Discussion in 'Military History' started by Kunal Biswas, Jul 22, 2011.
Sir, are you making fun of their wives?
China-Vietnam Border War, 30 Years Later - Photo Essays - TIME
China-Vietnam Border War, 30 Years Later
As it was... China can't even win the border conflict with Vietnam which is very close to their homeland............. do they think it will be easier to attack a distant country like the Philippines? Even if they have the logistics, do they think they won't have to fight for every inch of Phil soil they will step into? We have fought many wars, even if we lost them, we took the enemy with us, we will not give them the dignity of dying from gunshot..... no way... we will kill them with the same brutality as we killed the Spaniards, the Americans and the Japanese using trusty bolos and knives.....
i seriouslly doubt china will ever invade philippine. most likely a navy war for the disputed island, even that is unlikely to happen. they much prefer the diplomacy route and soft power. been assertive/aggressive does not help them much.
but lets assume they do
china don't even has enough logistic/LPD for a successful taiwan invasion, so I doubt they have enough resource LPD etc to invade philippine.
china currently has the ability to land about 2-3 division(not enough), although people can argue china can use civilian ships to land their troops, provided they have the necessary air superioity and navy support.
as for the border conflict in 70s. you can't compare current chinese military vs then. its on a different level.
both navy, air force, and military doctrine changed since then. most chinese budget are into navy and airforce.
Next time we will directly nuke you or them, happy enough?
This one is info about China-Vietnam War in 1986 that I took a part and translate from "BÃªn tháº¯ng tráºn - Giáº£i phÃ³ng" author Huy Duc (Literal translation as "Winning Side - Liberation"), he used to be a journalist of "Tuoi Tre", an official newspaper of VN communist party, he write the truth which happen back there in VN since 1975 after the North force take control Saigon, this book is published oversea at USA, so there many thing that @coccafedang cant allow himself to give you. I also appologize to take your precious time for this gossip
After China withdrew all of their troop in 18-3-1979, two sides had 2 negotiations - 1st one, from 18-4 to 18-5-79 in Hanoi and the 2nd one, from 28-6-79 to 6-3-80, at Beijing - mostly is about war prisoners. Tran Quang Co (Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs) said: "From 1980 to 1988, we were sent letter to China nearly 20 times to make negotiation, they refused all. China want more conditions: about military, they request VN take troop back from Cambodia, about Politic, force VN to agree a coalition government in Cambodia, even included Red Khmer".
Only more than 1 year after their retreat, China return again. Keeping war at the North border not only make VN exhaust but also China help Anti-Viet Khmer groups which is flee and hiding near Thai border. Compare with what happen in 2-1979, Chinese force now is more tactical. 16-5-1984, only after 18 days, China take over 29 strategic poins thoughout VN border.
The first counter attack of VN's army begin at 11-6-1984, aim at stategic point 233, 685 but not success. The counter begin to extend more, 12-7-1984 but also fail. That is slow fight, which two side cant make more moves till 1-1985. There are some places, defense point of VN side near the Chinese def point only 6-8 meters; and some stratergics point that they seize and reseize 3-40 times cause of the difficult invironment.3-1985 China retake 4 main stratergic points in Quan Khu II (military area II), especially the area near Ha Giang border. this period had a highest death rate.
2-1979,when Deng Xiao Ping is fighting with VN, USSR have 56 divisions in the North of China but take no action. With this "behaviour", Deng Xiao Ping decide to "night-walk" (Take some hidden meeting) with Moscow, even he relize how bad shape of PLA, Deng decide not need to rush to modernize the army. But, hes till keeping the war happen in small size at the border, 1st to hold 800.000 VN troops, 2nd make a real battlefield for Chinese PLA to train themselves. In 1980s, nearly all the infantry force in China was sent to train in VN.
The war hold 3 corps, 11 divisions, 13 regiments and 70 independent battalions, make the number of VN's troop in the North and South to 1.6 milion. After Gorbachev take power in USSR, supply from USSR decrease rapidly. VN men in the North border experience a hardship cause of lacking of supply and stress the same way. Hanoi relize that they cannot hold the situation any longer.
"Political Solution for Cambodia" connect to "Neutralize the relationship with China" was set at 9-7-1986, before the death of Le Duan (Successor of Ho Chi Minh - and hates China the most). Conference was hold by Truong Chinh (one of key policians of VN communist party)."And thats not naturely show up" Tran Quang Co said. After that 20 days (28-7-1986), in Vladivodstock, Gorbachev declare that "USSR will closer to China, and solve "3 problems" that China wanted: Retreat from Afghanistan, End the conflict at USSR-China border, solution for Cambodia". Gorbachev said: "Cambodian problem cannot solve at some distance capitals, even in UN, but between VN and China - two neighbors communist country" (is it sound familiar? Lol)
"VN must withdraw the troop from Cambodia" used to set by China in 1st negotiations between USSR-China in 10-1982. After artillery operation and attack in a huge size thoughout the border from 4->6-1984 - China declare: VN only need to promise that withdraw from Cambo, then they will make contact again. 21-1-85, in a letter send to VN, Chinese Minister of Foreign Affairs, Wu Xue Qian wrote: "Viet-China relationship was bad, the main problem here that VN's Army invaded Cambodia... Only if VN declare the withdraw, then the negotiation will have it true meaning".
7-3-1987, nearly 3 weeks after Le Duc Anh gain position as Minister of Defence said: "Chine make conflict at border not mean to invade but they have another purpose". After the conference (up there ^), Le Duc Anh General was order: "Relocation the defensive position: Main force will take back, at the second line; move people there to live and make products, send military, local troops, and border infantry to 1st line". As he said this is a first exploration move to China".
At the beginning of 1987, VN began to lower the rate of "anti-China spread". Tran Quang Co said: "20-5-87, Foreign Affairs Dept, request to remove the first line in the constitution "China is directly a most dangerous enemy". Till 26-8-88, this request was passed".
20-5-1988, VN communist leaders was agree that "Neutralizing relationship with China is a hard process, very complicated and take time. After neutralizing, our relation can be return as good as what happen in 1950s, 1960s... Need to fix some wrong-ways idies, like only see Chine is greed of expansion, and violent, but dont see her as Communism, and only see her as Commusism, but dont see her as a threat (Very hard to understand here to me too even its vietnamese Lol, thats why you may see lot of strange VN behaviour to China nowaday)
At this point, Hanoi and Phnom Penh both relize that they can postpone the withdraw of VN's troops any longer. More and more time pass, Phnom Penh take many pressure from UN, even Phnom Penh leaders know clearly that without VN's troops, Pol Pot can take over Cambodia again, but if they are still here, the role of new Cambodia goverment (side with VN) will be seen as puppet. Finally they take their chance to control Cambodia by confronting their fearsome enemy alone.
5-1-1989, Nguyen Van Linh (Secretary General) went to Phnom Penh to join "7-1" annivesary, in the meetings at 6PM, as Heng Samrin advice, Nguyen Van Linh was fix the announcement which ready from VN. For 6-1-1989, 2 leader will declare: "VN will withdraw all troop, and the deadline is 9-1989 for any problem show up". Before their retreat, VN set 5 consulates in areas that have high chance that Red Khmer will make moves. These ambassadors instead of diplomats but vet officers
30-9-1989, 4 days after VN's last withdraw, Son Sann Force lauch an attack Thmar Ponk. 22-10-1989, Red Khmer seize Pailin and threat Battambang. Cambodian infantries in Pailin was pushed back. Phnom Penh request support and VN send a hidden troops to retake. Cambodian army see that VN till not abandon them, and Red Khmer also know that, so there is no more operation that make a real threat to Cambodia again
Declaration to withdraw troop from Cambodia in 1989 of VN was broken many stucking situation, Cambodia can be rebuild herself, China dont have any thing to blam and talk bad about VN in ASEAN, but till find way to harm VN, and make conflict in Truong Sa on 3-1988 (ASEAN as this book said when Sihanouk said to UN that us invading Cambidia, they call us dog-eater instead of welcoming just some times ago)
Few word: I try my best to translate it from V to E to the way that easiest to read and as my E is not good so enjoy it anyway, and feed back if you see any error info or where you dont get the ideals, that will help me a lot to improve the way to communicate with you guys
When you read at the end of this info about Cambodia, you may have some feeling that I the author praise VN so much but in truth its not, VN start invading Pol Pot to prenvent it go deep in VN's territory and randomly kill innocent people, so they help nowaday government control Cambodia just cause of their own benefic that can make peace in the South-West border for a long time, and that what this author mean when he wrote the last comment about Cambodia.
And last thing to say that, which VN gain from war like win China, USA, France, Japanese Nazi,...even ourselves is useless if you look in our country nowaday, its poor, diveded group of people, over-population city, corrupted, pollution, social problems, broken tradition, No generation ideology, bad economy,... and if you have chance to read the book, you will see how we die in peace time after 1975, concentration camp, Anti-Capitalist Campaign, Chance Currency, War which China and Cambodia, make million people must illegally flee oversea, and kill, rape, steal by nature, Thai pirates (truth that thai fishmen but use chance to make crime cause refugges bring along money to bride troops to get to Aus, USA, Canada,... Thai goverment take no action, many sad story, and inhuman spread thoughout VN community oversea), or dyind or get to prison for a long time cause "Betrayal the communist" by sea guards, Doom till 1986 by subsidy,...
In 1900s till here our history wrote by blood, madness, inhumanity, and sorrow, so the question here is if you see VN is so f***ing great in war and want to be like us, so are you ready to pay your people future for that?
@Wanderer Ironically now Cambodia tilts more toward China. All the factions incl. Hun Sen+Heng Samrin (erstwhile VN's allies against China) and the royalist (Sihanouk) are pro China, as evidenced in the recent ASEAN summit in Phnom Penh.
Thats another story but, well basicly after 1991 when VN dont involve to Cambodian decision anymore, they begin to get rid of communism, build their country as capitalism, open to the world... Cause most of leaders in their country was set in this positions by VN so they felt shame, and hatred along with grateful so they decided to erase any data about VN
Sihanouk was force to work along with Pol Pot even his family killed by Pol Pot, and where Sihanouk is at that time you all knew right? (he used to go to USA for help but "strangely" American reject it), "solution for Cambodia" it meant that China want to protect Red Khmer, which was hold near Thai border, and keeping make war in VN's South border with China help, their aim to make Cambodia become a pawn like North Korea nowaday (remember as @coccafedang's some previous posts, he wrote that China never want VN to be unite as one, just the same method, but differen country)
Cambodian goverment now is very smart indeed, they dont side with VN to piss China off and take good support from both sides, as long as their territory is not close with China so they dont affair much about to be hurt, and VN the same way dont like to force Cambodia to break the peace that they built in 1979, Cambodian leaders lived through the hardship of war, especially Hun Sen, Heng Samrin,... they surely know what they did, and make a good move there, just to assume that what happen if they side with Philippin and VN, they get almost nothing, China will hate them, VN just thank (Lol), everything in the world is not changed by that, not at all, and their country get nothing, even worse thats called puppet for VN by people or other parties...
@Wanderer then do get wary of China's ploy over the Grand Mekong Subregion
Further to Cambodia, China is getting a grip of Laos >> Laos China rail link - Australia Network News - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Look at the geography - seemingly Cambodia and Laos are being spun off the Indochine triad
@amoy, well, thats hard question Lol, but I hope this last time we discuss about these different topics
Laos is the most trusted and best ally VN ever had, I heard lots people tell good about Laotians in history book, TV channel, newspaper,... even in the internet, or asking people have Laotian friends, or just come back from Laos,... not even a single one that feels wrong about them. Bad thing is that both country are poor, and need to find way to grow, it will be very, very sad to the day that we force to harm each other.
I cant say for the future but we trust our best friend now, and believe that they are not easy to be a pawn for China like what happen to Pol Pot, even the hardship we spent together may be forgotten as time pass, but this connection never fade away... Hope all good things for Laotians
Have u @Wanderer seen the movie based on Marguerite Duras' book ã€ŠL'amantã€‹ that's staged in Saigon, starrted by Jane March and Tony Leung ï¼Ÿ
Even up to date there're still farms where Chinese Vietnamese were settled down who fled / expatriated to China after being ripped off. VN govmt wanted to get rid of Chinese economic dominance especially in the south (Saigon). Pham Van Dong' called Chinese diaspora "Jews in the Southeast Asia" and asked Indonesia, and Malaysia also to uproot Chinese communities, according to Lee Kwan Yew's memoir.
That in part triggered the 1979 retaliation.
It was natural and understandable for Le Duan to side with USSR after the Sino-Soviet confrontation. But he somehow ignored the geopolitical reality, and his ambition to build up an "Indochine Federation", which motivated the invasion of Cambodia, outstripped the strength of war-torn VN. . That's why once Le Duan was dead VN leadership rushed to repair relationship with China, of course at the dusk of Soviet Union the erstwhile patron.
@amoy, yep I knew about that movie, but at that time Im still underaged and forbid to watch that, but according to that movie and timeline, maybe you want to show the point that there many rich Chinese-Vietnamese at that time in the South VN right?
Yeah, I agree that in any countries that Chinese come to, they are easily to be rich, their bussiness ability is pretty good, hard work, and even a good friends if you more close to them thats the point of view of South VN goverment (Capitalism), and I met and felt that way to for them nowadays or even a lot of people, but the point here at 1975 when communism from the North take over the South, in these people mind, South people corrupted, and enslave by American, and need to educate about the rightous of communism, if you live in China, you may be know how crazy communists are
So they begin a lot of campaign to anti-capitalim, many rich people were aimed, even the one that help North leader are all judge as criminals, majority is Chinese-Vietnamese, but most of rich people in truth were flee abroad by help of US goverment before the fall of Saigon in 30-4-1975, these people left is people that trust communism comrades Lol
The fact here that, North goverment begin not to trust China since 1954 after Dien Bien Phu, when China force them not to take the South, and USSR at that time dont like VN affair is a beginning for WW3 break off... thats when HCM is still alive, he is a good diplomat, wised one (not as good as Gandhi) so he realize what China want is to make VN be a anti-capitalism yard like what happen to North Korea, but hes also know that North still need supply from China
After his death, Le Duan basically take his position, he is not good as a diplomat, when China "night-walk" (image it yourself Lol, my vocabulary is small) in 1972 to let US bombard North VN, he begin to rethink about China and change his attitude. After that incident, China goverment sent a ambassador (so lazy to find in the book Lol) to explain how they dont help Hanoi as Beijing promised, but Le Duan just ignored him, and then China-VN relationship break apart, as Le Duan said in his memoir, the ambassador that time is gentle, and he know that he made mistake, but late he get furious when he knew that all the things China tell him to do is what they secretly make dealt with American
And about USSR-China conflict, North's choice is neutral, and after these things above, in China point of view that seem likes they side with USSR
And about the Pol Pot, hes mad, at that time he though that time "culture revolution" that copied from USSR by VN and China, which killed many innocent people, is the best for his people to become a strongest communist nation in a world, he do more than that when he take control Phnom Penh after destroy Lon Nol goverment he force people out the capital, and enslave them in a new system that he create to make a stronger Cambodian socialty, and even convince that only need 1 or 2 millions people needed to rebuild Cambodia (~6-7 millions people at that time)
If you image how a Joker in Batman or some psychos rule a country, thats Cambodia in 1976, but in VN they dont know about it, they still think Pol Pot as friendly as a communism neighbour country, but Pol Pot was helped by China to again Sihanouk and a "Khmer-Chen" too, so he side with China to again USSR and VN, in 1976-1979, that Red Khmer goverment make moves at VN's Southwest border, even go deep in 10km, brutally kill innocent people in many inhumanity way like:
Ba Chuc Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
~3000 people killed, this is what they wrote in our wiki: "Most of the Victims was killed on 18-4, when a group of Red Khmer force people in schools, pagodas, then slaughter them, the survivers flee to mountain nearby but they were found out few days late, most of them died by shoting, behead, or slash to death. Most of women were raped, pile in their private part, childrent was stab by bayonet before be killed,...
Its just one in many thing Red Khmer do to us, and as long as their get support from China, also ignoring by US, so thats only big things when we begin to invade them Lol, but I dont hate Cambodians at that time, some of our man even my father go there, and return madness in eyes, to scare by what they did to their own people, 1.5-2.3 millions Cambodian people died at that time from royal family to normal people, in many gruesome ways more than what they did to us, and its not a joke to said that Cambodian people at that time feel joy when foreign troops show up in their country...,
To think Le Duan want to make "Indochine Federation", can you give me the source? I already have given info about this, its sad that you may not read it, but after 1979 when China retreated they lauch the second invasion in the North in 1984, thats to help Pol Pot and weak us from both side, but when Cambodian goverment grow strong and USSR abandon us, so netralize with China was set even before Le Duan death, no money no war lads,...
Thats when USSR retreat from Afganistan and they soon take over by Taliban (poor them), VN retreat from Cambodia, thats all, to think we aim to make a "Indochine Federation" while we can even feed ourselves at that time :shocked:, is that a joke?
NgÃ y 17/02 quÃ¢n Trung Quá»‘c táº¥n cÃ´ng Viá»‡t Nam
Hoa persecution intensified in the late 1970s, which was one of the reasons for the Sino-Vietnamese War.
Hoa people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
After capture of Lang Son Chinese troops took away Chinese previous aids Vietnamese hoarded as much as possible and destroyed the rest.
Among the more interesting facts about that time is that Chinese soldiers remained in northern Laos in 1972 and shot at American airplanes and troops supported by the US. Funny how the US celebrated the new friends in Beijing while Chinese soldiers killed Americans in Laos At the same time China refused to give a single SAM-2 missile to Vietnam to defend the capital Hanoi. The Chinese soldiers in Laos were needed to get supplies to Cambodia which already by that time was seen as more important to China than Vietnam.
What followed between 1972 and the end of the conflict in 1989 was an escalation up to a border war between 1979 and 1984, and after that a step by step withdrawl of Chinese units away from the Vietnamese border. China reduced its army by 1 million soldiers in 1985 and did not want to maintain a substantial percentage of its army just on the border with Vietnam.
As usual in such a conflict many nations had an influence on the final outcome including Afghanistan and the Soviet Union. But just looking at a map its obvious it has been and will be impossible for Vietnam to risk and win an armed conflict at a time in history when China is united.
That would be inappropriate,why would you need the pics of PLA pow by vietnam when someone Post Indian POWs of 1962 ?
We should post our own pics of POW if there are any not others, there is a PLA cementry in Arunanchal Pradesh at war memorial and also few captured weapons of Chinese from 1962.
For people interested in the details of this war the book below is the best on the subject in 2016.
"Deng Xiaoping's Long War: The Military Conflict between China and Vietnam, 1979-1991"
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