China Stealing Russian Designs Again?

SHASH2K2

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Despite holding the position as one of the world's biggest economies, China seems unwilling to shed its reputation for producing cheap replicas.
And one of their more ambitious copycat efforts may put a strain on Russia-China relations.

"This Chinese plane is simply a Russian design stuffed with local electronics," says Maksim Pyadushkin from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technology about the Chinese J11B jet's resemblance to the Russian Su-27. "It's a knock-off."

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Last year, Russian aircraft sales internationally topped $3 billion – second only to the US. But others too want a slice of the aviation pie.

Vadim Kozyulin, program director for conventional arms from the Russian Center for Policy Studies, says that fake Su-27s are widely offered in the world arms market. "Sooner or later, Russian arms traders will face competition from the Chinese colleagues," he told RT.

China was given the design plans for the Russian fighter jet in 1995, when it promised to buy 200 kits and assemble them domestically. After building 100 planes, the Chinese said the Russian plane did not meet specifications, only for a copycat version soon to appear – "Made in China" – without copyright.

The threat from China is real, and it will be difficult for the Russian aviation industry to maintain its lofty position, and soar further unless it manages to better protect its intellectual rights and also find new ways of co-operating with its eastern neighbor.

Although it made its maiden flight over 30 years ago, the Su-27 remains the bedrock of the Russian air force, and is highly popular abroad.

"I don't think anyone who's flown on the SU-27 can ask for a different plane, unless we are talking about a new generation jet," believes Lt. Colonel Andrey Alekseyev, Air Force Pilot. "It's maneuverable and has a huge range."

Some are calling for calm over the controversy. While the similarities between the two planes are clear, experts say the Chinese J11B does not have the latest Russian high-tech features and will be no match for it on the international market.

The best way to fight copyright violations is to be technologically ahead of your rivals, claims Maksim Pyadushkin from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technology. "The biggest problem for Russia is that it has been living off the legacy of the Soviet Union, and soon its technology may no longer be the world leader," he asserts.

Rather than a continuing dogfight over the copycat plane, it is possible that Russia and China may yet settle the matter amicably – at the highest political level.

But in the shady world of international weapons copyright, similar cases are sure to follow.
 

SHASH2K2

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Pirate production is among the key problems of the global weapons market. Superpowers that used to help their allies establish their own defense industries during the Cold War now face the consequences of that help.
Many countries have created successful copies of foreign weapons and do not need to import arms any more. Furthermore, weapon clones are offered for export, which poses an immediate economic threat for major players in the arms market.

Copying weapons is a worldwide policy favored by countries whose scientific potential and defense industry are not up to the task of producing this or that type of weapons or lack a certain technology. As early as during World War II, combating countries did their best to get hold of the most successful weapon models. For example, Germany was trying to produce something similar to the USSR's Katyusha MLRS, but their multiple-launch systems were still inferior to the Soviet original. Also, the Wehrmacht recognized the advantages of the T-34 tank, whose efficient sloped-armor design was used in Germany's Panther tank.

Read more

The USSR, too, copied Allied equipment. By the end of the war, the USSR began working on a strategic bomber project, and the Americans involuntarily assisted Soviet designers in that. In 1944, B-29 Superfortresses made numerous emergency landings on Soviet Far East airfields after bombing missions in Japan and Manchuria. According to the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact, the aircraft and their crews were subject to internment. Aircraft designers carefully studied the bomber and created its copy: the Tu-4, which was hard to tell from its American original.

Today, the main victim of weapons piracy is perhaps the famous Kalashnikov assault rifle. During Soviet times, licenses to produce the AK were granted to most Warsaw Pact countries, Cuba, China, Libya, Egypt, and Finland. In most cases, the deals were politics-driven, their goal being to ensure that all friendly armies field uniform weapons. Despite the expiration of the licenses, the Kalashnikov rifle is still manufactured in Hungary, Poland, Croatia, Slovakia, and even the US. Rosoboronexport is trying to change the situation by claiming royalties or seeking new license agreements. However, according to the company, only China has so far obtained a new license to manufacture the world's most popular assault rifle.
The pirate parade

China is the world-recognized leader in arms copying. This is largely due to the fact that the entire Chinese economy is based on borrowing foreign technology. Besides this, the country has a well-developed defense industry, so its copycats are quite good. The scale of "reproductions" was obvious at the military parade commemorating the 60th anniversary of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese leadership made a point of the fact that only Chinese-made vehicles and equipment took part in the parade.

Type 88 (PLZ-05), China

In reality, many models presented that day clearly had foreign origins. The FT-2000 surface-to-air missile system is a carbon copy of Russia's S-300. China never obtained a Smerch multiple rocket launcher from Russia, but fields its own look-alike PHL-03 system. The People's Liberation Army has a "carbon copy" of the Russian-made Msta self-propelled howitzer under the designation of Type 88. A clone of Russia's BMP-3 is an infantry fighting vehicle with a Russian turret mounted on Chinese ZBD-05 chassis.

Sometimes, Chinese designers create hardware blending two foreign origins at once. For example, the PGZ-04 self-propelled air defense system features 25-mm cannons taken from Italian SIDAM-25 AD system and four QW-2 missiles that copy Russia's Igla-1. Quite often, Chinese copies, upon permission by China, are further reproduced in other countries. France's Crotale short-range air defense system has become HQ-7 in China, but that same system, under the designation of Shahab Thaqeb, is now produced in Iran.

According to experts, China has made great progress in copying missile technology. Having purchased the X-55 missile from Ukraine, the Chinese created their own DH-10 cruise missile.
License with no guarantee

Quite often, a license to manufacture military equipment is not protection from copying but quite the opposite: a rather legal way to obtain samples for the development of similar weapons.

Ruslan Pukhov, head of the Strategy and Technology Analysis Center, says software codes are not transferred under military equipment supply agreements. Also, there are restrictions on essential and most complex components and systems of the armaments in question; such items are usually supplied assembled by the supplying country. However, sales of equipment without sales of technology are impossible, Mr. Pukhov says; some countries (e.g. India) flatly refuse to consider offers that do not provide for production technology handover.

China uses production licenses to create helicopters and airplanes. France's helicopter SA-365 Dauphin 2 has been upgraded to the WZ-09 combat chopper. However, the clearest example of "licensed copying" is the Chinese J-11 fighter jet, based on Russia's Su-27. In 2006, Moscow and Beijing struck a deal on licensed production of the Su-27SK (Chinese designation J-11A). The agreement only provided for licensed assembly of components provided by Russia. The Chinese, though, studied the aircraft while assembling it and ended up producing a similar fighter, the J-11B, only with a Chinese-made engine and avionics.
Tehran is keeping up

Iran, spurred by its aspiration to become the leader of the Islamic world yet strangled by numerous sanctions, is forced to develop an independent defense industry of its own. Evidently, the easiest way to achieve such a goal is to upgrade and copy foreign armaments instead of developing weapons from scratch.

However, Tehran, upon permission of friendly powers, often copies the already-copied weapons. Its Sayyad-1A missile is based on the Soviet S-75, supplied by China. Procured during the Iran-Iraq war, those missiles became the base for the development of Iran's tactical ballistic missile Tondar-68. With the help of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Iranian factories were able to launch production and assembly of SCUD-B missiles (Iranian designation Shahab-1). North Korea also supplied the longer-range version SCUD-C (Shahab-2), with a range of 500km. The North Korean missile Nodong-1 later became Iran's Shahab-3, capable of hitting targets at ranges of up to 1000km.

Such approaches to creating and upgrading missile armaments now prevail in the development of other missile classes. Iran currently produces anti-tank guided missiles based on American TOW (Toophan and Toophan 2) and Dragon (Saeghe and Saeghe-2) systems, and its I-RAAD-T missiles is nothing else than the Soviet Malyutka ATGM.

Another sphere where Iran is attempting to copy is shipbuilding. Few countries today would sell Tehran warships for use in the Gulf without facing negative reaction from the US. Iranian shipyards are currently busy building small frigates (copies of Britain's Alvand frigates) and missiles boats (copies of French La Combattante II). The originals were, of course, procured before the complication of relations between Iran and Western countries.

Still unresolved is the issue of possible deliveries of the S-300 surface-to-air missile system to Iran. Such a system can significantly strengthen Iran's air defense. The US and Israel are strongly against the sale of the S-300 to Iran. All "technical difficulties" hampering the sale of the missile system to Iran are purely diplomatic problems.

In the meanwhile, General Heshmatollah Kasiri said recently that Iran is about to field an air defense complex that is superior to the S-300. According to the general, the new complex is the brainchild of Iran's defense industry. The unit has yet to be shown to the public, yet experience shows that Iran's military developments often have Chinese and North Korean roots.
The solution

"There is only one way we can prevent the copying of Russian armaments in other countries, and that is to sign intergovernmental intellectual property agreements," Rosoboronexport chief Anatoly Isaikin told reporters recently. But the results of that work are scarce so far.

First, licensing and various agreements are complicated bureaucratic procedures that not all Russian companies can cope with. For example, for many years the Russian armored personnel carrier Tigr has had its Jordan-made clone Nimr (which means "tiger" in Arabic).

Second, not all countries are willing to extend existing, or sign new, agreements regarding the production of Soviet military equipment, considering them to be past their expiration date. In the meanwhile, copying of Russian military technology means colossal economic losses for Russia. For example, the United Arab Emirates have purchased the Jordanian-made vehicles for their army, not the Russian "Tigers." The Malaysian Armed Forces have bought Polish PT-91 tanks, which are a modification of the Russian T-72.

In the future, China may be the key threat to Russia's arms exports. It is China's cheap yet quality clones of Russian military products that have aroused the interest of Pakistan and a number of states in Africa and Southeast Asia.
 

anoop_mig25

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Russia should take on china in some international court to prevent it form shelling or making copy of suk-27 i.e chinese j11b

its time to act against Chinese xerox machine. whole world would support them at least USA/EUROPE would surely support Russia in this
 
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Russia should take on china in some international court to prevent it form shelling or making copy of suk-27 i.e chinese j11b

its time to act against Chinese xerox machine. whole world would support them at least USA/EUROPE would surely support Russia in this
why would USA/Europe support Russia in this?? If it undercuts Russia and destroys their weapons industry it opens new markets for western arms dealers it also guarantees superior weapons will sell to buyers with money,since inferior Chinese reverse engineering will only have a market for a limited time.
 

badguy2000

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Pirate production is among the key problems of the global weapons market. Superpowers that used to help their allies establish their own defense industries during the Cold War now face the consequences of that help.
Many countries have created successful copies of foreign weapons and do not need to import arms any more. Furthermore, weapon clones are offered for export, which poses an immediate economic threat for major players in the arms market.

Copying weapons is a worldwide policy favored by countries whose scientific potential and defense industry are not up to the task of producing this or that type of weapons or lack a certain technology. As early as during World War II, combating countries did their best to get hold of the most successful weapon models. For example, Germany was trying to produce something similar to the USSR's Katyusha MLRS, but their multiple-launch systems were still inferior to the Soviet original. Also, the Wehrmacht recognized the advantages of the T-34 tank, whose efficient sloped-armor design was used in Germany's Panther tank.

Read more

The USSR, too, copied Allied equipment. By the end of the war, the USSR began working on a strategic bomber project, and the Americans involuntarily assisted Soviet designers in that. In 1944, B-29 Superfortresses made numerous emergency landings on Soviet Far East airfields after bombing missions in Japan and Manchuria. According to the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact, the aircraft and their crews were subject to internment. Aircraft designers carefully studied the bomber and created its copy: the Tu-4, which was hard to tell from its American original.

Today, the main victim of weapons piracy is perhaps the famous Kalashnikov assault rifle. During Soviet times, licenses to produce the AK were granted to most Warsaw Pact countries, Cuba, China, Libya, Egypt, and Finland. In most cases, the deals were politics-driven, their goal being to ensure that all friendly armies field uniform weapons. Despite the expiration of the licenses, the Kalashnikov rifle is still manufactured in Hungary, Poland, Croatia, Slovakia, and even the US. Rosoboronexport is trying to change the situation by claiming royalties or seeking new license agreements. However, according to the company, only China has so far obtained a new license to manufacture the world's most popular assault rifle.
The pirate parade

China is the world-recognized leader in arms copying. This is largely due to the fact that the entire Chinese economy is based on borrowing foreign technology. Besides this, the country has a well-developed defense industry, so its copycats are quite good. The scale of "reproductions" was obvious at the military parade commemorating the 60th anniversary of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese leadership made a point of the fact that only Chinese-made vehicles and equipment took part in the parade.

Type 88 (PLZ-05), China

In reality, many models presented that day clearly had foreign origins. The FT-2000 surface-to-air missile system is a carbon copy of Russia's S-300. China never obtained a Smerch multiple rocket launcher from Russia, but fields its own look-alike PHL-03 system. The People's Liberation Army has a "carbon copy" of the Russian-made Msta self-propelled howitzer under the designation of Type 88. A clone of Russia's BMP-3 is an infantry fighting vehicle with a Russian turret mounted on Chinese ZBD-05 chassis.

Sometimes, Chinese designers create hardware blending two foreign origins at once. For example, the PGZ-04 self-propelled air defense system features 25-mm cannons taken from Italian SIDAM-25 AD system and four QW-2 missiles that copy Russia's Igla-1. Quite often, Chinese copies, upon permission by China, are further reproduced in other countries. France's Crotale short-range air defense system has become HQ-7 in China, but that same system, under the designation of Shahab Thaqeb, is now produced in Iran.

According to experts, China has made great progress in copying missile technology. Having purchased the X-55 missile from Ukraine, the Chinese created their own DH-10 cruise missile.
License with no guarantee

Quite often, a license to manufacture military equipment is not protection from copying but quite the opposite: a rather legal way to obtain samples for the development of similar weapons.

Ruslan Pukhov, head of the Strategy and Technology Analysis Center, says software codes are not transferred under military equipment supply agreements. Also, there are restrictions on essential and most complex components and systems of the armaments in question; such items are usually supplied assembled by the supplying country. However, sales of equipment without sales of technology are impossible, Mr. Pukhov says; some countries (e.g. India) flatly refuse to consider offers that do not provide for production technology handover.

China uses production licenses to create helicopters and airplanes. France's helicopter SA-365 Dauphin 2 has been upgraded to the WZ-09 combat chopper. However, the clearest example of "licensed copying" is the Chinese J-11 fighter jet, based on Russia's Su-27. In 2006, Moscow and Beijing struck a deal on licensed production of the Su-27SK (Chinese designation J-11A). The agreement only provided for licensed assembly of components provided by Russia. The Chinese, though, studied the aircraft while assembling it and ended up producing a similar fighter, the J-11B, only with a Chinese-made engine and avionics.
Tehran is keeping up

Iran, spurred by its aspiration to become the leader of the Islamic world yet strangled by numerous sanctions, is forced to develop an independent defense industry of its own. Evidently, the easiest way to achieve such a goal is to upgrade and copy foreign armaments instead of developing weapons from scratch.

However, Tehran, upon permission of friendly powers, often copies the already-copied weapons. Its Sayyad-1A missile is based on the Soviet S-75, supplied by China. Procured during the Iran-Iraq war, those missiles became the base for the development of Iran's tactical ballistic missile Tondar-68. With the help of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Iranian factories were able to launch production and assembly of SCUD-B missiles (Iranian designation Shahab-1). North Korea also supplied the longer-range version SCUD-C (Shahab-2), with a range of 500km. The North Korean missile Nodong-1 later became Iran's Shahab-3, capable of hitting targets at ranges of up to 1000km.

Such approaches to creating and upgrading missile armaments now prevail in the development of other missile classes. Iran currently produces anti-tank guided missiles based on American TOW (Toophan and Toophan 2) and Dragon (Saeghe and Saeghe-2) systems, and its I-RAAD-T missiles is nothing else than the Soviet Malyutka ATGM.

Another sphere where Iran is attempting to copy is shipbuilding. Few countries today would sell Tehran warships for use in the Gulf without facing negative reaction from the US. Iranian shipyards are currently busy building small frigates (copies of Britain's Alvand frigates) and missiles boats (copies of French La Combattante II). The originals were, of course, procured before the complication of relations between Iran and Western countries.

Still unresolved is the issue of possible deliveries of the S-300 surface-to-air missile system to Iran. Such a system can significantly strengthen Iran's air defense. The US and Israel are strongly against the sale of the S-300 to Iran. All "technical difficulties" hampering the sale of the missile system to Iran are purely diplomatic problems.

In the meanwhile, General Heshmatollah Kasiri said recently that Iran is about to field an air defense complex that is superior to the S-300. According to the general, the new complex is the brainchild of Iran's defense industry. The unit has yet to be shown to the public, yet experience shows that Iran's military developments often have Chinese and North Korean roots.
The solution

"There is only one way we can prevent the copying of Russian armaments in other countries, and that is to sign intergovernmental intellectual property agreements," Rosoboronexport chief Anatoly Isaikin told reporters recently. But the results of that work are scarce so far.

First, licensing and various agreements are complicated bureaucratic procedures that not all Russian companies can cope with. For example, for many years the Russian armored personnel carrier Tigr has had its Jordan-made clone Nimr (which means "tiger" in Arabic).

Second, not all countries are willing to extend existing, or sign new, agreements regarding the production of Soviet military equipment, considering them to be past their expiration date. In the meanwhile, copying of Russian military technology means colossal economic losses for Russia. For example, the United Arab Emirates have purchased the Jordanian-made vehicles for their army, not the Russian "Tigers." The Malaysian Armed Forces have bought Polish PT-91 tanks, which are a modification of the Russian T-72.

In the future, China may be the key threat to Russia's arms exports. It is China's cheap yet quality clones of Russian military products that have aroused the interest of Pakistan and a number of states in Africa and Southeast Asia.
One when one country loses its confidence to keep on its leadship does it waste soo many energy and time in " sign intergovernmental intellectual property agreements". It is in fact not feasible at all.

defence industry is always a west wild world without laws ,let alone IP right.
 
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One when one country loses its confidence to keep on its leadship does it waste soo many energy and time in " sign intergovernmental intellectual property agreements". It is in fact not feasible at all.

defence industry is always a west wild world without laws ,let alone IP right.
This is a joke no IP rights in defense industry?? Patent laws also don't apply for Chinese too??
 

badguy2000

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why would USA/Europe support Russia in this?? If it undercuts Russia and destroys their weapons industry it opens new markets for western arms dealers it also guarantees superior weapons will sell to buyers with money,since inferior Chinese reverse engineering will only have a market for a limited time.
from the start, Chinese defence industry is growing under the tech deny from outside world.

it not based on the tech transferation from foreign countries at all,but on its expanding industry chains.And Chinese industry chains can get more and more full and power as long as Chinese huge trade go on.

As long as west can not cut their huge trade with CHina, China still can absorb many techs,military or civilianly, and consolidate its industry chains.
 
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from the start, Chinese defence industry is growing under the tech deny from outside world.

it not based on the tech transferation from foreign countries at all,but on its expanding industry chains.And Chinese industry chains can get more and more full and power as long as Chinese huge trade go on.

As long as west can not cut their huge trade with CHina, China still can absorb many techs,military or civilianly, and consolidate its industry chains.
Why will the west hand over the weapon industry to maintain trade with China?? you are talking like other countries cannot produce anything only china can,when China is producing nothing more than non essential goods.
 

SHASH2K2

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One when one country loses its confidence to keep on its leadship does it waste soo many energy and time in " sign intergovernmental intellectual property agreements". It is in fact not feasible at all.

defence industry is always a west wild world without laws ,let alone IP right.
SO you accept that china steal technologies for west and Russia? and now issue is that whether its justified or not.
 

badguy2000

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Why will the west hand over the weapon industry to maintain trade with China?? you are talking like other countries cannot produce anything only china can,when China is producing nothing more than non essential goods.
1. Chinese defence industry is based on its full industry chain and increasing R&D capacity. Foreign tech is helpful but is never the decisive factor to Chinese defence industry.
.
2. the most helpful foreign tech exchange is not Russia tech at all,but the acquired tech exchange from huge civilian trade between China and west country.
Every year,trillion-dollar civilian trade happen between China and west and China can acqurie many dual-purpose techs for both military and civilian from it. those tech are much more and much more valuabe than tech acquried from Russia.

3. only the guy lack of the confidence on the future is ready to protect the past glory.

Russia now is obvioulsy suc a guy lack of confidence ,because Russiansa know that they can hardly keep on its tech edge against China in the coming decade.
 
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1. Chinese defence industry is based on its full industry chain and increasing R&D capacity. Foreign tech is helpful but is never the decisive factor to Chinese defence industry.
.
2. the most helpful foreign tech exchange is not Russia tech at all,but the acquired tech exchange from huge civilian trade between China and west country.
Every year,trillion-dollar civilian trade happen between China and west and China can acqurie many dual-purpose techs for both military and civilian from it. those tech are much more and much more valuabe than tech acquried from Russia.
Just because the West let's you make toys with lead and poison baby milk does not mean they need you to make weapons,you have killed enough people without making weapons.
 

SHASH2K2

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Chinese defence industry is based on its full industry chain and increasing R&D capacity. Foreign tech is helpful but is never the decisive factor to Chinese defence industry.
like Lavi was for J10 and su33 for J15 or Russian engines for all your fighter planes .

2. the most helpful foreign tech exchange is not Russia tech at all,but the acquired tech exchange from huge civilian trade between China and west country.
Every year,trillion-dollar civilian trade happen between China and west and China can acqurie many dual-purpose techs for both military and civilian from it. those tech are much more and much more valuabe than tech acquried from Russia.
Nice to read that you acknowledge that Russians technology are being used in chinese weapons, Now please confess that they are all stolen ones.
aslo whether you have trillion or trillion trillions worth trade no one will give you access to dual use technology as they all know that within a year same technology will be labeled by china as their own .
 

badguy2000

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like Lavi was for J10 and su33 for J15 or Russian engines for all your fighter planes .



Nice to read that you acknowledge that Russians technology are being used in chinese weapons, Now please confess that they are all stolen ones.
aslo whether you have trillion or trillion trillions worth trade no one will give you access to dual use technology as they all know that within a year same technology will be labeled by china as their own .
guy, do you know how many Yankee and Uk soilders are using bulletinproof vests and helmets made in CHina ?

China is the biggest vest and helmet supplier to west troops in AFH and Irqa battilefield.
 

tony4562

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China has now the fastest computer in the world, has just launched another GPS satellite, 4th in the series this year, and 12th overall. China now also boasts the largest high-speed rail network in the world along with the fastest operational trains. Several large transport aircraft projects are underway, and the latest rumor has China completing its first 5th gen fighter prototype. With more engineering/science students enrolled than anywhere including india and more research money available than anywhere else except the US, coupled with a more hardworking ethic, China is bound to leapfrog not just Russia, but also many western nations in science&technology.

All things point at a new ground reality that China is no longer the technology backwater which westerners have always associated with China.
 
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How did China fail in a third generation plane engine and make a fifth generation plane?? Provide a link if possible.
 

SHASH2K2

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guy, do you know how many Yankee and Uk soilders are using bulletinproof vests and helmets made in CHina ?

China is the biggest vest and helmet supplier to west troops in AFH and Irqa battilefield.
You mean to say that Helmet and Bulletproof vests are hi tech weapons and thus China has achieved mastery in manufacturing Hi tech weapons? so now China is leader in Hi tech weapons export as well . pretty impressive show .
 
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badguy2000

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You mean to say that Helmet and Bulletproof vests are hi tech weapons and thus China has achieved mastery in manufacturing Hi tech weapons? so now China is leader in Hi tech weapons export as well . pretty impressive show .
well, go back and figure how many countries can produce Kavlar material !
 

Tshering22

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take it easy. Chinese copied one can not be as good as Russia's orginal one. so Russians and Indians can have a good sleep.
Buddy, we don't want to be critical but seriously this copying will not lead to innovation and Chinese who have contributed so much to the ancient world should know this. Copying initial designs are fine since prototypes cannot be made magically all of a sudden. But where does this lead to in terms of innovation and self-designing and development? Nowhere. Keep your hand on your heart and honestly tell me; do you consider the J-11B or J-15 as Chinese achievements? Honestly? Did this design go wind tunnel testing? Did it go structural testing in preliminary stage? Yes it did, but in Russian testing facilities.

What does this give your engineers? A basic know-how on how to make future advanced versions right? Same here. But again blatantly taking the same design and calling it yours because the composites and metals are Chinese doesn't really make the J series Chinese right? There was some degree of innovation that I agree on is J-10 and FC-1. Both are unique in design and distinctly can be called as Chinese-made. But J-11 and J-15 and the older generation Js? Come on, even you cannot refuse the fact that they're simply assembled by Chinese.

This will only kill innovation. We Indians are often teased on Pakistani forums by both Pakistanis and Chinese members about how long we take to make something. But the thing is that we do come up with original designs that have yet to be deployed. The only thing Tejas shares with Mirage, Rafale, J-10, Typhoon and Gripen is that it is also a delta-wing jet yet again different a cranked delta wing. This concept has been tried by earlier Gripen designs but never deployed, making Tejas a unique product. Same thing about Arjun MBT. We took 30 woeful years and despite not copying from any designers or developers (contrary to what Pakistanis tease us as "German copiers", Rheinmetall has never raised this issue nor has any other production company). Arjun was painfully slow but in the end today it out-does Russian T-90s as was tested by our Army and is the "high end" of our Army's mechanized forces. In both these cases we accept the the engines for both these are American and German respectively and also state that we're developing our own domestic substitutes which are undergoing testing--namely the GE F414 for Tejas and DRDO-made engine for Arjun.

It might all have taken time but in the end we got a self-reliant learning curve. We might not have license-made T-72s, Su-27SKs, MiG-29s but we imported them till we developed our own systems. And without naming them as our own, we earned the trust of global suppliers at the same time formed a low level base for domestic weapon systems.

Cloning doesn't mean innovation, dude. Chinese are smart and very hard working people. You guys have lot of capability to design on your own. There's no need to clone at all. A little bit of extra time will not be embarrassing at all and rather even if it is laughed about by other countries, your scientists and engineers will benefit the most.
 

badguy2000

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Buddy, we don't want to be critical but seriously this copying will not lead to innovation and Chinese who have contributed so much to the ancient world should know this. Copying initial designs are fine since prototypes cannot be made magically all of a sudden. But where does this lead to in terms of innovation and self-designing and development? Nowhere. Keep your hand on your heart and honestly tell me; do you consider the J-11B or J-15 as Chinese achievements? Honestly? Did this design go wind tunnel testing? Did it go structural testing in preliminary stage? Yes it did, but in Russian testing facilities.
guy, are you really so naive that complicated toys such as heavy bird like Su27/Su33 can be "copied" simply and J11B and J15 have not experienced decoding ,windy-testing and redesigning internal structure ?

any slight modificaiton of complicated toys like Su27 can cause hunderds of problems such as the change of barycenter ,which influence the performance of the bird seriouly, let alone decoding,redesigning the internal structure and modifing the aycrodynamic airframe.







What does this give your engineers? A basic know-how on how to make future advanced versions right? Same here. But again blatantly taking the same design and calling it yours because the composites and metals are Chinese doesn't really make the J series Chinese right? There was some degree of innovation that I agree on is J-10 and FC-1. Both are unique in design and distinctly can be called as Chinese-made. But J-11 and J-15 and the older generation Js? Come on, even you cannot refuse the fact that they're simply assembled by Chinese.

This will only kill innovation. We Indians are often teased on Pakistani forums by both Pakistanis and Chinese members about how long we take to make something. But the thing is that we do come up with original designs that have yet to be deployed. The only thing Tejas shares with Mirage, Rafale, J-10, Typhoon and Gripen is that it is also a delta-wing jet yet again different a cranked delta wing. This concept has been tried by earlier Gripen designs but never deployed, making Tejas a unique product. Same thing about Arjun MBT. We took 30 woeful years and despite not copying from any designers or developers (contrary to what Pakistanis tease us as "German copiers", Rheinmetall has never raised this issue nor has any other production company). Arjun was painfully slow but in the end today it out-does Russian T-90s as was tested by our Army and is the "high end" of our Army's mechanized forces. In both these cases we accept the the engines for both these are American and German respectively and also state that we're developing our own domestic substitutes which are undergoing testing--namely the GE F414 for Tejas and DRDO-made engine for Arjun.

It might all have taken time but in the end we got a self-reliant learning curve. We might not have license-made T-72s, Su-27SKs, MiG-29s but we imported them till we developed our own systems. And without naming them as our own, we earned the trust of global suppliers at the same time formed a low level base for domestic weapon systems.

Cloning doesn't mean innovation, dude. Chinese are smart and very hard working people. You guys have lot of capability to design on your own. There's no need to clone at all. A little bit of extra time will not be embarrassing at all and rather even if it is laughed about by other countries, your scientists and engineers will benefit the most.
your above word fully how you know nothing how weapons are developed.......
 

tony4562

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J11B is a very different bird than the ones Russia sold to China. It is now powered by the domestic WS10 which finally has overcome all the technological difficulties and is being mass-produced (check out this linkl new J11. And compared with AL-31, it is slightly more powerful but several times more reliable. China also replaced all the other key parts, like FBW system, radar, cockpit, weapon suite with domestic ones, simply because domestic products are better than the russian counterparts.

The members here have often overestimated the true capabilities of russian equipment, the specs are often bloated, and the reliability with russian weapons is such that generally there is none to speak with. After spending the last 3 decades learning and absorbing western technologies and becoming the factory of the world in the process, China now has far advanced manufacturing capabilities than Russia current possesses. Yes, there is still quite a gap between Chinese products and western products, but the gap between China and Russia has been pretty much bridged. India too knows the truth, that's why it id now increasing approaching the west for weaponary. Think about why an IL-76 costs 40 million $ while a similar-speced C-17 costs 10 times more, maybe maybe just maybe the the quality gap between them is really that big.
 
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