China's Leaders Increasingly Challenged by Social Unrest

Iamanidiot

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
5,325
Likes
1,504
I think Pakistan is on a class (or lack of it) by itself. The civilian government there si absolutely emasculated. All power (de jure and de facto) emanates from the Generals. At least in China this is not the case. There's sometimes gaps between the PLA and the Government like what we saw during Gates visit where the PLA Air Force flight tested its new J20 to the surprise of the Government.

So the CCP folding up will not throw China into immediate anarchy the PLA will take the reins and will use surrogates just like in Pakistan .This thing looks very NoKo
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
So the CCP folding up will not throw China into immediate anarchy the PLA will take the reins and will use surrogates just like in Pakistan .This thing looks very NoKo

Let's just say these PLA guys have more class than their Pakistani and NOKOR friends. :thumb:
 

RedDragon

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
536
Likes
69
There are tens of thousands of protests every year in china and one day ccp wont be able to hold control and it will result in deaths of tens of thousands and overthrow of ccp.

It will come down like a house on fire. While we in India have solid foundations and freedoms and many checks & balances to avoid disastrous situations.
There are tens of thousands of protests every year in india and one day the government wont be able to hold control and it will result in deaths of tens of thousands and overthrow of the corrupt government.

It will come down like a house on fire. While we in China have solid foundations and freedoms and many checks & balances to avoid disastrous situations.
 

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,570
There are tens of thousands of protests every year in india and one day the government wont be able to hold control and it will result in deaths of tens of thousands and overthrow of the corrupt government.

It will come down like a house on fire. While we in China have solid foundations and freedoms and many checks & balances to avoid disastrous situations.
Indians overthrow the government every few years. Its called an election.

The beautiful thing about it is that it doesn't require tens of thousands of people to die to change the regime.
 

RedDragon

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
536
Likes
69
Indians overthrow the government every few years. Its called an election.

The beautiful thing about it is that it doesn't require tens of thousands of people to die to change the regime.
I think the rebellions of India like Maoist killed more people than what happened in China.
 

RedDragon

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
536
Likes
69
Indians overthrow the government every few years. Its called an election.

The beautiful thing about it is that it doesn't require tens of thousands of people to die to change the regime.
And no matter how you elect, your government is still more corrupted than ours.
 

anoop_mig25

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
5,804
Likes
3,151
Country flag
more than that.

but you are missing the bigger picture. almost all of these protests, including the one in wukan, are against the corrupt local officials (and they are right to be angry with corrupt officials). these are not directed at the national government.

in fact, the villagers here are even appealing to the national government, asking them to punish the local officials.
well in every form governing system protest are always against local officals whom according to locals snipoff their legitimate share of resource (which is generally weleath) and since no one address their problem at local level they grudge against top level officals whom they consider hand in glove with local officals .

it same like OOP`S CONCEPT OF HANDLING EXCEPTION if there are no local level handlers to catch exceptions then exception is bubbled to higher order level
 
Last edited:

RedDragon

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
536
Likes
69
well in every form governing system protest are always against local officals whom according to locals snipoff their legitimate share of resource (which is generally weleath) and since no one address their problem at local level they grudge against top level officals whom they consider hand in glove with local officals .

it same like OOP`S CONCEPT OF HANDLING EXCEPTION if there are no local level handlers to catch exceptions then exception is bubbled to higher order level
Link political affairs with programming method, really interesting.
 

nimo_cn

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
4,032
Likes
883
Country flag
Indians overthrow the government every few years. Its called an election.

The beautiful thing about it is that it doesn't require tens of thousands of people to die to change the regime.
So what? MMS has been the prime minister of India for 10 years, 10 years aren't just few years.

In China, we don't have to elect, Hu is still gonna retire after being the president for 10 years, along with Wen.

What makes India so different?
 

huaxia rox

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
1,401
Likes
103
There are tens of thousands of protests every year in china and one day ccp wont be able to hold control and it will result in deaths of tens of thousands and overthrow of ccp.

It will come down like a house on fire. While we in India have solid foundations and freedoms and many checks & balances to avoid disastrous situations.
even soviet union didnt come down like u said and russia is still a major layer in many fields in the world and u execting a han dominated china that has its own root and culture for thousands of years to come down......
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,000
Likes
2,302
Country flag
I don't think the GoI is more corrupt than the CCP. Rather I think that China has been able to grow despite its corruption.
Then, my friend, you need to check your fact again.

Based on the transparency international, India (87) is more corruptive than China (78 ):

Transparency International - the global coalition against corruption

Based on my friends' personal experience, india is also more corruptive than China: at least he has never meet any chinese custom officer asked money from him in airport, which seems to be an standard income for indian officer.
 

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,570
Then, my friend, you need to check your fact again.

Based on the transparency international, India (87) is more corruptive than China (78 ):

Transparency International - the global coalition against corruption
India's score is 3.3 and China's score is 3.5 on a 0-10 scale. The difference is statistically insignificant.

I think corruption is more visible in India than in China, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist on a large scale in both countries. My comment about China being able to grow despite its corruption is still valid. The Chinese gov't, from what I've seen, has more political will compared to the GoI and less handicaps when its comes to domestic policy. This is very important when considering the role that government should play in economic growth.
 

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,570
Let's run a 2-Sample T-test!

China data from Transparency International:
CPI score = 3.5
Surveys used (n) = 9
Standard deviation (s) = 0.9
Range = 2.3 - 5.5

India data from Transparency International:
CPI score = 3.3
Surveys used = 10
Standard deviation = 0.4
Range = 2.6 - 3.9


Question: "Is India more corrupt than China?"

1. Let m1 denote the mean CPI score for China and let m2 denote the mean CPI score for India. Then m1-m2 is the difference in CPI scores between China and India.
2. Null hypothesis Ho: m1-m2=0 (there is no statistically significant difference in the level of corruption between India and China).
3. Alternate hypothesis Ha: m1-m2>0 (China has a statistically higher CPI score than India, meaning that China is less corrupt than India).
4. Significance level: alpha = .10 (I'm being quite lenient here)
5. Test statistic: t = (x-bar1 – x-bar2)/sq-root(s1^2/n1) + (s2^2/n2)
6. Assumptions: The corruption data for both India and China come from independently selected random samples.
7. Calculation: t = 0.614
8. P-value = 0.276
9. Conclusion: Because 0.276 > 0.10, we fail to reject Ho. There is no convincing evidence that India is more corrupt than China based on the sample data.

Math is too powerful for your dumb assertions :p
 
Last edited:

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,000
Likes
2,302
Country flag
India's score is 3.3 and China's score is 3.5 on a 0-10 scale. The difference is statistically insignificant.

I think corruption is more visible in India than in China, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist on a large scale in both countries. My comment about China being able to grow despite its corruption is still valid. The Chinese gov't, from what I've seen, has more political will compared to the GoI and less handicaps when its comes to domestic policy. This is very important when considering the role that government should play in economic growth.
You think corruption is more visible in india than in china? Can you give any data to support that? Or just because India is a "democratic" country, so it is supposed to make corruption more visible?

The difference between india and china on corruption is that if your corruptive behavior was catched by your enemy or public in China, you will end up in Jail or even get a bullet in your head; but in india, you just walk out of office and come back after a couple of years.

The reason that china can still grow despite its corruption is that CCP is relying on their performance for its legitimacy: if it cannot deliver its promise, it will be over every soon and get no chance coming back. Individually, if any ccp officer accept a bribe, he has the responsibility to make the thing work out or he will have to refund that money.
 

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,570
You think corruption is more visible in india than in china? Can you give any data to support that? Or just because India is a "democratic" country, so it is supposed to make corruption more visible?
Yes, that is a big reason why. Not just democracy but free media in particular. Even though Indian media is generally depraved and anti-intellectual, they do sometimes play an important role by exposing government malpractice.


The difference between india and china on corruption is that if your corruptive behavior was catched by your enemy or public in China, you will end up in Jail or even get a bullet in your head; but in india, you just walk out of office and come back after a couple of years.
This may work on the lower levels but not on the higher levels. If the highest governments officials are involved in corruption, what makes you think they will be caught? It would be an easy manner for them to blame someone down the ladder and have them executed instead.
 
Last edited:

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,000
Likes
2,302
Country flag
Yes, that is a big reason why. Not just democracy but free media in particular. Even though Indian media is generally depraved and anti-intellectual, they do sometimes play an important role by exposing government malpractice.
That is what exactly ruin the visibility of corruption when you put too much fake news on the paper. The real case no longer gets the attention it deserves.

This may work on the lower levels but not on the higher levels. If the highest governments officials are involved in corruption, what makes you think they will be caught? It would be an easy manner for them to blame someone down the ladder and have them executed instead.
Generally, there are 9 people in the highest office, they represent various political groups in the CCP. They are watching each other every day and looking for their enemies error: from corruption to wrong policy-- any case that can help them to remove their opposites.

Yes, they can blame someone down the ladder. But that doesn't mean they can get away for free because: 1. others know whose fault it is; 2. Your follower's mistake is still your mistake as you are the leader. If there are too many corruption or errors were discovered in one group in a period, or the case is too significant to make conciliation, the leader of this group will have to step down (may not resign immediately but disppear from news).
And the group will have to give up some senior positions in next round struggling which depends how significant it is. Some groups didn't even survive when the storm comes.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top