Chinese Armored Vehicles

ice berg

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Mind does wander.

China classifies them as MBT, but you go hammer and tongs to prove the impossible i.e. that they are light tanks and go into a discourse of no value and irrelevance to prove the PLA wrong and the current mode of classifying tanks and ICVs.
LOL; what is the PLA designation of this MBT then since you insisted on calling it that? No source? Then dont blame people wondering whether your mind wanders.
 

Ray

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Mind does wander.

China classifies them as MBT, but you go hammer and tongs to prove the impossible i.e. that they are light tanks and go into a discourse of no value and irrelevance to prove the PLA wrong and the current mode of classifying tanks and ICVs.
LOL; what is the PLA designation of this MBT then since you insisted on calling it that? No source? Then dont blame people wondering whether your mind wanders.
Open your narrow vision and you will find it has been quoted from a Chinese source.
 

ice berg

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Open your narrow vision and you will find it has been quoted from a Chinese source.
I ask again where? and what PLA designation? There is none. End of story. But do keep posting type 96 MBT to support your claims though. :lol:
 

Ray

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I ask again where? and what PLA designation? There is none. End of story. But do keep posting type 96 MBT to support your claims though. :lol:
Open up the narrow vision which are like tank periscope of yours that prevents 100% situation awareness.

What do you want as the Gospel.

Xi Jumping's quote?

Sinodefence is no good for you?

I have no more time to waste on a Mai Dasiya who has no clue of the military and only understand to project China as a peaceloving entity with low grade weaponry!
 

ice berg

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Open up the narrow vision which are like tank periscope of yours that prevents 100% situation awareness.

What do you want as the Gospel.

Xi Jumping's quote?

Sinodefence is no good for you?
Since when is Sinodefence an official source? And where is your link? I asked for a PLA designation. The only answer I received from you is trolling and more trolling.

If you dont have one, just say no. Shouldnt expecting anything from you anyway.
 

Ray

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Fine.

Let us finish this discussion.

Show PLA source stating the Tanks mentioned are Light Tanks!

If you can't then we will have to go by what is the international classification of tanks being MBTs and the closest one can find to a Chinese source - Sinodefence.

I am not trolling. I have given links and issues.

You are merely talking out of a hat and trolling!

Since I am participating in this debate, I am wearing the poster's hat or else I would have told you long back that you are merely trolling and taken action.

You have given no military aspects that classify these tanks as Light Tanks.
 
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shiphone

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Two types of Light Tank in PLA army service: they will be replaced by New Light tank and ZTD-05 amphibious assault vehicle

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Type 62 serial Light tanks in PLA service(Active equipment)...the standard equipment of Tank Regiment in the motorized infantry division deployed in South China

21 tons...85mm Main gun...



the lastest improved varient..Type62G Light tank..105MM Main Gun..


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Type 63 serial Light amphibious tanks in PLA service(Active equipment)...the standard equipment of Tank Regiment in the amphibious Infantary Div formation and the PLA Marine force.

the early model of Type63 ...18.4 Tons...85mm Main Gun as well


the improved Type63...105mm model



Army coating


Marine coating
 
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Ray

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The Norinco Type 62 is a Chinese light tank developed in the early 1960s .

The Type 62 was primarily deployed in Southern China, where it remains in active service to this day. The most famous unit to operate the Type 62 light tanks is the recon battalion directly attached to the 43rd Army Group HQ, Guangzhou MR.

PLA used about two hundred tanks in Vietnam during this conflict and most of these were Type 62 light tanks. They suffered severe losses in combat due to tank's poor protection as the tank's thin armour could be easily penetrated by hand-held rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) launchers. An upgrade package was developed for the Type 62 soon after the war and was designated Type 62-I. Based on the improvement programs after the Sino–Vietnamese War the Type 62 was found to be too lightly armoured and too poorly armed to be used as a normal tank. Of the two hundred tanks which invaded Vietnam about half were knocked out, underscoring the Type 62's lack of armour and armament. Since then the Type 62 has been shifted to secondary duties in Southern China, such as reconnaissance, fire support and combat with enemy lightly armoured vehicles.

Type 62G (G stands for Gai - "Improved") - Most recent Type 62 light tank upgrade with improved armour layout and original cast turret replaced by a new welded flat-plate turret which also incorporates an improved armour layout as well as four smoke grenade dischargers on each side of the turret. It is armed with a more powerful 105 mm rifled main gun with fume extractor in center of barrel, vertical stabilization system, primitive fire-control system, and night vision equipment. Adopted by Pakistan in Al-Zarrar and Al-Khalid tank.

Wiki

The tanks shown as being Light Tanks in Tibet are not these.
 

Ray

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The Norinco Type 63 is a Chinese amphibious light tank..

It is in many ways similar to the earlier Soviet PT-76 with a slight difference in the propulsion system.

This is a specialised tank in that it is for amphibious use.

India too had the PT 76 but is now obsolete.

This is not the type of tank shown as Light tank in Tibet.
 

shiphone

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LOL...someone's debate ability is quite funny...use what I told you then google something unreliable to educate me pretending an expert...save our time and the forum resource please...as we always said, everyone could edit the wiki.
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HighLand trial is important and obligatory for every model of chinese Armored Vehicles...without passing this trial, none of the new models could get the national certification...and this means every NEW model of Armored Vehicle can be deployed and fit for the combat condition in XiZhang (Tibet) area.

and I could tell you, at this moment the only model long term deployed in XiZhang is ZTZ96A ...but every year. different units from the whole country with their ZTZ99 serial ,ZTZ59D and other Armored Vehicles are deployed in this area for training ande exercise...we are not lack of such pix and news if you can read chinese...
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we have light tanks in formation and Army need new model to replace the old Type62...there is something under development and trial(actully what we saw is the winner. there is another failed model from some other team which seems better looking than this one...LOL)...as simple as that... I don't understand some member here are so unwilling to accept it... such Light Tank is not a big deal indeed...easy

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happend to see these pix... taken in 2011

ZTZ99A MBT (so called ZTZ99G2 doesn't exist)







ZBD04A IFV

 
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Ray

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LOL...someone's debate ability is quite funny...use what I told you then google something unreliable to educate me pretending an expert...save our time and the forum resource please...as we always said, everyone could edit the wiki.
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HighLand trial is important and obligatory for every model of chinese Armored Vehicles...without passing this trial, none of the new models could get the natioanal certification...and this means every NEW model of Armored Vehicle can be deployed and fit for the combat condition in XiZhang (Tibet) area.

and I could tell you, at this moment the only model long term deployed in XiZhang is ZTZ96A ...but every year. different units from the whole country with their ZTZ99 serial ,ZTZ59D and other Armored Vehicles are deployed in this area for training ande exercise...we are not lack of pix and news if you can read chinese...
------------------------

Army need new model to replace the old Type62...and there is something under develpment and trial(actully what we saw is the winner. there is another failed model from some other team which seems better looking than this one...LOL)...as simple as that... I don't understand some member here are so unwilling to accept it... such Light Tank is not a big deal indeed...
Suffice it to say, weapons systems are not merely for display.

They have a purpose.

And that purpose is to effectively translate the national policy based on the Threat perception which is based on the adversary's CNP. That apart, the Terrain and Weather also plays an important role in deciding the weapons systems necessary to translate the aim and combat the Threat.

To have an amphibious tank, low in armour in a terrain where there is no soft ground or water bodies is militarily illiterate a thought.

To have a Light Tank to combat in the modern battlefield is equally a militarily illiterate contention.

So will it be militarily silly by having an MBT in a combat scenario where there is soft marshy ground and paddy fields or in very soft sand terrrain. Anyone who has seen and driven a tank would know it is so.

That the Type 62 Light tank was mauled in the Vietnam war is proof enough and that is why it is now employed in secondary role. It is obvious that the Chinese will phase them out as new tanks are available to replace them.

If you observed the Wiki, you would find that it has references. Do look them up.

If you don't like Wiki, please give a link to the official Chinese PLA source to support your contention.
 

Ray

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I ask again where? and what PLA designation? There is none. End of story. But do keep posting type 96 MBT to support your claims though. :lol:
English is the language in what I wrote.

End of story since you have no official Chinese source to indicate so.

You all merely give your hypotheses and nothing more and flash a few photos.

Or take the cover of stating it is in Chinese.

If what you say is right, surely there will be such info available in English on the web.

There are so many China watchers all over the world.
 
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shiphone

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about wiki:

English edition Wiki about Western Stuff(or Indian Stuff as well,coz you speak English ,do u)...it might be OK
English edition Wiki about Chinese Stuff(especialy military related)? please ,save me...but the Chinese edition might be a little more accurate and you might be able to learn something. and unlike Indian, our official language is Mandarin. so the language barrier will always be the problem for someone
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BTW ,I do suggest you learn some Chinese, since you are so active to repost the English news (from the western media mostly) about China which bring a lot fun to us... actually on our military forum ,your ID is quite famous coz some guy reposted your posts here and translated into Chinese occasionally ---it seems that knight--Don Quixote living in our age ...LOL, no offence here ---but I want to make a little suggestion :the western news agency has their stand. and every news agency has the stand....May I remind you the indian's reaction to the news report from western media during the CWG2010? ..if you want to learn this world more objectively, try to get some info from different channel ,even from your so called hostile country.

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we will keep this Light Tank project updated here if you interested...and as I said ,such Light tank is not the backbone of PLA armored force although many advanced and expensive Tech applied in this project. Army would have hundreds at most... and this is not that hot on our forum.
 
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Ray

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about wiki:

English edition Wiki about Western Stuff(or Indian Stuff as well,coz you speak English ,do u)...it might be OK
English edition Wiki about Chinese Stuff(especialy military related)? please ,save me...but the Chinese edition might be a little more accurate and you might be able to learn something. and unlike Indian, our official language is Mandarin. so the language barrier will always be the problem for someone
------------
BTW ,I do suggest you learn some Chinese, since you are so active to repost the English news (from the western media mostly) about China which bring a lot fun to us... actually on our military forum ,your ID is quite famous coz some guy reposted your posts here and translated into Chinese occasionally ---it seems that knight--Don Quixote living in our age ...LOL, no offence here ---but I want to make a little suggestion :the western news agency has their stand. and every news agency has the stand....May I remind you the indian's reaction to the news report from western media during the CWG2010? ..if you want to learn this world more objectively, try to get some info from different channel ,even from your so called hostile country.

----------------------------------------
we will keep this Light Tank project updated here if you interested...and as I said ,such Light tank is not the backbone of PLA armored force. Army would have hundreds at most... and this is not that hot on our forum.
One can only post English news since I am not that adept and Machiavellian like the Chinese to invent news and details with the aim to baffle and daze those reading and in turn spread falsehood and disinformation.

It is good to be Don Quixote than being the donkey of Sancho Panza and that is what is said about you at many forums/ fora..

And to be frank, it really is not material what some Chinese wannabes have to say about me just because they are exposed for their silly jingoism and broken daydreams by me.

Be good enough to talk about employment of tanks from sources and Chinese official sources since that is all that you believe rather than flashing pictures and give hypotheses that defy modern military thinking.

There is no requirement to learn Mandarin since it is not an international language. It is better that you all learn English, which you all are doing very desperate hurry. It is better to have alphabets than symbols and figurines to depict words and that too with four different tones! You sure know how to complicate simple things.

If the Chinese sources were accurate, it would surely feature in many English web links.

The fact that there is no such links does speak highly of your accuracy.

There are many China watchers the world over and so it would have found mention.

The fact that you have not been able to give any facts that corroborates the rationale of employment of light tanks in Tibet apart from drivel is good enough to know that you all were once again on a showpiece act to project China and nothing more.

I am sure the Chinese armour people and Generals are not totally daft to use light tanks vs modern tanks.

Even for recce in force, ICVs have replaced light tanks and more so, since they are cheaper to manufacture and less noisy and yet capable of the task of a light tank..

BTW, are you the same old Chinese Communist hack of WAB, XIhuahua who is also the head honcho of the Chinese forum?

If so, your comments are understandable since you get horribly embarrassed and shake in anger if China is exposed and you are exposed as a paid Communist propagandist.

As far as CWG or any report in any media, it does not raise irrational jingoist feeling as it does to the Chinese, who think the world and the universe revolves around them.

We check the facts and if they are wrong, we put out the facts as perceived by us.

Do grow up.

Get back to the Light Tank in Tibet.
 
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ice berg

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English is the language in what I wrote.

End of story since you have no official Chinese source to indicate so.

You all merely give your hypotheses and nothing more and flash a few photos.

Or take the cover of stating it is in Chinese.

If what you say is right, surely there will be such info available in English on the web.

There are so many China watchers all over the world.
With all due respect, you are doing exactly the same thing as the rest of us.
Until the PLA gives an official designation, all we have is speculations. You can argue it is light tank, MBT or whatever.
Let us just agree to disagree and move on.
 

Ray

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I have commented on the tanks shown to be in Tibet.

I have used sources to indicate the status as to what they are, to include the Chinese source that Xihuahua runs, that being the closest to the official view, since Xihuahua claims to be close to the PLA or so it is said by a Chinese Colonel on WAB.

I have not given any personal opinion since I have not seen the Chinese tank and so I have had to go with what is available on the net,

This fact and because of the fact that in the modern battlefield, which is getting progressively lethal, it is well nigh impossible for a light tank to survive, China would not use Light tanks in Tibet (unless it is for secondary roles like quelling riots).

China has produced a large number of Light tanks and so it would be unwise and not good economics to mothball them and so they are still in service.

However, I am open to being informed from OFFICIAL Chinese Govt source since you all do not believe any other source and so you can feel satisfied by giving authentic Chinese Govt sources. I say this since you even debunk Sinodefence, the closest one can get regarding China military and they claim that they have teh ear of the Chinese military and have done extensive research!

Since you don't even believe that, your Xixhuahau is exposed as another charlatan masquerading as a China defence expert!

As I sad before it is better to be Salim than the donkey of Sancho Panza. No offence meant!

BTW, Wiki is not all that bad. It has reference to the original documents. And therefore, to a great degree, authentic!

It is the lazy who when the lose whine and it also show that they are superficial in that they don't even check the references before comment like a crazed toad in monsoon or as Mao had said of the Chinese - frogs in the well!

Yes, I like Mao in some respect as I do Sun Tsu too!
 
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ice berg

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I have commented on the tanks shown to be in Tibet.

I have used sources to indicate the status as to what they are, to include the Chinese source that Xihuahua runs, that being the closest to the official view, since Xihuahua claims to be close to the PLA or so it is said by a Chinese Colonel on WAB.

Wdf is Xihuahua? And what source? The only one you have used are wiki and sino defence on type 96/99 MBT. It got nothing to do with the new tank or whatever it is.

I have not given any personal opinion since I have not seen the Chinese tank and so I have had to go with what is available on the net,

This fact and because of the fact that in the modern battlefield, which is getting progressively lethal, it is well nigh impossible for a light tank to survive, China would not use Light tanks in Tibet (unless it is for secondary roles like quelling riots).

China has produced a large number of Light tanks and so it would be unwise and not good economics to mothball them and so they are still in service.

Now that you agree there is a term such as light tank, then we can finally move on.

This topic is covered extensively in wab btw. I quote:
A light tank or a wheeled AFV with a 120mm gun even a low pressure model offers a much better anti-armor platform for light and cavalry formations than a missile platform.

An otherwise light unit in a restricted terrain setting with an infantry tank with MBT type sensing and direct fire using good tactics with sound leadership will dominate an opposing force that lacks this capability. It would also be extremely useful in a COIN mission. Contrary to popular myth, tanks were vital piece sof equipment in Vietnam. No they cannot go everywhere, but where they are, they dominate.

So with an eye on Indian army forces in the region and Tibetan nationalist it appears the concept of infantry tank may have been reborn.
Chinese AFV update. - Page 9
However, I am open to being informed from OFFICIAL Chinese Govt source since you all do not believe any other source and so you can feel satisfied by giving authentic Chinese Govt sources. I say this since you even debunk Sinodefence, the closest one can get regarding China military and they claim that they have teh ear of the Chinese military and have done extensive research!

In my personal opinion wab and CDF are alot better than sinodefence.
Since you don't even believe that, your Xixhuahau is exposed as another charlatan masquerading as a China defence expert!

Once again, I have no idea who this xihuahua is.
As I sad before it is better to be Salim than the donkey of Sancho Panza. No offence meant!

None taken. People in a glass house shouldnt throw stones at others though.
BTW, Wiki is not all that bad. It has reference to the original documents. And therefore, to a great degree, authentic!

Agree, however those you mentioned isnt a good exemple though.
It is the lazy who when the lose whine and it also show that they are superficial in that they don't even check the references before comment like a crazed toad in monsoon or as Mao had said of the Chinese - frogs in the well!

Agree, you may take a closer look at your sources. Yes, I like Mao in some respect as I do Sun Tsu too!
I am well aware of the fondness you have for them.
 

Ray

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I am well aware of the fondness you have for them.
Personal opinions are passé (as in the fencing terminology).

Links provide authenticity.
 

warzone

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Re: New light tank for operating on the Tibetan Plateau

Tanks moving through the narrow confines of the passes into India would be suicidal.

Light tanks moving through the passes would be plums for the picking by anti tank teams located on the sides mountains.

One tank down would mean the column becoming static.

Then it is 4th of July!

Likewise, if India pushes through light tanks and then makes a foray on the Tibetan Plateau, they will be made mincemeat of!

I have seen the Plateau, and it is ideal tank country!

But from the Indian standpoint to bring MBTs is the challenge.
Picking up by anti tank team or not, it depends how their use the light tanks and tactics, but mountain area does favour ambushing side. The light armors do not have to be spearhead only when it's necessary.Talking about Tibet Plateau, only the tiny center area is suitable for heavies, but Indo-Gangetic Plain would be even better candidate based on the same theory. On the opposite side, along the Sino-Indian border, most places are choppy and muddy, so it favours lighter armors. But you are right, both sides will face extreme challenge on logistics in those areas.
 
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Ray

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Re: New light tank for operating on the Tibetan Plateau

Picking up by anti tank team or not, it depends how their use the light tanks and tactics, but mountain area does favour ambushing side. The light armors do not have to be spearhead only when it's necessary.Talking about Tibet Plateau, only the tiny center area is suitable for heavies, but Indo-Gangetic Plain would be even better candidate based on the same theory. On the opposite side, along the Sino-Indian border, most places are choppy and muddy, so it favours lighter armors. But you are right, both sides will face extreme challenge on logistics in those areas.
What would be the employment and tactics of light tank you visualise?

The Sino China border is high altitude. Which part is muddy and choppy?
 

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