China sweeps aside civilians in rush for hydropower

[bennedose]

This is funny. It reminds me of a petty frog in a well who have never been to the outside.

You seem to know a lot about all this. But I think you have not read the article yourself. The most important thing about the pdf is that you posted it and you cannot back out from what it says. :cool2: And it says a lot of interesting stuff - although some parts are a pure whitewash where controversial issues that would send Chinese authors to labour camp are avoided.

 

[ice berg]

Irrelevant, you said people "born dalit die dalit"( while Chinese can pull themselves out of their misery). I gave you an example how people born in dalit families can elevate themselves to the very top.



Irrelevant again.

And how many dalits elevated themselves to the very top? Or is that irrelevant cause one person is enough.

So because Madam sonja is head of indian establishment, it means women in India enjoys equal position as men? muhahhahahaha.

Read what social mobility means.

You need certain numbers to move up the ladder. Otherwise that is not social mobility.

 

[ice berg]

You seem to know a lot about all this. But I think you have not read the article yourself. The most important thing about the pdf is that you posted it and you cannot back out from what it says. :cool2: And it says a lot of interesting stuff - although some parts are a pure whitewash where controversial issues that would send Chinese authors to labour camp are avoided.

I am not backing it out either. It gives a good summery of the challenges China has regarding to urbanization. Of course,
not answers are there.
Care to point out parts that you think are pure whitewash?

 

[ice berg]

But you cannot move across the Hukou caste border. Agricultural hukou. Kicked out of your home into urban flats. No land. No job no benefits.

Sure, you can. You can get a job in the city, marry a local girl then voila. Then you have the majority people who moved into smaller and medium sized cities on their own.

This hukou system is very interesting. As per the 70 page pdf that you are yet to read, urban hukou were changed to rural hukou in the 1960s when the government felt that the economy did not have enough money for benefits. That sounds like a scam to me. City dwellers are promised benefits, but when the government has no money .Out you go. You are no longer eligible for the benefits.

And the 60s are somehow relevant to the discussion today because?

II hear that a lot of Chinese have become personally wealthy. In India wealthy individuals often buy a rural estate several acres in size and build a retreat far away from flats, elevators and traffic. What does a Chinese who wants to live out of the city do? Is he/she allowed to build a large private estate? What happens to his hukou?

They do the same as wealthy indians. They emigrate to another country.

Sometimes this wealthy man in his large estate in India may get into his car and drive 500 km to another city for a friend's birthday. Or students may simply leave their city hostel for a weekend and travel to a hill destination hundreds of km away for a weekend. Is this sort of casual travel permissible in China?

You are not serious are you?????? The hukou is about permanent residency. That only applies if you want to settle in another place permanently. You can travel any place you want regardless of your hukou. Jezzzz. I am some times amazed how little indians know about China...
Cant be that hard to buy a ticket and see for yourself?
Books and internet can only teach you so much. The real world is out there. Go see with your own eyes.

 

[bennedose]

You are not serious are you?????? The hukou is about permanent residency. That only applies if you want to settle in another place permanently. You can travel any place you want regardless of your hukou. Jezzzz. I am some times amazed how little indians know about China...
Cant be that hard to buy a ticket and see for yourself?
Books and internet can only teach you so much. The real world is out there. Go see with your own eyes.

Can a city dweller buy a rural estate and live in it as his leisure home?

 

[ice berg]

Can a city dweller buy a rural estate and live in it as his leisure home?

People buying flats in Hainan all the time. There are also many people buying flats in big cities like Shanghai and Beijing driving up the prices.

 

[bennedose]

I am not backing it out either. It gives a good summery of the challenges China has regarding to urbanization. Of course,
not answers are there.
Care to point out parts that you think are pure whitewash?

Page 63. This lists a whole lot of issues. I read this paragraph in the context of your earlier statement that urbanization is people driven and that people move to urban areas for a better life and that those who lose land are paid compensation as per the law

But your pdf
1. Does not agree with the rosy picture you have painted

For example:
Page 63 indicates pressure by the government to accelerate urbanization and reluctance on the people who are being pressured

While the government has repeatedly called for the acceleration of urbanisation to towns and small
cities (as recently as in the Tenth Five Year Plan), the biggest constraint still appears to be the absence of
social safety nets for migrants to urban and suburban areas. Migrants are reluctant to make permanent
moves when the only social security they have is their rural landholding

And for those who do make the move: (page 63) there is no security and the payments made are arbitrary.

The promotion of urbanisation in strategic towns and smaller cities in metropolitan regions will
largely depend on the removal of constraints to migration posed by: 1) labour mobility restrictions still
pervading from the hukou household registration system; 2) shortageof affordable housing for migrants in
suburban towns and their often uncertain tenure; 3)limited access to and inconsistent availability of
affordable social services at acceptable standards, especially education and health; 4) lack of access to at
least a basic level of social security; and 5) in some areas, formal and informal constraints to migrants
entering the town-based labour market. Constraints to in-situ urbanisation also need to be removed,
particularly the arbitrary compensation paid by town governments to farmers for conversion of their land to
urban uses (creating the new non zhuan fei population of "landless farmers" who are no longer farming,
but are not integrated into urban/suburban non-farming labour markets), the absence of training
mechanisms to support the transition of these farmers to non-farming occupations, and, in bigger towns
and those now within suburban districts, the limited access to affordable public services that are available
to more established "urban" neighbours.

Worse than all that is that many cities simply do not have the money needed for the promised social safety nets that have to be created by this government sponsored "acceleration" of urbanization. Again page 63 points out that the migrants do not receive benefits but 45% of the urban eligible people receive generous benefits. About this the paper says;

This system now apparently serves 45% of the eligible urban workforce. It is a very generous system, and
carries high costs to local governments (many of which require annual bailouts through ad hoc transfers
from the central government to meet payouts). It is highly unlikely that this existing system will become
affordable to small, domestic enterprises and new workers (migrants, landless farmers, graduating
students). Governments simply do not have the fiscal capacity to provide for universal coverage across
metropolitan regions at current benefit levels

2. The "whitewash" comes from the general way in which the paper admits deficiencies, but gives no figures as to the number of people affected. Much is made in the early parts of the paper about how quickly urbanization is taking place, but the paper clams up on the actual magnitude of the problems while simply mentioning them. The problems look quite huge and is hardly as rosy as people might want to paint it. It is a massive social experiment played by the communist party using Chinese citizens as pawns. You need to look at my new signature to see what everyone in China is applauding

 

[bennedose]

People buying flats in Hainan all the time. There are also many people buying flats in big cities like Shanghai and Beijing driving up the prices.

I am talking about buying a five acre or ten acre rural estate while living in the city.

 

[Dovah]

And how many dalits elevated themselves to the very top? Or is that irrelevant cause one person is enough.
.

A lot actually, I gave only one example. For more instances, you can start by going through all of BSP party members (majority are Dalits), Loksabha speaker - Dalit, so forth. The point is, condition of Dalits is getting better and your original comment born dalit- die dalit reeks of ignorance and dishonesty.

So because Madam sonja is head of indian establishment, it means women in India enjoys equal position as men? muhahhahahaha.

Very funny. Much witty. Many humor. Such laugh. Wow.

Read what social mobility means.

Ok.

You need certain numbers to move up the ladder. Otherwise that is not social mobility.

Ok.

 

[ice berg]

Page 63. This lists a whole lot of issues. I read this paragraph in the context of your earlier statement that urbanization is people driven and that people move to urban areas for a better life and that those who lose land are paid compensation as per the law

But your pdf
1. Does not agree with the rosy picture you have painted

For example:
Page 63 indicates pressure by the government to accelerate urbanization and reluctance on the people who are being pressured


And for those who do make the move: (page 63) there is no security and the payments made are arbitrary.


Worse than all that is that many cities simply do not have the money needed for the promised social safety nets that have to be created by this government sponsored "acceleration" of urbanization. Again page 63 points out that the migrants do not receive benefits but 45% of the urban eligible people receive generous benefits. About this the paper says;

They are not in conflict with my statements. Majority of people moving to cities for work and better opportunities. Some people however are misplaced due to corrupt local governments.

2. The "whitewash" comes from the general way in which the paper admits deficiencies, but gives no figures as to the number of people affected. Much is made in the early parts of the paper about how quickly urbanization is taking place, but the paper clams up on the actual magnitude of the problems while simply mentioning them. The problems look quite huge and is hardly as rosy as people might want to paint it. It is a massive social experiment played by the communist party using Chinese citizens as pawns. You need to look at my new signature to see what everyone in China is applauding

So you are saying because the paper didnt provide figures, then it is whitewash? Was it within their mandate? Was the numbers avaiable? Where are those numbers coming from? Would you believe them if it was provided by CCP? Who else can provide the numbers ?Are all of your references whitewash because they didnt provided all the numbers? Was your statements whitewash because you didnt have the numbers either?
Of course the problems is huge. China is a huge country after all. Nobody is denying the problems. Is this a social experiment? perheps, but what other solutions are there? Urbanization is not unique for China. The scale is unique because of the size.
Moving a few millions people in a course of a few decades may be easy, Moving hundred millions of people in a span of 20 years are something entirely.
Do you regret that your ancestors moved from country side to the city?

see my comments above

 

[ice berg]

A lot actually, I gave only one example. For more instances, you can start by going through all of BSP party members (majority are Dalits), Loksabha speaker - Dalit, so forth. The point is, condition of Dalits is getting better and your original comment born dalit- die dalit reeks of ignorance and dishonesty.

Complete disagree with your comments. You are listing a few exemples of dalit politicians as to imply the general conditions for dalits in India are improving.
Let me give you some numbers:
Dharmapuri rampage shows worsening plight of Dalits: Yohannan

Of India's 1.2 billion people, one-fourth are "untouchables." Ninety-five percent of all Dalit women are illiterate.

GFA serves the Dalit communities through its 580 Bridge of Hope institutions bringing education, meals and healthcare to 60,000 children in need. In communities where Dalits are not allowed to draw water from public wells, Jesus Wells are providing clean water for 800-900 families.

More:
http://www.indianet.nl/pdf/CastAnEye.pdf
Crimes against Dalits
According to official Indian crime statistics, averaged over the period 2001-2005:
27 atrocities against Dalits every day
13 Dalits murdered every week
5 Dalits' homes or possessions burnt every week
6 Dalits kidnapped or abducted every week
3 Dalit women raped every day
11 Dalits beaten every day
A crime committed against a Dalit every 18 minutes

You will excuse me if I pay no attention to your few dalit politicians.
Very funny. Much witty. Many humor. Such laugh. Wow.

 

[Ray]

@iceberg..

I find it delightful that you all quote one member of the Hui or whatever minority and make a song and dance over the same, while you overlook the number of Dalit Chief Ministers, Speaker, Ministers and so on as nothing worth note.

We have had Dalits as Presidents, but have you had any Hui or a minority as the Head of your State?

Compare your one to our many!

The laugh is on you.

 

[ice berg]

@iceberg..

I find it delightful that you all quote one member of the Hui or whatever minority and make a song and dance over the same, while you overlook the number of Dalit Chief Ministers, Speaker, Ministers and so on as nothing worth note.

We have had Dalits as Presidents, but have you had any Hui or a minority as the Head of your State?

Compare your one to our many!

The laugh is on you.

I am sure it is comforting for the 95 percent dalit women who are illiterate to know that. ONE of them will someday be the President of India. Gasp.

 

[Ray]

I am sure it is comforting for the 95 percent dalit women who are illiterate to know that. ONE of them will someday be the President of India. Gasp.

What is so earth shaking about illiteracy and rights?

The thing to celebrate that even if illiterate, they are wise to know their rights as citizens.

The same cannot be said of the Chinese, who claim to be literate.

Do something about the Pollution in China. Is it that bad that you Gasp even when you are replying through the keyboard to a DFI post?

 

[Dovah]

Complete disagree with your comments. You are listing a few exemples of dalit politicians as to imply the general conditions for dalits in India are improving.
Let me give you some numbers:
Dharmapuri rampage shows worsening plight of Dalits: Yohannan

Of India's 1.2 billion people, one-fourth are "untouchables." Ninety-five percent of all Dalit women are illiterate.

GFA serves the Dalit communities through its 580 Bridge of Hope institutions bringing education, meals and healthcare to 60,000 children in need. In communities where Dalits are not allowed to draw water from public wells, Jesus Wells are providing clean water for 800-900 families.

More:
http://www.indianet.nl/pdf/CastAnEye.pdf
Crimes against Dalits
According to official Indian crime statistics, averaged over the period 2001-2005:
27 atrocities against Dalits every day
13 Dalits murdered every week
5 Dalits' homes or possessions burnt every week
6 Dalits kidnapped or abducted every week
3 Dalit women raped every day
11 Dalits beaten every day
A crime committed against a Dalit every 18 minutes

Okay, let me try again, since you misconstrued my argument. I am not saying Dalits have historically not been discriminated against. I am not saying incidences of discriminatory behavior do not occur now. I am not saying a section of Indian society is not deeply entrenched in caste discrimination.

My point is, your argument that all dalits have no hope in the Indian society and all or even majority of them will have no elevation in social ranks is dishonest. Dalits have been constitutionally protected for decades now, the discrimination they face is as much a law and order problem as it is social. The state does not go out of the way to ensure that dalits remain oppressed. Any dalit who is capable of availing state benefits would most certainly elevate himself socially.

Now, compare this to countries where the state decides the social structure, anyone who has been wronged by the state has nowhere to go since the judiciary, the law enforcement and the government are all the same, he has no hope because he can not vote, the only chance he has, is to survive by compliance. In this, India and China are vastly different.

 

[ice berg]

Of India's 1.2 billion people, one-fourth are "untouchables." Ninety-five percent of all Dalit women are illiterate.

What is so earth shaking about illiteracy and rights?
QUOTE]

Maybe that is what is wrong with India. A retired brigadier thinks it is nothing earth shaking that one in four people are considered untouchables and that 95 percent of Dalit women are illiterate.
No wonder the number is like that.

Shining India.

 

[bennedose]

Well I must compliment Ice berg for successfully pushing the right buttons to change the subject to India and make Indians argue about India in a thread about China. I think he wins this round. It is important to stay on topic. If we must speak about Dalits in India let us have a new thread

 

[Ray]

Well I must compliment Ice berg for successfully pushing the right buttons to change the subject to India and make Indians argue about India in a thread about China. I think he wins this round. It is important to stay on topic. If we must speak about Dalits in India let us have a new thread

He is delightful person.

Can't blame him.

It is the ditktat that all Chinese gleefully employ when they are lost or not lost for words or reality!

 

[ice berg]

Okay, let me try again, since you misconstrued my argument. I am not saying Dalits have historically not been discriminated against. I am not saying incidences of discriminatory behavior do not occur now. I am not saying a section of Indian society is not deeply entrenched in caste discrimination.

My point is, your argument that all dalits have no hope in the Indian society and all or even majority of them will have no elevation in social ranks is dishonest. Dalits have been constitutionally protected for decades now, the discrimination they face is as much a law and order problem as it is social. The state does not go out of the way to ensure that dalits remain oppressed. Any dalit who is capable of availing state benefits would most certainly elevate himself socially.

Now, compare this to countries where the state decides the social structure, anyone who has been wronged by the state has nowhere to go since the judiciary, the law enforcement and the government are all the same, he has no hope because he can not vote, the only chance he has, is to survive by compliance. In this, India and China are vastly different.

I am not saying that all dalits have no hope. I am saying that for the majority of them, it may as well be. I have already provided the numbers. How can you claim that it is dishonest to claim that majority of them will have no elevation in social ranks. The numbers does not lie.


I will argue the disrimination are more a social issue. You can change laws, but peoples perception is alot harder to change.

THe problem in China is that the judical branch is subjected to the party.
The problem regarding to Dalit is a social issue.

 

[bennedose]

For the Indians arguing on this thread about Dalits may I point out that Ice berg has successfully played a game that I call the "You farted" game and has wrested the initiative of the discussion from all of you. Here is my description of the you farted game

The "You Farted" game

There is a particularly irritating psychological trick that you may have had played on you, and perhaps you are guilty of playing it yourself. People do it all the time - but it is educative to find influential groups and nations playing that trick. India and Indians with their passive "satyameva jayate" - "all is open and visible" lifestyles are particular suckers for this game.

The "game" or trick is to get a person on the defensive with an unprovoked accusation. The agenda and tone is set by the accuser and the passive personality goes on the defensive right from the start.

Let me explain. For clarity I will call it the "You farted" game

A group of people are sitting together - say 6 or 7 friends in a hostel room. Suddenly the foul smell of a fart wafts up.

An accuser personality (call him 'A') picks out a passive personality ('P') and says "Hey P, you farted"

P protests "No I did not"

A: "Yes you did"

P: "Shut up and stop accusing me"

A:"He Ha. It's OK. No need to cover your guilt by getting angry. I know you farted. We don't mind - just warn us next time.

What happens in this exchange is that the Accuser 'A' has the initiative all the time. He sets the pace, and he sets the Agenda. He may actually have farted himself, but he gets away giving the impression that "P" is guilty.

Note that this is a complex human exchange and not something that can be described in a few simple words.

Now see how this is applied by groups and nations. The trick is used by Amnesty, Greenpeace, Pakistan against India and a whole load of "Western" organizations use this against many others - but I am only interested in the way it is used against India.

Here Iceberg has deflected all talk about China by planting the bait about dalits - and that bait was bitten - giving him the initiative and the lead. All he will do now is accuse, disagree and mock as long as anyone replies to the subject.