Chinese defence budget set to double by 2015 !!

[Adux]

I see my flag has been changed to China without my consent. OK, i don't have a problem with that as I am a person of chinese ancestry and generally I take China's side in most discussions. I just hope that the same applies to all members including a certain big-mouth indian who likes to hide under a french flag.

You little chicom, behave.....

 

[J20!]

I wonder if Vietnam had bigger budget than US when the latter got defeated ?

China spends more on internal defense than on external threats.

Who's the real enemy of PRC? Foreign countries or its own people ?

Again you twist and turn to avoid the truth. India is in no position to "annihilate" China as one poster put it. And second, the internal defence bugdet is not part of the 119 billion defence budget as some here misconstrue, so I fail to understand how it factors into this discussion...

 

[nrj]

Again you twist and turn to avoid the truth. India is in no position to "annihilate" China as one poster put it.

I speak for myself. And you can not assure said situation to be otherwise.

And second, the internal defence bugdet is not part of the 119 billion defence budget as some here misconstrue, so I fail to understand how it factors into this discussion...

Last year's stats -

* To spend $95 bln on public security, $92 bln on military

UPDATE 2-China internal security spending jumps past army budget | Reuters

Jasmine revolution made PRC wet its pant fearing another Tienanmen & increased internal sec budget to record high.

 

[J20!]

Oh, So sad you cant buy any toys, because nobody like you stupid chicoms. We are holding on to South Tibet, come get it. You little chicom, I dare ya. I cant wait for India burn you ----s down.

Sitting there in your imagined world were india is all powerful is severely clouding your judgement.
True world powers depend on themselves for their defence needs, China has come a long way in its quest for self sufficiency, whilst India lacks the knowhow to even field a light weight fighter after decades of trying...

 

[J20!]

I speak for myself. And you can not assure said situation to be otherwise.



Last year's stats -



UPDATE 2-China internal security spending jumps past army budget | Reuters

Jasmine revolution made PRC wet its pant fearing another Tienanmen & increased internal sec budget to record high.

I appreciate the attempt to sway the topic of discussion, but I'll ask again, What does China's internal security budget have to do with its actual defence budget?

 

[nrj]

I appreciate the attempt to sway the topic of discussion, but I'll ask again, What does China's internal security budget have to do with its actual defence budget?

If at all my last 3 posts were not self-explanatory and the link title was incomprehensible, the point was that China spends more on internal security than external defense meaning the state is internally more unstable than compared to outside threats.

 

[nrj]

China's security drive sows its own seeds of unrest

As Beijing pumps more money and resources into its domestic security apparatus, analysts warn that the increased emphasis on 'stability preservation' could actually lead to more social unrest

The village of Wukan waits surrounded by what will be one of Chinese President Hu Jintao's (胡錦濤) most far-reaching, yet contested legacies: A vast buildup of the domestic security apparatus that critics say feeds the discontent it was designed to defuse.

Riot police penning in the people of Wukan, Guangdong Province, who have protested for a week about farmland seized for development and the suspicious death of a village organizer, form one part of Hu's drive for "stability preservation" that reaches from dissidents detained in China's capital to restive corners of the countryside.

Since February, Hu has redoubled the urgency of his campaign to strengthen "social management" and pre-empt unrest before he retires from the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) leadership late next year and from the state presidency shortly after that.

"When we look back, the defining feature of Hu Jintao's era will be stability preservation. That will be the term through which his era is remembered. It will be his legacy," said Cui Weiping (崔衛平), a 55-year-old dissident-writer in Beijing, who lives monitored by a team of security police — another part of the security drive.

"Stability preservation is the party's defensive response to a society that is growing more fluid and assertive, but the system can't keep up with social change and public demands," Cui said.

"That's why they're so anxious despite all the security spending," she said, adding that she has become a prisoner to this push.

"Somebody controls my cellphone, my computer and Internet, when I can step outside and when I must stay in," Cui said.

In many ways, Wukan distills official fears. The village lies on a relatively prosperous and connected edge of the urbanizing coast, not a desperate corner of the interior.

Hu and other leaders have often warned officials to prepare for greater risks to party control as China's citizens become more mobile, more connected on the Internet, more wealthy and more vocal against inequality and corruption.

While Chinese policymakers in many areas tread water before the leadership succession, security officials led by CCP Central Political and Legislative Committee Secretary Zhou Yongkang (周永康) have issued directives and held meetings every week aimed at bolstering "social management," the party's phrase for defusing sources of discontent and enhancing controls.

Hu has also overseen a jump in spending on policing and law-and-order agencies, and expanded the powers of the domestic security hierarchy that yokes local officials' prospects for promotion to their success in pre-empting potential unrest.

"Strengthening and renovating social management is an urgent task to preserve social harmony and stability," Zhou told officials in September, according to Xinhua news agency.

He called the campaign — which has been given added urgency by upheavals rippling from the Arab world — a strategic task to "consolidate the ruling status of the party" and protect order.

"With the 18th Party Congress coming up and the handover of power so sensitive, they don't want any destabilizing incidents," said Xie Yue (謝岳), a professor of political science at Tongji University in Shanghai, who has studied "stability preservation" (weiwen) policies.

The congress convenes late next year.

"Social management entails taking the offensive to attack sources of unrest before they even break out," Xie said. "To some extent, it's a substitute for political reform."

Yet the push could sow the seeds of its own undoing and bring worse unrest in its wake by breeding corruption, deterring the government from embracing reforms, skewing spending and numbing officials to chronic discontent, said analysts who have studied the expansion of China's security state.

"[Chinese Vice President] Xi Jinping (ç¿’è¿‘å¹³) will take over a big system of internal security and surveillance, the biggest in the world, but it probably doesn't work in the long-run," said Borge Bakken, a sociologist at the University of Hong Kong studying the "social management" drive.

Xi is Hu's mostly likely successor.

"If everything is about social control, then it goes against good governance, but it might last a long time, simply because of the massive bureaucratic incentives now built into stability preservation," Bakken said.

HU REALLY WORRIED

China's leaders worry that the thousands of local protests and riots across the country every year could over time congeal into bigger and sustained movements that could truly challenge party power.

No official counts of the number of protests, riots and mass petitions have been released in recent years, but most estimates in government-sponsored studies put such "mass incidents" at about 90,000 a year in recent years.

In 2007, China had more than 80,000 "mass incidents," up from more than 60,000 in 2006, according to the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. In 1993, the government counted 8,700, although shifts in definitions, counting methods and sheer official attention to unrest prevent strict comparisons.

Most citizens still focus their ire on specific grievances and the local officials they hold responsible for them. However, party leaders' worries that grassroots discontent might congeal into political opposition have been magnified by uprisings against authoritarian governments across the Arab world.

The Wukan villagers' demands for a return of their former farmland have been mixed with some calls for democratic village elections — a sign of politicization that could further alarm party officials.

Hu gathered together senior party officials in February and set out his plans for a campaign to overhaul "social management" and ensure government control does not flounder in a fast-changing society.

Hu's message — delivered in the opaque words of party doctrine — was that rising prosperity would not automatically win the government support. On the contrary, the rapids of economic change could embolden citizens and upend controls.

Since then, Hu's chief official in charge of domestic security, Zhou, has almost daily issued directives and speeches and attended meetings to lock in place strengthened "social management" as a policy priority.

"Hu Jintao seems to be just kind of playing out time, so I was surprised to see him with such a strong initiative, which led me to the conclusion that the leadership really is quite worried about this," said Joseph Fewsmith, a professor of Chinese politics at Boston University in Massachusetts.

"People seem much more willing to challenge the authority of local government," said Fewsmith, who has written an unpublished paper on China's "social management" campaign. "They all seem to chip away at the legitimacy of the government."

"I think it means they're hunkering down and they're not going to compromise and pursue the sorts of political reform their critics say they need to do," Fewsmith said.

PUBLIC SECURITY BOOM

A big part of Hu's answer to these worries is displayed on Beijing's central thoroughfare, Changan Avenue: The Chinese Ministry of Public Security — a hulking symbol of the power of the domestic security system, which was finished several years ago and is larger than the nearby parliament building.

After Hu first succeeded Jiang Zemin (江澤民) as party leader in late 2002, he and Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao (溫家寶) encouraged hopes among some that they might seek to defuse smoldering social tensions by measured political relaxation and legal reforms.

However, since 2007, their populist gestures have become increasingly overshadowed by the push to expand domestic security spending, stifle dissent and deter the tides of petitioners traveling to Beijing in the hope that central officials will heed their complaints about land seizures, corruption and police abuses.

"China has always been a heavily controlled place, but what's new is the scale of it, the way in which the government has pushed this as an alternative to the emergence of a real civil society," Bakken said.

China's projected budget this year for domestic "public security" — a gauge of spending on "security preservation" —- outstripped the defense budget for the first time.

The 13.8 percent jump in China's planned budget for police, state security, armed civil militia, courts and jails brought planned spending on law and order items by the central and local governments to 624 billion yuan (US$98 billion) — more than twice Uruguay's GDP.

The Chinese Ministry of Finance said last month that the growing budget for public security was normal and included items other than "security preservation," Xinhua reported.

However, Xie said the ministry's own definitions and data showed the "public security" budget goes overwhelmingly to anti-riot forces, police and other law-and-order agencies.

"Denying that stability preservation is a large and growing outlay for the government simply isn't true," Xie said.

The spending jump has paid for more police, surveillance cameras, and anti-riot forces brandishing advanced equipment. More than 104 billion yuan of the public security budget went to the People's Armed Police, the domestic militia, Caijing magazine, a Chinese publication, reported last month.

Shanwei, the administrative area that oversees Wukan, follows that national pattern. Shanwei's domestic security budget has grown to 121 million yuan, an increase of 18 percent from last year, according to the local government's Web site.

That was more than 50 percent greater than the projected budget for education and about three times the budget for healthcare.

China's domestic security spending has been buttressed by steps to add clout to domestic security officials and their agenda under Zhou. In Shanwei and other areas, many local governments have opened "stability preservation" offices intended to monitor and defuse discontent.

Yet all that spending did not stop Wukan from becoming a stubborn holdout against the government.

The death in custody over a week ago of village protest organizer, Xue Jinbo (薛錦波), ignited fresh protests that forced police and officials to abandon the semi-urban village.

Even some officials and party-run publications have said that the pattern of "stability preservation" leading to further unrest is repeated far too often across China.

"By believing that stability takes absolute priority, and even paying no heed to stability preservation costs and ramifications, our organizational capacities become trapped in a vortex," a commentary in the CCP newspaper the Study Times said in August.

Central government demands that local governments pour more funds into "stability preservation" create additional burdens on local centers and divert spending from welfare programs that could better defuse public discontent, said Xie, who recently finished a book-length study of the issue.

"They have a motive to present a very grim outlook for public security in order to enhance their revenues and status, but that actually exacerbates the problems threatening social stability," Xie said of China's domestic security system.

REFUSING TO BE MANAGED

Xi will have to decide whether he wants to stick to this path.

Xi was in charge of security for the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing and shows no sign of wavering from the imperative to protect the CCP from any potential challenges.

However, Cui said the stability drive would ultimately buckle under the weight of costs, corruption and pent-up social pressures. Wukan could be a forerunner of what Xi must confront.

"I don't know how or when the era of stability preservation will come to an end, but when it does, there will surely be major changes," she said. "You can't manage a society that refuses to be managed."

China's security drive sows its own seeds of unrest - Taipei Times

 

[J20!]

If at all my last 3 posts were not self-explanatory and the link title was incomprehensible, the point was that China spends more on internal security than external defense meaning the state is internally more unstable than compared to outside threats.

But if I may ask you kind sir, how much do the Americans spend on internal defence? Less than 95 Billion? Their Department of Homeland Security alone was alocated 98 billion in 2011. Last time I checked the americans number at above three hundred million, the Chinese at over a billion and 300 million.


And whilst the Chinese budget includes the budgets allocated to "police, state security, armed civil militia, courts and jails " etc etc the Homeland security's budget does not include any of the afore mentioned. So dont make it sound like 95 billion has been alocated to millitary police to beat protesters of the jasmine Revolution, as that would be most untrue...


Now would you like to get back on topic or do you want to discuss China's disaster relif budget next? maybe its also larger than the defense budget as well...

 

[Dovah]

But if I may ask you kind sir, how much do the Americans spend on internal defence? Less than 95 Billion? Their Department of Homeland Security alone was alocated 98 billion in 2011.

While their defense budget was 750 billion. Their homeland security budget is seventh of their defence budge with an economy of 17 trillion. Your point is?

 

[nrj]

But if I may ask you kind sir, how much do the Americans spend on internal defence? Less than 95 Billion? Their Department of Homeland Security alone was alocated 98 billion in 2011. Last time I checked the americans number at above three hundred million, the Chinese at over a billion and 300 million.

Open a thread with American stats. Lets know about them. However, they do not have 'social management' budget.

And whilst the Chinese budget includes the budgets allocated to "police, state security, armed civil militia, courts and jails " etc etc the Homeland security's budget does not include any of the afore mentioned. So dont make it sound like 95 billion has been alocated to millitary police to beat protesters of the jasmine Revolution, as that would be most untrue...

Yes ofcourse not. They are splurging 95 billions on local audio surveillance, some harsh public suppressant methods or just soda-pop for police.

Definitely they are not spending money in crushing >80,000 mass incidents.

No official counts of the number of protests, riots and mass petitions have been released in recent years, but most estimates in government-sponsored studies put such "mass incidents" at about 90,000 a year in recent years.

In 2007, China had more than 80,000 "mass incidents," up from more than 60,000 in 2006, according to the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. In 1993, the government counted 8,700, although shifts in definitions, counting methods and sheer official attention to unrest prevent strict comparisons.

 

[J20!]

Open a thread with American stats. Lets know about them. However, they do not have 'social management' budget.




Yes ofcourse not. They are splurging 95 billions on local audio surveillance, some harsh public suppressant methods or just soda-pop for police.

Definitely they are not spending money in crushing >80,000 mass incidents.

I find it almost amusing that you keep deflecting the real issue of discussion here, a 120 billion dollar defence budget now, and a 240 billion dollar defence budget by 2015 despite the fact that China only spends 2.1% of its GDP on its millitary as opposed to 4.5% for the Americans and 2.7% by the Indians... if you wish to discuss the Chinese internal policing budget, then open a thread, it might be informative, but right now, not so much...

 

[Adux]

Chinese defense budget is against India, USA, Vietnam, Japan, Philippines, Taiwan and to some extent South Korea and Australia. The little chicoms are done for, they have chewed more than they can swallow. India's defense budget is just against Pakistan and China.

 

[no smoking]

Open a thread with American stats. Lets know about them. However, they do not have 'social management' budget.




Yes ofcourse not. They are splurging 95 billions on local audio surveillance, some harsh public suppressant methods or just soda-pop for police.

Definitely they are not spending money in crushing >80,000 mass incidents.

Of course, US gov doesn't need to pay their policemen.

Of course, the police were used to crush the "wall street occupation" activists and many other protests all around USA are just some volunteers.

 

[nrj]

I find it almost amusing that you keep deflecting the real issue of discussion here, a 120 billion dollar defence budget now, and a 240 billion dollar defence budget by 2015 despite the fact that China only spends 2.1% of its GDP on its millitary as opposed to 4.5% for the Americans and 2.7% by the Indians... if you wish to discuss the Chinese internal policing budget, then open a thread, it might be informative, but right now, not so much...

Thread is already there http://defenceforumindia.com/china/...security-spending-jumps-past-army-budget.html

There is nothing to glorify about China's defense budget if the internal instability demands more allocation than the cosmetic power projection measures highlighting something which may/may-not happen in 2015.

 

[J20!]

Chinese defense budget is against India, USA, Vietnam, Japan, Philippines, Taiwan and to some extent South Korea and Australia. The little dick chicoms are done for, they have chewed more than they can swallow. India's defense budget is just against Pakistan and China.

Almost all the nations you've mentioned there have China as their largest trading partner...
Would Japan risk their fragile economy with a war against China? And over what exactly would they attack China for?
Would Australia risk their booming minning sector?
Vietnam still recieves aid from China mind you, not something you'd do if you were about to attack is it?
South Korea attack China? even if they could, they'd have to go through N korea would they not?
I wont even mention the tiny speck that is the Philipines with their 80000 standing army and their heart-stopping defence budget of 1.4 billion.

I know that in your childish armchair general fanboy mind its Asia against China, But in reality, Asia(including India) feeds off China... Who do you think keeps Japan afloat? India? Get an education boy.

 

[JAYRAM]

~~~~~Please focus on topic than using immature flaming against each other.. ~~~~~~

We can compare china's defence budget against indian budget considering the various applications that they are used for..

India needs to suddenly double budget to provide modern manufacturing infra for mmrca. So i expect indian budget to show a little increase this time. what you say about it..?

 

[Ray]

China has a greater number of foreign nations along is vast borders. And since China is on the rise, it would be surprising if the neighbours would view it in a positive way.

Therefore, it is but natural that they will have to have a huge defence budget.

 

[J20!]

~~~~~Please focus on topic than using immature flaming against each other.. ~~~~~~

We can compare china's defence budget against indian budget considering the various applications that they are used for..

India needs to suddenly double budget to provide modern manufacturing infra for mmrca. So i expect indian budget to show a little increase this time. what you say about it..?

Both China's and india's defence budgets grow in relation to their economies, with 2.1% and 2.7% of GDP respectively. For india to double its defence budget in a year, it would either have to double its GDP in the span of a year, or double the percentage of GDP it allocates to defence from 2.7% to 5.4%.
I dont think India will double its d budget for the mmrca, but I do think that the defence budget will grow of its own accord relative to economic growth as time passes with percentage of GDP held constant...

 

[Adux]

Both China's and india's defence budgets grow in relation to their economies, with 2.1% and 2.7% of GDP respectively. For india to double its defence budget in a year, it would either have to double its GDP in the span of a year, or double the percentage of GDP it allocates to defence from 2.7% to 5.4%.
I dont think India will double its d budget for the mmrca, but I do think that the defence budget will grow of its own accord relative to economic growth as time passes with percentage of GDP held constant...

India doesnt have to you little twit, good for nothing squint eyes. All India has to increase its nuclear capacity expontenially, which it is currently doing. It wont take much more than 3 billion dollars a year. Simple, Easy and Productive. And you ----s can do jackshit. If you could have, you already would have.

 

[Adux]

Almost all the nations you've mentioned there have China as their largest trading partner...
Would Japan risk their fragile economy with a war against China? And over what exactly would they attack China for?
Would Australia risk their booming minning sector?
Vietnam still recieves aid from China mind you, not something you'd do if you were about to attack is it?
South Korea attack China? even if they could, they'd have to go through N korea would they not?
I wont even mention the tiny speck that is the Philipines with their 80000 standing army and their heart-stopping defence budget of 1.4 billion.

I know that in your childish armchair general fanboy mind its Asia against China, But in reality, Asia(including India) feeds off China... Who do you think keeps Japan afloat? India? Get an education boy.

Yes to all, it all depends when China snaps, and snap it will.
The US has turned its complete and full attention to the pacific for exactly that.
You can rest assured, any attack on taiwan, philippines or even Japan, will bring the US in, and will result in India inching on the border areas. You guys will be toast. No one country is ever to going to attack you, nobody needs. You will attack them, US and India are waiting just for that. You idiot, look at how some fishing boat incidents in Philippines and Oil expoloration incidents in Vietnam, brought so much pressure on china, when US jumped into help out Philippines and India - Vietnam grew closer. You are your own worst enemy. You are trying to do what Americans did 120 years ago, but unfortunately for you little ----s, the times have changed.

And behave on an Indian forum. You are lucky I am not the Mod, because I would have banned such condescending disrespectful enemy ----s a long time ago.