" of recent times: after the global financial crisis of 2008, which accentuated the contrast between China's high-growth economy and the down-and-out debt-burdened economies of the West, "there were strong signs of hubris" among the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and the People's Liberation Army (PLA). "The PLA is playing a much greater role in setting strategic policy, and as China rises, the CCP is strengthening its hold on economic and political power, not relinquishing it."

And, adds Lee, "there's now a belief that the CCP will do whatever it takes to retain political and economic power within China, even if this is against the country's long-term interest.

Ascendance of hardliners
The nature of such a political system in China — and the ascendance of hardliners and the security apparatus in framing policy — is manifestly causing greater disquiet as China takes a bigger place on the world stage, points out Nicholas Bequelin, senior Asia researcher at Human Rights Watch.

And the fact that for the past few years, the human rights aspect of the Chinese political situation had been overlooked by the West - and even Japan, South Korea and India - may have emboldened hardliners in China, he adds. "At the end of the day, when the chips are down, Chinese leaders knew that the US and Europe would sidetrack human rights issue and talk about trade and economic interests."

Now that it's facing a global pushback, how will China respond? "China will diplomatically retreat somewhat — although its currency policy will not change," reasons Lee. As a "strategically located rising power" with "very poor soft power" leverage, China is "immensely distrusted by all the major powers." And as a result, Beijing will have no choice but to "pull back the rhetoric and diplomacy a little even if its objectives remain unchanged."

Chang too reckons that beyond the initial intemperate lashing out, China will momentarily retreat, and instead turn on the 'charm offensive mode'. "If they see everybody giving them a hard time, they're going to put on their smiling face again." But, he cautions, "we need to keep in mind that the smiling face is just a tactic."

How China's relation with the world plays out will depend on whether China continues to rise under its authoritarian model, reckons Lee. "If it does, there will be an intensification of structural tension between China and the democratic world."
 

roma

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his last name xiaobo is pronounced something like jiaobao the pm of china ? wen jiaobao ? siomilar pronounciations for a non-chinese like me -

but anyway does anyone have the reference to china's reaction - i heard it the other day and they were just furious -

would be great to read the text .

T I A anyone .
 

Iamanidiot

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Well, when I say 'grassroots' it refers to those 'ordinary' folks walking on the streets who mostly speak Cantonese.

Yes nowadays the educated more or less know English as a second language. But it's a different thing when judges, attorneys... were speaking (and some judges were Britons !!) throughout the legal process with procedures, documents, filings in English.

Before 1997 there was no so-called 'democracy' in HK. Chinese were out of politics except a few elites and focusing on 'business'. But before the handover to China, the last governor Chris Pattern suddenly realised the importance of 'democracy' and started to reform the electoral system for the Legistative Council i.e. 100% directly elected from constituencies.


+++
the point - be fact based please
Ohimalaya any good literature in english about pre-1997 Hong Kong polity .I want to check if it was similar to the british set-up in pre modern India.I think both nimo-cn and Tarun Raju are right but there is a vaccum about understanding each other
 

Iamanidiot

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Ohimalaya was the polity say like one-third are nominated by the governor general ,another one-third by chambers of commerce , another half by workers class is it that kind of polity.If you are referring to this kind of polity this certainly used to exist in pre-modern india a method of divide et impera(divide and rule) by the brits one of the very reasons for partition and it took an individual like Gandhi to arise to heal these scars.An individuals who will be remembered as an equal to jesus christ,Buddha and Ashoka
 

nimo_cn

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So the real power is with the democratically-elected legislature
+++++++++++++++

Tarunraju, guess u have no idea abt HK 'democracy' prior to 1997. Most members of Legislative Council were NOT elected but appointed by the Governor which was not a 'rubber stamp' at all. And most key positions were held by Britons despite that 97% of population was Chinese. Even in a court the official language is ENGLISH but majority of local residents (grassroots) knew little English (in that case how could civil rights be guaranteed?)

Obviously u beautify pre-1997 HK only in an attempt to show in contrast how HK or China is short of 'freedom'. But your arguments really don't hold water.

Liu Xiaobo says "China shall also be colonized for 300 years". That hardly appeals to Chinese though perhaps suiting Indians well.
Sometimes i really feel frustrated when debating with some Indians over Chinese affairs.

They either have no idea about what they are talking about, or show their blind eyes to the plain facts.

Colonialism is evil, that is why Indian managed to get rid of it, but when it comes to HK, it can be justified.

I guess they never understand the old saying "己所不欲,勿施于人".
作为他们的邻居,我真不知道我们是应该感到庆贺,还是应该感到悲哀。
 
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pmaitra

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Colonialism is evil, that is why Indian managed to get rid of it, but when it comes to HK, it can be justified.
Good that you concede colonialism is evil. So, when are the Tibetans and Uighurs getting freedom from Han Chinese colonial rule? Do you support that?
 

Iamanidiot

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PMaitra I won't speak for Tibetians but it is better for Uighurs under some boot.In this case the Chinese are doing a service to us.Central Asia is known as the graveyard of empires
 

nimo_cn

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Ohimalaya any good literature in english about pre-1997 Hong Kong polity .I want to check if it was similar to the british set-up in pre modern India.I think both nimo-cn and Tarun Raju are right but there is a vaccum about understanding each other
I only reply to this part.

I will never understand Indian's stance over colonialism. Because i think being ruled by aliens is the worst thing that may have happened to a nation, even though it may bring in some benefits(some Indian member's words). The harm caused by colonialism to nation is immeasurable.

I will never forgive a person who is trying to promote colonialism in China.
 

pmaitra

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PMaitra I won't speak for Tibetians but it is better for Uighurs under some boot.In this case the Chinese are doing a service to us.Central Asia is known as the graveyard of empires
You're right. Unfortunately, China is a greater threat for India at the moment and as long as it supports Pakistan and continues it's occupation of Indian territories, I think we should keep China under control. One way to do this is to keep it bogged down with Tibet and East Turkestan (the Chinese call it Xinjiang).

I would extend my full support to China is it did the following:
  • Handed back Aksai Chin to India.
  • Handed back Shaksgam Valley to India.
  • Gave up it's claims on Arunachal Pradesh.
  • Stopped supporting Pakistan in to-to.
 
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pmaitra

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Are you ready for a troll?
I am not ready for anything but an answer to my question. I repeat my question again.

When is China going to give freedom to the non-Chinese regions that it is currently occupying (Tibet and East Turkestan)? Please answer to the point so that your earlier claims of being opposed to colonialism are really true in spirit and faith.


I only reply to this part.

I will never understand Indian's stance over colonialism. Because i think being ruled by aliens is the worst thing that may have happened to a nation, even though it may bring in some benefits(some Indian member's words). The harm caused by colonialism to nation is immeasurable.

I will never forgive a person who is trying to promote colonialism in China.
That is exactly what the Tibetans and Uighurs are going through.
 

Iamanidiot

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You're right. Unfortunately, China is a greater threat for India at the moment and as long as it support Pakistan and continues it's occupation of India, I think we should keep China under control. One way to do this is to keep it bogged down with Tibet and East Turkestan (the Chinese call it Xinjiang).

I would extend my full support to China is it did the following:
  • Handed back Aksai Chin to India.
  • Handed back Shaksgam Valley to India.
  • Gave up it's claims on Arunachal Pradesh.
  • Stopped supporting Pakistan in to-to.
Once you squash Pukes a lot of Chinese problems will dissappear there are bigger fish for the Chinese to Fry than India .China has lot of internal issues than us and they are not exactly blessed with a great neighbourhood
 

pmaitra

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Once you squash Pukes a lot of Chinese problems will dissappear there are bigger fish for the Chinese to Fry than India .China has lot of internal issues than us and they are not exactly blessed with a great neighbourhood
Again, you're right. However, that doesn't change the status quo of the Chinese occupation of Indian territories and I, personally, am uncomfortable with it.

China is/was in conflict over territory and territorial waters with most of it's neighbours, including USSR, Russian Federation, Tajikistan, Kyrgyztan, Japan, Vietnam and India.
 

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