China naval fleet seen off northern Japan

SilentKiller

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You didn't grab my point: It is rediculous that Mr RAY can get his impression that Russia will not be pleased. Why they should be worried?
They already settled their land and sea border with Chinese.
They know currently Chinese is focusing Japan and US--the alliance that China will be struggling with in next 3 decades in its neighbourhood.
They know that Chinese would need their support as much as they need Chinese.

one of problems with indian is that most of indians always see things emotionally, not objectively.
well we make lots of love story movies...:thumb:
russians don't see chinese as good ally but just a seller for their military hardware.
reason is what happened during soviet times, many there believe downfall of communism in Europe is because soviets and chinese couldn't get along.
right now chinese might be a sort of partner as russians view US more of a threat (still cold war mentality)

Japanese rise is always feared, even by west, same is case of russia too. If chinese can remains away from russian area of influence, then no issues.
chinese military rise is not getting welcomed across asia, baring few nations particularly in south east Asia.
do chinese want to be another mindless power or a responsible power, this is what chinese needs to think.
 

Ray

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Here is an assessment of the Marine Cooperation 2012.

This 2013 exercise that is being discussed is the largest Russia China exercise.

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ASSESSING THE SINO-RUSSIAN NAVAL EXERCISE "MARITIME COOPERATION 2012"

by Richard Weitz

Russia and China conducted their first official bilateral naval exercise (variously referred to as "Maritime Cooperation 2012" and "Sea Interaction 2012") from April 22-27 in the Yellow Sea near Qingdao, China.

The exercise was a genuinely mixed operation, in which both countries made major contributions to the drills.

Although China supplied more ships, some of the Russian vessels were very advanced.

The Russians and Chinese shared important command, control, and communications functions during the drills, which practiced their combat interoperability and the effectiveness of their control, electronics, and information systems.

The combined fleet simulated the rescue of a hijacked ship, escorting commercial vessels in pirate-infested waters, joint maritime air defense, anti-submarine tactics, maritime search and rescue.

The two countries had conducted joint naval maneuvers as part of their larger military exercises conducted under the auspices of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO). Peace Mission 2005, essentially a bilateral Russia-China exercise nominally within the SCO framework, featured a much larger naval component than the Maritime Cooperation 2012, as well as accompanying ground force drills. But the recent maneuvers occurred outside the SCO. The SCO plans to hold its Peace Mission 2012 exercise next month in northern Tajikistan.

Although aircraft and special forces did conduct a joint maritime anti-terror task in the exercise, the two governments declined to formally characterize the drills as having primarily an anti-terrorist purpose, citing a more diverse set of goals, including improving interoperability, sharing techniques, rehearsing skills, and enhancing regional stability.

The exercise was thus comparable in purpose to many of the other naval exercises conducted in the Asia-Pacific region.

Russia deployed four combat ships and three supply vessels from its Pacific Fleet, which is headquartered in Vladivostok. The Slava-class cruiser Varyag, the flagship of the Russian Pacific Fleet, was present, along with three Udaloy-class anti-submarine destroyers–the Admiral Vinogradov, Marshal Shaposhnikov and Admiral Tributs (the last of the three being from the Northern Fleet), the tugboat MB-37, the fleet tanker Pechenga, and the SB-22 supply ship. During the live fire drills, ship-to-ship communications were conducted in Russian. In April 2009, the 11,500-ton Varyag had led the formation of foreign ships on review at the celebrations marking the 60th anniversary of the PLAN's founding.

China contributed 4,000 service members, 16 ships (5 missile destroyers, 5 missile frigates, 4 missile boats, a support vessel and hospital ship), 2 submarines, and 13 aircraft and five shipboard helicopters. These ships likely are part of the Northern Fleet of the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN), which is based at the port city of Qingdao in the Yellow Sea.

The PLAN Type 052 Luhu-class multi-role destroyer Harbin, a domestically-produced, second-generation ship that is the Northern Fleet's flagship, acted as the command vessel, responsible for directing both sides' ships, submarines and fighters.

The rest of the Chinese contingent consisted of:

four guided missile destroyers, including the Shenyang (Type 051C Luzhou-class ), Fuzhou (of the Russian Sovremenny-class ) and Taizhou (an improved Project 956EM Sovremenny ),
the guided missile frigates Luoyang and Mianyang (both Type 053H3 Jiangwei-II-class ),
and the Type 054A Jiangkai-II-class frigates Yiyang, Zhaoshan and Xuzhao.
The Fuqing-class fleet oiler Hongzhu was tasked with replenishment duties.


(Photo: The Type 039 (NATO reporting name: Song class) is the diesel-electric submarine designed by Wuhan Ship Development and Design Institute (701 Institute) for the PLA Navy (PLAN). Construction of the submarine was carried out by Wuhan Shipbuilding Industry Company (also known as Wuchang Shipyard or 438 Factory) in Wuhan, Hubei Province and Jiangnan Shipyard Group Corporation in Shanghai. At least 16 hulls have been delivered to the PLA Navy since 1994. Credit:Type 039G/G1 (Song Class) Diesel-Electric Submarine - SinoDefence.com)


The Chinese fleet also included four missile boats, two submarines (at least one of which was a Type 039G1 Song-class ), and a hospital ship.

The exercises were carried out in two phases.

The first being a command-and-control phase, and the second being an "active" phase that included live-fire exercises and other ship maneuvers off the coast of Qingdao in the Yellow Sea.

In this respect it was similar to Peace Mission 2005 in its first two phases, although the SCO exercises included a third phase of amphibious operations. Russian ships arrived at Qingdao, the base of operations for the exercise, on April 21, and the exercises themselves began the next day.

The first phase consisted of preparation of headquarters and naval units and the deployment of ships. The two sides also practiced relaying information between Russian and Chinese naval command stations and the joint headquarters of the exercises.

On April 25, the active phase of the exercises began, with sailors engaging in tactical drills with small arms and RPGs aimed at defending their ships from hijacking. This was followed by the ships fending off simulated air attacks, resupplying at sea and moving into an area containing enemy submarines. On April 26, the two sides conducted a joint counter-hijacking and naval escort drill consisting of thirteen naval vessels, four helicopters and two special operations teams.

Five of the warships conducted a naval escort for four merchant ships, which, minutes later, were attacked by four pirate boats. The naval escorts and their shipboard helicopters quickly drove the boats away. The two sides also simulated a raid on a hijacked Chinese merchant ship, with 20 Chinese and Russian special operators successfully boarding the ship and rescuing hostages.

Following these drills, both sides conducted live-fire anti-ship exercises later that day aimed at targets roughly 30 kilometers away. Then they conducted joint anti-aircraft and anti-submarine drills. The anti-submarine exercise employed a sonar target to test submarine detection capabilities as well as anti-submarine munitions, specifically rocket-propelled depth charges. The drill was conducted with the Admiral Tributs' shipboard Ka-27 helicopters searching for the sonar target, and then reporting its coordinates to the anti-submarine ships, which deployed countermeasures.

According to the Chinese, all the live-fire exercises were completed with "perfect precision." Later that day, a fleet review was held, marking the end of the active phase of the exercise. The exercises officially ended on April 27 with a closing ceremony.

The latest exercise, like previous Russian-Chinese drills within the SCO and bilaterally, serve multiple purposes.

In the past, Russian officials have used the drills as an opportunity to showcase to the Chinese defense community certain weapons systems that they want to sell to China. A more enduring goal is to improve the operational and tactical proficiency of both militaries and increase their level of interoperability. The two navies have been operating together in the Gulf of Aden, fighting Somali-based pirates, and they may have wanted to improve their interoperability in such operations.

Another goal of these exercises is to underscore the high level of defense cooperation between China and Russia.

The exercises are not explicitly intended for the classic purpose of collective defense. The combined maneuvers do affirm the two countries' commitment to defense cooperation as an important dimension of their evolving bilateral relationship. Nikolai Markov, the chief of the Russian General Staff, said that "Russia sees great importance in promoting cooperation between the two militaries and the naval exercise shows that bilateral strategic coordination is at a high level."

Collaborating through joint exercises could also be seen as a form of mutual confidence building.

Chen Bingde, Chief of the PLA General Staff, said that the maritime exercises would promote "strategic coordination and mutual trust" between the Chinese and Russian military establishments.

In terms of political signaling to third parties, the maneuvers affirm to the United States and other countries that China and Russia are willing and able to cooperate to advance their joint security interests in the Asia-Pacific region.

Maritime Cooperation 2012 took place amidst growing tensions in the western Pacific over territorial disputes.

China has overlapping maritime claims with several of its neighbors, with the disputes centered on islands located within overlapping exclusive economic zones, including with Japan over islands in the East China Sea. Meanwhile, Russia's territorial dispute with Japan over the Northern Territories has become newly acute in recent years.

The China-Russia exercise occurred at the same time as a U.S. amphibious exercise with the Philippines involving nearly 7,000 troops, which included high-profile island landings a few days before the Sino-Russian drill was scheduled to start. Contingents from Australia, Japan, and South Korea also participated in these exercises.

PRC analysts saw the U.S.-Philippines drill as directed against China, considering it part of the wider "pivot" towards Asia.

The Peoples' Liberation Army Daily wrote that "the mentality behind this sort of military exercise will lead to the road of military confrontation and armed force as a resolution." Chinese and Filipino warships have been locked in a standoff since April 10 over territorial disputes concerning the Scarborough Shoal. While the recent spat over the Scarborough Shoal could not have been a factor driving China and Russia to hold Maritime Cooperation 2012, the U.S.-Philippines maneuvers were planned months in advance, and some analysts have suggested that Beijing may have wanted to make a statement by holding contemporaneous exercises.

The drills with the Philippines are not the only U.S. military activity concerning China in the region. Three U.S. ships began a five-day visit to Vietnam on April 23, which included salvage and disaster training, although no live-fire drills were conducted. The exchange is an annual event, and this year's exchange had been planned for months, although U.S. officials deny that it was coordinated with the U.S.-Philippines drill.

They also follow a series of U.S.-South Korean military exercises that some Chinese and Russian commentators have denounced as exacerbating tensions on an already tense Korean Peninsula. PRC officials have been especially incensed that some of these exercises have occurred in the China's Yellow, near China's industrial heartland and along routes where imports reach key Chinese coastal cities. Yana Leksyutina, associate professor of international relations at St. Petersburg State University, said that the exercises serve as a warning to the U.S. to avoid military expansion at the expense of Russian and Chinese interests, and that "the joint drill is a response to recently intensified military drills in the Yellow Sea, East China Sea and South China Sea by the US and its allies."

Chinese and Russian representatives dismissed suggestions that they intended to send a message with their joint exercises. PRC Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Weimi denied that Maritime Cooperation 2012 was a response to the recent U,S.-South Korean drills or any other external military actions. "As a big country in the Asia-Pacific region, China has a great responsibility to use this drill to contribute to regional stability and peace," he said. "We hope the various parties will view this drill objectively and not link it with other events."

"China and Russia holding joint military exercises is normal," said Defence Ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng. "The exercises are not considering a third party as an enemy." Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said the drill was not directed against "third states" and was not an effort to forge a Sino-Russia military alliance. Since the China and Russia agreed to conduct their first joint naval exercise when Chen visited Moscow the previous August, these denials are probably accurate insofar as they refer to any attempt to match the concurrent U.S. exercises in the Pacific.

In addition, the Russian government and influential Russian companies like Gazprom are working closely with Vietnam, South Korea, and other Asian countries besides China, so Moscow would not invariably side with Beijing in any territorial dispute.

In particular, Gazprom has reached a deal with PetroVietnam that will allow the Russian energy corporation to explore natural gas reserves off the Vietnamese coast. The Chinese government subsequently warned "third countries" to stay away from the South China Sea.

But the decision to hold the bilateral maritime exercise probably did aim to bolster both countries' strategic influence in Asia.

Chen acknowledged that, through the joint naval drills, China and Russia "demonstrate their confidence to maintain peace and stability in the region and world."

Rear Admiral Leonid Sukhanov, Deputy chief of the Main Staff of the Russian Navy and the commander of the Russian contingent to Maritime Cooperation 2012, said that the "[p]articipating naval forces will train in the prevention of armed conflicts in exclusive economic zones," implying a desire to affirm these disputed territorial claims.

Chinese and Russian analysts also attribute the exercises to a general Sino-Russian desire to counter the announced augmentation to U.S. military power in the Asia-Pacific region. Russian sources cited retired PLA generals as describing Maritime Cooperation 2012 as a manifestation of deepening Sino-Russian military cooperation in response to the Pentagon's Asian pivot. Igor Korotchenko, chief editor of the National Defense magazine, added that while "China is not Russia's military ally "¦. as strategic partners, we want peace and stability on our borders."

Even so, the executive director of the Chinese navy for the drill, Rear Admiral Duan Zhangxian, deputy chief of staff of the PLA Navy, gave notice that, "The Chinese navy strives for peace. However, if anyone infringes on the country's peace, we will not be afraid to fight for it."

http://www.sldinfo.com/assessing-the-sino-russian-naval-exercise-“maritime-cooperation-2012”/
 

Ray

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The Socialist view of the 2013 Naval exercise

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China and Russia hold naval exercise in Sea of Japan

Tensions in the Sea of Japan were raised last week as a major naval exercise between China and Russia came under close observation by a simultaneous air exercise conducted by Japan and United States only a few hundred kilometers away.

The joint exercise conducted by China and Russia from July 8–10, in Peter the Great Bay, off the coast of Vladivostok, was the largest ever between China and another nation. It demonstrated the growing relationship between the two countries, aimed at countering the US "pivot to Asia," which includes deploying 60 percent of American naval and air forces to the Asia-Pacific as part of a drive to confront China.

The "Joint-Sea 2013" exercise involved 11 surface ships and one submarine from Russia, including the Varyag, a guided-missile cruiser and the flagship of the Russian Pacific Fleet, and seven Chinese ships, all newly built in the 2000s. China's contingent consisted of four destroyers, two guided missile frigates and a support ship. The commander of the Chinese fleet, Major General Yang Junfei, said it was "our strongest lineup ever in a joint naval drill."

The drills between the two navies were clearly aimed at repelling an attack from a hostile force, not dealing with terrorism or piracy as previous exercises have been presented. Chinese media outlets highlighted reports that the Chinese warships had more than 160 surface-to-air missiles, "enough to deal with the warplanes of a US aircraft carrier." Russian SU-24 fighter-bombers simulated air strikes on the fleet, while Chinese and Russian vessels conducted anti-submarine drills against a Russian Kilo, reputed to be one of the quietest submarines in the world.

Russia and China plan to follow up the naval exercises with joint land/air drills, to be held between July 27 and August 15 in the Ural Mountain region of Chelyabinsk, ostensibly focusing on anti-terrorism.

Provocatively, the US and Japan held a joint air exercise on almost exactly the same dates, from July 8 to 12, in the airspace around Hokkaido. The drills were designed to send a message to China and Russia that American military dominance in the region would remain. The air drills involved eight F-15s and eight F-16s from each country and continued 24 hours a day. Japanese officials admitted that the exercises were monitoring the "entire process" of the Russo-Chinese naval drills.

This is just the latest in a long line of US provocations. Despite the claim that China is a growing military threat in the region, it is the US that is using its superior military might in a bid to arrest its relative economic decline while trying to undermine China's influence. In April, Washington flew nuclear-capable B-2 and B-52 strategic bombers to the Korean peninsula in the midst of sharp tensions with North Korea, China's ally, over its nuclear programs.

Last month, Japan and the US conducted a two-week joint exercise in California, codenamed "Dawn Blitz," with a scenario of retaking an island. China called for the exercise to be cancelled but was ignored. With China and Japan locked in a tense dispute over the Senkakus/Diaoyu islands in the East China Sea, the Obama administration sent a thinly-veiled message to Beijing that Washington will back Japan against China if war breaks out over the islets.

Russia and China have developed a closer relationship in response to the growing US threats. Ever since the US-led invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, Russia and China have developed the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SEO) to counter the US intervention into the Central Asia region. The regional rivalry was evident when Washington backed the former Soviet republic of Georgia against Russia, leading to a brief regional war in 2008.

In March, Chinese President Xi Jinping made Russia his first stop during his first foreign visit as president, in order to emphasise the "top priority" of the "special relationship" with Russian President Vladimir Putin's regime. Xi was the first foreign leader to be invited into Moscow's military command centre, where he was reportedly shown a computer simulation of how the US missile defence system undermines global nuclear "balances."

Beijing and Moscow have enhanced their strategic cooperation in recent weeks. This included signing a $270 billion deal to triple Russian oil shipments to China for the next 25 years. The supply will reach 46 million tonnes a year—or nearly one tenth of Russia's current oil output. Russia is due to receive $70 billion as an immediate payment, because China is desperately seeking to secure energy supplies in the face of an increasingly overt American threat to cut off its shipping lanes via the "pivot" strategy.
In an attempt to bolster China as counterweight to the US, Russia also agreed to sell Beijing advanced weapon systems. China reportedly secured a deal last month to buy 100 of the latest SU-35 fighters from Russia. This aircraft is believed to be able to outperform any of its rivals, such as Japan's F-15Js, except America's most advanced F-22 stealth fighters.

Closer strategic ties between Russia and China are another clear sign that, by recklessly building up military capacities and alliances to confront the two countries, US imperialism is sowing the seeds for a new global conflagration.

China and Russia hold naval exercise in Sea of Japan - World Socialist Web Site

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This sentence - Closer strategic ties between Russia and China are another clear sign that, by recklessly building up military capacities and alliances to confront the two countries, US imperialism is sowing the seeds for a new global conflagration. clearly indicates how worried people are about the US in the Pacific!
 

Virendra

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These joint exercises are increasingly becoming a way of projecting oneself as the "Go-To" power in a region.
I hope Japan is in way of breaking the self imposed shackles.
 

TrueSpirit

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Indeed, if we did want to think about that issue, then the aggregate behavior of Indian citizens does show that they are often more objective than emotional, not least when it comes to voting for politicians on the basis of direct material benefits like TVs, ethnic-specific work quotas, and subsidized food.
100% fact. A substantial proportion of Indian electorate (those who actually exercise their ballot) votes on basis on cast-specific reservations, subsidies, quotas, freebies & to some extent on rhetoric....& this particular demeanor becomes the undoing of nation's development.

India is not a meritocracy as you already know. It's a popular nation that whatever little good has happened in India is not because of govt. but despite the govt. The very govt. that is elected by these very whiners (either due to their complicity or apathy).
 

amoy

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Enough catalysts for the SPECIAL relationship btwn China and Russia

External pressure...........NATO expansion, TMD, Pivot to Asia, Syria etc. etc.
Internal urge...................China's energy security anxiety & Russia's resource-oriented economy
Regional challenges.......CAR (Afghanistan in particular); Japan in territorial spats with both R & C
Demography...................Russia's Far East development etc.

China's monument of Soviet Red Army
 

J20!

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If simply passing through the straits is an aggressive act, then what would holding amphibious drills to retake small islands be? Benign?
 
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TrueSpirit

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Such posturing need not be discussed length-&-breadth in the first place when "intent" is the only aspect being displayed.

The capability-gap between the Japanese Navy & PLAAN is all too well known for any major conflagration to ensue. So, these maneuvers in themselves are inconsequential when it comes to regional security dynamics.
 

Compersion

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100% fact. A substantial proportion of Indian electorate (those who actually exercise their ballot) votes on basis on cast-specific reservations, subsidies, quotas, freebies & to some extent on rhetoric....& this particular demeanor becomes the undoing of nation's development.

India is not a meritocracy as you already know. It's a popular nation that whatever little good has happened in India is not because of govt. but despite the govt. The very govt. that is elected by these very whiners (either due to their complicity or apathy).
You make you points that are valid. but the beauty of the system in india it is not handcuffed and has continuity of its executive and the setup is geared for representatiiom of the masses. the reality is india is a nation of different people with differenet views. the parliamenrty system enjoins the privlege to these people to be represented and form the government. its only fair. But we are a young democracy and who knows tomorrow but compared to yesterday its better. Can you guarantee me the next leadership in prc won't be a Zhao Ziyang (served: 1980-1988). Will your views be represented. Deep down that's the risk. But prc has been blessed with some good leadership before. Zhu rongji was at the right time and right place.
 

amoy

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@Compersion Nope India is no longer a "young" democracy, compared to Japan, who transitioned late 1940s, and S Korea / Taiwan early 1990s from dictatorship.

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2
 
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W.G.Ewald

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If simply passing through the straits is an aggressive act, then what would holding amphibious drills to retake small islands be? Benign?
The article did not say or imply it was an aggressive act,
A Chinese naval fleet was Sunday spotted sailing for the first time through an international strait between northern Japan and Russia's far east, the Japanese defence ministry said.
The observation was made it was the first time such a transiting had occurred. The event was significant as an indicator.
 

J20!

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The article did not say or imply it was an aggressive act,


The observation was made it was the first time such a transiting had occurred. The event was significant as an indicator.
No, but Ray did. I wasn't replying your article as much as I was replying Ray's erroneous assumptions.
 

Compersion

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@Compersion Nope India is no longer a "young" democracy, compared to Japan, who transitioned late 1940s, and S Korea / Taiwan early 1990s from dictatorship.

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2
Those countries came after india and they are also young(er). A better example you could have used was Philippines. Democracy takes time to evolve. Look at USA and uk they are still evolving democratically as we speak, india is still a young democracy. It's like your health what's the point if you are rich if your internal system ain't working. But in a child your systems are still growing. And in the playground when you are young it doesn't count. Because when you become a man it's a whole different ball game.
 
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redragon

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Those countries came after india and they are also young(er). A better example you could have used was Philippines. Democracy takes time to evolve. Look at USA and uk they are still evolving democratically as we speak, india is still a young democracy. It's like your health what's the point if you are rich if your internal system ain't working. But in a child your systems are still growing. And in the playground when you are young it doesn't count. Because when you become a man it's a whole different ball game.
Sometimes I am amazed by your ability to endurance the inequity, low efficiency and paces. If same things happened to Chinese, Tyne chi com gov should have been overthrown many times. Ur political thugs can continue enjoy.
 

Compersion

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We do overthrow them peacefully. It called elections. Also prc citizens and intellectuals did overthrow. A few times they were (violently) successful due to people having the support of the military and inner circle. Other times the people were killed (for the kinder use of the term). Like I said - can you guarantee me you won't have a leader like zhao ziyang again. Do you have one now already. Whats your check and balance. When a nation has a people of masses that do not accept inequity, low efficeny, pace they will ovethrow. Sometimes its the poor leadership of communist states that manages that. How would prc citizens overthrow now. We can use Soviet Union until 1990 as a example and also North Korea right now. Which one is prc resembling more.

In fact even special administered regions can develop a movement. The thought of that inlfeucne in prc is a known unknown like they say. also your fellow citizens according to you are equal, efficient and pace. Our political thugs are thugs (we know that) but at the end of the day the Indian society and people can identify the difference between good and bad. The Indian people will always stand by the good (and are willing to die and go to jail to uphold those beliefs). That's our history you can read it up. The countries that gained democracy after india were in some way influenced by india as we got the ball rolling. Unfortunately that's the sad thing about people in prc. They are afraid to stand up for the good. Your political thugs have managed that. The other thing is everyone thinks the political thugs in prc aren't conscious to being good they have proven that to maintain power. In India we are blessed that our leaders and political thugs when confronted will yield towards the good (and won't kill).

I sense you are a good man. Can you answer me from your constitution and laws what would happen if another zhao ziyang comes. Also do you have faith in the cuurent leadership of prc. Is there anything wrong in your mind with any of your leadership. I refer to all and any of your leaders. Would be great to get a insight into how you think (individually). Many Thanks
 

W.G.Ewald

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No, but Ray did. I wasn't replying your article as much as I was replying Ray's erroneous assumptions.
That's why I tried to re-ravel the unraveled thread :-D
 

no smoking

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In fact even special administered regions can develop a movement. The thought of that inlfeucne in prc is a known unknown like they say. also your fellow citizens according to you are equal, efficient and pace. Our political thugs are thugs (we know that) but at the end of the day the Indian society and people can identify the difference between good and bad.
You already got your democracy for 60 years, how long it will take for you people to learn how to identify the "good" and "bad"?
The beauty part of politicas is that there is no such thing of "good and bad", no matter what you choose, they are always good for a part of your population and bad for another part.


The Indian people will always stand by the good (and are willing to die and go to jail to uphold those beliefs). That's our history you can read it up. The countries that gained democracy after india were in some way influenced by india as we got the ball rolling.
No, you don't.
How many indian died in the fighting against the Mongols?
How many indian died in the fighting against the British?
How many indian died in the fighting for the right of low cast?


Unfortunately that's the sad thing about people in prc. They are afraid to stand up for the good. Your political thugs have managed that. The other thing is everyone thinks the political thugs in prc aren't conscious to being good they have proven that to maintain power. In India we are blessed that our leaders and political thugs when confronted will yield towards the good (and won't kill).
Because Chinese knows the political game! We know you can't have everything in the same time! Whoever promise you everything is a big liar!
So, we decided to get our economic interest first. In order to get that, we are willing to give up our political freedom for the time being. In india, however, your politicians can just make empty promise, walk into the office, take every penny from you people and walk out with all his money. The best part is that he can come back and do it again after couple of years!

I sense you are a good man. Can you answer me from your constitution and laws what would happen if another zhao ziyang comes.
If he comes in 20 years from now, he will be cheered as a hero.
If he comes in now, well, he doesn't have a chance to come in at all!
Just mark my word: there is no good or bad about politician. He just represted the kind of thought in last 80s. That though was proved not fit Chinese population priority in such a period.

Also do you have faith in the cuurent leadership of prc. Is there anything wrong in your mind with any of your leadership. I refer to all and any of your leaders. Would be great to get a insight into how you think (individually). Many Thanks
For me, I don't have faith in any leadership but I have faith in Chinese public. This is the people who has tested every kind of political system on themselves--democratic, republic, dictatorship, etc. They know what they want; they know what these systems can bring them and they also know what these systems will cost. They won't be fooled by any empty word. Anyone who fails them once won't get second chance. In terms of the current leaders, they all climb the ladder from the bottom. I will choose them over Rahul Gandhi any time.
 

Ray

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You already got your democracy for 60 years, how long it will take for you people to learn how to identify the "good" and "bad"?
Good point.

so long as there is teh FREEDOM to chose so, as per our conscience and not by party diktats.
 

Compersion

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For me, I don't have faith in any leadership but I have faith in Chinese public. This is the people who has tested every kind of political system on themselves--democratic, republic, dictatorship, etc. They know what they want; they know what these systems can bring them and they also know what these systems will cost. They won't be fooled by any empty word. Anyone who fails them once won't get second chance. In terms of the current leaders, they all climb the ladder from the bottom. I will choose them over Rahul Gandhi any time.
Thanks for reply also you have said something that's important and a theme that runs through constantly with reference to political evolution in PRC. Also you have replied me one another thread. Its good talking with you wish it continues in a healthy manner and warm greetings to you.

Re. You already got your democracy for 60 years, how long it will take for you people to learn how to identify the "good" and "bad"?
The beauty part of politicas is that there is no such thing of "good and bad", no matter what you choose, they are always good for a part of your population and bad for another part.

Exactly. That is the same as in many other democracies - no matter what you choose, they are always good for a part of your population and bad for another part. During the 60 years India has faced many instances with the identification of good has overcome the bad. For reference I refer to 26 June 1975 as it highlights something important that I would like you to think about (if you don't mind read it and tell me your thoughts).

The Emergency (India) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would like to preface that I provide that link because it shows that in India the people would be willing to go to jail and risk their lives for something they believe in - even after a generation. And why did the leaders in charge not kill them. The leaders could have easily killed but didn't because that is the underlying DNA of the populace at the end of the day the Indian society and people can identify the difference between good and bad.

Also sh*t happens a lot in India. But I can go up to someone and tell them they are wrong. My Indian courts will point out wrong. My Indian media will point out wrong. My fellow citizens will risk their lives for something they believe in which is right. And behind that person who believes in good you will see me and not only me.

The Indian people will always stand by the good (and are willing to die and go to jail to uphold those beliefs). That's our history you can read it up.

Re.
No, you don't.
How many indian died in the fighting against the Mongols?
How many indian died in the fighting against the British?
How many indian died in the fighting for the right of low cast?

A single Indian that died during the independence struggle through non-violence self-determination is worth more compared to whatever point you are trying to make.

Imagine a person that is willing to die and go to jail because they believe in their meaning as well as implication for the better good for themselves and others but will not use violence against the other person to make them understand. Its something you might not understand. But trust me once you go deeper and understand the meaning that's when it hits you.

Ask all the countries after India got the ball rolling why they got independence and made changes through civil rights movements and evolved their own constitutions. I will even put it down here that significant number of countries after 1939 that got independence and upgraded their constitutions through civil rights movements owe it to India (okay it's a bit self-centredness but the influence is there).

Also how many weapons did the Communist forces use during World War II compared to the KMT forces. How many Chinese people died during World War II under KMT compared to Communist forces. Are Communists high caste, low caste, what are they. Is KMT low caste. Do you have a Communist party membership. Why is that. If you don't have one why.

Also I don't mean any harm to you. I would like to refer you to some Hindu texts (like Rig Veda, Ramayian, Gita, etc) even Buddist texts. You will laugh – what a silly caste thing that comes from land of cows and pot holes. But once you go deeper and understand the meaning that's when it hits you. Go out to your book store and read about it. Also get a book on Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi – try this one (The Story of My Experiments with Truth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Tell me what you think. Look at their meaning and reasoning behind what is written. I don't mind reading something you advise and we can compare notes.

Re. Because Chinese knows the political game! We know you can't have everything in the same time! Whoever promise you everything is a big liar!
So, we decided to get our economic interest first. In order to get that, we are willing to give up our political freedom for the time being. In india, however, your politicians can just make empty promise, walk into the office, take every penny from you people and walk out with all his money. The best part is that he can come back and do it again after couple of years!

That's fascinating but my question is what is your economic interest worth right now (no one knows). When will your political freedom (interest) be spoken about. You say 20 years. That's not far away - Are you doing the implementation now. Have you started.

Also I would give hats off to the PRC leaders if they managed to suddenly give you political freedom (in 20 years). This is in the back of my mind as I have read what you said above by your party leaders. It would be impressive if that occurred. The Communist party of PRC would set a new model to the whole world. But what is the political freedom afterwards. What is political freedom according to you.

Re.
If he comes in 20 years from now, he will be cheered as a hero.
If he comes in now, well, he doesn't have a chance to come in at all!
Just mark my word: there is no good or bad about politician. He just represted the kind of thought in last 80s. That though was proved not fit Chinese population priority in such a period.

20 years later why would it be different. Why not 1 month later, 1 years later, 10 years later. Why not now. Why are you using 20 years. Why would he be a hero 20 years later can you elaborate a little. And what hero character does he have.

Re. For me, I don't have faith in any leadership but I have faith in Chinese public. This is the people who has tested every kind of political system on themselves--democratic, republic, dictatorship, etc. They know what they want; they know what these systems can bring them and they also know what these systems will cost. They won't be fooled by any empty word. Anyone who fails them once won't get second chance. In terms of the current leaders, they all climb the ladder from the bottom. I will choose them over Rahul Gandhi any time.

That's fair point. I wont take that away from you as its your thoughts. Also where you say "In terms of the current leaders, they all climb the ladder from the bottom." I agree it's a bit like a private limited company (not a listed company where shareholders have a say). can you guarantee me you won't have a leader like zhao ziyang again. You have had some recent leaders that have come up through the system that were later identified to have abetted in murders through external inspection (at a USA consulate).

Bo Xilai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I only refer to that because I want to understand what your constitution and laws say if a leader comes to power that is not acceptable to you as a citizen. Do you mind to elaborate.
 

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