Chinese Armored Vehicles

Discussion in 'China' started by Kunal Biswas, Dec 16, 2011.

  1. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    last voice from CD is that it is even not 125 heat,but 105 heat,which adopt last tech and can penetrate 10 to 11 times their caliber on RHA
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  2. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    I bet CD will tell ' heck it was 40mm Grande launcher ' ..

    On serious note, reply to post number #11

     
  3. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    STOP GIVING THE WORLD'S MOST UNRELIABLE SOURCE FOR MILITARY DEVELOPMENTS. The 6 to 7 times is a CONSTANT. Don't you know what a mathematical constant is?

    Please explain your posts or give CD poster's sources
     
  4. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    No,

    :troll:

    Sigh. Must always expect crap like that to come from CD.
     
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  5. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    one all-round formula of tank kinetic rounds (long rod):

    T * (1/[email protected])^0.75 = (M/D^3) * (D/L)^0.3 *(v^2/U^2)

    T = plate thickness (cm)
    @ = angle
    u = constant
    L = penetrator length (cm)
    M = penetrator mass (g)
    D = penetrator diameter (cm)
    v = penetrator velocity (m/s)

    And the simpliest of course (kinetic energy)0,5 m*v^2
    Which in fact tells nothing about penetration, but it's very simple way to
    compare differences of impact energy (for instance bullets) and this shows the best impact of ammunition velocity compared to it's mass.

    Another very very simple estimation for heat (shaped charge) ammunition is
    penetration of 4-5x diameter of cone for older (example rpg-7) and 9-10 x diameter of cone to new atgm warheads.

    Problem with all formulas and calculations is massive amount of different variables, which can alter the result so much that the formula itself it's not good for anything. These are always very rough estimates, as the most important variables as
    -temperature of armor plate which it strikes and temperature tip of the penetrator (-30 C steel is very brittle compared to +30), what is the transition temperature of plate, what about tip ?
    -hardness of armour plate, different heat treatments, multi-layered/spaced armor composiition, different alloys of armour plate
    -density, ductility etc. of both materials (plate and penetrator)
    -how rapidly penetrator losing velocity (penetrator velocity through armour falls when penetrating any thicker plate)
    -Angle deviations during penetration
    -detailed composition of materials and alloys and shape in warhead, tip form, alloys used)
    -how penetrator penetrates the plate, there is abhasive wear on penetrator as it goes trough plate, it's dimesions will not be same through whole process
    -manufacturing even batch differnces in ammunitions, differnces in gun ballistics and properties in general
     
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  6. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    the 125( or 105) heat use Tungsten copper nickel alloy ,which is 38% more powerful than traditional copper
     
  7. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    Any HEAT round used BEFORE WW2 used plain copper. All HEAT rounds designed after 1955 have a copper alloy. ALWAYS (Except in Soviet Monkey ammo)
     
  8. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    Not my post, to post #11

     
  9. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    the given formulas are just rule of thumb to create working ball park estimates but they seem to hold up as my examples will show.

    1st generation HEAT

    AT-3 sagger 125mm Diameter 400mm penetration 400/125=3.2

    2nd generation HEAT

    AT-15 152mm diameter 1200mm penetration 1200/152=7.8

    Ke/11,000

    Assuming published reports of the M829A3 are correct at 900mm penetration of RHAe from an 8kg round (-2 kg* from the listed 10 for the sabot) traveling at 1555m/s

    4x1555^2=9,672,100 (9.7Mj) 9672100/11000=879mm

    Russia claims the 3BM48M developed for the T80UM2 Black eagle can penetrate 900mm RHAe and we know APFSDS fired from the 2A46M4 travels at1750m/s

    900x 11,000= 9,900,000 assuming a slightly lighter projectile (non-du) 6.5 kg traveling at 1750 3.25x1750^2= 9953125 (9.9mj)

    They claim the 3BM42M developed for the T-90Vladimir can penetrate 600-650mm of RHAe.

    650x 11000= 6,600,000 4.6kg penetrator 125MM APFSDS ROUNDS

    2.3x1750^2= 6737500 /11000= 612.5


    So as you see the formulas give a fairly reliable ballpark guesses for weapon performance

    * 2kg is the listed weight for the Russian 3BM42 spool sabot. The only publicly available 120-125mm spool style sabot/boot weight I could find
     
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  10. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    so all i want to say in a layman language is that picture of amour penetration posted by my Chinese friends is a bloody fake which i can make it with the help of a blow torch in my garage , end of discussion since i cannot convince you guys further :wave:
     
  11. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    Said the same too. Just used the words "welding equipment"

    ROFLMAO. Thanks AVERAGE INDIAN.
     
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  12. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    As for shaped charge liner, of course you can use a tungsten or even depleted uranium liner, in theory it can have greater penetration, but this is theory only. As far as I remember, during experiments with depleted uranium liners, it was discovered, that such dense liner, have problems with deformation and shaping process of the jet, this is why most popular is copper, and most promising future material is amoprhic alloy. It was discovered that glass is very interesting material for shaped charge liner, so amorphic alloy that have structure similiar to glass, can be real breakthrough, other applications for amoprhic alloys are armor and kinetic energy penetrators.
     
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  13. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    Some 125 mm Soviet rounds(1982) have DU liner but penetration improved much (by 200 mm then) but still 1988 copper lined round has comparable performance. So technology was much better 6 years later. :notsure:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/125_mm_smoothbore_ammunition#HEAT-FS
     
  14. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..


    :frusty:

    Each and every man respects China's unmatched history. We do not hate, aim to humiliate or troll you. If you think that we do, please tell us. Understand our feelings - We don't believe sources that issue propaganda. We wanted evidence. A solid source - nothing more - each time. This is a forum for discussion and not wild claims. Hope you understand and provide pictures and reliable sources (preferably un-biased ones)

    DFI :salute: you.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  15. CCTV

    CCTV Regular Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    Evidence is right on the picture, but need a expert to explain to us.

    ps. what to do with history?
     
  16. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    CCTV-ji,

    Have you seen a plate of armour?

    That is not armour plating and the damage was 99.9999 % surely done by blowtorch. There is a welding shop near my house. I showed the owner the picture and he immediately said "Blowtorch". That man has 20 years of experience in these matters and I take his word above the word of a random propaganda blog.
     
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  17. CCTV

    CCTV Regular Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..


    Blowtorch....., what kind of blowtorch can blow that far? 1m?

    Again, believe what you want to believe.
     
  18. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    It can be done slowly. Lines were marked. Don't you know what a blowtorch is? It melts stuff. You just have to switch it on and keep it above the whatever you want to burn.

    @moderator, getting sick of :bs:
     
  19. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    Lines must have been drawn with a pencil and then blowtorch was used to melt. Sigh. Should I have to explain every thing?
     
  20. shiphone

    shiphone Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Arjun vs Chinese Legacy tanks..

    this is a result of 'Static armor penetrating TEST'
    the data (1100mm?) is a result under ideal condition:
    1. no rolling disturbance
    2. Zero longitudinal velocity
    3. best height of burst setting
    .....
    some simple sketch map and illustration from the textbook for understanding how this "STATIC" test is done....
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    -----------------------------------
    in our textbook, we call the target as standard RHA target...and normally we use 2 kinds of RHA targets, the single one and the layered

    [​IMG]

    --------------------------------------------
    as I said:

    the AGM-114 Hellfire Achieved 1400mm in the same test...and improved BGM-71 TOW usded to claim the 900mm but...

    I thought that is the difference between the statics and dynamic armour-penetration tests...those 'Faked' (LOL, again ?) statement is really laughable...and once again, I have to tell some indian members: " the world outside india is quite big and colorful...'
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2013

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