China syndrome: Why China is different from Middle East

[Ray]

my pride have nothing to do with it. Han was a powerful empire. these things happen. it is fact that Cantonese are basically born from the invasion of Han into what is now southern China. im not going to let you decide our identity for us.

The British were a powerful empire but these things did not happen in India wherein the whole population became British.

Neither did it happen wholesale during the Mughul Empire!

Neither did it happen during the Khanates or under the Manchus!

So, these thing just don't happen!

That is a lazy way to circumvent the truth or the facts.

I am no one to decide your identity.

History has clearly indicated the identity and no amount of obfuscation can change history.

The Chinese poster in the Chinese forum has clearly stated that it is no big deal to identify a Cantonese from a Han!

 

[Ray]

There is also an interesting twist to the whole issue, which is intriguing but worth learning about.

Even on the Yue issue, there is the view that the Yues 'vanished' so to say. It maybe true that they were totally assimilated by coercion, humiliation (where to be a Yue was degrading and embarrassing) or through intermarriage et al. Notwithstanding, one is curious to what happened to the Yue people since a race cannot vanish within the short spell of the timelines when viewed with the timelines of a race/ civilisation and that too when it is said that the Yues were a very talented lot with a great cultural heritage. A weak culture can vanish, but a flourishing culture to vanish is extraordinary and does invite interest to know how that happened.

I am not, for once, wanting to re-invent history or change anyone's identity. My aim is simple, I just want to know of the Han move southwards, why some were called barbarians and how and what pressures of civilisation caused races/ ethnic groups to 'vanish'.

China history forum has this to say on the Yues.

History of Yue People

Basically, during the spring/autumn and warring states period times, the people that dwelled in the southern region of what's called "Zhejiang", "Fujian", "Guangdong" provinces today and northern part of "Vietnam" are called "Yue" people. The Yue people are quite diverse and have many clans and tribal federation. The Yue people are considered by the civilized chinese of the central plain (中原) as uncivilized and therefore barbaric. Because of so many clans and tribes, the Yue people are also called the "Hundred Yue" (百越).

During the Spring/Autumn period, among the Yue people, the tribes that are more advanced and civilized will have to include the "Yue" (越) clan and " Gou Wu" (句吴) clan. During those times, they dwelled in the region of the lake Tai. The Yue clan founded the Yue state (in today's Zhejiang province region) while the Gou Wu established the Wu state (in today's Jiangsu province region). Later, the Wu state defeated the Yue state and the king of Yue, "Gou Jian" (勾践) had to rear horses for the king of Wu, "Fu Chai" (夫差). However, the king of Yue later gained trust from the king of Wu and he was allowed to return to Yue kingdom. Legend had it that after he returned to Yue kingdom, he worked very hard to make his kingdom strong. Finally after 10 years of hardwork, he finally defeated the Wu state. However, by the late Warring states period, the Kingdom of Yue was conquered by the Chu kingdom (one of the 7 strong states during the warring states period).

Although the Yue kingdom was conquered by the chu kingdom, the Yue people survived. The Yue people of former yue state and Wu state intermixed with the Hua Xia people (ancestors of Han-chinese) . After the warring states period, the "hundred Yue' term began to become popular. During the Western Han period, the people of the south were officially called "Hundred Yue". The "Yue" (越) could also referred to another Yue "粤" (which means "cantonese").

During the early Han dynasty period, the "Hundred Yue" were divided into "Eastern Ou" (东瓯), "Min Yue" (闽越), "Southern Yue" (南越), "Western Ou" (西瓯), "Luo Yue" (骆越) etc, main groups.

1. "Eastern Ou" (东瓯) - also known as "Ou Yue" (瓯越). They dwelled in the region of previous Yue and Wu state. (today's Zhejiang Wenzhou region)

2. "Min Yue" (闽越) - also within the region of previous Yue state (today's Fujiang province) - these were the ancestors of the "Min" chinese people today (who speaks Hokkien dialect)

3. "Southern Yue" (南越) - within the region of today's Guangdong province, later developed into the region of Guangxi province and its south part. They were the ancestors of cantonese today.

4. "Western Ou" (西瓯) - within the region of today's western part of Guangdong province and southern part of Guangxi province

5. "Luo Yue" (骆越) - today's north Vietnam region. The ancient Luo Yue people were the direct ancestors of today's Vietnamese. Today's vietnam in chinese is called "Yue Nan" (越南), which means south of Yue.

The above Yue people were all conquered by Emperor Han Wudi during his military expansion campaign of the south (I'll narrate this campaign in my next posts) and after that, these regions in the south became part of the Han provinces. After this conquest, the term "Hundred Yue" disappeared from the history records of the chinese. Some of the Yue people were sinificised and mixed with the Han-chinese. Some of the Yue people became the ancestors of today's "Gao Shan" ethnic
(高山族) in Taiwan. Another Yue faction became today's "Dai" ethnic (傣族) in southern China. Others became today's "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族), "Bu Yi" ethnic (布依族), "Tong" ethnic (侗族), "Shui" ethnic (水族) in Southern China.

Basically, today's "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族) and "Tong" ethnic (侗族) in South China were related to the polynesian people in south-east asia.

It is thus important to note that Yue was a generic term to referred to barbarian people of the south during warring states. The Southern Yue tribes/people were the ancestors of today's cantonese.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/211-who-were-the-cantonese-guandong-rentang-ren/

Who are the "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族), "Bu Yi" ethnic (布依族), "Tong" ethnic (侗族), "Shui" ethnic (水族) in Southern China and how are they Polynesians?

Here is more to add to the Smoke and Mirrors:

Dear Dr. Li,

Thank you very much for your quick response. I think we are nearer after
the change of opinion.

>I don't think one can exclude Yue from Guangdong population. Guangdong after
all IS still a Hundred Yue region even after the infusion of northern
people. And DEFINITELY we cannot exclude Yue from Chinese. Chinese is an
integrated name for all ethnic groups.

As illustrated by my figures, Yue was important before the arrival of Han
Chinese, say before the Tang dynasty. They were living in Guangdong for
thousands of years, but most of them were assimilated into Chinese after
the Song period. Nowadays there are some of them in the extreme Northwest
part of Guangdong as "Yao", "Zhuang" etc. Cantonese speakers, expecially
those around the Pearl River delta, has almost nothing to do with the old
Yue tribes. They are in broad sense (such as Mr. Chung's interpretation),
as "Hakka" as you and me. To exclude Cantonese from "borad sense Hakka" is
wrong.

>I do not agree in contrasting Cantonese with Hakka. This can be a very
dangeroous statement. We are not master of any region but an inhabitant of
a region that encompasses other ethnic groups, although Hakka may be more
concentrated in certain areas.

The contrast between Cantonese and Hakka was established only about 300
years ago, when Hakka speakers moved into the Cantonese speaking area for
new living space. Otherwise you can see no "Punti" and "Hakka" in
historical documents. I agree with you that the cantonese who identified
themselves as Punti was wrong, because they were also "immigrants", but it
is a usual practise for those who live there for more than three
generations to view themselves as natives. Just compare this sentiment with
the white people of USA. In this sense, we are at least native to Eastern
Guangdong. To treat our homeland as Northern plain is not practical and
dangerous. We don't want to claim any land in Henan or Shanxi because our
ancestor lived there a millennium ago.

The contrast between Cantonese and Hakka is artificial but it is now there.
This is an irony for you and me, who want to downgrade the dispute but want
to keep the difference. This is not a natural science discipline and you
cannot solve with scientic rations. We are looking for peaceful
coexistence, and as emphasised before, the only way is to respect each
other as equal groups. this can only be achieved by a Hakka province,
because of the Cantonese chavinism mentioned elsewhere. If we choose to
stay in Guangdong, there is little hope for our culture to survive
according to Chinese/Cantonese mentality.

>I never said that Guangdong was highly popuated. I said Guangdong was
quite developed compared to other parts of China even in the neolithic era.
It was
already developed before the infusion of northern Chinese. Chinese
culture/civilization seems to have multiple origins.

The expression "highly populated" is relative and depend on the
productivity. Yue was a clever people, but they were eventually either
chased away to other province, in the mountains or got assimilated into the
mainstream Chinese (Cantonese or Hakka) society. I do not see any
importance of their culture after the Song dynasty. The competition was
darwinistic and today only a few traces of their culture and language was
left. In the past few years, I published many papers to show that Modern
Cantonese had little to do with the Old Yue languages, and both Cantonese
and Hakka coincide well with the official tongue of Song dynasty, as
relected by the phonological book Guangyun (1006). I emphasize here once
more, Cantonese is Chinese, no Yue.

>It seems that I only have disagreement with you in this msg. But one thing
I do agree is we have to consider Hakka culture as an important element of
Chinese culture. But please do not think of it as the dominant culture or
the only culture. There is a subtle balance between preserving Hakka
culture and becoming a Hakka chauvinist.

That is good. We can exchange our ideas. I am doing everything to downgrade
any kind of chavinism. It is ouseless to preserve our culture without
considering the destruction from other people's chavinism. On the other
hand, Luo's view of Cantonese as genetically different from Hakka is also a
kind of chavinism.


I am sorry that I missed some words in a sentence in my last message. Here
my revised verion of my message again:



Dear Dr. Li,

Thank you very much for your comments.

The term Hakka is often abused among us. You can see in Mr. Chung's message
that follows you, he interprets "Hakka" as anyone who came from the north
irrespective of the date in the pasty two thousand years. This means:
except for the aboringinal Yue people, all "Chinese" are Hakka!!! "Chinese"
means Cantonese, Min, Hakka and other Chinese dialects speakers. This is
even broad than the sense of what Luo Xianglin wanted to bring.

I do not agree that Guangdong is already densely populted before the
arrival of Chinese (Cantonese and Hakka speakers), here are figures quoted
from a historical census by Liang Fangzhong (1980) for the Guangdong Province:

Table 1
Year AD2 AD140 AD464 AD742 AD820 AD980 1080 1180 1230
Population 242K 632K 212K 1.28M 67K 41.6K 2.6M 2.3M 2.0M

The figures shows that although Guangdong faced population blooms in
Eastern Han (AD140) and Middle Tang (AD742), it was NEVER densely populated
before the massive immigration at the beginning of the Song Dynasty
(AD980-1080). Note that it was strongly depopulated between Tang and Song
(AD820-980). The mass immigration from the north coincide with Luo's "Third
Wave". But one thing to remind is that these people concentrate themselves
in the Pearl River Delta, not Jiaying prefecture. From 980 to 1080,
Guangzhou's population rose from 8K to 64K, which is about one fourth of
the whole province. These people were definitely Chinese, not YUE. These
are also proved by their genealogical records. Even if you assume that ALL
the people left in Guangdong in AD980 are Yue (which is IMPOSSIBLE),
Chinese from the North are five times the aboringines in a matter of a
century. The case in Guangzhou is even more extreme. Therefore, it is
almost safe to say that the people are at least 83% Chinese in Guangdong at
the beginning. For Cantonese speakers (Guangzhou residents), their Chinese
blood should be more than 87.5%. Although it is more difficult to
calculate such figures for Hakka speakers, Zhao et al's report is a very
good reference (see bleow) to show that Hakka and Cantonese are more or
less the same in human genetics.

If we cannot distinguish Cantonese from YUE, then we are not in a good
position to study Hakka. Please read the paper by Zhao et al, 1991 (Acta
genetica sinica, [Yichuan Xuebao], 18(2), 97-108). They showed that among
blood samples in 74 locations, Guangzhou is most similar to Meixian in the
immunoglobins, a reliable indicator of the relatedness.

Even if you don't like it, I would conclude that both Cantonese and Hakka
speakers are blood-related, but bloodily spearated. We were brothers of the
Tang tribe, but view each other as barbarians. The only different between
Cantonese and Hakka lies in the mentality: Cantonese emphasise that they
are master of Guangdong, but we are misled to think that our homes are in
the far north.

Don't view your Cantonese brothers as barbarians, they are not YUE, they
are as Chinese as you and me. Love your neighbour, teach your children that
we are the master of Eastern Guangdong, or a future Jiaying Province.
Claiming a separate province will end the dispute, otherwise we will be
force-assimilated. In 2200 there will be hardly any people speaking our
tongue.

Liu Zinfad
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/in...ntonese-and-hakkas-are-closest-to-each-other/

Therefore, it does add to the mystery and one wonders what happened to the Yues.

And what is the correct position on the issue.

Hopefully, without a confrontationist attitude or deliberate obfuscation we can be educated.

Once again, I will reiterate that I am looking for answers, with links, and not trying to prove any point since it does not affect me in any way except that I would be denied in my quest to know the evolution of peoples.

While at finding out about the Yues, one learnt of others too. Here is such an interesting one:

The Lanna Thai
From Greg Cruey,

Northern Thailand's History and People
The Northern Thai, or Lan Na Thai as they call themselves, are a mesmerizing and hospitable people.

The term "Lanna" carries a handful of connotations. Today the most important one is ethnic in nature. The Lanna Thai have a unique ethnic identity within the framework of the 100 million or so people who might be described as Tai. There are about 6 million Lanna.

Some perspective should be given to the position of the Lanna Thai within the Tai world. The world of the Tai stretches from Thailand's border with Malaysia in the south to as far north as Sichuan Province, China; from Hainan Island, China, in the East to Assam, India in the West. The Lanna Thai are the fourth largest of the two dozen or so ethnic group that fit culturally and linguistically under the Tai umbrella.
Sponsored Links

Three groups of ethnic Tai have larger populations than the Lanna. There are between 20 and 25 million Central Thai (often simply referred to as "Thai") living in and around Bangkok; they were called Siamese in the past. There are also between 20 and 25 million Northeastern Thai - a group that includes ethnic Lao in Laos and is sometimes referred to as Isan or Isarn. About 16 million Zhuang live in Guangxi Province, China; the Zhuang are the largest official minority group in China.

After the Lanna Thai, there are a number of other ethnic Tai groups that top the half million mark. Among them:

* the 5 million Southern Thai living mainly in the Kra Isthmus; they are about 30% Muslim.
* the 3 million Shan in Myanmar.
* the 2.5 million Dong in Guizhou, Hunan, and Guangxi provinces in China.
* the 2 million Bouyei in China's Guizhou Province.
* the 1.2 million Tay in Vietnam.
* the 750,000 Li on Hainan Island in China.
* the 700,000 Nung in Vietnam.
* the 500,00 Tai Dam (or "Black Tai") in Vietnam.

Many of the smaller ethnic groups in the Tai world are best described as tribal.

The term Lanna also carries historical meanings. The Lanna kingdom began in 1259 AD. In some ways Lanna, like other Thai principalities, was an indirect beneficiary of the Mongol conquest of China. The Chinese had traditionally promoted weak vassal states on their borders as a way of ensuring internal security and had demanded tribute from these vassals. The Vietnamese, the Khmer of Angkor, the Pyu of Bagan in northern Burma all had kingdoms that bordered China. None would submit to Mongol domination. The Mongol rulers of China spent a lot of energy trying to force the issue - and ultimately failed, but weakened these states in the process.

The Mongols did succeed in 1253 in conquering the Tai Kingdom on Nanzhao (sometimes Nan Chao, or the Dali Kingdom) in modern Yunnan Province, China. In 1287 the Mongols destroyed Bagan, the capital of the Lanna's rival, the Pyu of Northern Burma. One result of these Mongol victories was a new migration of ethnic Tai people south into modern Thailand. Nanzhao was the oldest Tai political entity, having been around since 738 AD; immigrants from there greatly enriched the younger cultures of the Lanna and Sukhothai kingdoms. Sukhothai was the first of the major Central Thai kingdoms. It became a vassal of another Central Thai kingdom, Ayutthaya, in 1378.

During the 15th and 16th centuries the Lanna Thai were able to fill a power vacuum in the mountains of Southeast Asia. The Mongols had been replaced by the Ming Emperors in China in 1368. Ming rule was isolationist - they left their vassals alone. The Lanna Kingdom was thus able to extend its influences (and sometimes its actual rule) inland over northern Burma, Laos, Yunnan, and northern Vietnam. For most of this period the Lanna Kingdom's capital was Chiang Mai, though some rulers preferred the city of Chiang Rai.

By the middle of the 15th Century the Lanna Kingdom had begun to decline in power. In the 1550's the Burmese captured both Chiang Mai and the Central Thai capital of Ayutthaya. The Burmese and the Central Thai competed for control of north Thailand until the early 1800's. From 1776 to 1791 Chiang Mai was actually deserted because of these wars. But although the Lanna Kingdom fell into relative obscurity, it continued to exist. The Central Thai installed a Viceroy in Chiang Mai to help the Lanna royal family rule the kingdom in 1877. The kingdom was formally annexed by Bangkok in 1892 during the reign of the Lanna King Phra Chao Inthawichayanon. The last Lanna king, Chao Keo Naovarat, died in 1939 and was replaced by an appointed governor from Bangkok.

History being what it is, Thai school children learn that their national history began in Sukhothai in 1238 AD. The Lanna Kingdom, which was started about the same time, lasted four or five hundred years longer than Sukhothai, and controlled a much larger territory before (like Sukhothai) it was swallowed by Ayutthaya, gets just a footnote. Lanna Thai history is the story of what might have been – a united Thai world stretching from Phuket to almost Hong Kong and inland to the edges of Tibet. But history is what it is"¦

http://www.laospirit.com/showthread.php?t=751

and

According to the Internet Movie Base, the Chinese Tongs have been an integral element of violence and mystery in 140 motion pictures in China and the United States. Interestingly, the first American film on the subject,The War of the Tongs, was released in 1917. In 1985, Year of the Dragon provoked a great deal of controversy in its portrayal of a racist white cop (Mickey Rourke) battling hordes of evil Chinese gang members. The greatest flaw in the motion picture was blending Chinese gangs, the Tongs, and the Triad into one massive "Chinese Mafia" kind of amalgamated crime organization. In actuality, although the gangs exist, they are separate from the Tongs, a survivor of the protective societies of ancient times, and the Triad, a recent element of organized crime that grew out of the Tongs.

The first Tong in America is believed to have originated in San Francisco in 1874. Essentially, the Tong (which originally meant "parlor") was a merchants' protective association created to defend themselves against brutal treatment directed at them by the white inhabitants of the city. Eventually, the Tong became powerful enough to sell "protection" to the newer merchants and to establish illegal gambling halls. Success in extortion and gambling led to an extension of activities into opium distribution and prostitution.

Although in 1880 the Chinese population in New York City was only around 800, the first Tong was established there in that year. By 1890, a rush of immigration increased the total to 13,000 Chinese in the city, and the Tong was ready to exploit a population isolated by language, culture, and prejudice. In 1900, rival Tongs ignited a series of Tong wars that lasted intermittently until the 1930s. It was at that time that the larger American public became fully aware of the Tong warriors with their chain mail shirts and hatchets.

Like so many secret societies, the origins of the Triad Tong have been lost in the lore of legend. According to some students of the Tongs, in 1647 a community of monks who lived in the Fukien Province of China had become masters in the art of war. When a foreign prince invaded China, the emperor sent 138 of these monks to throw out the invading forces. After three months of bitter fighting, they routed the enemy and returned to their monastery laden with gifts and honors from the grateful emperor.

While the monks were content to resume their lives of contemplation, some of the emperor's ministers were jealous of the favors he had bestowed upon them and persuaded him that the monks were deceptively planning a rebellion. Fearful of their martial arts skills, the emperor decided to attack the monks without warning and sent a strong force of the Imperial Guard, armed with gunpowder, to destroy the monastery. It was said the flames ignited by the blasts soared up to heaven, where they were seen by the Immortals who, perceiving the injustice being dealt the monks, came down to Earth and pushed aside one of the monastery's huge walls, enabling 18 monks to escape. Most of them were so badly burned that they soon died, and the surviving five escaped from the Imperial troops by miraculous means.

After many ordeals the five monks came to a city in Fukien Province where they founded a Tong whose aim was to overthrow the emperor who had betrayed their loyalty. That Tong exists today as the Triad Tong, and the five monks who founded it, according to the legend, are known as the Five Ancestors. Although the revolt against the emperor failed, the survivors scattered throughout China and established five Provincial Grand Lodges, each led by one of the five monks.


Initiation into the Triad Society is based on a blood ceremony. First, the ancient Five Heroes are invoked by an "Incense Master" who offers libations of tea and wine. The candidate for initiation is challenged at the entrance to the lodge by guards carrying razor-edged swords. He is allowed to enter only after answering a series of ritual questions as he crawls under crossed swords. Once inside the lodge, the initiate participates in a lengthy reenactment of the traditional ordeals of the Five Ancestors, swears 36 oaths, and learns his first secret signs. Then a rooster is brought in and beheaded, a warning to the initiate that he will suffer the same fate if he betrays the Tong. Finally, he drinks a mixture of blood, wine, cinnabar, and ashes. In times past, the blood used to be drawn from the initiate and other members of the lodge. Today the blood is generally that of the slaughtered rooster.

The blood oaths that were so favored by the Tongs originated with the Yellow Turbans, one of the earliest and most mystical societies in China. Founded in the middle of the second century in northeast China, the Yellow Turbans revered Chang Cheuh, a great healer and magician, as a savior of the nation against the despotic Han dynasty. Cheuh's society soon numbered so many thousands that he needed 36 generals to lead the rebellion that conquered the entire north of China within less than a month. Three of Chang Cheuh's disciples have been credited with taking the first blood oath when each of them slit open a vein, filled a vessel with blood, and drank the mixture of their vital fluid while vowing eternal brotherhood. This basic blood oath ceremony, with many variations, became an integral part of Tong ritual.

In the summer of 1900, the notorious Boxer Tong drove more than 3,000 people— mainly European missionaries, their families, and Chinese Christian converts—into the legation district of Peking. The siege had been provoked by the terror tactics of the Tong, which had been given almost a free hand by the Manchu government to free the nation from the foreign imperialists whom they accused of exploiting the Chinese people. "Boxer" was the Western name for this Tong, derived from its symbol of a clenched fist. The true name of the Tong was "I Ho Chuan," which means the Tong of "The Fists of Righteous Harmony."

The Boxers believed that they could achieve the righteousness of their cause by force, and they depended greatly on supernatural elements to aid them in achieving invulnerability. They employed rituals compounded of self-hypnotism, mass-hysteria, and drugs. At the height of their ceremonies, the initiates reached a state of frenzy wherein they would smash their clenched fists against unyielding surfaces until the blood flowed from broken knuckles. Then after a period of spasmodic twitching, foaming at the mouth and screaming hysterically, they would roll about on the ground until they became unconscious. At this point, they were led into the Inner Temple to be taught the magical secrets of the Tong and to receive their power of invulnerability against death at the hands of a foreigner. The imparting of invulnerability was followed by the blood oath of the Tong, in which each initiate drank a measure of blood.

Initially the violence of the Boxers was directed against small Christian missionary outposts, especially in the Shantung province. The Empress Dowager, who became a regent after forcing her nephew from the throne, had encouraged the attacks. On her orders, Imperial officers were ordered to assist the Tong during the 55-day siege against the foreign legations. However, even before the various nations whose citizens were under attack sent relief forces to capture the city and squelch the rebellion, many Imperial soldiers had already deserted the Boxers and were starting to fight against them from the ranks of other Tongs.

The Triad reached the United States with the mass of Chinese workers who immigrated to the west coast during the gold rush fever of the 1840s. Bewildered in a strange land and mercilessly exploited by people who had hired them as common laborers, the Chinese immigrants welcomed the protection provided by the Triads that sprang up among their communities, hiding behind the fronts of innocent social clubs. Among the first of the Triads to establish itself in the United States was the so-called "Five Companies," named after the five districts of China. Once it had established itself, it began to exploit the same Chinese population it had previously protected.

The main nerve-center of the Triad was— and remains—Hong Kong. There are seven main branches, each with its own area of influence and working independently of the others. Although its influence on the course of Chinese politics has been considerable, the Triad has never been unduly concerned about which government happens to be in power.
http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Secret-Societies/The-Tongs.html

 

[JustForLaughs]

The British were a powerful empire but these things did not happen in India wherein the whole population became British.

Neither did it happen wholesale during the Mughul Empire!

Neither did it happen during the Khanates or under the Manchus!

So, these thing just don't happen!

That is a lazy way to circumvent the truth or the facts.

I am no one to decide your identity.

History has clearly indicated the identity and no amount of obfuscation can change history.

The Chinese poster in the Chinese forum has clearly stated that it is no big deal to identify a Cantonese from a Han!

then you need to learn better history. look up who the Cham were and ask the Viet what happened to them.

history has, and you need to learn it and get it though your head. Cantonese are Han, not Yue.

 

[JustForLaughs]

There is also an interesting twist to the whole issue, which is intriguing but worth learning about.

Even on the Yue issue, there is the view that the Yues 'vanished' so to say. It maybe true that they were totally assimilated by coercion, humiliation (where to be a Yue was degrading and embarrassing) or through intermarriage et al. Notwithstanding, one is curious to what happened to the Yue people since a race cannot vanish within the short spell of the timelines when viewed with the timelines of a race/ civilisation and that too when it is said that the Yues were a very talented lot with a great cultural heritage. A weak culture can vanish, but a flourishing culture to vanish is extraordinary and does invite interest to know how that happened.

I am not, for once, wanting to re-invent history or change anyone's identity. My aim is simple, I just want to know of the Han move southwards, why some were called barbarians and how and what pressures of civilisation caused races/ ethnic groups to 'vanish'.

China history forum has this to say on the Yues.



Who are the "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族), "Bu Yi" ethnic (布依族), "Tong" ethnic (侗族), "Shui" ethnic (水族) in Southern China and how are they Polynesians?

Here is more to add to the Smoke and Mirrors:




Therefore, it does add to the mystery and one wonders what happened to the Yues.

And what is the correct position on the issue.

Hopefully, without a confrontationist attitude or deliberate obfuscation we can be educated.

Once again, I will reiterate that I am looking for answers, with links, and not trying to prove any point since it does not affect me in any way except that I would be denied in my quest to know the evolution of peoples.

While at finding out about the Yues, one learnt of others too. Here is such an interesting one:



and

"The above Yue people were all conquered by Emperor Han Wudi during his military expansion campaign of the south (I'll narrate this campaign in my next posts) and after that, these regions in the south became part of the Han provinces. After this conquest, the term "Hundred Yue" disappeared from the history records of the chinese. Some of the Yue people were sinificised and mixed with the Han-chinese."



"As illustrated by my figures, Yue was important before the arrival of Han
Chinese, say before the Tang dynasty. They were living in Guangdong for
thousands of years, but most of them were assimilated into Chinese after
the Song period. Nowadays there are some of them in the extreme Northwest
part of Guangdong as "Yao", "Zhuang" etc. Cantonese speakers, expecially
those around the Pearl River delta, has almost nothing to do with the old
Yue tribes. "

From 980 to 1080,
Guangzhou's population rose from 8K to 64K, which is about one fourth of
the whole province. These people were definitely Chinese, not YUE. These
are also proved by their genealogical records. Even if you assume that ALL
the people left in Guangdong in AD980 are Yue (which is IMPOSSIBLE),
Chinese from the North are five times the aboringines in a matter of a
century. The case in Guangzhou is even more extreme. Therefore, it is
almost safe to say that the people are at least 83% Chinese in Guangdong at
the beginning. For Cantonese speakers (Guangzhou residents), their Chinese
blood should be more than 87.5%.



good. i think it is quite clear now that Cantonese are NOT Yue. what further proof you need when even the people who invented and placed the term on these people even stopped using it all those centuries ago.

 

[JustForLaughs]

LOL you bring up the Mongol chasing Tai away. when earlier you said others dont do the same like Han did to Yue?

Tai ethnic (relation with Thai and Lao peoples) apparently have connection to Zhuang ethnic. if you want to do serious discussion, using the ethnic group they are makes more sense than Yue. because as i keep telling you for the millionth time, Yue means nothing. one of your links say Zhuang has connection to Yue. well so does Viet and Cantonese. so now cantonese, viet, thai and lao are the same people?

what a joke. Yue is unreliable at best. many times confirmed. it is a loose term to call a group of people labeling them barbarians. it isnt an identity they had or wanted. if you respect their culture so much stop using a Chinese derogatory term for them. use their actual tribal group names.

thai/lao connect to Zhuang and i think dai. cantonese are han. viet is viet (also have ethnic relation in China. forgot what it was though). hmong relate to miao.

 

[amoy]

Frankly a bit lost in your debate. Han itself is a big collection consisting of many subgroups of different origins. Cantonese, naturally, look different from other subgroups (linguistically, physically - complexion, height...), just like Tamils' appearance is different fm Hindustanis (also on basis of Aryan invasion theory... Caste, Varna...)

King Zhao Tuo is regarded, in Vietnamese history books, spelled Trieu Da, as the founder of the 1st 'Viet' Kingdom.

 

[Ray]

then you need to learn better history. look up who the Cham were and ask the Viet what happened to them.

history has, and you need to learn it and get it though your head. Cantonese are Han, not Yue.

Chams were also on the East Coast of China. Telegu inscriptions have been found. Telegu is not a Chinese language.

So, who are the Cantonese? The Chinese history forum including Dr Li, are lost cases compared to you? Are you a historian or are you the type fed on old wives tales?

And do forgive me, but I daresay I can believe a modicum of what you have to say. Chinese are good at reinventing history to suit their purpose.

97% of Chinese are Hans!!!!!!!!

It means all other races simply 'vanished into thin air'!!!!

If they were assimilated, by force or otherwise, it is nothing but unmitigated 'ethnic cleansing'. Admit that at least. It can't be that races and people just vanished!!

Cantonese are as much Hans as let us say the Aborigines of Taiwan !!

I am willing to accept that Cantonese are Hans, provided you can explain how the originals of Southern China and Hong Kong 'vanished into thin air' and the vacuum was filled by the Hans.

Or is it that because the originals were taken to be barbarians, that it embarrassing to claim descent?

 

[Ray]

LOL you bring up the Mongol chasing Tai away. when earlier you said others dont do the same like Han did to Yue?

Tai ethnic (relation with Thai and Lao peoples) apparently have connection to Zhuang ethnic. if you want to do serious discussion, using the ethnic group they are makes more sense than Yue. because as i keep telling you for the millionth time, Yue means nothing. one of your links say Zhuang has connection to Yue. well so does Viet and Cantonese. so now cantonese, viet, thai and lao are the same people?

what a joke. Yue is unreliable at best. many times confirmed. it is a loose term to call a group of people labeling them barbarians. it isnt an identity they had or wanted. if you respect their culture so much stop using a Chinese derogatory term for them. use their actual tribal group names.

thai/lao connect to Zhuang and i think dai. cantonese are han. viet is viet (also have ethnic relation in China. forgot what it was though). hmong relate to miao.

Unlike your dishonest approach, I have put across all views that are there, including those which are contrary to what I have projected from various Chinese links and scholarly tomes.

I am not here to prove or disprove anything.

I am here to know what is the fact and that too authentic facts, inspite of the various complications that are thrown up, and not wild old wives tales carried through generations to wipe out the shame of being labelled as barbarians.

In fact Cantonese is being replaced with Mandarin as Cantonese (in the US) is taken to be crude and the language of the lower classes!

I believe there is also a saying, liang guang ho zi, meaning two wide monkeys, referring to the ugliness of people from Guang Dong and Guang Xi.

Here is how the Chinese view the Cantonese

How are Cantonese people viewed?


Southern Yue tribes whom the Han Chinese from the northern China conquered.

You are a half caste, make your mind up

Chao Ren VFP
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=675326


If they, the Chinese themselves, have this type of a view, then why are you getting so worked up?

I am merely trying to look for the truth through this maze and I am quoting Chinese links and scholarly tomes.

Doctor, heal thyself and diagnose the ailment!!

 

[Ray]

For Cantonese speakers (Guangzhou residents), their Chinese
blood should be more than 87.5%.

A magic figure = 87.5%?


How was this magic percentage arrived at?

What is the scientific background to it?

Or is it 'Thus Spake, the CCP'!

Same silly claptrap line like Mao was 70% right and 30% wrong?

Have you all mortgaged your brains, intelligence and honesty to the CCP?

 

[BackToEast]

What is Ray trying to do is :
Ancient China & Chinese =CCP
Chinese History is created ,all the chinese are liars.

Is this the only goodness brought by the so called democratic education?

 

[Ray]

Ray is saying:

All Chinese No Lairs.

CCP also No Liars.

They are only cleverly distorting the truth!!

Like Mao is 70% right and 30% wrong.

Ray is asking how come CCP come to this exact figure?

What science it follows?

Ray thunderstruck that Cantonese speakers (Guangzhou residents), have to have their Chinese blood more than 87.5%.

Why not 86.999 Ray asking.

If 86.999, Ray wants to know what are they becoming?

Cantonese, Hakka or people on a trip to Makka?

Democracy does not buy Man's Mind to be Parrot to squawk what Government say!

That is the difference, Ray feels, between Democracy and Communism controlled people.

Democracy say have independent mind and not be clones of Government since Govt propaganda can be done by loudspeakers.

Ray and Democracy say - be human and not loudspeakers!

Democracy say have education and use it to THINK INDEPENDENTLY and not be Pavlovian canines!

 

[JustForLaughs]

Chams were also on the East Coast of China. Telegu inscriptions have been found. Telegu is not a Chinese language.

So, who are the Cantonese? The Chinese history forum including Dr Li, are lost cases compared to you? Are you a historian or are you the type fed on old wives tales?

And do forgive me, but I daresay I can believe a modicum of what you have to say. Chinese are good at reinventing history to suit their purpose.

97% of Chinese are Hans!!!!!!!!

It means all other races simply 'vanished into thin air'!!!!

If they were assimilated, by force or otherwise, it is nothing but unmitigated 'ethnic cleansing'. Admit that at least. It can't be that races and people just vanished!!

Cantonese are as much Hans as let us say the Aborigines of Taiwan !!

I am willing to accept that Cantonese are Hans, provided you can explain how the originals of Southern China and Hong Kong 'vanished into thin air' and the vacuum was filled by the Hans.

Or is it that because the originals were taken to be barbarians, that it embarrassing to claim descent?

goodness, you dont even read your own links? seriously, what is wrong with you?

1. countless times the fate of the Yue in southern China is repeated for you. you even post links that explain it. Cantonese are created from the Han invasion of southern China.

2. you have even posted links that certain ethnics like the Zhuang are linked to Yue. when are you going to get it through your head, nobody has Yue identity today.

3. Yue was a loose term used to describe a bunch of people that had no single group or identity. if they had, it was from either being labeled as barbarians by Han OR actually conquered under Nanyue. either way, if you accept the legitimacy of the label, then you must follow the historic usage of those who created it. and that term stopped being in use after they were conquered. it was a term with next to zero meaning in the first place. yet you try, in vain, to create some sort of group identity to it. its a lost cause.

 

[JustForLaughs]

Unlike your dishonest approach, I have put across all views that are there, including those which are contrary to what I have projected from various Chinese links and scholarly tomes.

I am not here to prove or disprove anything.

I am here to know what is the fact and that too authentic facts, inspite of the various complications that are thrown up, and not wild old wives tales carried through generations to wipe out the shame of being labelled as barbarians.

In fact Cantonese is being replaced with Mandarin as Cantonese (in the US) is taken to be crude and the language of the lower classes!

I believe there is also a saying, liang guang ho zi, meaning two wide monkeys, referring to the ugliness of people from Guang Dong and Guang Xi.

Here is how the Chinese view the Cantonese

How are Cantonese people viewed?


Southern Yue tribes whom the Han Chinese from the northern China conquered.

You are a half caste, make your mind up

Chao Ren VFP
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=675326


If they, the Chinese themselves, have this type of a view, then why are you getting so worked up?

I am merely trying to look for the truth through this maze and I am quoting Chinese links and scholarly tomes.

Doctor, heal thyself and diagnose the ailment!!

whos dishonest? its your own sources i quoted back to you.

i have never once care whether races vanish for Han to survive. im telling you, Cantonese are Han, not Yue. i have explained, in depth, the history of Cantonese. i explained the meaning and usage of the Yue term.

there is ONE reason you keep insisting on placing Cantonese under Yue term and it was because you read they were labeled barbarians. unfortunately for you your conclusion was based out of ignorance so it had zero insulting effect, but plenty of amusing shock and annoyance now. so congrats for that i suppose.

you pretend to come off as someone innocently looking out for these people who suffer unfortunate fate. but you dont care about them. why do you keep using our derogatory word for them then? dont care enough to find out their real identities?

 

[JustForLaughs]

Ray, the day you find Cantonese was one of the BaiYue ill accept Yue identity. once again though, better find out how Cantonese were created and when Guangdong begin to exist, terms and all.

oh wait, i explained all this already. well, goodluck anyway.

 

[JustForLaughs]

i really dont know why i have to go this far to get this through your head. but w/e.




time for DNA, since history wont set you straight:

"Y-chromosome haplogroup O3 is a common DNA marker in Han Chinese, as it appeared in China in prehistoric times. It is found in more than 50% of Chinese males, and ranging up to over 80% in certain regional subgroups of the Han ethnicity.[26] However, the mitochondrial DNA of Han Chinese increases in diversity as one looks from northern to southern China, which suggests that some male migrants from northern China married with women from local peoples after arriving in Guangdong, Fujian, and other regions of southern China.[27][28] Despite this, tests comparing the genetic profiles of northern Han, southern Han and southern natives determined that haplogroups O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in southern natives, were only observed in some southern Hans (4% on average), but not in northern Hans. Therefore, this proves that the contribution of southern natives in southern Hans is limited.[10] In contrast, there are consistent strong genetic similarities in the Y chromosome haplogroup distribution between the southern and northern Chinese population, and the result of principal component analysis indicates almost all Han populations form a tight cluster in their Y chromosome. Additionally, the estimated contribution of northern Hans to southern Hans is substantial in both paternal and maternal lineages and a geographic cline exists for mtDNA. As a result, the northern Hans are the primary contributors to the gene pool of the southern Hans. However, it is noteworthy that the expansion process was dominated by males, as is shown by a greater contribution to the Y-chromosome than the mtDNA from northern Hans to southern Hans. These genetic observations are in line with historical records of continuous and large migratory waves of northern China inhabitants escaping warfare and famine, to southern China. Aside from these large migratory waves, other smaller southward migrations also occurred during almost all periods in the past two millennia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese

even DNA analysis prove what i keep repeating again and again. we are Han.

 

[JustForLaughs]

On the paternal side, southern Hans and northern Hans share
similar frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroups (Supplementary
Table 2), which are characterized by two haplogroups carrying the
M122-C mutations (O3-M122 and O3e-M134) that are prevalent
in almost all Han populations studied (mean and range: 53.8%,
37–71%; 54.2%, 35–74%, for northern and southern Hans, respectively).
Haplogroups carrying M119-C (O1* and O1b) and/or
M95-T (O2a* and O2a1) (following the nomenclature of the Y
Chromosome Consortium) which are prevalent in southern
natives, are more frequent in southern Hans (19%, 3–42%) than
in northern Hans (5%, 1–10%). In addition, haplogroups
O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in
southern natives17, were only observed in some southern Hans
(4% on average), but not in northern Hans. Therefore, the contribution
of southern natives in southern Hans is limited, if we assume
that the frequency distribution of Y lineages in southern natives
represents that before the expansion of Han culture that started
2,000 yr ago5. The results of analysis of molecular variance
(AMOVA) further indicate that northern Hans and southern
Hans are not significantly different in their Y haplogroups
(FST ¼ 0.006, P . 0.05), demonstrating that southern Hans bear
a high resemblance to northern Hans in their male lineages.

On the maternal side, however, the mtDNA haplogroup distribution
showed substantial differentiation between northern Hans
and southern Hans (Supplementary Table 3).


http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

apparently DNA analysis confirm my so called old wife tale. lucky me and amazing coincidence? or on another side, my relatively (especially compare to you) accurate history knowledge was right and this is no surprise.

 

[Ray]

Ray, the day you find Cantonese was one of the BaiYue ill accept Yue identity. once again though, better find out how Cantonese were created and when Guangdong begin to exist, terms and all.

oh wait, i explained all this already. well, goodluck anyway.

When you wipe out and exterminate a race and when you forcibly assimilate them by forcing marriage, and thereafter concoct history, then what can one say?

i really dont know why i have to go this far to get this through your head. but w/e.

I don't think you have to get personal. It does show bad upbringing and a touch of a barbaric and vulgar instinct!

I do have a head. And within it, there is intelligence to sift the wheat from the chaff wherein one does not swallow hook, line and sinker, concoctions purveyed and aggrandised by an arrogant race (the Hans) who humiliated people by calling them barbarians and adding animal suffixes to their names so much so they were ashamed of their own heritage and through the ingenuous manner of the Hans converted to being Hans.

We are seeing the genocide of a race even in contemporary China in Tibet and Xinjiang! The facts are too stark and real and closer to time to deny with concoctions that the Han specialises in!

time for DNA, since history wont set you straight:

"Y-chromosome haplogroup O3 is a common DNA marker in Han Chinese, as it appeared in China in prehistoric times. It is found in more than 50% of Chinese males, and ranging up to over 80% in certain regional subgroups of the Han ethnicity.[26] However, the mitochondrial DNA of Han Chinese increases in diversity as one looks from northern to southern China, which suggests that some male migrants from northern China married with women from local peoples after arriving in Guangdong, Fujian, and other regions of southern China.[27][28] Despite this, tests comparing the genetic profiles of northern Han, southern Han and southern natives determined that haplogroups O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in southern natives, were only observed in some southern Hans (4% on average), but not in northern Hans. Therefore, this proves that the contribution of southern natives in southern Hans is limited.[10] In contrast, there are consistent strong genetic similarities in the Y chromosome haplogroup distribution between the southern and northern Chinese population, and the result of principal component analysis indicates almost all Han populations form a tight cluster in their Y chromosome. Additionally, the estimated contribution of northern Hans to southern Hans is substantial in both paternal and maternal lineages and a geographic cline exists for mtDNA. As a result, the northern Hans are the primary contributors to the gene pool of the southern Hans. However, it is noteworthy that the expansion process was dominated by males, as is shown by a greater contribution to the Y-chromosome than the mtDNA from northern Hans to southern Hans. These genetic observations are in line with historical records of continuous and large migratory waves of northern China inhabitants escaping warfare and famine, to southern China. Aside from these large migratory waves, other smaller southward migrations also occurred during almost all periods in the past two millennia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese

even DNA analysis prove what i keep repeating again and ag

ain. we are Han.[/QUOTE]

Check the coloured/ highlighted parts of the text.

Also note the percentages.

What does it say?

It says a deliberate genocide and wiping out of races by the Hans and planting their seeds into barbarians to change their attitude of identifying themselves with their roots.

The same link of yours states:

As a result of the Han Dynasty's prominence, many Chinese began addressing themselves as "people of Han" (漢人), a name that was since carried down.

In the English language, the Han are often referred to as simply "Chinese".[11] Whether or not the use of the term Chinese correctly or incorrectly refers only to Han Chinese often is the subject of debate.

The definition of the Han identity has varied throughout history. Prior to the 20th century, some Chinese-speaking ethnic groups like the Hakka and the Tanka were not universally accepted as Han Chinese, while some non-Chinese speaking peoples, like the Zhuang, were sometimes considered Han.[24]

Moreover, a study by the Chinese Academy of Sciences into the gene frequency data of Han subpopulations and ethnic minorities in China, showed that Han subpopulations in different regions are also genetically close to the local ethnic minorities, and it means that in many cases blood of ethnic minorities has mixed into Han, while at the same time, blood of Han also has mixed into the local ethnicities.[29]

Historical documentation indicates that the Han were descended from the ancient Huaxia tribes of northern China. During the past two millennia, the Han culture (that is, the language and its associated culture) extended into southern China, a region inhabited by the southern natives, including those speaking Kradai, Austro-Asiatic, and Hmong-Mien languages. As Huaxia culture spread from its heartland in the Yellow River basin, it absorbed many distinct ethnic groups which then came to be identified as Han Chinese, as these groups adopted Han language (or variations of it) and customs.

For example, during the Shang Dynasty, people of the Wu area, in the Yangtze River Delta, were considered a different tribe. They spoke a language that was almost certainly distinct from that of the Shang, and were described as being scantily dressed and tattooed.

Three generations later, King Wu of Zhou defeated the last Yin emperor, and enfeoffed the descendants of Taibo in Wu, this mirrors the later history of Nanyue, where a Chinese king and his soldiers ruled a local non-Chinese population, and mixed with the local inhabitants who were sinicized over time.

You may also see this:

Genetically speaking Pinghua speakers have more in common with non-Han ethnic minorities in southern China than with other Han groups.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinghua

 

[JustForLaughs]

When you wipe out and exterminate a race and when you forcibly assimilate them by forcing marriage, and thereafter concoct history, then what can one say?





I don't think you have to get personal. It does show bad upbringing and a touch of a barbaric and vulgar instinct!

I do have a head. And within it, there is intelligence to sift the wheat from the chaff wherein one does not swallow hook, line and sinker, concoctions purveyed and aggrandised by an arrogant race (the Hans) who humiliated people by calling them barbarians and adding animal suffixes to their names so much so they were ashamed of their own heritage and through the ingenuous manner of the Hans converted to being Hans.

We are seeing the genocide of a race even in contemporary China in Tibet and Xinjiang! The facts are too stark and real and closer to time to deny with concoctions that the Han specialises in!




ain. we are Han.

Check the coloured/ highlighted parts of the text.

Also note the percentages.

What does it say?

It says a deliberate genocide and wiping out of races by the Hans and planting their seeds into barbarians to change their attitude of identifying themselves with their roots.

The same link of yours states:













You may also see this:

Genetically speaking Pinghua speakers have more in common with non-Han ethnic minorities in southern China than with other Han groups.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinghua

my so called theories is backed up by genetic studies.

there isnt nor ever was a Yue race. still cant be bothered to find their real tribe names?


"There is little evidence, however, that the Yue peoples held any common identity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bǎiyuè

as i keep repeating, THEY didnt even have this identity. yet you still try so hard, with ZERO success, to magically give this term significance today. it is TOO funny. at the start, when i said you had NO CLUE what you were talking about. i was not exaggerating.



read it carefully again


On the paternal side, southern Hans and northern Hans share
similar frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroups (Supplementary
Table 2), which are characterized by two haplogroups carrying the
M122-C mutations (O3-M122 and O3e-M134) that are prevalent
in almost all Han populations studied (mean and range: 53.8%,
37–71%; 54.2%, 35–74%, for northern and southern Hans, respectively).
Haplogroups carrying M119-C (O1* and O1b) and/or
M95-T (O2a* and O2a1) (following the nomenclature of the Y
Chromosome Consortium) which are prevalent in southern
natives, are more frequent in southern Hans (19%, 3–42%) than
in northern Hans (5%, 1–10%). In addition, haplogroups
O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in
southern natives17, were only observed in some southern Hans
(4% on average), but not in northern Hans. Therefore, the contribution
of southern natives in southern Hans is limited, if we assume
that the frequency distribution of Y lineages in southern natives
represents that before the expansion of Han culture that started
2,000 yr ago5. The results of analysis of molecular variance
(AMOVA) further indicate that northern Hans and southern
Hans are not significantly different in their Y haplogroups
(FST ¼ 0.006, P . 0.05), demonstrating that southern Hans bear
a high resemblance to northern Hans in their male lineages.

On the maternal side, however, the mtDNA haplogroup distribution
showed substantial differentiation between northern Hans
and southern Hans (Supplementary Table 3).


http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf


what you are highlighting doesnt even disprove anything i said.

"some" - LOL and?

"were only observed in some southern Hans" - this is referring haplogroups O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in southern natives. only 4% in southern Han. you dont even know what you are reading ahaha

"genetically close to minority" - that is referring to han subpopulation. "Genetic distances were calculated for Han subpopulations in different provinces, cities and autonomous regions and ethnic minorities in China"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18726285

first, it doesnt say it was cantonese. second, how many times do i have to tell you the creation of Cantonese? it is already established on the maternal side. what exactly do you think you are doing? most of what you post just support what i said. i think its about time you gave up Ray. you are just embarrassing yourself.

 

[ace009]

To JustForLaughs, the genetic study does indicate that the Northern Hans invaded Southern China and "Fathered" most of the Children, who form the present day Cantonese(?).
For Ray, what does this have to do with CCP and present day China - please get to the point.

 

[redragon]

Good news, all 35860 Chinese citizen in Lybia have come out, 0 dead, well done, Chinese Gov, well done CCP.