China's United Nations Security Council Permanent Veto constrains China

[Ancient Indian]

Off topic,
@Martian can you give some citations of your country men achievements in software related stuff.

Check this out,

J#

J# worked with Java bytecode as well as source so it could be used to transition applications that used third-partylibraries even if their original source code was unavailable. It was developed by the Hyderabad-based Microsoft India Development Center at HITEC City in India

I don't know much about china's IT industry.

 

[Martian]

Off topic,
@Martian can you give some citations of your country men achievements in software related stuff.

Check this out,

J#


I don't know much about china's IT industry.

China had three finalists among the Gordon Bell award top ten for the best supercomputer software program.
----------

A Look Inside China’s Chart-Topping New Supercomputer | The Next Platform

"Jun 20, 2016 - Recall that the reigning supercomputer in China, the Tianhe-2 .... “The fact that [China] have three finalists for the Gordon Bell award is a big deal."

 

[adrenalin]

Off topic,
@Martian can you give some citations of your country men achievements in software related stuff.

Check this out,

J#


I don't know much about china's IT industry.

this is what chinise do in chini it industry

Huawei Admits Copying Code From Cisco in Router Software

china is theif country.

 

[Martian]

this is what chinise do in chini it industry

Huawei Admits Copying Code From Cisco in Router Software

china is theif country.

Your 2003 citation is 13 years old. It says:

"Huawei Technologies Co. said a small portion of its router software apparently was copied from Cisco Systems Inc., but the Chinese company said it is removing the tainted software from its routers globally."
----------

Software is written in modular form. One bad author out of 75,000 Huawei engineers is not a serious problem. It only means one bad apple.

The code was removed and replaced. Huawei paid NO DAMAGES in the Huawei-Cisco case of 2003.
----------

Why don't you go into the European sub-forum and rant about Germany's SAP copying US Oracle's entire software?

Oracle, SAP settle long-standing TomorrowNow lawsuit | PC World

"SAP and Oracle have settled a long-standing copyright-infringement lawsuit, with the German company agreeing to pay about US$359 million in damages and interest to Oracle instead of the $1.3 billion awarded in 2010.

Oracle was sued by SAP in 2007 on allegations that its now-defunct subsidiary, TomorrowNow, had illegally downloaded Oracle’s software while providing software support services to Oracle customers.

SAP eventually accepted liability for the wrongdoing by TomorrowNow, which led to a trial on damages that resulted in the $1.3 billion award. That decision by a jury in 2010 was overruled by U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton who found that the jury had overreached, and gave Oracle the choice of accepting a smaller award of $272 million or seeking a new trial. An appeals court revised the damages figure to $356.7 million."

 

[A chauhan]

So, what else we have been saying?
Change the old law, recognize new world unless this body becomes irrelevant itself.

World? Or it's only you?
India has support of most countries among G4 and strongest bid among the 4.
India has more than 60 countries supporting openly and 4 out 5 UNSC members favouring. This is happening like NSG.

It can't overcome in this decade, not forever or UNSC irrevalent.

But most of mentioned by you irrevalent.

Sure, UK and France are giants.
FYI, even an area of 1/3rd of China isn't small. Even with area of less than 3.29 square kilometres, India is called giant.
And again, it's power what matters. If you have justify keeping India out, first push out France and UK.
US, Russia and China are greatest powers on planet as of now.

But that won't also work because as Indian Economy, defense budget and technical capability is growing fast with time, it will be there in same league as that US, Russia and China (in fact Russia will be powerless by then).

That I've explained above.
But just asking Global Times not to remind Indians about morality and rules in that case.
UNSC will become nearly dysfunctional. Mark my words.

FYI, GDP per capita is always measured in PPP and becomes necessary in case of India who's country with lowest cost of living in entire world. We have way higher HDI than most countries with same nominal GDP per capita.
By the way,
We have one of the highest GDP per capita growth rate enough to make us an upper middle income economy in 15 years.
I just wanna ask, where did Chinese GDP per capita stood when it joined UNSC?
Think over it.
Moreover, India has reduced poverty ratio to 12.4%(some suggest 7.7%).
Ask for sources if you want.
As I said, most of your issues are unrelated to UNSC seat.

We have no semiconductor plants because we didn't bother about it(production is not zero, we make it at small scale for scientific experiments, sometimes for satellites). We are now going to set up two plants in Prantji of Gujarat.
But again it's unrelated, did China have semiconductor plants when it joined UNSC.
Now, let me say,

1. India has sent Mars mission and discovered water on Moon. Let's get in UNSC.
2. We have been building a neutrino observatory (to be completed very soon, end of this year or start of next year.) will have four times bigger magnet than CERN. Largest in the world and obviously way larger than Chinese neutrino detector. So, kindly give us UNSC seat.
3. We are biggest exporter of Softwares, now give us UNSC seat.
4. We have 4th largest train, second largest road network, we have invented Skybus Metro, we produce millions of two Wheelers, give us UNSC seat.
5. We have 7th largest economy, fastest growing among top 20, 6th largest defense budget, 4th largest air force, third largest army, sixth largest Navy, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, biological weapons, testing laser weapons and studying electromagnetic weapons, we have ICBMS, LRCMs, supersonic ABMs, nearly complete nuclear triad, ICBMs(more under development), developing hypersonic weapons, stealth warships, developing stealth planes, a vibrant space and R&D program, we are godfather of our region IOR where other local countries together can't challenge us, we have a nice non proliferation record, an active foreign policy and involve in issues of other countries for restoring peace. (This one has some substance. Hasn't it?)

LOL, in fact no one can stop India to get in UNSC except a Chinese veto and we will soon also solve a way out of it as well.

Your all arguments are futile and baseless. But one thing I really will have to admit which Indiots lack and Chinkies in bulk.
That's "Never give up" attitude.
You know you are proved wrong in SCS (and you if still want to restore 2000 years glory by getting SCS, restore complete glory by leaving control of landmass which you hadn't 2000 years ago), you guys has no argument to prove yourself right, you gave argument of might is right and then, boasted over Indians of this might (continuously denying that India could do the same with veto power, do you seriously think India will ever challenge America with Nature Articles and Semiconductors? ).

You got no correct explanation of keeping us out of UNSC, or proving India to be a small country (I have earlier explained in the map how China became large, if India also had such expansionist attitude, it would also have become way larger).
So, you kept rotating it here and there. Really, you guys never give up.

You nailed it boy ! Good job ! :biggrin2:

 

[Compersion]

1946 First meeting of United Nations Security Council
1947 India becomes an independent country.
1949 PRC wins Chinese civil war against KMT
1971 Taiwan kicked out of the UN. PRC assumes Chinese permanent veto.

As you can see, the People's Republic of China acquired the UNSC permanent veto despite coming into existence two years after India.

The countries of the world wanted to give the permanent veto to mainland China in 1971. They also want China to keep the permanent veto. That's why it's funny to read Indian comments about stripping the permanent veto from China. It will never happen. The PRC UNSC permanent veto is designed to constrain Chinese military power.

Those same countries of the world have refused to give the permanent veto to India.

you are very liberal with the history ... is that how PRC got UNSC ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_2758

Can you also do a checklist on your first message for the UNGA (for ease of reference that is United Nations General Assembly) ... what was PRC in 1970s like ...

PRC in 1970s (when it got UNSC):

1. China is the world's second-largest country in land area (source: World Bank). OK
2. China consumes the most energy per year (source: BP). NO
3. China is the world's largest exporter and trading nation. NO
4. China is the world's largest manufacturer and consumer of machine tools. (source: Gardner) NO
5. China adds the most industrial robots per year and will have the world's largest installed base of industrial robots at the end of this year (source: IFR). NO
6. China has the world's largest foreign exchange reserves. NO
7. China ranks second in the world each year in producing Nature science articles. (source: Nature Index) NO
8. And so on. NO

What was the criteria for UNSC membership in 1970s. What is the criteria for UNSC membership now.

India is doing it the right way ...

Please be fair and dont try and put words in others mouths. I am sure you think you having ability and capability to say and people will follow.

But normally you have to convince and have sound logic.

Why did USA vote NO for PRC UNSC membership ...

Russia (Soviet Union) was also played (& backstabbed). No need to talk about such things when you sit in a shiny (empty) building in shanghai ... looks good !! forget it ... everyone agrees with you.

What are the betting odds on India getting into UNSC again ... please make it a formal offer.

Its fine to have a proper procedure. But from what you are saying it is clear you are making far from that and rejection of India is clouding your judgement. You will find there are many good and common things between Chinese and Indian people and they represent a large proportion of the world population and development. India will not beg for UNSC and we want to do it the right way ...

If UNGA gives vote for India to be on UNSC. The question is only how India gets onto UNSC. Unlike NSG there is no need for consensus for UNSC. PRC Veto India ... please go ahead another item where the world would question PRC on ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations

although Saudi Arabia submitted a proposition allowing the ROC to retain its seat at the UN and its affiliated organizations "until the people of the Island of Taiwan are enabled by a referendum or a plebiscite" under the auspices of the UN to choose among three options: continued independence as asovereign state with a neutral status defined by a treaty recorded by the UN; a confederation with the PRC; or a federation with the PRC.

What is Taiwan ... what are their rights in UNSC and NPT and NSG ...

What does that mean ... That PRC has 0.5 vote and Taiwan has 0.5 = 1 vote in UNSC ...

And please do not delink the thought that PRC wants to move away from Pakistan and North Korea ... such is shameful !! the psyche is there ... but again Pakistan is also knowing PRC wants them to be another North Korea ...

 

[Martian]

you are very liberal with the history ... is that how PRC got UNSC ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_2758

Can you also do a checklist on your first message for the UNGA (for ease of reference that is United Nations General Assembly) ... what was PRC in 1970s like ...

PRC in 1970s (when it got UNSC):

1. China is the world's second-largest country in land area (source: World Bank). OK
2. China consumes the most energy per year (source: BP). NO
3. China is the world's largest exporter and trading nation. NO
4. China is the world's largest manufacturer and consumer of machine tools. (source: Gardner) NO
5. China adds the most industrial robots per year and will have the world's largest installed base of industrial robots at the end of this year (source: IFR). NO
6. China has the world's largest foreign exchange reserves. NO
7. China ranks second in the world each year in producing Nature science articles. (source: Nature Index) NO
8. And so on. NO

What was the criteria for UNSC membership in 1970s. What is the criteria for UNSC membership now.

India is doing it the right way ...

Please be fair and dont try and put words in others mouths. I am sure you think you having ability and capability to say and people will follow.

But normally you have to convince and have sound logic.

Why did USA vote NO for PRC UNSC membership ...

Russia (Soviet Union) was also played (& backstabbed). No need to talk about such things when you sit in a shiny (empty) building in shanghai ... looks good !! forget it ... everyone agrees with you.

What are the betting odds on India getting into UNSC again ... please make it a formal offer.

Its fine to have a proper procedure. But from what you are saying it is clear you are making far from that and rejection of India is clouding your judgement. You will find there are many good and common things between Chinese and Indian people and they represent a large proportion of the world population and development. India will not beg for UNSC and we want to do it the right way ...

If UNGA gives vote for India to be on UNSC. The question is only how India gets onto UNSC. Unlike NSG there is no need for consensus for UNSC. PRC Veto India ... please go ahead another item where the world would question PRC on ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations

although Saudi Arabia submitted a proposition allowing the ROC to retain its seat at the UN and its affiliated organizations "until the people of the Island of Taiwan are enabled by a referendum or a plebiscite" under the auspices of the UN to choose among three options: continued independence as asovereign state with a neutral status defined by a treaty recorded by the UN; a confederation with the PRC; or a federation with the PRC.

What is Taiwan ... what are their rights in UNSC and NPT and NSG ...

What does that mean ... That PRC has 0.5 vote and Taiwan has 0.5 = 1 vote in UNSC ...

And please do not delink the thought that PRC wants to move away from Pakistan and North Korea ... such is shameful !! the psyche is there ... but again Pakistan is also knowing PRC wants them to be another North Korea ...

Give me a break. This is not 1972.

You cannot use China's 1972 standards to apply for a UNSC permanent seat.

Did mainland China have a permanent veto prior to 1972? No, it was held by Taiwan.

Did China have a permanent veto after 1972? YES. This means China will keep using its veto to keep India out of the UNSC.

 

[Compersion]

Give me a break. This is not 1972.

You cannot use China's 1972 standards to apply for a UNSC permanent seat.

Did mainland China have a permanent veto prior to 1972? No, it was held by Taiwan.

Did China have a permanent veto after 1972? YES. This means China will keep using its veto to keep India out of the UNSC.

Fine that is the frivolous and giddy PRC that world and India has to deal with.

Why was veto held by Taiwan before 1972 ? did Taiwan have nuclear weapons. do they have them now. are they a nuclear weapon state. China is ... what is PRC - what is ROC ... what is China.

the fact is that PRC got in 1970s. what was the standard used ... why was it done. do not look today. look to 1970s. why was UK, France, Russia in. why was USA in. What is the reason for UNSC permanent member. Again all but PRC (again not sure on this some say PRC is supporting) has come out openly in support for India.

and what is the standard today for UNSC membership today ? (please be careful you have already diverged and split all what you said before ... please use sense and reason)

What you are saying and agreeing is that India deserves to be on UNSC but PRC will VETO to keep India out of UNSC.

Please say that out loud and clearly. Do not play with words about how PRC is this and that. India deserves to be on UNSC.

Why would PRC Veto ? apart from North Korea and Pakistan who can please PRC fully ...

and i dont think you are aware of the shame that is bringing to Chinese people. UNGA assembly vote ... and on top of that a Veto by PRC ... on what grounds ... procedure (again)

And what happens if PRC is not consulted and included in the process (who was consulted when PRC got into 1970s):

Dont need say this but this is reality: P5 + India = P6

The overriding USA and Russia (& France, UK) impetus on UNSC reform will overcome and make it real.

If the question is vote for India and its candidature on UNSC you take out all except for possible one.

Also.

Out of this process the UNSC Permanent member criteria for any country to get on UNSC will be:

- large and powerful;
- committed to democracy and human rights;
- responsible in how it develops and uses military power;
- a positive force for arms control and nonproliferation; and
- willing to contribute militarily to deter or stop violent conflict and save lives.

Japan's Not Ready for Permanent UNSC Seat | Brookings Institution

 

[Ancient Indian]

China had three finalists among the Gordon Bell award top ten for the best supercomputer software program.
----------

A Look Inside China’s Chart-Topping New Supercomputer | The Next Platform

"Jun 20, 2016 - Recall that the reigning supercomputer in China, the Tianhe-2 .... “The fact that [China] have three finalists for the Gordon Bell award is a big deal."

Ok I got you now.
Whenever you bring china manufacturing wonders to the forum, I will show something IT related to you.

 

[Martian]

Ok I got you now.
Whenever you bring china manufacturing wonders to the forum, I will show something IT related to you.

Don't hold your breath. I usually post on military matters.

 

[Ancient Indian]

Don't hold your breath. I usually post on military matters.

But you focus most on advancements in technologies.

You mastered industrial thing and we mastered information thing.
China has muscle and India has brain.
No dick measuring here please.

Most Indians don't brag about themselves.

 

[A chauhan]

After 30 years G4 would have become superpowers, some even would have surpassed USA and China, UNSC will be useless afterwards.

 

[Martian]

But you focus most on advancements in technologies.

You mastered industrial thing and we mastered information thing.
China has muscle and India has brain.
No dick measuring here please.

Most Indians don't brag about themselves.

There is an important difference. Chinese companies are huge (e.g. Huawei, Baidu, Alibaba, etc.).

On the other hand, Indian companies are tiny. You only have Tata, five oil companies, and one bank.

Reference: Fortune Global 500

 

[Ancient Indian]

There is a difference. Chinese companies are huge (e.g. Huawei, Baidu, Alibaba, etc.).

On the other hand, Indian companies are tiny.

Reference: see Fortune Global 500 list

You are not getting it, my friend.

Indian business environment is not supportive for young entrepreneurs. Have to pull enough clout to float some thing. It impedes our growth.
That is why most Indians take easy route and go overseas.

Hence no big achievements to showcase .

We have bigger imprint on IT world than people give credit for. One day it will explode. Then you will notice.

 

[Martian]

You are not getting it, my friend.

Indian business environment is not supportive for young entrepreneurs. Have to pull enough clout to float some thing. It impedes our growth.
That is why most Indians take easy route and go overseas.

Hence no big achievements to showcase .

We have bigger imprint on IT world than people give credit for. One day it will explode. Then you will notice.

No one is asking you to visit the Chinese sub-forum and read about the huge Chinese multi-billion dollar companies. If it bothers you, just stay in the Indian forums and be happy.

 

[Ancient Indian]

No one is asking you to visit the Chinese sub-forum and read about the huge Chinese multi-billion dollar companies. If it bothers you, just stay in the Indian forums and be happy.

Money and strength are not permanent. We Indians have better grasp on it.
We are not pushed enough to do something. Now it is happening.
If I am you, I won't look down on Indian future.

Ignore it if you don't like it.
I like your threads. They are much more informative than regular threads here.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

LOL, what the hell's going on the thread?

Thread was about Why China deserves UNSC Seat but landed comparing countries in Software Industries and semiconductors.
I don't say we Indian trollers are right either but what pathetic soul is @Martian who says they constraint seat because of more industrial robots and semiconductors.
Funny part is that how many times he has destroyed own logic.

when I remind him that India would even be bigger on historical bases, he reminds me that historical territorial bases are not applicable in modern world.
Then, again, hre says China is even larger than India if includes outer Mongolia and SCS on historical bases (forgets that China had the size of Rajasthan at that time), and

Here's, the map of historical empires of China and how this peaceful expansionist country made itself large.

And here's near somewhat similar if India reclaims its historical glory.

After all, this person gives the argument of Might is Right and China is powerful (would have make more sense if said before),
But again forgets that what a pathetic entity was his country when joined UNSC(India was offered a seat in 50s which our peaceful leaders revoked, yes, it was our mistake and we can revive),
A country who had been helped by same evil west to save their @$$e$ from Japanese (as a Democratic country) and changed into communist state as a result of a massive civil war. @Martian has itself accepted and called China a fourth world country in 60s(remember or let me give you a screenshot).
Meanwhile India today is a far stronger and important entity (even politically very important).

You say you had two superpowers (USA and USSR) against you, we have only one (PRC), one of you (USA is backing us).


Other thing for UNSC, you have
yourself admitted that Russian power too will decline like French and British. Only US and China among P5 gonna remain significant.
Other emerging with economy of similar size so higher defense budget and tech level is India. But it's not in P5.
Three out of five are weak.

Then, how can you say UNSC won't be irrelevalent?

Then, you have G2(US and China) but this time India constraints strongly. Will make G2 irrevalent because of being a major economy itself.
But at first place, I really don't think US and China can ever have a coordination to make G2 or any reason to make India against itself.

 

[Martian]

LOL, what the hell's going on the thread?

Thread was about Why China deserves UNSC Seat but landed comparing countries in Software Industries and semiconductors.
I don't say we Indian trollers are right either but what pathetic soul is @Martian who says they constraint seat because of more industrial robots and semiconductors.
Funny part is that how many times he has destroyed own logic.

when I remind him that India would even be bigger on historical bases, he reminds me that historical territorial bases are not applicable in modern world.
Then, again, hre says China is even larger than India if includes outer Mongolia and SCS on historical bases (forgets that China had the size of Rajasthan at that time), and

View attachment 9437
Here's, the map of historical empires of China and how this peaceful expansionist country made itself large.
View attachment 9439
And here's near somewhat similar if India reclaims its historical glory.
View attachment 9438
After all, this person gives the argument of Might is Right and China is powerful (would have make more sense if said before),
But again forgets that what a pathetic entity was his country when joined UNSC(India was offered a seat in 50s which our peaceful leaders revoked, yes, it was our mistake and we can revive),
A country who had been helped by same evil west to save their @$$e$ from Japanese (as a Democratic country) and changed into communist state as a result of a massive civil war. @Martian has itself accepted and called China a fourth world country in 60s(remember or let me give you a screenshot).
Meanwhile India today is a far stronger and important entity (even politically very important).

You say you had two superpowers (USA and USSR) against you, we have only one (PRC), one of you (USA is backing us).


Other thing for UNSC, you have
yourself admitted that Russian power too will decline like French and British. Only US and China among P5 gonna remain significant.
Other emerging with economy of similar size so higher defense budget and tech level is India. But it's not in P5.
Three out of five are weak.

Then, how can you say UNSC won't be irrelevalent?

Then, you have G2(US and China) but this time India constraints strongly. Will make G2 irrevalent because of being a major economy itself.
But at first place, I really don't think US and China can ever have a coordination to make G2 or any reason to make India against itself.

You have ignored what I've been saying.

I'm saying history doesn't matter.

China is in the UNSC clubhouse and you're not. The permanent veto allows China to reject India's UNSC application. Until you can figure out a way to get past the Chinese veto, you're wasting your time with a UNSC application. Go do something else. The door to the UNSC is closed.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

You have ignored what I've been saying.

I'm saying history doesn't matter.

China is in the UNSC clubhouse and you're not. The permanent veto allows China to reject India's UNSC application. Until you can figure out a way to get past the Chinese veto, you're wasting your time with a UNSC application. Go do something else. The door to the UNSC is closed.

In fact you have missed the point which I have been raising every post and you have once yourself said for MTCR membership whwhile quoting me earlier.
We are not pledged for UNSC. We want UNSC because it's influential. And there's no doubt that it will be irrevalent given the status of France and UK and where Russia is going.
There gonna be no advantage of such an organization. Nobody will obey their vetoes.
That's why we're comfortable.
We will get it or it will get in trash.
And now, as far as closing the door forever as said by you,
Any country can try for UNSC membership as long as it exists.
The only way to close our doors is to dissolve UNSC.
And in fact dissolution of UNSC will be good for India too.

We will not only be capable of competing in global politics at same level as that former UNSC permanent members
But if a new body like UNSC is recreated, India too will become it's member this time given it's status.

And same goes from my bet. I'm not taking responsibility if UNSC is dissolved or dysfunctional.
If India achieves similar political capabilities as that of US, Russia or PRC because of end of their political advantages due to UNSC or if India itself becomes part of such a body or gets any wavier or becomes capable of defying international laws because of power, it would be a winning sum (though you can reclaim your victory over UNSC. As you usually do saying how real world works,even if UNSC doesn't work).

 

[Martian]

In fact you have missed the point which I have been raising every post and you have once yourself said for MTCR membership whwhile quoting me earlier.
We are not pledged for UNSC. We want UNSC because it's influential. And there's no doubt that it will be irrevalent given the status of France and UK and where Russia is going.
There gonna be no advantage of such an organization. Nobody will obey their vetoes.
That's why we're comfortable.
We will get it or it will get in trash.
And now, as far as closing the door forever as said by you,
Any country can try for UNSC membership as long as it exists.
The only way to close our doors is to dissolve UNSC.
And in fact dissolution of UNSC will be good for India too.

We will not only be capable of competing in global politics at same level as that former UNSC permanent members
But if a new body like UNSC is recreated, India too will become it's member this time given it's status.

And same goes from my bet. I'm not taking responsibility if UNSC is dissolved or dysfunctional.
If India achieves similar political capabilities as that of US, Russia or PRC because of end of their political advantages due to UNSC or if India itself becomes part of such a body or gets any wavier or becomes capable of defying international laws because of power, it would be a winning sum (though you can reclaim your victory over UNSC. As you usually do saying how real world works,even if UNSC doesn't work).

It's going to be a long wait.

I predict India will not be admitted to the UNSC as a permanent member in your lifetime.

You Indians (e.g. government, media, forum members, etc.) have been bashing China for a very long time. China returns the favor by vetoing your effort to join the UNSC. This will not change.

You reap what you sow.

You Indians created this problem.