China resumes talks with Russia on Su-35 purchase

[DaTang]

China this, China that...

Why would you go for 4++ when you are building two 5th generation aircraft ?

Someone might been sulking in the bitter drink of reality in China after signing the dotted line for Russian jet.

With J8s retiring in big numbers and all our factories occupied, we just don't have enough platforms in our current inventory. lots of possible conflicts may occur with Japan or US.

 

[DaTang]

China this, China that...

Why would you go for 4++ when you are building two 5th generation aircraft ?

Someone might been sulking in the bitter drink of reality in China after signing the dotted line for Russian jet.

or think it this way, with PAK-FA in full throttle development, why do Russian still make su35?

 

[hit&run]

or think it this way, with PAK-FA in full throttle development, why do Russian still make su35?

SU-35 started way before PAK-FA. It is a continuity/upgrade of SU-27.

PAK-FA is totally a new project.

Russia will never go back to invest in a new prototype which will be generation less than Pak-FA now. Same is the case with USA. This how things work. Russia kick started 5th generation project 10 years late than Americans even when they were mass producing and exporting 4+ generation jets.

What has Chinese done so far ? Copied Russian technology with non of its jet seen a combat or scrutiny of sales/exports to any foreign vendor.

This deal has proved everyone right who was sceptical of Chinese plunge for 5th generation jets and predicting crash landing, especially when they haven't Ironed out obstacles of 4th generation technologies.

In the hindsight of how Russia refused to sell inadequate numbers Chinese posters like @tony4562; still have the guts to address SU-35 as so called wonder jet.

His excuse further makes it more ironic that J20 still in a developing stage and may not be ready till 2020, but rich China can afford buy 48 SU-35 to learn some thing new. Why would you buy a generation less platform which will be delivered to you in two years or more when you are already down 2-4 year with 5th generation prototypes already flying.

The cost of the deal explains how skimmed the whole package is going to be and why they are doing it.

 

[ice berg]

SU-35 started way before PAK-FA. It is a continuity/upgrade of SU-27.

PAK-FA is totally a new project.

Russia will never go back to invest in a new prototype which will be generation less than Pak-FA now. Same is the case with USA. This how things work. Russia kick started 5th generation project 10 years late than Americans even when they were mass producing and exporting 4+ generation jets.

What has Chinese done so far ? Copied Russian technology with non of its jet seen a combat or scrutiny of sales/exports to any foreign vendor.

This deal has proved everyone right who was sceptical of Chinese plunge for 5th generation jets and predicting crash landing, especially when they haven't Ironed out obstacles of 4th generation technologies.

In the hindsight of how Russia refused to sell inadequate numbers Chinese posters like @tony4562; still have the guts to address SU-35 as so called wonder jet.

His excuse further makes it more ironic that J20 still in a developing stage and may not be ready till 2020, but rich China can afford buy 48 SU-35 to learn some thing new. Why would you buy a generation less platform which will be delivered to you in two years or more when you are already down 2-4 year with 5th generation prototypes already flying.

The cost of the deal explains how skimmed the whole package is going to be and why they are doing it.

Both Su-35 and T-50 are based on SU-27. Last time I checked they are still inducting SU-35s in their own airforce. If we follow your logic, it must mean that they haven't Ironed out obstacles of 4th generation technologies.

Obviously the russian deems it good enough to be a stop gap measure until their 5 gen fighter matures.

Let us wait and see if China sees the same way.

There is still no official confirmation from China as of yet, or Russia for that matter.

 

[hit&run]

Both Su-35 and T-50 are based on SU-27. Last time I checked they are still inducting SU-35s in their own airforce. If we follow your logic, it must mean that they haven't Ironed out obstacles of 4th generation technologies.

Obviously the russian deems it good enough to be a stop gap measure until their 5 gen fighter matures.

Let us wait and see if China sees the same way.

There is still no official confirmation from China as of yet, or Russia for that matter.

You should learn how to read and then answer.

SU-35 started before PAK-FA. They inducted it in their air force in 2010, will continue to do so for next 5-7 years.

My logic is not the one you are trying to make. Prove it that Pak-FA is based on SU-27. The technology regime Russians are now confident in has a pattern and continuity which is seen elsewhere as well (USA). Not the case with China.

 

[DaTang]

You should learn how to read and then answer.

SU-35 started before PAK-FA. They inducted it in their air force in 2010, will continue to do so for next 5-7 years.

My logic is not the one you are trying to make. Prove it that Pak-FA is based on SU-27. The technology regime Russians are now confident in has a pattern and continuity which is seen elsewhere as well (USA). Not the case with China.

Nah, you are mistaken, there are two Su-35s, you must have mistook the older (Su 27M) with this (Su 35S). Su35 BM, the early prototype of Su27 S (or someone also claimed it is the export version of Su35 S) only started its R&D in 2007, exactly the same year as T50, and there is no Su35s being introduced to russian air force yet. Until now, they only have 5 old Su35s ( the Su27 M) , which is not the Su 35 we talked about here, and one Su 35 S protoype.

I noticed with great disappointment, that many of you Indian members lack manner in discussion, if anything hurts your feeling, you guys always take it to rudeness,
a reflection of whole nation's maturity I have to say. this way, India is way too young. Does rudeness help you in winning the debate?

 

[DaTang]

Why I cannot edit my post?

Corrections:

Nah, you are mistaken, there are two Su-35s, you must have mistook the older (Su 27M) with this (Su 35S). Su35 BM, the early prototype of Su35 S (or someone also claimed it is the export version of Su35 S) only started its R&D in 2007, exactly the same year as T50, and there is no Su35s being introduced to russian air force yet. Until now, they only have 5 old Su35s ( the Su27 M) , which is not the Su 35 we talked about here, and one Su35 S protoype.

I noticed with great disappointment, that many of you Indian members lack manner in discussion, if anything hurts your feeling, you guys always take it to rudeness,
a reflection of whole nation's maturity I have to say. this way, India is way too young. Does rudeness help you in winning the debate?

 

[ice berg]

You should learn how to read and then answer.

SU-35 started before PAK-FA. They inducted it in their air force in 2010, will continue to do so for next 5-7 years.

My logic is not the one you are trying to make. Prove it that Pak-FA is based on SU-27. The technology regime Russians are now confident in has a pattern and continuity which is seen elsewhere as well (USA). Not the case with China.

Your logic only apply if China is planning to induct SU-35 AFTER J20. However that is not the case.

J-20 will only enter service in 2019-2020 at the earliest, and that's assuming no delays. With only a couple prototypes flying to date and WS-15 still in development, the potential for delays at this stage is quite high. Assuming 12 planes per annum delivery of Su-35s, the full batch of 48 will have been delivered by 2018-2019, representing the last combat aircraft procurement from Russia for PLAAF. So, J-11Bs with Taihang until 2015, 2015-2019 Su-35s, then J-20s all the way. This leaves no holes in the procurement schedule and makes for a good hedge. In case J-20 delivery slips, the PLAAF won't be left too far behind. It is what your own country is doing with upgraded Su-30 MKIs.

IF China buys the Su-35, it will be within the same time frame as the Russian air force. Prior to their 5 gen fighter. The same "continuity" that you mentioned.

Comprendre?

 

[DaTang]

Your logic only apply if China is planning to induct SU-35 AFTER J20. However that is not the case.

J-20 will only enter service in 2019-2020 at the earliest, and that's assuming no delays. With only a couple prototypes flying to date and WS-15 still in development, the potential for delays at this stage is quite high. Assuming 12 planes per annum delivery of Su-35s, the full batch of 48 will have been delivered by 2018-2019, representing the last combat aircraft procurement from Russia for PLAAF. So, J-11Bs with Taihang until 2015, 2015-2019 Su-35s, then J-20s all the way. This leaves no holes in the procurement schedule and makes for a good hedge. In case J-20 delivery slips, the PLAAF won't be left too far behind. It is what your own country is doing with upgraded Su-30 MKIs.

IF China buys the Su-35, it will be within the same time frame as the Russian air force. Prior to their 5 gen fighter. The same "continuity" that you mentioned.

Comprendre?

He assumes too much based on inaccurate information, I think many of our Indian friends here like to express rather than "comprendre"

 

[hit&run]

He assumes too much based on inaccurate information, I think many of our Indian friends here like to express rather than "comprendre"

This is a forum, people are free express their views on any information available. The link posted by another poster is not something made by me. Also we are aware of how information pour out of China.

 

[hit&run]

Your logic only apply if China is planning to induct SU-35 AFTER J20. However that is not the case.

Please do not apply my logic to your convenience. My logic is, a nation developing 5th generation aircraft (5-6 year away) do not have to buy 4th generation jet from another nation, they should be making and flying their own. If Chinese have the know hows of 5th generation technology it means they should have the same of previous generation. May be they have stolen this technology but this jump start is still not working ?

IF China buys the Su-35, it will be within the same time frame as the Russian air force. Prior to their 5 gen fighter. The same "continuity" that you mentioned.

You are deviating the discussion. I am hardly concerned about whether the time frame of induction of Russian 4th and 5th are same as China, especially when there are many big question marks on the China's J20 as few detailed by you. Actually Russian time frame is more realist and we in India are aware of it; being a part of that project.

Stop comparing yourself at par with Russia , this is the attitude of most of Chinese posters here in this thread. Russians are making their own 4th and 5th generation jets, but Chinese are not.

 

[ice berg]

Please do not apply my logic to your convenience. My logic is, a nation developing 5th generation aircraft (5-6 year away) do not have to buy 4th generation jet from another nation, they should be making and flying their own. If Chinese have the know hows of 5th generation technology it means they should have the same of previous generation. May be they have stolen this technology but this jump start is still not working ?

Look at your own country. They are developing 4.5(Su 30MKI) and 5 gen fighter at the same time too. Guess you dont know the difference between stop gap measure and developing then.


You are deviating the discussion. I am hardly concerned about whether the time frame of induction of Russian 4th and 5th are same as China, especially when there are many big question marks on the China's J20 as few detailed by you. Actually Russian time frame is more realist and we in India are aware of it; being a part of that project.

The time frame is EVERYTHING. It determines whether and when China should buy jets from Russia. If you dont understand this point, then I am wasting my time.
If they cant put their jets on air in time, they have to buy from Russia.

Stop comparing yourself at par with Russia , this is the attitude of most of Chinese posters here in this thread. Russians are making their own 4th and 5th generation jets, but Chinese are not.

Why not? Just because you have an inferior complex, dosnt means every one else has to agree with you.
The chinese got their own J10 and J20 and are now working with J-15 and J-16.
Does it means they are at the same stage as Russia? Sure, not, but they are trying and improving.
I have no problem aknowledging their strengths and weaknesses.

That is alot better than your one liner of how they shouldnt compare with russians.

 

[hit&run]

Why not? Just because you have an inferior complex, dosnt means every one else has to agree with you.
The chinese got their own J10 and J20 and are now working with J-15 and J-16.
Does it means they are at the same stage as Russia? Sure, not, but they are trying and improving.
I have no problem aknowledging their strengths and weaknesses.

That is alot better than your one liner of how they shouldnt compare with russians.

Just usual bull crap nothing substantial. The way you have toned down your self now make sense. Keep your tone on trying and improving no one will call you out.

 

[ice berg]

Just usual bull crap nothing substantial. The way you have toned down your self now make sense. Keep your tone on trying and improving no one will call you out.

I am not the ones who claim how LCAs gonna take out F-22s and J20s. I dont need to tone down anything.

So far I havnt seen any substantial from you either.

Come back when you have something besides one liners like this:
Stop comparing yourself at par with Russia , this is the attitude of most of Chinese posters here in this thread. Russians are making their own 4th and 5th generation jets, but Chinese are not.

 

[hit&run]

I am not the ones who claim how LCAs gonna take out F-22s and J20s. I dont need to tone down anything.

So far I havnt seen any substantial from you either.

Come back when you have something besides one liners like this:
Stop comparing yourself at par with Russia , this is the attitude of most of Chinese posters here in this thread. Russians are making their own 4th and 5th generation jets, but Chinese are not.

Stop quoting me until unless you have something good to debate. I can throw many words in vain like Inferiority complex, one liner etc., in air like you are doing. But I have no such compulsion to save a face. Come back again if you have good answer why China is buying 4th gen jet from Russia when they claim to be flying a 5th generation prototype. Go read the meaning of Prototype and come back with better excuses, I am loving tone downed defensive Chinese now.

 

[ice berg]

Stop quoting me until unless you have something good to debate. I can throw many words in vain like Inferiority complex, one liner etc., in air like you are doing. But I have no such compulsion to save a face. Come back again if you have good answer why China is buying 4th gen jet from Russia when they claim to be flying a 5th generation prototype. Go read the meaning of Prototype and come back with better excuses, I am loving tone downed defensive Chinese now.

I have already provided a reason if you bother to read instead of the usual rants.

Go read the meaning of "stopgap" and come back with better questions.
a temporary substitute for something else-the online dictionary

There could be other reasons as well.

The bottleneck in production( read J15, J16 programs), the delay of J20, a replacement for SU-27s etc. The list goes on.

However you only provided the usual China cant do it perspective without even bother to looking for other reasons. Everything is viewed in light of that. And everything that dont suit your world view is been labeled as been defensive.

Your own country is buying su-30MKI while they are waiting for PAKFAs.

I love how you play the double standard here.

Until there is an official confirmation from each side, this will be my last post here.

 

[hit&run]

I have already provided a reason if you bother to read instead of the usual rants.

Go read the meaning of "stopgap" and come back with better questions.
a temporary substitute for something else-the online dictionary.

Use your own technology for the stopgap measures, if you have any.

There could be other reasons as well.

The bottleneck in production( read J15, J16 programs), the delay of J20, a replacement for SU-27s etc. The list goes on.

I have no problem in these broad generalized excuses, like I have said it before. Every single of it reveals how China is far below average when it comes to making 4th generation fighter aircraft .

However you only provided the usual China cant do it perspective without even bother to looking for other reasons. Everything is viewed in light of that. And everything that dont suit your world view is been labeled as been defensive.

Why not, read comments of your own comrades and tell them all about ''learning, Improving, bottleneck, stopgap, there could be other reasons as well''.

Your own country is buying su-30MKI while they are waiting for PAKFAs.

We are not talking about India here, stay on the topic, I have more venom in my belly for Indian capabilities in this regard, further I have never seen a single Indian telling lies about the same.

I love how you play the double standard here.

Grow up

Until there is an official confirmation from each side, this will be my last post here.

Can we discuss on things on whatever information available, can we ? Its a free world.

I wouldn't cry a river when this thread will become useless following official contradiction and no induction of SU-35 in Chinese inventory in near or far future.