China's Draconian Modus Operandi to Progress

[no smoking]

Between me and Ray, Ray is more likely to be paid by government because he served Indian army.

My friend, he is not. I can prove it.

As an indian enjoying a good life, he just happens to care about Chinese poors more than Indian poors.

You have to understand this: revealing the dark life of normal Chinese can make him feel nothing but comfortable while discussing miserable life of indian poors can only bring some bad emotion which he feel it everyday. Worst of worse, Indian poors lives would require lot more from him rather than lips work.

 

[Ray]

My friend, he is not. I can prove it.

As an indian enjoying a good life, he just happens to care about Chinese poors more than Indian poors.

You have to understand this: revealing the dark life of normal Chinese can make him feel nothing but comfortable while discussing miserable life of indian poors can only bring some bad emotion which he feel it everyday. Worst of worse, Indian poors lives would require lot more from him rather than lips work.

How juvenile and irrelevant a post!

It is better to be poor than be a slave with the mind mortguaged to the Communist Govt.

We believe in having Liberty over Mind and Movement Death!

We are no Robots!


Enough of the silly refrain - it is happening in the poorest of China provinces!

Go back to your Commie masters or Tongzhis id you wish, and get a new slogan.

At least that will be new and refreshing for a change!

 

[nimo_cn]

My friend, he is not. I can prove it.

As an indian enjoying a good life, he just happens to care about Chinese poors more than Indian poors.

You have to understand this: revealing the dark life of normal Chinese can make him feel nothing but comfortable while discussing miserable life of indian poors can only bring some bad emotion which he feel it everyday. Worst of worse, Indian poors lives would require lot more from him rather than lips work.

He served India army and retired as a Brigadier and I believe he is still enjoying a fat pension from Indian government, in this regard, he is paid by Indian government.

He is one of those we call Indian elites who don't have to worry about fullfilling their basic creature comfort, it is understandable that silly comments keep coming from them.

In fact, this forum is full of them. As I can tell from my personal observation, there are not many Indian poster here to be from a humble background that makes them qualified to speak for the grassroot of India.

 

[Ray]

He served India army and retired as a Brigadier and I believe he is still enjoying a fat pension from Indian government, in this regard, he is paid by Indian government.

He is one of those we call Indian elites who don't have to worry about fullfilling their basic creature comfort, it is understandable that silly comments keep coming from them.

In fact, this forum is full of them. As I can tell from my personal observation, there are not many Indian poster here to be from a humble background that makes them qualified to speak for the grassroot of India.

It is not China that once you demit office, you continue to be in the Committee and influence the policy and workings.

The typical Chinese fashion of pronouncement of passing off untruths as Gospel truths!

I maybe the Chairman, but not Mao who never demitted office!

While I am not the elite, I will confess I am not a peasant as the Chinese posters claim themselves to be!

There are many in India who are from an humble background, with high class education and wonderful grasp of all subject to include the English language and their mother tongue too!

 

[W.G.Ewald]

My pension is not higher than those of my age. In fact, by comparison, it is a pittance.

And you knew that it would be so when you took the oath, Sir.:thumb:

 

[nimo_cn]

It is not China that once you demit office, you continue to be in the Committee and influence the policy and workings.

The typical Chinese fashion of pronouncement of passing off untruths as Gospel truths!

I maybe the Chairman, but not Mao who never demitted office!

While I am not the elite, I will confess I am not a peasant as the Chinese posters claim themselves to be!

There are many in India who are from an humble background, with high class education and wonderful grasp of all subject to include the English language and their mother tongue too!

People continue to influence policy making process after they resigned offices, this is no news. How many decades have the Gandhi family rule India and how many more decades that ruling is gonna continue? What makes you believe India to be immune to all of these power struggling games?

You may have resigned as an army officer, but now you are just another government paid propagandist. because

First, you are paid by Indian government;
Sencond, you are propagating nonsenses like "it is ok to starve as long as one can vote" to justify and guard Indian's current political system which fails to fulfill the basic needs of most Inidan people but enables Indian elites like you to take this country for a ride.

You are not an elite, then who is? Only 1% of Indians have access to broadband Internet access, and you are one of them, people don't have to be genius to figure out that those broadband internet users make up the majority of the Indian elites.

Don't use the flural form "Chinese posters" as if all Chinse posters had done that, because the fact is only one Chinese poster claimed to be from a peasnt background, and that is true. You really need to get rid of your bad habit of distorting fact, even if you are doing it in a discreet way.

I can't say there is no Indian posters here to be from humble ground, but I can say that few of the active posters are.

People who have been through hardship of life won't brag about fancy but hollow ideas such as democracy.

 

[nrj]

I think the Govt still pay your pension or retirement pay.

I think the Govt still pay your pension or retirement pay. And I also resume that it is higher than the common Indian's income at your age.

He served India army and retired as a Brigadier and I believe he is still enjoying a fat pension from Indian government, in this regard, he is paid by Indian government.

He is paid by Government of India as a token of this country's immense respect & gratefulness towards his selfless service in defending this nation's security, and not for activity on internet. Don't make absurd accusations.

 

[nrj]

My friend, he is not. I can prove it.

As an indian enjoying a good life, he just happens to care about Chinese poors more than Indian poors.

You have to understand this: revealing the dark life of normal Chinese can make him feel nothing but comfortable while discussing miserable life of indian poors can only bring some bad emotion which he feel it everyday. Worst of worse, Indian poors lives would require lot more from him rather than lips work.

Speak for yourself.

We are not seeking pleasure by posting incidents of human rights violation in China, that is not our culture.

However, this great country has provided us with every right to speak out and discuss issues in liberal environment. And we will utilize this freedom to post, discuss every topic at will without fearing authority.

If highlighted articles taste bitter to you, you can stay away.

 

[nrj]

In fact, this forum is full of them. As I can tell from my personal observation, there are not many Indian poster here to be from a humble background that makes them qualified to speak for the grassroot of India.

Stick to topic.

You may have resigned as an army officer, but now you are just another government paid propagandist. First, you are paid by Indian government;
Sencond, you are propagating nonsenses

I hereby warn you, these allegations will not be tolerated just for the sake of diverting attention from topic at hand.

Clever trick, but it won't float here.

People who have been through hardship of life won't brag about fancy but hollow ideas such as democracy.

Rather they are grateful to democracy for providing them equal rights & freedom to live like free men.

We celebrate democracy & will continue to do that when we can clearly see the difference and violation of fundamental rights undertaken by communists !

 

[Energon]

Land grabbing, extortion and corruption is definitely a big factor in the development of modern China and there's very little information regarding this matter because the Chinese government has so far managed to keep it under wraps. It is possible that this problem will "go away", but it's more likely that it will manifest in some sort of a standoff between the government and the affected portion of the populace. It will be interesting to see how the CCP deals with this problem.

 

[Ray]

People continue to influence policy making process after they resigned offices, this is no news. How many decades have the Gandhi family rule India and how many more decades that ruling is gonna continue? What makes you believe India to be immune to all of these power struggling games?

You may have resigned as an army officer, but now you are just another government paid propagandist. because

First, you are paid by Indian government;
Sencond, you are propagating nonsenses like "it is ok to starve as long as one can vote" to justify and guard Indian's current political system which fails to fulfill the basic needs of most Inidan people but enables Indian elites like you to take this country for a ride.

You are not an elite, then who is? Only 1% of Indians have access to broadband Internet access, and you are one of them, people don't have to be genius to figure out that those broadband internet users make up the majority of the Indian elites.

Don't use the flural form "Chinese posters" as if all Chinse posters had done that, because the fact is only one Chinese poster claimed to be from a peasnt background, and that is true. You really need to get rid of your bad habit of distorting fact, even if you are doing it in a discreet way.

I can't say there is no Indian posters here to be from humble ground, but I can say that few of the active posters are.

People who have been through hardship of life won't brag about fancy but hollow ideas such as democracy.

What an imbecilic thought to compare middle ranking Govt personnel with the Gandhi Family.

To imagine comparing Mao with a retired Govt functionary!

I have not resigned as a military officer. I completed the requisite number of years of service for retirement and then retired. So, get your fact right.

I get pension as all other Govt employees get. It is a part of our terms and conditions of service.

You don't get pension in China. Fine. But every other democracy gives pension to those who have retired after serving their Nation as represented by the Govt.

It is not propagating " nonsenses like "it is ok to starve as long as one can vote" to justify and guard Indian's current political system which fails to fulfill the basic needs of most Indian people but enables Indian elites like you to take this country for a ride. It is our faith in the system of democracy". The basic fact is that we don't want and will not allow to be frogmarched into slavery, even if we get almonds and nuts to eat. Our mind being free is our paramount aim! Freedom of Man! In China, it must be the ultimate orgasm to be frogmarched into submission. Not in India or any other democracy!

Internet in India is not for the elite. It maybe for the elite and Party hacks in China. Internet is a normal thing and there are internet cafes where all can use even if they do not have their broadband or even a computer. It is commonplace, and as commonplace as using public transport!

"Chinese posters" term is used since you all have uniform views (given rise to the idea that the Party line is being trotted out). Check the same with Indian posters. Each one is a khalifa by him' herself! Isn't it a great qualification in China to be a peasant? Correct me if I am wrong.

What, in your opinion, is 'humble'? Uneducated or not knowing English?

We all struggle and there is nothing that we brag about democracy. It maybe hollow to a conditioned forgmarched individual like you of China, but to us it is our lifeline and our breath of life! It is our lifeline and freedom from being frogmarched into submission and becoming robots of the Govt party line as we see happening in China and that is what this thread is there indicating!

I agree that our Freedom rankles you and you are jealous of it!

Bide your time, freedom will surely visit China. It is the basic norm for human existence!

You all don't believe in God (as per the Communist Party's dictate), but start believing.

God will be your Salvation and will guide you to the path of Freedom and human existence!

 

[Tianshan]

I do appreciate your embarrassment with this expose, but it was essential for all to know the real China behind the facade of duplicity!

ray has gone to a lot of trouble to "embarrass" and "expose" us. and what is this special information he wishes to share?

publicly available information, that has been covered by most major international news sources!

yes, this was how we achieved 10% growth for 30 years in a row, which no one has done before. and since you are not wiling to follow our method, this feat will probably never happen again.

Land grabbing, extortion and corruption is definitely a big factor in the development of modern China and there's very little information regarding this matter because the Chinese government has so far managed to keep it under wraps. It is possible that this problem will "go away", but it's more likely that it will manifest in some sort of a standoff between the government and the affected portion of the populace. It will be interesting to see how the CCP deals with this problem.

happened many times already, like in wukan. the result is that the government backed down.

 

[Ray]

Nothing to embarrass and expose.

Merely to inform so that the correct perspective of progress is known., which many do not know.

There is much around the universe and the night sky too for all to see.

How much does one know, unless it is pointed out?

 

[RedDragon]

He is paid by Government of India as a token of this country's immense respect & gratefulness towards his selfless service in defending this nation's security, and not for activity on internet. Don't make absurd accusations.

I think you have misunderstand what I mean. When you are retired, what you do is not connect with the goverment or the army, it is the same in both China and India.

What I mean is that, Ray is still have relationship with the Indian goverment, after all he still recieve pension from the goverment.

 

[RedDragon]

Nothing to embarrass and expose.

Merely to inform so that the correct perspective of progress is known., which many do not know.

There is much around the universe and the night sky too for all to see.

How much does one know, unless it is pointed out?

I think you have misunderstand what I mean. When you are retired, what you do is not connect with the goverment or the army, it is the same in both China and India. What I mean is that, you is still have relationship with the Indian goverment, after all you still recieve a good pension from the goverment.

And what I guess your pension is higher than the average Indian's income, is compare with the "average indian of your age", not the "people with your same rank". I also think it is very likely to be what you deserved, because you have done a lot of to you country, but it is also true that it is higher than the "average indian"'s income. And it is given by the goverment. You do have relationship with the goverment. And if there are some big change like the USSR to Russia, perhaps everything you have now will be gone. I don't want to embress you or make you shy, I just describe the truth.

 

[nrj]

I think you have misunderstand what I mean. When you are retired, what you do is not connect with the goverment or the army, it is the same in both China and India.

What I mean is that, Ray is still have relationship with the Indian goverment, after all he still recieve pension from the goverment.

It would be better to stick with topic at hand.

 

[Ray]

I think you have misunderstand what I mean. When you are retired, what you do is not connect with the goverment or the army, it is the same in both China and India. What I mean is that, you is still have relationship with the Indian goverment, after all you still recieve a good pension from the goverment.

No.

Once retired you have nothing to do with the Govt.

If it were that I had to do with the Govt, then I would not have been able to give the comments that I give on this forum!

When you are in Govt, you cannot comment on Govt policy and that is the service rule.

The service rules states that if you disagree with the Govt while in Service, you are to resign and then speak your mind.

And what I guess your pension is higher than the average Indian's income, is compare with the "average indian of your age", not the "people with your same rank". I also think it is very likely to be what you deserved, because you have done a lot of to you country, but it is also true that it is higher than the "average indian"'s income. And it is given by the goverment. You do have relationship with the goverment. And if there are some big change like the USSR to Russia, perhaps everything you have now will be gone. I don't want to embress you or make you shy, I just describe the truth.

My pension is sure better than a clerk or a peon.

I agree about that.

Govt has to pay my pension whether I like it or not. It is as per the terms and conditions of service. The Govt is doing me no favour by giving me and others their pension!

 

[Energon]

happened many times already, like in wukan. the result is that the government backed down.

Right, this is why the level of land grabbing has increased precipitously since 2005. If the government is "backing down" and conceding to the farmers they sure have a funny way of showing it. Wukan was an incident that boiled over and was hyped in the Western media. But on a daily basis there's a whole lot of land grabbing going on where a whole lot of farmers get screwed over and nobody hears about it.

If the researchers at Renmin university are to be believed, there were about 187,000 mass conflicts that occured in china in 2010 and 65% of them were due to land grabbing. Every year approximately 4 million people have their land taken by the government and only a few (tend to be the wealther ones) who get compensated relatively well. This hardly shows any governmental concession. Also the resale value of the land seized by the government is exponential, so by and large all the farmers are getting screwed.

As per Niall Ferguson's findings there is virtually no rule of law in China when it comes to protection of property rights. The federal government is trying to show attempts to work on this issue but the actual corruption goes on at the local level and is difficult to control.

 

[no smoking]

Right, this is why the level of land grabbing has increased precipitously since 2005. If the government is "backing down" and conceding to the farmers they sure have a funny way of showing it. Wukan was an incident that boiled over and was hyped in the Western media. But on a daily basis there's a whole lot of land grabbing going on where a whole lot of farmers get screwed over and nobody hears about it.

If the researchers at Renmin university are to be believed, there were about 187,000 mass conflicts that occured in china in 2010 and 65% of them were due to land grabbing. Every year approximately 4 million people have their land taken by the government and only a few (tend to be the wealther ones) who get compensated relatively well. This hardly shows any governmental concession. Also the resale value of the land seized by the government is exponential, so by and large all the farmers are getting screwed.

Can you please provide the source of data of that 187000 mass conflicts from Renmin university? I am not doubt your honesty. There is just too many fake reports entitled with famous institutions made by those pro-democratic organizations, such as that "social stability maintenance expense".

If this data is true, my second question is how the government silenced most of these people without making concession? With almost 700m internet users surfing online, it is really beyond imagination how CCP can control those mass conflicts pictures showed online? You have to keep this in mind: we also have thousands of overseas Chinese forum outside China. Why didn't we see it out here?

Don't get me wrong. I am saying that there is no problem of these land grabbing. The real problems are
1. what is the proper compensation for those people. There is no neutral organization to set the compensation standard.
2. The following settlement of the farmers who lost their land: the job opportunities promised by local gov were not as much as expected.
3. The environments damage followed
4. The land owership dispution. Theoratically, the gov owns all the land. But in fact, villages in neighbourhood may have different idea who "legally occupy" the land. This occupancy will decide who is entitled to the compensation. This is the most complicated problems because both sides may have been fighting for hundredes years. There were always dozen death as the result of each fight.

As per Niall Ferguson's findings there is virtually no rule of law in China when it comes to protection of property rights. The federal government is trying to show attempts to work on this issue but the actual corruption goes on at the local level and is difficult to control.

You can say corruption is involved in every case. The real problem is not corruption but the public has less interest to protect others property. It is a social problem.

 

[Energon]

Can you please provide the source of data of that 187000 mass conflicts from Renmin university? I am not doubt your honesty. There is just too many fake reports entitled with famous institutions made by those pro-democratic organizations, such as that "social stability maintenance expense".

The data was from a study commissioned by the Landsea rural developmental institute in conjunction with Renmin and MSU. A synopsis of the survey was also published on the CFR blog and the atlantic.

If this data is true, my second question is how the government silenced most of these people without making concession? With almost 700m internet users surfing online, it is really beyond imagination how CCP can control those mass conflicts pictures showed online? You have to keep this in mind: we also have thousands of overseas Chinese forum outside China. Why didn't we see it out here?

We've been through this before, no matter how you try to spin it, the CCP is an absolutist authoritarian government that has the power to tell its citizens to suck it. If there's any compromise it's on the government's terms. Also when the media outlet belongs to the government they clearly control the flow of information. Again, I don't know how this escapes you, but the Chinese establishment is unequivocally one of the most opaque organizations on the planet.

You also ironically highlight the second reason for why this issue gets brushed under the carpet, which is class warfare. Those 700 million netizens you mention are overwhelmingly urban residents (which probably also includes you). Land acquisitions are almost entirely utilized for China's rapid urbanization (look at the stats in that report), which means you have the freedom to indulge in magical thinking about what really happens while the farmer actually has to absorb the losses himself. Disclaimer: This is not my original thought, I attend academic lectures on China at a major university from time to time and I picked this up there . The way it works is by selectively compensating the most influential members of a community whose land has been taken over while screwing over the marginalized people and making sure that a mass movement does not gain steam.

Don't get me wrong. I am saying that there is no problem of these land grabbing. The real problems are
1. what is the proper compensation for those people. There is no neutral organization to set the compensation standard.
2. The following settlement of the farmers who lost their land: the job opportunities promised by local gov were not as much as expected.
3. The environments damage followed
4. The land owership dispution. Theoratically, the gov owns all the land. But in fact, villages in neighbourhood may have different idea who "legally occupy" the land. This occupancy will decide who is entitled to the compensation. This is the most complicated problems because both sides may have been fighting for hundredes years. There were always dozen death as the result of each fight.

All these points are the very definition of the lack of property rights, which is what I'm referring to in the first place.

You can say corruption is involved in every case. The real problem is not corruption but the public has less interest to protect others property. It is a social problem.

I don't know what exactly this means, but if you're trying to pass this off as a social problem you need to stop. This isn't a matter of an inter communal property dispute or some other social problem, this is entirely a situation where an absolutist government disregards property rights of its poorest citizens for its own means.