China resumes talks with Russia on Su-35 purchase

[badguy2000]

here is a lecture in Tsinghua University ,by Professor Wang Huaming,about how he and his team successfully finished "3D-printing" complicate Titanium engine component with LAsor. ,which were used on CHinese new bird,including big civilian plance C919 and 5g bird.

 

[badguy2000]

北航大学王华明教授就飞机钛合金激光快速成型的应用在中科院讲座—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

 

[ice berg]

The hype I referred to has been shown in your post. You are claiming that J10B is far more advanced than J10A without even knowing its specs. If thats not faith and hype, I don't know what is. And tell me, is it not true that there were fanboys claiming proudly that JF17 Blk II will come with a new engine and AESA radar and what not?

The reason I mentioned Pakistan is because pakistan is supposed to be your first international customer of FC-20, the export version of J10B. Hence, we do not expect them to understate the capabilities of J10B.

The relevance between JF17 and J10B is that both are chinese products. If one was overhyped, there is reasonable probability that other will be too.

There are better part of 8 years between J10 and J10B. If you think it is "hype " to assume it is more advanced than J10, it is your choice.
We know it has a diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI),This modification saves weight and improves specific engine power and stealth. It also cleans up the J-10's previous complex inlet configuration, an infra-red search and track (IRST) sensor as well as an AESA radar.

It is funny that in a post regarding the "hype" of chinese aircrafts, you have mentioned JF17 numerous times.
We are talking about J10B aint we?

Maybe if we will have a meaningful discussion if you can stick to the topic. :cool2:

Open your own Jf17 topic if you are so interested in their claims.

I am not responsible for their claims and there are no need to judge chinese "hypes" based on them.

 

[p2prada]

Purchasing foreign weapons is considered a very big decision in China, especially when it comes to strategic weapons like jet fighters, which not only may shape the future of your air force, but also have an impact on your aviation industry. Mordern jet fighters are very expensive toys and can't be easily discarded even if they don't fit.

The Su-33 talks broke down for the same reasons I suppose. Considering Liaoning is commissioned without aircraft you can speculate the Su-33s were needed before the J-15 was inducted.

Chinese defence budget has been hiked significantly over the last decade, but considering the size of Chinese defence forces and the challenges they are facing, it is still very limited. Thereforce China is gonna spend every penny carefully.

There is never enough.

The induction of Su35 of won't transform PLAAF in a way like Su27 did in the 1990s.

It keeps you at par with your rivals.

 

[p2prada]

It is not my opinion. It is PLAAF opinion as of today.

Did they tell you that? What if the reports are true and PLAAF orders the Su-35s? Can you guarantee this won't happen?

You forget that if Su-35 get inducted, around 2015, it will take 3 years to get enought numbers. We are looking at the same time frame when J-20 will get inducted.

VVS plans to induct Su-35s until 2015 followed by PAKFA immediately after that. You should have read my earlier post about it.

Due to lack of information from your own side, you need not look far for what you need done. Look at IAF. MKI production ends in 2014 and production of Super MKI will start in 2014 along with simultaneous deliveries of Super MKI from Russia. The end of Super MKI production would bring about the start of FGFA production. Perfect. End of Rafale production in the 2022-25 period and follow up of AMCA production after that. Perfect.

Production of one generation ends and the other begins. If you induct Su-35s starting from 2015 and have the entire fleet by 2018. You will then begin production of J-20. So, the time frame matches what both VVS and IAF are doing. Both countries are large fleet Flanker nations like China. So, what's logical to us will apply to you too.

Obviously you don't yet have an advanced Flanker version. Your current Flanker models may not be at par with the MKI either, so how will you match the Super MKIs with the older fleet inferior to MKIs?

It will also take time to get pilots familiar with the fighter too. By the time they are familiar with SU-35, the aircraft itself will be obsolete.

You already have Group Captain level pilots for Flankers. It doesn't get any better than that. You won't even take a year or two to get used to the Su-35. Su-35 will be obsolete compared to J-20, but that will take time. That's at least 16 years away from today, if J-20 is on time.

A far more important issue is the fact that russian jets cant be networked with chinese AWACs and other assets. That makes them virtually worthless. How are you gonna conducting SEAD missions if you cant use them with other assets?

Why? We have Russian, French and Indian aircraft. All are to be networked with Russian, French, Indian and Israeli systems. Funnily enough, it is being done this year. Your all China fleet can be networked with a Russian aircraft easily. Far, far easier.

China dont see India as a threat, no matter you believe it or not.

India sees China as a threat and for good reason. Other countries see China as a threat too, regardless of China's official position.

Maritime strikers will be far more useful to China than a new air superiority fighter.

Agreed. But that's only on the Taiwan front, not over the Himalayas. Apart from that you still need something to protect your strike fleet.

 

[GromHellscream]

Not that easier as you thought to be.

The four destroyers we bought not so many years ago, two 956A plus two 956EM, still can't be integrated to Navy's commanding system until nowadays. We lack the commanding systems Russia inherit from USSR and these ships are less useful in our hands. As the largest displacement ones in inventory, they are now in an awkward position to be used as suppletment force to 054A, a frigate.

The same applies to Russian fighters we bought. Different Datalinks, different missile and bombs, different parts. The worst part is Russians don't allow us to modify the planes we bought from them, so saying Bye to them is inevitable.

 

[shiphone]

it's safe to say that the production of the 3rd Gen(4th Gen in your standard) fighter(J10A ,J11B) has ended ...some 3rd gen fighter like J10S and J11BS are still under production.but they are both mainly considered as trainers. the production of J10A might be reopen if any foreign trade contract confirmed.

before getting the first batch 4th Gen(5th Gen) fighters around in 2016-17, now PLAAF is moving on to build up its 3.5 Gen(4.5 gen) fighter fleet consists of 2 products from SAC and CAC: J10B and J16...as we know, there is no place for Su35 in PLAAF's plan...

if any Su35 contract was signed ,we could say the real target is the engine: 117S ....but it is a slim chance...coz China was aiming at and aiding financially the development of 99M serial engine--- another variant of AL31---for a long term

Let's wait and see...

 

[Armand2REP]

I've never heard of a Russian radar on the J10... Which one is it exactly? Ever heard of links Armand? And what interest?

How many times are going to ask? I have posted it 3 times already. So for a 4th time...

J-10 has Russian radar?

If you don't know, you really shouldn't pretend.

If you went by that philosophy you wouldn't have much to say about the Chinese military. Russia isn't bound to hide China's failings.

In the PLA, pulse Doppler's all have black radomes, ala J10, JH7A, J11B, J11A etc etc. Radomes covering AESA's are grey, ie. all the 4.5 gen prototypes: J10B, J15, J16, J20 etc etc. So right there I count at least 3 different types of AESA's, not including whatever is going into J31.

Oh please... quit with the BS. Naming a radar based on the colour of the dome is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Apply your philosophy and don't say anything else before you look more ignorant.

 

[p2prada]

Not that easier as you thought to be.

The same applies to Russian fighters we bought. Different Datalinks, different missile and bombs, different parts. The worst part is Russians don't allow us to modify the planes we bought from them, so saying Bye to them is inevitable.

When I said easier, I meant compared to what IAF is doing. Btw, I forgot to add American aircraft and systems, too.

The Russians will allow the integration of datalinks. There is no reason to stop you from doing it. It would be a very unreasonable contract if they did stop it and wouldn't make sense either. It isn't like the datalinks would affect Russian IPR.

it's safe to say that the production of the 3rd Gen(4th Gen in your standard) fighter(J10A ,J11B) has ended ...some 3rd gen fighter like J10S and J11BS are still under production.but they are both mainly considered as trainers. the production of J10A might be reopen if any foreign trade contract confirmed.

Where do the numbers stand for both aircraft?

before getting the first batch 4th Gen(5th Gen) fighters around in 2016-17, now PLAAF is moving on to build up its 3.5 Gen(4.5 gen) fighter fleet consists of 2 products from SAC and CAC: J10B and J16...as we know, there is no place for Su35 in PLAAF's plan...

Can you give some specifics about the J-16? I am assuming it is a Su-30MK2 version. If this is the case, I would hardly believe it to be a Su-35 equivalent even if it is 4.5th gen.

if any Su35 contract was signed ,we could say the real target is the engine: 117S ....but it is a slim chance...coz China was aiming at and aiding financially the development of 99M serial engine--- another variant of AL31---for a long term

Any info on the 99M?

Let's wait and see...

Something that I have always proposed.

 

[J20!]

How many times are going to ask? I have posted it 3 times already. So for a 4th time...

J-10 has Russian radar?

So you're quoting a Russian forum with statements like these: "Alternatively the J-10 could be fitted with a fire-control radar introduced by Russian manufacturers," as your source?
Interestingly, that sentence isn't even complete. It ends: "Israeli, and European manufacturers on its export variant." quoting the whole paragraph:

CAC revealed that the J-10 is equipped with an indigenous fire-control radar featuring a mechanically slewed planar array antenna, capable of tracking 10 targets and engaging 2 (using semi-active radar-homing AAM) or 4 (using active radar-homing AAM) of them simultaneously. Possibly based on Russian or Israeli technologies, the radar is believed to be comparable to the early 1990s-era Western fighter radar designs. Alternatively the J-10 could be fitted with a range of fire-control radar introduced by Russian, Israeli, and European manufacturers on its export variant.

.

Your attempts at being misleading are sad at best.

If you went by that philosophy you wouldn't have much to say about the Chinese military. Russia isn't bound to hide China's failings.

"If you went by that philosophy" you'd actually research and post verifiable facts, not vague references to a Russian forum you clearly found by googling: "J10 has russian radar". I don't whether to laugh at or pity you really...

Oh please... quit with the BS. Naming a radar based on the colour of the dome is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Apply your philosophy and don't say anything else before you look more ignorant.

Well we can prove it for 2 out of 4. I know you've seen the pics of the J10B's AESA because i posted them twice for you during two of your previous trolling rampages. And we've all seenthe change of the J20s radome to grey after a radar was fitted.

J10A, J11A/B/BS and JH7A are all confirmed to carry Pulse Doppler radar's, and they all have black radomes. Its called a color CODE for a reason. If you took my advice and looked things up once in a while you'd know that too...

 

[badguy2000]

when it comes to radar, Russia has no edge on China....

China's radar tech has catch up with Europe and russia.......

of course,engine is another story....although Chinese engine tech also is under rapid developement.

however, according to the current tendency, it is just a matter of time for China-made engine to catich up with Russian ones.

 

[badguy2000]

in a word, aircraft R&D is a course to try wrongs and get to know " why it is wrong".

after trying all "wrongs" and getting to know "why it is wrong",then you can get to know how to design and manufacture a "right aircraft".

every try of "wrongs" costs much money and some time .hundreds of such tries of "wrongs" costs billions of $ and decades.


Now, CHina has enough money,so it is just matter of time that CHina-made engine comes out.

 

[shiphone]

from russian media...for your reference only

At the air show in Zhuhai Russia and China have signed a preliminary agreement on the delivery of 24 multi-role Su-35 turbofan engines equipped with the new 117C c thrust vector control. The exact amount of the deal were not disclosed, but experts believe that it will exceed $ 1.5 billion. It is expected that all the conditions of the final contract will be agreed at the end of November, during the visit of Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu to Beijing. If that happens, the military-technical cooperation between Russia and China will resume in full format. Recall that a little over a year ago, the government of China has made "‹"‹an attempt to buy the Su-35. But then it was the delivery of only four aircraft. In the end, the political leadership of our country has blocked the deal, fearing that China gets new Russian aircraft only for the future of cloning. Deputy General Director of "Rosoboronexport" Victor Komardin then explicitly stated that the sale of such a small batch of new fighters is economically unprofitable for Russia. And it is clear why. Back in 2004, China has been actively clone new Russian fighter jets and thus refused to extend the licensed assembly of Su-27. As a result, instead of 200 licensed cars Russian development, China has collected only 105. But the Chinese aircraft manufacturers on an industrial scale began issuing its own J-10 and J-11 that mimic the appearance Su-27/Su-30. The only thing the Chinese do for themselves and could not - it drives. Their government of China continues to buy in Russia. But each time a purchase is accompanied by bitter disputes - both in price and in intellectual property issues.

If the deliverable contract for the Su-35 will be concluded and implemented in full, it is possible that Russia would no longer burden the supply of its engines for the J-10 commitments to ban their supply to third countries, in particular Pakistan.

Китай закупит у России 24 истребителя Су-35

-------------------------------------------

As reported by " Vedomosti "people close to the leadership of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, and the manager of the company that produces components for military aircraft, between the " Rosoboronexport "and the Ministry of Defense of China reached a preliminary agreement on the key parameter of the contract for the supply of the latest Su-35 - their numbers. Some years the parties could not agree on the size of the party: the Russian side insisted on 48, and the Chinese - in four cars. Now, according to the interlocutors " Vedomosti ", agreed that China has 24 aircraft.

Start concrete negotiations, may be given during the visit of Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu to China in late November, and the contract - signed in the next year or two deliveries after 2015 will exceed the purchase price of $ 1.5 billion, will deliver its opinion on the bad side residue remaining after the 2004 China refused to continue the contract for licensed production of the Su-27 ( out of 200 cars made "‹"‹105) and started producing unlicensed copies based on the Su-27, the manager says. The representative of " Rosoboronexport "did not comment on this information, the representative of " Sukhoi "declined to comment.

The Su-35, first took off in 2008, is a deep modernization of the Su-27, with a redesigned airframe, a powerful new radar " Irbis ", the new engine and the new 117C armament. The plane is built by their own means " Dry "involving loans Vnesheconombank . Trial, with the first cars arrived in the Air Force contract in 2009 to 48 fighters, continue, other contracts, despite the advances in Venezuela, Vietnam and Indonesia, yet.

Chinese aircraft manufacturer AVIC almost does not endorse copies of Su-27 for export, which may be indicative of significant technical difficulties, the expert of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies , Vasily Kashin . Therefore fear imminent Chinese copying is not worth more than that, given the worsening of relations between China and its neighbors, this may not be the last contract: purchase of Su-27 in the mid-90's also started with smaller parties, like an expert.



Читайте далее: http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/6260671/bolshaya_partiya_originalov#ixzz2CmW3Otwa

http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/6260671/bolshaya_partiya_originalov

 

[ice berg]

Is this a sign that WS-15 may have run into trouble? I cant think of any other reasons for buying those jets......

 

[LurkerBaba]

Su-35: does Russia need Chinese contract?

Russia and China have clinched a preliminary agreement on the delivery of 48 Sukhoi Su-35BM fighter jets to the Chinese air force, sources in Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation said on Wednesday.

Su-35: does Russia need Chinese contract?: Voice of Russia

 

[average american]

In todays world warfare technology is everything,,so it must be interesting when your most likely enemy is being sold the same technology and systems you are.

 

[hit&run]

China this, China that...

Why would you go for 4++ when you are building two 5th generation aircraft ?

Someone might been sulking in the bitter drink of reality in China after signing the dotted line for Russian jet.

 

[tony4562]

China this, China that...

Why would you go for 4++ when you are building two 5th generation aircraft ?

Someone might been sulking in the bitter drink of reality in China after signing the dotted line for Russian jet.

It is quite possible that China just might be interested in taking a detailed look at this so-called wonder jet from Russia, particularly the engine. As I wrote early China is literally awash with money. Just the money China spends each year on metro projects (currently there are dozends such projects in like 30 cities) exceeds India's entire defence budget by a few folds. A few billions of dollars is like a drop in the ocean for China. China might also be interested in buildng an agressor squadron in order to get one step ahead of all those nasty neighbors.

Whatever stealth fighter projects China might have, it is clear that they will take time to develop. They might not be ready before 2020, and it never hurts to learn more from other advanced aviation powers. Su35 is for sure a nice aircraft, better than anything PLAAF has in service now. As it is ne of the few jet fighters today that possess the so-called super maneuvability, it is a good candidate to simulate the dreaded F-22 in close-quater combat.

Whatever, just China might buy a few Su35, says nothing about China's on-going stealth fighter projects.

 

[tony4562]

huh, 48 Su35 for 1.5 billion? Isn't Su35 supposed to cost upwards 100 million a piece? At this price, the russians could sell a few to me.

 

[ersakthivel]

It is quite possible that China just might be interested in taking a detailed look at this so-called wonder jet from Russia, particularly the engine. As I wrote early China is literally awash with money. Just the money China spends each year on metro projects (currently there are dozends such projects in like 30 cities) exceeds India's entire defence budget by a few folds. A few billions of dollars is like a drop in the ocean for China. China might also be interested in buildng an agressor squadron in order to get one step ahead of all those nasty neighbors.

Whatever stealth fighter projects China might have, it is clear that they will take time to develop. They might not be ready before 2020, and it never hurts to learn more from other advanced aviation powers. Su35 is for sure a nice aircraft, better than anything PLAAF has in service now. As it is ne of the few jet fighters today that possess the so-called super maneuvability, it is a good candidate to simulate the dreaded F-22 in close-quater combat.

Whatever, just China might buy a few Su35, says nothing about China's on-going stealth fighter projects.

Since the chinese high officials have already declared that they have wonder tech to track and shoot down the F-22 ,should they need this wonder jets to practice?


Is looking at russian jet engines for 30 years haven't taught chines anything, so thatthey have to examine the engine of these wonder jets?
The russians are selling these jets knowing full well that no amount of looking is going to transfer any know how. The HAL too is looking at the russian engines for two decades like the chinese, nothing much is ever going to come out of it.

only original design efforts will produce engine tech after decades.