China resumes talks with Russia on Su-35 purchase

[rockdog]

I support that PLAN would buy 3-6 squadron of Su-35 like 100-120 aircraft. And the reasons can be considered as:

1. Balancing the trade deficit between Russia and China, same as India, Russia suffered huge trade deficit to China, and now 80% export to China are raw materials and low end unfinished industrial products. So balance this would benefit the relationship between nations.

2. Learn Su-35, or even built a Imaginary enemy squadron, would be helpful us to understand the capability to India's Su-30 MKI even the Su-35 is half generation ahead than Indian's, this will give us more advantage when we face our competitor from subcontinent

3. Su-35 would fast increase the capability to our Navy, since the SAC so far are already full speed on production J11, J15, J16 to PLAAF, and Carrier Aircraft.
And PLAN still lack of enough good fighters to face aircraft from Japan and US on our east.

4. We still need to learn lots of technologies from it like the Engine and other stuff, they will be good compensation to our J20 and J31.

 

[DaTang]

I support that PLAN would buy 3-6 squadron of Su-35 like 100-120 aircraft. And the reasons can be considered as:

1. Balancing the trade deficit between Russia and China, same as India, Russia suffered huge trade deficit to China, and now 80% export to China are raw materials and low end unfinished industrial products. So balance this would benefit the relationship between nations.

2. Learn Su-35, or even built a Imaginary enemy squadron, would be helpful us to understand the capability to India's Su-30 MKI even the Su-35 is half generation ahead than Indian's, this will give us more advantage when we face our competitor from subcontinent

3. Su-35 would fast increase the capability to our Navy, since the SAC so far are already full speed on production J11, J15, J16 to PLAAF, and Carrier Aircraft.
And PLAN still lack of enough good fighters to face aircraft from Japan and US on our east.

4. We still need to learn lots of technologies from it like the Engine and other stuff, they will be good compensation to our J20 and J31.

You sound like you are as rich as our Indian friends.

 

[p2prada]

1. Balancing the trade deficit between Russia and China, same as India, Russia suffered huge trade deficit to China, and now 80% export to China are raw materials and low end unfinished industrial products. So balance this would benefit the relationship between nations.

It is a start. But a $5 Billion deal here would benefit your trade relations.

2. Learn Su-35, or even built a Imaginary enemy squadron, would be helpful us to understand the capability to India's Su-30 MKI even the Su-35 is half generation ahead than Indian's, this will give us more advantage when we face our competitor from subcontinent

I am not sure how the Su-35 will help you in aggressor training.

You will need at least aircraft like F-15 or F-16. You current fleet of J-11s are enough to simulate training against IAF MKIs. The same with MKIs in order for us to simulate J-11s. We have Singapore who is providing us with F-16 aggressor training in India.

You sound like you are as rich as our Indian friends.

Rather it is called, being sensible.

 

[ice berg]

Flight Global does not BS as much as you believe. They are not a pro-Ruski organization either. They may have a credible source, otherwise Rosonboronexport won't simply be lying blatantly. The first news about the Su-35 deal did not come from Flight Global, this one did.



Currently, you have no inductions planned for this decade apart from your own home made Flankers, which don't necessarily have to be better than the Su-35BM. Your 5th gen fighters will mature around the same time as the PAKFA/FGFA. So, you will need something "now" which you can induct in 2015-18 followed by aircraft like J-20 after the decade, more or less. We have a very similar plan with the Super MKI and so do the Russians with the BM. The Americans are also looking at similar options due to F-35 delays, but mostly a "major" upgrade program for their F-15 and 16 fleets.

J10b this year or next. I see no reason for buying another stop gap aircraft.

If you believe you can continue inducting older Flanker models (like J-11A/B) while completely ignoring the decade long gap between your pre-2000 models and the J-20, then you are sorely mistaken. At the same time your rivals are inducting more advanced aircraft than what you currently have during the same time period, like Super MKI, Rafale and BM. Note that these are all proven aircraft as compared to the J-20, which may take a decade more after being operational before it can be properly be inducted into PLAAF's doctrine.

Nothing that cant be counted by J-10b. Neither MKI or BM are proven as you claimed. We are looking at 6 years year time frame until J-20 shows up. 3 years if we consider SU-35 will show up no earlier than 2015.

Perhaps PLAAF believes the Su-35s can bridge the gap between what you currently have and what you will have a decade or two later. Perhaps SAC only wants Su-35s for reverse engineering and get the advanced version of J-11 (a Su-35BM equivalent) inducted before the decade, but this may take forever and at far greater cost than simply buying a regiment of BMs. Perhaps it is merely false news. So, how about we let time speak for itself.

The problem is this rumour has been around for years now. Until it is confirmed by the chinese, i will treat it as false news. The usefulness of this fighter diminishes with the maturity of chinese aviation industry. Why now if the russian offered this jet years ago?

Personally, I still stand with my earlier position of not allowing the export of the BMs. Perhaps, the above points help explain why I take such a stand.

No need to worry. China is not interested.

 

[p2prada]

No need to worry. China is not interested.

Isn't this only your opinion as of today?

The J-10 isn't in the same class. The J-10B would mean you don't need a foreign analogue of this class. I am speculating too, but the Su-35 is still the better aircraft considering a Su-35 equivalent J-11 may exist only on paper today. So, you have your Su-35/J-10B option this decade before moving to a J-20/J-xx option the next decade. Similar to our PAKFA/AMCA option after the Super MKI/Rafale.

MKI is proven. BM is a more advanced Flanker derivative, it needs less to prove unlike an entirely new airframe.

The 6 years window for J-20 would mean an additional 6 year window to get around 100-200 operational (optimistic figure) followed by another 4 year window before it is proven in service. That's 16 years from today. Do you plan on flying older model J-11 As and Bs until then? That time period is a lot.

Look, how about discussing this objectively rather than bringing nationalism into it. Nowhere in my posts are there any hints of the J-20 being inferior and hence the Su-35 option. There is merely a break in the timeline before the J-20 is properly inducted in force. The Russians are doing the same with their extremely long break between their first Su-27 purchase, the break up of the Union and the purchase of the Su-35BM and Su-30SM today to bridge the gap between 4th and 5th gen.

It's not like the J-20 will be inducted tomorrow and neither does the Su-35 clone looks promising as long as time frame is concerned.

Regardless, that gap of 16 years is not going anywhere. Fill it with an indigenous option or go for foreign.

Due to lack of information from your own side, you need not look far for what you need done. Look at IAF. MKI production ends in 2014 and production of Super MKI will start in 2014 along with simultaneous deliveries of Super MKI from Russia. The end of Super MKI production would bring about the start of FGFA production. Perfect. End of Rafale production in the 2022-25 period and follow up of AMCA production after that. Perfect.

So, we have MKI/Mirage-2000/Mig-29 combo. Super MKI/Rafale combo. FGFA/AMCA combo. Perfect.
You will have J-11/J-10 combo. Su-35BM/J-10B combo. J-20/J-xx combo. Do you see it fit?

Personally, I would prefer the second combo is left hanging without the BM because India is militarily the most vulnerable this decade due to adoption of entirely new technology and doctrines. The lack of a Su-35BM in your force would mean we have the upper hand until the J-20 matures and equalizes the tech difference, and that's a good advantage to have.

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: China resumes talks with Russia on Su-35

Come on, even the jokers at militaryphotos dont believe this russki nonsense any more.

This joke has even earn Chinese official attention, the Chinese DoD even put an official announcement to deny this russian joke, few joke get such degree of honors.

It is already well known PRC asked to buy a handful of Su-35BM, it was rejected since Russia knows first hand China only wanted to obtain them to copy it. It is telling information that China has yet to master several key technologies... engines, radar and avionics. According to the Russians, even J-10 has imported radar and engines.

 

[nimo_cn]

Flight Global does not BS as much as you believe. They are not a pro-Ruski organization either. They may have a credible source, otherwise Rosonboronexport won't simply be lying blatantly. The first news about the Su-35 deal did not come from Flight Global, this one did.



Currently, you have no inductions planned for this decade apart from your own home made Flankers, which don't necessarily have to be better than the Su-35BM. Your 5th gen fighters will mature around the same time as the PAKFA/FGFA. So, you will need something "now" which you can induct in 2015-18 followed by aircraft like J-20 after the decade, more or less. We have a very similar plan with the Super MKI and so do the Russians with the BM. The Americans are also looking at similar options due to F-35 delays, but mostly a "major" upgrade program for their F-15 and 16 fleets.

If you believe you can continue inducting older Flanker models (like J-11A/B) while completely ignoring the decade long gap between your pre-2000 models and the J-20, then you are sorely mistaken. At the same time your rivals are inducting more advanced aircraft than what you currently have during the same time period, like Super MKI, Rafale and BM. Note that these are all proven aircraft as compared to the J-20, which may take a decade more after being operational before it can be properly be inducted into PLAAF's doctrine.

Perhaps PLAAF believes the Su-35s can bridge the gap between what you currently have and what you will have a decade or two later. Perhaps SAC only wants Su-35s for reverse engineering and get the advanced version of J-11 (a Su-35BM equivalent) inducted before the decade, but this may take forever and at far greater cost than simply buying a regiment of BMs. Perhaps it is merely false news. So, how about we let time speak for itself.

Personally, I still stand with my earlier position of not allowing the export of the BMs. Perhaps, the above points help explain why I take such a stand.

Purchasing foreign weapons is considered a very big decision in China, especially when it comes to strategic weapons like jet fighters, which not only may shape the future of your air force, but also have an impact on your aviation industry. Mordern jet fighters are very expensive toys and can't be easily discarded even if they don't fit.

Chinese defence budget has been hiked significantly over the last decade, but considering the size of Chinese defence forces and the challenges they are facing, it is still very limited. Thereforce China is gonna spend every penny carefully.

Su35 is a decent plane when being matched against many of the planes in the world. And to be honest, I believe Su-35 has an edge over Chinese best planes, be it J10, or J11, especially if we take the engines into account. However, Su35 isn't something revolutionary that Chinese is looking for. It is more like something China doesn't possess now but is gonna possess in a near future.

The induction of Su35 of won't transform PLAAF in a way like Su27 did in the 1990s. The largest threats of PLAAF are facing are F22 and F35, and I don't think Su35 will make much difference to that equation. So instead of spending big money on it, it is wiser to focus on improving J10 and developing J20.

The engine on that plane attracts Chinese more than the plane itself.

 

[Defcon 1]

A J10b wouldn't be as advanced as some people are hoping. On PDF, in response to a question, the then chairman of their thinktank once claimed that J10b will be equivalent of Gripen C/D, except for maybe payload and range (where the Gripen will trail behind). Also chinese products have a reputation of having more hype than substance. Surely everyone remembers that it was being claimed that Jf17 block II will feature AESA radar and a new engine. It has not happened. The problem is, due to secretive nature of CCP, fanboys find it very easy to spread false information about a plane. Probably J10b will be export only with PLAF sticking to J10A. Lets see what time has in store.

 

[ice berg]

Isn't this only your opinion as of today?

It is not my opinion. It is PLAAF opinion as of today. Like I explained earlier. The fact is PLAAF has not bought any Su-35 despite it was offered them years ago.

Why will they buy it now when they could have done it years ago? If it is to fill the break between J-11b and J-20, then the sooner they get inducted, the better it will be.

The J-10 isn't in the same class. The J-10B would mean you don't need a foreign analogue of this class. I am speculating too, but the Su-35 is still the better aircraft considering a Su-35 equivalent J-11 may exist only on paper today. So, you have your Su-35/J-10B option this decade before moving to a J-20/J-xx option the next decade. Similar to our PAKFA/AMCA option after the Super MKI/Rafale.

The problem is PLAAF is not happy with their flankers. No doubt Su-35 is more advanced than J-11B, however does it justify setting up the logistics, buying russian weapons, engines etc? The potential flash points come from the sea, not land. Inducting maritime strikers like J-16s, JH7As etc makes far more sense than a new air superiority fighter.

MKI is proven. BM is a more advanced Flanker derivative, it needs less to prove unlike an entirely new airframe.

The 6 years window for J-20 would mean an additional 6 year window to get around 100-200 operational (optimistic figure) followed by another 4 year window before it is proven in service. That's 16 years from today. Do you plan on flying older model J-11 As and Bs until then? That time period is a lot.

You forget that if Su-35 get inducted, around 2015, it will take 3 years to get enought numbers. We are looking at the same time frame when J-20 will get inducted. It will also take time to get pilots familiar with the fighter too. By the time they are familiar with SU-35, the aircraft itself will be obsolete. A far more important issue is the fact that russian jets cant be networked with chinese AWACs and other assets. That makes them virtually worthless. How are you gonna conducting SEAD missions if you cant use them with other assets?

Look, how about discussing this objectively rather than bringing nationalism into it. Nowhere in my posts are there any hints of the J-20 being inferior and hence the Su-35 option. There is merely a break in the timeline before the J-20 is properly inducted in force. The Russians are doing the same with their extremely long break between their first Su-27 purchase, the break up of the Union and the purchase of the Su-35BM and Su-30SM today to bridge the gap between 4th and 5th gen.

The flankers can be networked with other russian assets. The same can not be said of chinese assets. Not to mention China will get inferior export version.

It's not like the J-20 will be inducted tomorrow and neither does the Su-35 clone looks promising as long as time frame is concerned.

Regardless, that gap of 16 years is not going anywhere. Fill it with an indigenous option or go for foreign.

Due to lack of information from your own side, you need not look far for what you need done. Look at IAF. MKI production ends in 2014 and production of Super MKI will start in 2014 along with simultaneous deliveries of Super MKI from Russia. The end of Super MKI production would bring about the start of FGFA production. Perfect. End of Rafale production in the 2022-25 period and follow up of AMCA production after that. Perfect.

So, we have MKI/Mirage-2000/Mig-29 combo. Super MKI/Rafale combo. FGFA/AMCA combo. Perfect.
You will have J-11/J-10 combo. Su-35BM/J-10B combo. J-20/J-xx combo. Do you see it fit?

Different threat perception. And it arrives to late. 5 years ago or even 3 years ago, maybe, but not now.

Personally, I would prefer the second combo is left hanging without the BM because India is militarily the most vulnerable this decade due to adoption of entirely new technology and doctrines. The lack of a Su-35BM in your force would mean we have the upper hand until the J-20 matures and equalizes the tech difference, and that's a good advantage to have.

You will have a upper hand with or without SU-35s. By the time it get inducted and pilots becoming proficient with it, you will have your own 5.gen fighters.
China dont see India as a threat, no matter you believe it or not.
Maritime strikers will be far more useful to China than a new air superiority fighter.

 

[ice berg]

A J10b wouldn't be as advanced as some people are hoping. On PDF, in response to a question, the then chairman of their thinktank once claimed that J10b will be equivalent of Gripen C/D, except for maybe payload and range (where the Gripen will trail behind). Also chinese products have a reputation of having more hype than substance. Surely everyone remembers that it was being claimed that Jf17 block II will feature AESA radar and a new engine. It has not happened. The problem is, due to secretive nature of CCP, fanboys find it very easy to spread false information about a plane. Probably J10b will be export only with PLAF sticking to J10A. Lets see what time has in store.

J10Bs are been inducted now. I doubt any thinktank be it pakistan or what not know enough to judge it.
More hype than substance? You mean russian fighters right?
China has never hyped about their jets afaik. We didnt even know about the J10s until they were inducted.
I see no relevance between J-17 and J-10B whatsoever.

I have no idea what you trying to say with your last sentence. J10B is far more advanced than J10a. China has few enough 4 gen fighters as it is. It wont be exported in the near future.

 

[GromHellscream]

All flankers are rubbish, that's all!

 

[G90]

Re: China resumes talks with Russia on Su-35

It is already well known PRC asked to buy a handful of Su-35BM, it was rejected since Russia knows first hand China only wanted to obtain them to copy it. It is telling information that China has yet to master several key technologies... engines, radar and avionics. According to the Russians, even J-10 has imported radar and engines.

Read the post I posted right ahead of you, dont you?

In the mean time, the russian put 117s engine (PAK-FA's jet engine) at Zhuhai airshow, but the russian officiers at Zhuhai admitted PLA shown ZERO interests in their engines here, so much for China want to buy Su-35 for their crap stone-aged PESA radar and 117s engine

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[Armand2REP]

China showed plenty of interest in russian engines and radar. They keep buying obsolete versions for the J-10. It would be obvious they haven't achieved even the Pesa much less the 4th gen engine.

 

[bose]

All flankers are rubbish, that's all!

How many cents did you earn for your post?

 

[Armand2REP]

How many cents did you earn for your post?

Half a Mao 50 cent Army gets = $0.08

 

[J20!]

China showed plenty of interest in russian engines and radar. They keep buying obsolete versions for the J-10. It would be obvious they haven't achieved even the Pesa much less the 4th gen engine.

I've never heard of a Russian radar on the J10... Which one is it exactly? Ever heard of links Armand? And what interest?

If you don't know, you really shouldn't pretend.

In the PLA, pulse Doppler's all have black radomes, ala J10, JH7A, J11B, J11A etc etc. Radomes covering AESA's are grey, ie. all the 4.5 gen prototypes: J10B, J15, J16, J20 etc etc. So right there I count at least 3 different types of AESA's, not including whatever is going into J31.

 

[Defcon 1]

J10Bs are been inducted now. I doubt any thinktank be it pakistan or what not know enough to judge it.
More hype than substance? You mean russian fighters right?
China has never hyped about their jets afaik. We didnt even know about the J10s until they were inducted.
I see no relevance between J-17 and J-10B whatsoever.

I have no idea what you trying to say with your last sentence. J10B is far more advanced than J10a. China has few enough 4 gen fighters as it is. It wont be exported in the near future.

The hype I referred to has been shown in your post. You are claiming that J10B is far more advanced than J10A without even knowing its specs. If thats not faith and hype, I don't know what is. And tell me, is it not true that there were fanboys claiming proudly that JF17 Blk II will come with a new engine and AESA radar and what not?

The reason I mentioned Pakistan is because pakistan is supposed to be your first international customer of FC-20, the export version of J10B. Hence, we do not expect them to understate the capabilities of J10B.

The relevance between JF17 and J10B is that both are chinese products. If one was overhyped, there is reasonable probability that other will be too.

 

[badguy2000]

China showed plenty of interest in russian engines and radar. They keep buying obsolete versions for the J-10. It would be obvious they haven't achieved even the Pesa much less the 4th gen engine.

rada? China-made AESA was finished several years ago and long time before J20 was assembled.

 

[badguy2000]

in fact, about in 2007 or so, I posted one news here how one CHinese scientist got awarded for his team accomlishing the AESA for 5G bird.

it was almost 4-5 years ago before J20/J31 started their maidflight.

in fact, almost every sub-systems of CHinese 5G bird had been finished and ready,before J20 started its maid-flight in 2011,except engines maybe....

WS15 ,the engine for 5G bird ,is being developed very smoothly,,,,,because CHines scientists have made a revolutionary breakthrough on 3D-printing tech.

Just recently , one Chinese scientest got top-awarded for his contrubition for such a revolutionary 3D printing tech,,,with such new tech, CHina now can "3D-printing" complicate Titanium engine component ,which can never bee maching even by USA....

 

[badguy2000]

here is the news I posted in 2008,how one Chinese scientist got awared for their finishing AESA

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...first-phased-array-radar-finished-2008-a.html