China Needles, India Responds

tony4562

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The C17 buy is not a wise one as it would incure around 1 billion dollar life time cost per aircraft, far too expensive for a country like India where unlike the Gulf stats, every penny of the tax money is hard earned. If you ask me, there are better alternatives around. Setting up a complete assembly line for IL-76 and then having the capability to produce it indigenously and as many as India wants, would probably cost far less.
 

debasree

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The C17 buy is not a wise one as it would incure around 1 billion dollar life time cost per aircraft, far too expensive for a country like India where unlike the Gulf stats, every penny of the tax money is hard earned. If you ask me, there are better alternatives around. Setting up a complete assembly line for IL-76 and then having the capability to produce it indigenously and as many as India wants, would probably cost far less.
good to see that u think so much for india he he he.....................never mind.
 

Adux

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A civilian airliner can not be compared to a dedicated military transporter in terms of versatility, but it is still quite useful to transport large amount of troops and goods. And it is not as easy picking as the person above claims. Assuming a hypothetical tibet scenario, for india to deny chinese jetliners from flying in reinforcements, you would need to have complete air superiority over that vast area. Pretty much impossible thing if you ask me.
Airspace over tibet is what Indian Air Force calls a Target Rich Enviornment. Understand the geography of India and Tibet for that. India will be shooting ducks, 300 kilometer over the great bump.
 

Adux

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The C17 buy is not a wise one as it would incure around 1 billion dollar life time cost per aircraft, far too expensive for a country like India where unlike the Gulf stats, every penny of the tax money is hard earned. If you ask me, there are better alternatives around. Setting up a complete assembly line for IL-76 and then having the capability to produce it indigenously and as many as India wants, would probably cost far less.
IL-76's dont carry tanks nor do they have very short takeoff and landing, nor do they have self-defense suites like the c-17's. We have enough money to buy c-17's. By 2025 do expect atleast 44 c-17's in the Indian fleet.
 

tony4562

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IL-76's dont carry tanks nor do they have very short takeoff and landing, nor do they have self-defense suites like the c-17's. We have enough money to buy c-17's. By 2025 do expect atleast 44 c-17's in the Indian fleet.

C-17 is foor sure a nice aircraft, but the added benefits do not justify the added cost. Plus, it is not an aircraft India really needs. Contrary what many here want to see to happen, India's defence strategy like China's is still very much defensive oriented, thus it is highly doubtful that india's military planners are planning to airlift heavy equipment deep inside enermy teritorry any time soon. India has a fairly developed railway system, thus it is not a problem for India to transport the tanks or APCs in a timely fashion to the front line.
Like Pakistan where the real threat comesfrom within in the form of taliban and al-qaida, the real threat facing India also comes from within in the form of various kinds of rebels (close to 100000 strong). To deal with them, you don't need C-17, you need better-quipped foot soldiers. The latter is exactly where India is lacking and the need is at its greatest. From pictures I've seen, indian infantrymen are ill equipped. By buying a some what less capable but much cheaper aircraft India could have spent the savings on improving trooper's living conditions and their equipment. But instead India chooses to spend money on a prestige item like the C-17. I'm very certain that those C-17s will not even spend 1% of their time carrying tanks, most of the time they will be used the same way Il-76 is used today, namely transporting relief god for the civilians.

True, China is developing a large military-grade transporter, but the motiv there is different than what is behind india's C-17 purchase. Like the J-20 project, the goal is to raise the country's aviation industry to a new level rather than targeting particular needs by the armed forces.
 
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debasree

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C-17 is foor sure a nice aircraft, but the added benefits do not justify the added cost. Plus, it is not an aircraft India really needs. Contrary what many here want to see to happen, India's defence strategy like China's is still very much defensive oriented, thus it is highly doubtful that india's military planners are planning to airlift heavy equipment deep inside enermy teritorry any time soon. India has a fairly developed railway system, thus it is not a problem for India to transport the tanks or APCs in a timely fashion to the front line.
Like Pakistan where the real threat comesfrom within in the form of taliban and al-qaida, the real threat facing India also comes from within in the form of various kinds of rebels (close to 100000 strong). To deal with them, you don't need C-17, you need better-quipped foot soldiers. The latter is exactly where India is lacking and the need is at its greatest. From pictures I've seen, indian infantrymen are ill equipped. By buying a some what less capable but much cheaper aircraft India could have spent the savings on improving trooper's living conditions and their equipment. But instead India chooses to spend money on a prestige item like the C-17. I'm very certain that those C-17s will not even spend 1% of their time carrying tanks, most of the time they will be used the same way Il-76 is used today, namely transporting relief god for the civilians.

True, China is developing a large military-grade transporter, but the motiv there is different than what is behind india's C-17 purchase. Like the J-20 project, the goal is to raise the country's aviation industry to a new level rather than targeting particular needs by the armed forces.
dont wory foot soldier modernisation is going as well,there are some technical glitch,but hope the f-insas will be ready before 2020.and by the way technolodgy only does not win a battle,human courage and ability also nead ,our soldiers are are hardened up agaist countering insurjency at various stages,on the other hand urs country do not face any such challenge,they r very good at supressing their own people like tian un men squre ,know u will give example of 1961,but it was a trechary by the part of mao the situation will be different these time.
 

Adux

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C-17 is foor sure a nice aircraft, but the added benefits do not justify the added cost. Plus, it is not an aircraft India really needs.
You opinion has zero value. Especially when I read the rest of bile, which is cleverly yet unsuccessfully trying to hide your sense of superiority over Indianswhich is most definitly misplaced, also your disdain and condecending attitude, because you cant stomach the truth, that there is a really great power, which is coming from zero and has already surpassed you on very index that matters, You can repeat this stupid idea that, we arent worthy foes to you, and you are the only challenger to Americans. Alas, reality isnt so. So my favorite thing to do is, hit you little penis chicoms with some reality hammers. The Moderators have been criminally kind over here on the chicom members for allowing their condescending attitude to go on in an Indian forum,


Contrary what many here want to see to happen, India's defence strategy like China's is still very much defensive oriented, thus it is highly doubtful that india's military planners are planning to airlift heavy equipment deep inside enermy teritorry any time soon. India has a fairly developed railway system, thus it is not a problem for India to transport the tanks or APCs in a timely fashion to the front line.
C-17's is China specific, Rail Penetration in North East India is very poor, therefore the most important feature STOL. Indians dont buy what they dont want. Have you seen the delievery dates for C-17's, the primary purpose of the whole purchase, is to offset the Chinese logistic advantage, while Indian logistics in terms roads, rails, and others catch up. India is not defensive, but reactive. There is a difference.


Like Pakistan where the real threat comesfrom within in the form of taliban and al-qaida, the real threat facing India also comes from within in the form of various kinds of rebels (close to 100000 strong).
No we are not Pakistan, try your equal equal India -Pakistan game somewhere. Taliban and Al-Qaida doesnt equal a Maoist. The only reason they still have some pockets influence is that we know they are our people, and Government of India is benevolent of them. Your arse must really hurt after pooping out 1000000000 number.


To deal with them, you don't need C-17, you need better-quipped foot soldiers. The latter is exactly where India is lacking and the need is at its greatest.
Yes our IMA educated and Sandhurst qualified Generals arent good, you are. Eff'off.

From pictures I've seen, indian infantrymen are ill equipped. By buying a some what less capable but much cheaper aircraft India could have spent the savings on improving trooper's living conditions and their equipment
.

Who said just because we spend money on C-17's we dont have on them. More bile.

But instead India chooses to spend money on a prestige item like the C-17. I'm very certain that those C-17s will not even spend 1% of their time carrying tanks, most of the time they will be used the same way Il-76 is used today, namely transporting relief god for the civilians.
You are such an incompentent military analyst that you arent aware that nobody uses c-17's a strategic airlifter for COIN ops. Do you know why we have C-130's and AN-32's?

True, China is developing a large military-grade transporter, but the motiv there is different than what is behind india's C-17 purchase
India cares about its military men, much more than Chicoms who uses them as cannon fodder.


.
Like the J-20 project, the goal is to raise the country's aviation industry to a new level rather than targeting particular needs by the armed forces
You must havent finished xeroxing. thats why you are late. J-20, bah! you could have done better with a mig 1.44 copy.
 
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tony4562

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Guys here sound like India has an infinite amount of money, may I remind you that countries with per capital income 50 times that of India's are facing drastic budget cuts.
Also I didn't pull the 100000 number out of a hat. This wiki article notes that the maoist groups alone account for 10000-40000 regular members and 50000-100000 militia members. In addition, there are other insurgency groups, such as indigenous tribes in the north east and the various groups among the muslim , shiks ranks.
 
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Guys here sound like India has an infinite amount of money, may I remind you that countries with per capital income 50 times that of India's are facing drastic budget cuts.
Also I didn't pull the 100000 number out of a hat. This wiki article notes that the maoist groups alone account for 10000-40000 regular members and 50000-100000 militia members. In addition, there are other insurgency groups, such as indigenous tribes in the north east and the various groups among the muslim , shiks ranks.
India spend less than 3% of GDP on defense.
 

Adux

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Guys here sound like India has an infinite amount of money, may I remind you that countries with per capital income 50 times that of India's are facing drastic budget cuts.
Please dont bother about our money, We spend 1.8% of our GDP on Defense, while you spend 4%. What has per capita income got to do with defense budgeting. I see what you tried to do there, Your per capita income is also very less than Sweden, cut your defense budget now!

Also I didn't pull the 100000 number out of a hat. This wiki article notes that the maoist groups alone account for 10000-40000 regular members and 50000-100000 militia members. In addition, there are other insurgency groups, such as indigenous tribes in the north east and the various groups among the muslim , shiks ranks
Wiki is an awesome source to quote, There are no real figures. has somebody done a census on the Maoist? Except for a very few. the rest are villagers. So Eff off!
 

Dark_Prince

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Guys here sound like India has an infinite amount of money, may I remind you that countries with per capital income 50 times that of India's are facing drastic budget cuts.
Also I didn't pull the 100000 number out of a hat. This wiki article notes that the maoist groups alone account for 10000-40000 regular members and 50000-100000 militia members. In addition, there are other insurgency groups, such as indigenous tribes in the north east and the various groups among the muslim , shiks ranks.
Guy, you require a lot of reading beyond Wiki.......100000 rebels? May be in Tibet and "Sikh ranks -where in China???:becky:
 

tony4562

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India spend less than 3% of GDP on defense.
It's not the percentage of GDP that counts, its the percentage of budget, and in India's case the amount of hard currency she has as india still imports 70% of military hardware from abroad. How much does India spent on for example education, research, health care, infrastructure compared with defence?
 
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It's not the percentage of GDP that counts, its the percentage of budget, and in India's case the amount of hard currency she has as india still imports 70% of military hardware from abroad. How much does India spent on for example education, research, health care, infrastructure compared with defence?
3-10 times the amount on defense. Govt want to spend 1 trillion on infrastructure over 5 years .

India needs $1 trillion infrastructure spending over 5 yrs: PM - Economy and Politics - livemint.com
 

tony4562

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Guy, you require a lot of reading beyond Wiki.......100000 rebels? May be in Tibet and "Sikh ranks -where in China???:becky:
if you live in the big city, you of course won't see that many. But the fact that you are not seeing the rebels killing the landlords or assaualting security posts on the country side, does not mean the rebles don't exist or the killings don't happen. Maoist rebels have a plan to establish a true communist society (different from China's which they call fake) in India in 2050, they sure know what they are doing.
 

tony4562

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China spends less on defence than India does, the offcial figure is only slightly over 1% of the GDP. SIPRI estiamtes that China actually spends 2.2% of her GDP whereas India spends close to 3%.
 
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China spends less on defence than India does, the offcial figure is only slightly over 1% of the GDP. SIPRI estiamtes that China actually spends 2.2% of her GDP whereas India spends close to 3%.
India has a smaller economy and China understates her spending the real numbers are not disclosed to anyone.
 

Adux

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It's not the percentage of GDP that counts, its the percentage of budget, and in India's case the amount of hard currency she has as india still imports 70% of military hardware from abroad. How much does India spent on for example education, research, health care, infrastructure compared with defence?
No, Little Chicom, its something called Finance, Since you couldnt do the Per capita, now you jump to Budget. India spends less than 15% on defense. In a neighborhood which has the worlds worst countries, that is Pakistan and China, its less.Unlike you lot, we get top of the line technology and offsets. Therefore we jump on the scales faster and with complete support of other countries. While you steal soviet technology and steal IPR every where. Therefore your jumps are lower, unpopular and non effective, and more expensive in the long run.
 

Adux

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China spends less on defence than India does, the offcial figure is only slightly over 1% of the GDP. SIPRI estiamtes that China actually spends 2.2% of her GDP whereas India spends close to 3%.
Yes, China spend 2.2, then spends another 2.2 later that year. 6 months- 6 months only
 

Tshering22

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Why should China be worried about such a tiny tactical advantage Inida will only enjoy several years from now?
Actually just 3 years from now. You seriously think that you've overshot US capacity to manufacture?

On China's perceived potential adversary list India is way down, and the list itself is populated by countries that possess weapons several magnitudes greater.
And yet you needlessly needle into our border claiming this and that, claim Vietnamese and Philippines' territory and threaten Japanese and Indonesians to clear off. Apart from USA, which other "several magnitudes greater wielder of weapons" nation is on your list? Your CCP was going on a fine track till 2008. But as everybody says, they just spilled the beans a little too early to launch a surprise.

US has over 200 such tools, and the chance of a armed conflict between China and US, at least in the eyes of the Chinese, is much greater than a conflict between China and India. If China is afraid of India's 10 C-17s, what should China do facing America's vast war mchine? Drill a hole in the sand and bury her head in it?
You cannot fight USA. Even if by some miracle you manage to "win" (like you did with Soviets in 1969), you will only destroy yourselves in the process since you and them are economically bound. This is the drawback of getting entangled with a country that you think is an adversary but cannot fight it at the same time to save your own self.

On the contrary, if your CCP goes down the current path, the possibility for a war or conflict or skirmishes between you-us, you-Japan, you-Vietnam, you-Indonesia etc is much greater than US vs you.

One thing indians do NOT understand is that China pusues her own path of development, military or civilian. What her neighbors do regarding defence purchases, is irrelevant to her. India could get a few F22 tomorrow if US decides to play santa, even if that happens China is not going to pee in her pants. There is probably a context between india and china, but it is not a military one.
We already have other plans as to the "USA playing santa with F22" of yours, as you can obviously see. Your government's reactions vis a vis her neighborhood are however very different from the calm attitude your comments seem to exude. ON the bolded part, your statement is wrong. China follows what the USA does for development. Everything from architecture, road, infrastructure etc is what USA/Japan/Singapore/Taiwan have is what you've been ideas from. It is certainly good I don't deny that, but the statement you make is.

I never said you will pee in your pants, but there is more than just a hiccup that is audible from the Great People's Hall everytime CCP tries to make international goof-ups. The problem is, your government thinks small=weak. But CCP should know more than anyone why thinking like that is wrong.
 

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This wiki article notes that the maoist groups alone account for 10000-40000 regular members and 50000-100000 militia members. In addition, there are other insurgency groups, such as indigenous tribes in the north east and the various groups among the muslim , shiks ranks.
Wiki could give you good reference material but please please do not rely on Wiki solely, to prove something. Wiki's inaccuracy is no secret.

India is not a homogenous population. It is multi-cultural, multi-ethnic and multi-lingual country. Our diversity is our beauty and our challenge at the same time. We love it both ways :)
With such a lot in our house there is obvious difference of opinion.
Coming to the dissent, we don't deny or supress it; we discuss it. We discuss it as soon as the parties come together to do so, without putting guns on each other's head (thats not a way to discept something right? :D )
And as I've been saying here earlier as well, if there is dissent visible in some of our communities it is because they are allowed to show it whenever they feel.
Occasionally people might vent it out on the establishment or some other people because they're free to do so in a free country - if you know what I mean. So thats just the way we are, a free lot and so are our ways of expression in joy and grief.
If you're saying we are not handling it? Our government, groups of civil society and socio-religous are already engaged with the dissented. We can do it tiananmen squarish way but thats your way, Chinese way .. we'll do it our way .. no offense mate :)

Regards,
Virendra
 
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