Chinese bullet train a bust

[Armand2REP]

Agreed, we don't have anything to showcase like busted bullet trains or empty ghost towns. We live within our means.

Nice one....

 

[niceguy2011]

Isn't that ironical that Chinese busted trains are still safer and faster than Indian trains?

We should compare with ourselves.

 

[nimo_cn]

Tell me, my Indian fellows.

Is it a fact that Chinese trains (HSR trains or normal trains) are faster and safer than Indian trains?

If the answer is yes, then how do you have the nerve to mock Chinese trains?

Chinese didn't say we have the best HSR, but we said we have the most HSR. If you think that is showcasing, so what? The fact remains that Chinese railway system is still better than Indian one, even if you think it is overhyped.

So are you gonna laugh at us because you think we overhyped our trains? Before you disparaging Chinese trains, isn't it a better idea for you to build something better than us?

It is like a bare-foot man laughing at another man's shoes because he thinks the shoes are not good enough, he must forget about his bare feet.

 

[nimo_cn]

We should compare with ourselves.

That is the only way to knock some fact into their brains.

 

[Daredevil]

We don't go to other countries forums and tom-tom that our Railways are the fastest and safest. It is the Chinese members go all over the forum world and boast about it and almost post them like a bot. It is us showing the mirror to these people and saying hey they are not as fast or safe as you claim them to be.

We are not the country who had recalled 54 bullet trains after safety concerns and we are not the country which has suspended 80% of the new HSR projects. It is China.

BBC News - China manufacturer China CNR recalls 54 bullet trains
China suspends railways projects - Telegraph

Just a reality check for Chinese members.

And we know how safe or unsafe our railways are. So we don't boast about them.

 

[Daredevil]

We should compare with ourselves.

In fact you have other standards like toxic stuff or environmental degradation to compare it to. Good luck there 8)

 

[Dovah]

It is like a bare-foot man laughing at another man's shoes because he thinks the shoes are not good enough, he must forget about his bare feet.

More like a well fed man mocking a hungry guy and choking on his own food.

 

[Armand2REP]

Tell me, my Indian fellows.

Is it a fact that Chinese trains (HSR trains or normal trains) are faster and safer than Indian trains?

If the answer is yes, then how do you have the nerve to mock Chinese trains?

Chinese didn't say we have the best HSR, but we said we have the most HSR. If you think that is showcasing, so what? The fact remains that Chinese railway system is still better than Indian one, even if you think it is overhyped.

So are you gonna laugh at us because you think we overhyped our trains? Before you disparaging Chinese trains, isn't it a better idea for you to build something better than us?

It is like a bare-foot man laughing at another man's shoes because he thinks the shoes are not good enough, he must forget about his bare feet.

Oh yes, it is not right for Indians to mock you but you mock them.

Actually, China did say it had the fastest and among the safest HSR networks in the world. Both of which turned out to be lies. So it is quite fair for CCP to be mocked for their total failure. Since Indians can't mock it, French easily can. Your rail isn't faster or safer than ours, it is built with rubber-bands and paper clips next to the TGV.

So the Frenchman wearing a pair of Louis Vuittons can mock Chinese knock-off whose sole falls out in 5 steps.

 

[niceguy2011]

Oh yes, it is not right for Indians to mock you but you mock them.

Actually, China did say it had the fastest and among the safest HSR networks in the world. Both of which turned out to be lies. So it is quite fair for CCP to be mocked for their total failure. Since Indians can't mock it, French easily can. Your rail isn't faster or safer than ours, it is built with rubber-bands and paper clips next to the TGV.

So the Frenchman wearing a pair of Louis Vuittons can mock Chinese knock-off whose sole falls out in 5 steps.

may be frenchman dont realize the LV their wearing is a knock-off.

 

[mattster]

Does China really need the HSR to be profitable ??

The Chinese system is based on massive Government subsidy for all major infrastructure projects.
Other than real-estate construction - are any of the private players involved in any major infrastructure projects ?

Take the Airlines for instance - China has many local airline companies which were started by state-owned companies, state-owned entities, etc. So what if they dont make money - the CCP just pumps money to keep it running until they are profitable !!

Take the local Chinese semiconductor industry - Fabs built at the cost of 3-5 billions a piece.
China's fabs like SMIC have been losing money since they were started but they are still open - how ??
Running a fab is not cheap, and guess what - even when they were losing money, they were still building more fabs ??

What does that tell you ??

The Chinese have a strategy of subsidizing key industries that they feel are necessary to become a high-tech power. They realize that they may lose a lot of money and are willing to take that loss so that they can catch up with others. They are also willing to wait for their people to catch up.

This is their strategy for all major hi-tech capital intensive investments be it semiconductor or HSR.....they are willing to pump money into these ventures until they can stand on their own even if it takes 10 or 15 years. They can make money from all the low-tech exports that they flood the global market with. They use that income to fund hitech industries and wait for them to become profitable.

As long as they can keep the low-tech exports humming, and flooding the world markets with it - I dont see why they cant keep doing what they are doing

I am not an economist - but can anyone tell me why this strategy wont work.

 

[Armand2REP]

Kind of hard to subsidise unsustainable debt levels. The Railway Ministry is already $320 billion in the hole, once these safety features and repairs are made it will be over $500 billion and we aren't even half way through the development plan. Once it is finished you are talking $1 trillion plus and a bottomless pit of red. China can't afford that kind of debt, they are already swimming in it.

 

[amoy]

The Chinese system is based on massive Government subsidy for all major infrastructure projects.
Other than real-estate construction - are any of the private players involved in any major infrastructure projects ?

Take the Airlines for instance - China has many local airline companies which were started by state-owned companies, state-owned entities, etc. So what if they dont make money - the CCP just pumps money to keep it running until they are profitable !!

Take the local Chinese semiconductor industry - Fabs built at the cost of 3-5 billions a piece.
China's fabs like SMIC have been losing money since they were started but they are still open - how ??
Running a fab is not cheap, and guess what - even when they were losing money, they were still building more fabs ??

Lots of infra is subsidized. At the end of the day the money is from taxpayers, but anyway it's better than being squandered elsewhere. And for HSR it takes a much longer period for amotization. Or the other projects like metros have revenue streams of commercial development of property in viccinity.

Many infra projects are often subcontracted in turn, including to private players.

As for airlines, most of them are publicly listed thus get financed to fare ups and downs also thanks to bank loans. Of course size/scale matters. A few smaller private airlines simply couldn't survive and went out of biz.

Semiconductor ind. - That SMIC mentioned, founded by Taiwanese went public in both New York Exchange and HKSE thus those loss-giving fabs also got funded but it's supposed to churn out a return for investors in the end.

That theory of low-end exports subsidizing hi-tech seems not always applicable, at least for semiconductors. By the way there're some 'hi-tech' players also making big money like Huawei (private), and ZTE (publicly listed).

 

[nimo_cn]

We don't go to other countries forums and tom-tom that our Railways are the fastest and safest. .

That is because you don't have HSR trains. If you have, you certainly go to other forums( PDF for example) and brag about them. I have been to other forums and have witnessed the way Indians talk about their achievements.

No Chinese members here said they are saftest, but we did mention that China created the record of the fastest operating speed of HSR. Recent accidents may reflect on the safety record of Chinese HSR trains, but they are still better than Indian trains.

If you take posting news about Chinese achievements here as boasting, then fine, I for one will refrain from posting such stuff unless being challenged.

It is the Chinese members go all over the forum world and boast about it and almost post them like a bot. It is us showing the mirror to these people and saying hey they are not as fast or safe as you claim them to be.

Negative news about China was constantly shared by Indian members before Chinese members came to this forum, I am pretty sure this thread is gonna exist whether we are here or not. So the purpose of this thread is not to show the mirror to Chinese members, but to fullfill your fragile ego after it was broken by the fact China is having HSR and India is stuck with its crippled raliway system.

We are not the country who had recalled 54 bullet trains after safety concerns and we are not the country which has suspended 80% of the new HSR projects. It is China.

Because you don't even has one bullet train to recall, and you don't one HSR project to suspend.

54 bullet trains being recalled, and 80%(inaccurate figure actually) of the new HSR projects being suspended, China still has more HSR than India, and in fact China has the most HSR.

BBC News - China manufacturer China CNR recalls 54 bullet trains
China suspends railways projects - Telegraph

Just a reality check for Chinese members.

And we know how safe or unsafe our railways are. So we don't boast about them.

Like I said, these two links, together with thread and this sub-forum, are not for the purpose of enlightening Chinese members or Indian members, but for the purpose of bashing and attacking China. As long as I am staying in this forum, I will defend my country and my HSR, even if once in while I may sound bragging.

 

[Daredevil]

That is because you don't have HSR trains. If you have, you certainly go to other forums( PDF for example) and brag about them. I have been to other forums and have witnessed the way Indians talk about their achievements.

No Chinese members here said they are saftest, but we did mention that China created the record of the fastest operating speed of HSR. Recent accidents may reflect on the safety record of Chinese HSR trains, but they are still better than Indian trains.

If you take posting news about Chinese achievements here as boasting, then fine, I for one will refrain from posting such stuff unless being challenged.

Good, then go to those forums and bash them if they are wrong. We have seen umpteen posts from several Chinese members who expressly come here to boast about the Bullet trains (or rather CCP achievements). We are only showing the mirror to this boasting.

Negative news about China was constantly shared by Indian members before Chinese members came to this forum, I am pretty sure this thread is gonna exist whether we are here or not. So the purpose of this thread is not to show the mirror to Chinese members, but to fullfill your fragile ego after it was broken by the fact China is having HSR and India is stuck with its crippled raliway system.

We are only reporting what is published in the open. If you object to this news go sue them or you would have already done if they were based in China. Our forum doesn't kow-tow to CCP or its minions to decide what should be posted and what should not be posted on this forum.

Yes, our crippled railways system carries four times more passengers than the super-duper Chinese Railways. And should I say, we are happy with what we have. We will improve it gradually and don't hurry it up to meet party deadlines. And we agree to all faults in our government/system and we will be the first to criticize them. We don't defend the the indefensible.

Because you don't even has one bullet train to recall, and you don't one HSR project to suspend.

54 bullet trains being recalled, and 80%(inaccurate figure actually) of the new HSR projects being suspended, China still has more HSR than India, and in fact China has the most HSR.

We don't have Bullet trains but we have Airlines which transports us at much higher speeds . We don't need HSR/Bullet trains as they are not feasible economically for long-distances which is what major cities are located farther away from each other.

If the figures are wrong please sue them or provide real figures.

Like I said, these two links, together with thread and this sub-forum, are not for the purpose of enlightening Chinese members or Indian members, but for the purpose of bashing and attacking China. As long as I am staying in this forum, I will defend my country and my HSR, even if once in while I may sound bragging.

You are welcome to see whichever way you like it to be.

 

[nitesh]

China's high-speed rail project runs out of steam

China's high-speed rail project runs out of steam - Telegraph

China's high-speed rail project, the jewel of the country's transport policy and one of the most impressive feats of engineering in the world, has run out of money and will be scaled back dramatically this year. Out of 23 current railway projects, some 70 per cent have been suspended, partly suspended, or delayed, according to the Chinese state media.

Meanwhile, an unnamed source told Dow Jones, the news agency, that only nine new railways would be commissioned this year, compared to 70 last year.

Having run up enormous debts, the Chinese Railways ministry is struggling to persuade banks to continue to finance its ambitions.

Ticket sales, meanwhile, have been slow on some lines as travellers baulk at the price.

"The ministry cannot bear so much debt. It has already taken 240 billion yuan (£24 billion) of loans and if it takes much more how can it pay the interest?" said Wang Mengshu, a member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering and senior consultant on the high-speed rail project.

"It can make profits of about 70 billion yuan on freight, but it is making no money on passenger travel. The government should cancel some of the debt, or invest some money itself rather than asking the banks to finance it," he added.

"A lot of projects are half-finished and while nine new lines have been approved this year, no one has started building them."

By the end of this year, China's high-speed network is likely to stretch to over 6,000 miles, transporting hundreds of millions of passengers in spacious long-nosed bullet trains. The 819-mile journey from Beijing to Shanghai, more than twice the distance from London to Edinburgh, now takes under five hours.

At the height of the high-speed boom, trains were being fitted with toilets that cost 1.2 million yuan (£120,000) a piece, and taps imported from Japan that cost 7,000 yuan, according to an investigation by Century Weekly magazine.

However, China's high-speed rail ambitions, which include tendering for the London to Birmingham high-speed link, took a blow last July when two trains collided, killing 40 and injuring almost 200.

A few months before the crash, China's Railway minister, Liu Zhijun was removed from his post and now faces corruption charges. Zhang Shuguang, the deputy chief engineer, who is also under investigation, reportedly paid £540,000 for a house in Los Angeles while on a monthly salary of a few hundred pounds.

Questions were raised about how much of the £190 billion high-speed rail budget had been siphoned off, and whether it would have an impact on the safety of the network.

In the wake of the crash, the Ministry found it increasingly expensive to borrow money, and no longer had access to the huge stimulus loans that were handed out in the wake of the financial crisis to keep the Chinese economy going.

"The Ministry's debts are now worth 60 per cent of its assets, and some analysts think they may rise to 70 per cent this year," reported the China Business Times.

 

[LurkerBaba]

This is not a generic "Chinese Bullet Trains" thread. Please read the title. Any more offtopic posts will invite infractions

 

[LurkerBaba]

There is already a thread on China's High Speed Rail. Use it http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/29131-chinas-high-speed-rail-network.html

This thread has a different purpose.

 

[huaxia rox]

i think the safty issue is the most paramount......on top of that i think prc is doing ok compared to many other developing countries in this field. although we need to keep learning from expreince of those developed nations but we cant slow down our high speed train development dramatically coz 1 of the very reasons is actually many chinese cant put up with some old style trains and waste too much time travelling in them any more.

 

[one]

Chinese people can thump their chest wrt the very very fast development that is of course the megalithic plus point and every one else have to appreciate it. One thing i have observed in them is they do not shy away from learning things from others. I don't think this would be a big issue for them they can overcome this problem.

 

[john70]

Congrats to Chinese for their feat.

In 1949, the Chinese Railway network added less than 22,000 km of poorly maintained, war-damaged lines. By 2008, its network touched 80,000 route km -- 36 per cent double-tracked and 35 per cent electrified.

During 1950-1980, China added 107 railway lines, stretching over 30,000 km, and has plans to extend the network to 20,000 route km by 2020 -- 50 per cent of it double-tracked and 60 per cent electrified.

With an audacious investment programme, Chinese Railway, like the country's most dramatic burst of wealth creation, inspires awe as much as envy.

The Chinese railways trailed Indian Railways technologically until the 1980s. In fact, even in 1990, its 24,800-km core network with an annual density of 30 million gross tonnes or more had largely 50 kg/m and 43 kg/m rails; as many as 55 per cent of the wagons were with plain bearings.

Until 1980, steam locomotive continued to remain its mainstay, carrying 76 per cent of its traffic. Today, Indian Railway, lost in shibboleths of systematic self-destruction, lags way behind Chinese Railway, and has no tangible strategy for growth.

On the other hand, Chinese Railway, now the world's second largest freight railway system and the largest passenger system, has by far the highest traffic density (passenger-km and tonne-km per km of line) -- it is 10.5 times the world average. Its output per locomotive, per freight car, per passenger coach is among the highest.