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Armand2REP

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"We"? :pound:

Use your head mate. From the Bohai Gulf to the Gulf of Tonkin, China's coast line measures almost 15 000km. That's an enormous littoral space, not even including the SCS.

Considering the just as enormous US naval presence on Guam, neighboring Japan and South Korea + China's industrial base and population centers being mostly coastal ... 40 Type 056's aren't nearly enough to assert Chinese military presence.
ouais We...

French EEZ = largest in the world

China EEZ = practically nothing

If you want to build a fleet of cannon fodder more power to you. It is not like the Chinese fleet patrols the world's oceans.
 

J20!

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ouais We...

French EEZ = largest in the world

China EEZ = practically nothing

If you want to build a fleet of cannon fodder more power to you. It is not like the Chinese fleet patrols the world's oceans.
@Adioz and @asianobserve "The most prolific land grabber" indeed.

I'd congratulate the French on their colonial era exploits if it where relevant to this discussion my Indian friend, but alas, it isn't.

The Type 056 is a well balanced, well equipped and well armed warship with specific missions for specific variants. If you have a technical critique to post, "more power to you" sir, go right ahead.

"Cannon fodder" name calling with no substantive arguments and posting pics of another country's EEZ doesn't really add much to this defense forum discussion.
 

Armand2REP

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@Adioz and @asianobserve "The most prolific land grabber" indeed.

I'd congratulate the French on their colonial era exploits if it where relevant to this discussion my Indian friend, but alas, it isn't.

The Type 056 is a well balanced, well equipped and well armed warship with specific missions for specific variants. If you have a technical critique to post, "more power to you" sir, go right ahead.

"Cannon fodder" name calling with no substantive arguments and posting pics of another country's EEZ doesn't really add much to this defense forum discussion.
It is well balanced for a cutter. It has a poor clone of a CIWS with no area defence capability. Even Gowind corvettes have VL MICA.

 

J20!

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It is well balanced for a cutter. It has a poor clone of a CIWS with no area defence capability. Even Gowind corvettes have VL MICA.

VL MICA is a short range air defense missile system mate.

The IN's Kamorta class corvette with twice the Type 056's displacement carries no Anti-air missile at all. The LCS, also twice the displacement of the Type 056 uses the RAM short range air defense missile which is analogous of the HHQ10 and has a similar range of 10 km.

The Type 056 was designed solely to operate in the Chinese littoral under the cover of land based air assets. It has no need for medium range air defense missile. And that HHQ10 "clone" is more than capable of air defense against sea skimming anti-ship missiles:




Target intercepted with HQ-10



Anti-ship, short range anti-air, anti-sub capability all at 1 500 tons. Its a "well balanced", affordable, networked, littoral solution that can spend more than 3-weeks at sea; and frees more capable naval platforms for blue water operations.
 
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Adioz

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@Adioz and @asianobserve "The most prolific land grabber" indeed.

I'd congratulate the French on their colonial era exploits if it where relevant to this discussion my Indian friend, but alas, it isn't.
The IN's Kamorta class corvette with twice the Type 056's displacement carries no Anti-air missile at all.
Two corrections:-
China is not the most prolific land grabber, yet. SCS and BRI is just the beginning. We know where this going.
The Kamorta do not carry any missiles, yet. In the future, when the defence budget is big enough, all its going to take a little refit to fit it with a universal VLS that will be able to fit Barak-8 or Akash Naval SAM and an Indian ASROC (in the works). Even if they don't have enough cash in the future, the least you can expect is a Barak-1 from a decommissioned ship.

I do agree that the Type 054A is better than Kamorta class (until Kamorta gets its VLS in a refit), but Type 056? Nah.
Type 056 is better compared to upcoming NGMV of Indian Navy. Kamorta is ASW focused, like Type 054A. NGMV and Type 056 are more towards anti-surface warfare, although NGMV are not supposed to be simply coastal defence craft. NGMV are more offensive in nature, and hence set to be superior to Type 056.

The only problem is the numbers are not in our favour. And our ships are late in coming. Mainly, money and priorities are a constraint.
 

Armand2REP

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VL MICA is a short range air defense missile system mate.
It is short-medium range as it can engage targets up to 30,000ft in altitude unlike the Sea Ceptor which only goes to 10,000ft.

The IN's Kamorta class corvette with twice the Type 056's displacement carries no Anti-air missile at all. The LCS, also twice the displacement of the Type 056 uses the RAM short range air defense missile which is analogous of the HHQ10 and has a similar range of 10 km.
Kamorta is getting VL Mica at a later date. It is far superior to a HHQ10 Stinger clone, even a Mistral launcher is better. HHQ10 launched from sea level doesn't have a 10km range, it has the same range as the MANPAD of 6km.

The Type 056 was designed solely to operate in the Chinese littoral under the cover of land based air assets. It has no need for medium range air defense missile. And that HHQ10 "clone" is more than capable of air defense against sea skimming anti-ship missiles:
So what is the point of having them if they can't go anywhere, can't protect anything and are best used as target practice? It is only a strategy for cash strapped nations that cannot afford real combat ships.

Anti-ship, short range anti-air, anti-sub capability all at 1 500 tons. Its a "well balanced", affordable, networked, littoral solution that can spend more than 3-weeks at sea; and frees more capable naval platforms for blue water operations.
It isn't short range anti-air, it is very short range. It is a cloned MANPAD crammed into a cloned RIM launcher.

Can you seriously sit here and tell us that this...


isn't a clone of that.
 

J20!

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Two corrections:-
China is not the most prolific land grabber, yet. SCS and BRI is just the beginning. We know where this going.
The Kamorta do not carry any missiles, yet. In the future, when the defence budget is big enough, all its going to take a little refit to fit it with a universal VLS that will be able to fit Barak-8 or Akash Naval SAM and an Indian ASROC (in the works). Even if they don't have enough cash in the future, the least you can expect is a Barak-1 from a decommissioned ship.

I do agree that the Type 054A is better than Kamorta class (until Kamorta gets its VLS in a refit), but Type 056? Nah.
Type 056 is better compared to upcoming NGMV of Indian Navy. Kamorta is ASW focused, like Type 054A. NGMV and Type 056 are more towards anti-surface warfare, although NGMV are not supposed to be simply coastal defence craft. NGMV are more offensive in nature, and hence set to be superior to Type 056.

The only problem is the numbers are not in our favour. And our ships are late in coming. Mainly, money and priorities are a constraint.
As of now... Kamorta corvettes are commissioned with no air defense capability aside from CIWS guns. And that doesn't detract from its other capabilities, ASW chief among them.

@Armand2REP 's argument that if a warship doesn't have medium range SAM's its "cannon fodder" is a dose of his usual nationalistic BS. NAvies around the world operate littoral warships with short range or no air defense missile systems.

Key clarification. I did not say the Type 056 is "better" than Kamorta. How would you even define that? Different missions different ships. But, a key point of clarification, 18 of the 40 commissioned Type 056's are the 056A variant which is an ASW platform with variable depth sonar, towed sonar decoys, ASROC and ship launched torpedoes:


4 ST-16M deck launchers for YJ83 ASM's


The 8 cell HQ-10 launcher for intercepting incoming ASM's or aircraft:



The remote controlled/manned 30mm H/PJ-26


The 18(and counting) ASW variants, the Type 056A's have large stern hatches for deploying variable depth sonar and acoustic decoys, the same apparatus featured on Flight II Type 054A frigates and all Type 052D destroyers:




Triple 324 mm torpedo launch tubes for Yu7C(?) torpedoes with a shrouded propulsor replacing the contra-rotating propellers on the Yu7. This torpedo was first pictured in a large scale SCS Navy exercise in 2015.



The "ASROC missile" Henri K is alluding to in his article is this air breathing, light-weight torpedo carrier missile, first seen in testing in November 2016.



It is launched from the same ST-16M deck-launcher system on Type 054A's and Type 056's that also launches the Yj83J ASM. Whether ASW Type 056A's carry 2 ASW missile/ 2 YJ83J ASM or an all ASW missile load-out in their 4 launchers is an unknown at the moment.


Again, kamorta and the Type 056 are different ships for different missions. The type 056A is focused on littoral missions + Kamorta is twice its size in displacement.
 

J20!

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It is short-medium range as it can engage targets up to 30,000ft in altitude unlike the Sea Ceptor which only goes to 10,000ft.



Kamorta is getting VL Mica at a later date. It is far superior to a HHQ10 Stinger clone, even a Mistral launcher is better. HHQ10 launched from sea level doesn't have a 10km range, it has the same range as the MANPAD of 6km.



So what is the point of having them if they can't go anywhere, can't protect anything and are best used as target practice? It is only a strategy for cash strapped nations that cannot afford real combat ships.



It isn't short range anti-air, it is very short range. It is a cloned MANPAD crammed into a cloned RIM launcher.

Can you seriously sit here and tell us that this...


isn't a clone of that.
The manufacturer Shanghai Academy of Spaceflight Technology (SAST), quotes a 10km max range for the HHQ10. Its a fire and forget missile with LOAL (lock on after launch) and Infra-red image searching guidance to a 10km max range.

Your assertions count for little mate. But, yeah, keep pretending you know what you're talking about.

Yes they are both box launched. Big whoop. The system isn't the launcher my Indian friend. The RAM missile and the HQ10 missile are not the same. The Rolling Air-frame Missile system only offers a 21 launcher system. HHQ10 varies from 8 cells on the Type 056A to 24 on Type 052D's and CV16/17.

One more correction, the HHQ10 and the FL-3000N are not the same. They aren't even manufactured by the same company. They use different missiles, different missile guidance systems and different launchers:




Patrolling a 3 million square kilometer area + the SCS for hostile surface ships and submarines doesn't require or allow for every corvette to be armed with medium range air defense missiles and huge radar arrays. But I guess you know better than the admirals who called for the Type 056 requirement and the naval designers who designed it.
 
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J20!

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There are currently 11 Chinese Navy surface vessels deployed to or transiting through the Indian Ocean. That is, 1 Type 071 LPD. 1 Type 052C destroyer, 2 Type 052D destroyers, 4 Type 054A frigates, 2 Type 903A replenishment ships and 1 Type 908 replenishment ship..

The 27th Anti-Piracy Taskforce: DDG-171, FFG-575, Tanker-885.

The 28th Anti-Piracy Taskforce: FFG 546, FFG 550, Tanker 889

The Amphibious task force: LPD 999 and its escorts DDG-173, FFG-568, Tanker-964 (+possibly DDG 174)




The Amphibious task-force:







This is a photo of DDG 173 with another Type 052D. Some are speculating that it is DDG 174, but without photographic evidence, I'm not sure if this is the same Indian Ocean deployment as the LPD 999 taskforce.


Hand-over ceremony from the 27th to the 28th Anti-Piracy task-force:



 

amoy

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China to form ministry of veterans affairs

China Announces Sweeping Overhaul of Government Institutions


The move aims to protect the legitimate rights and interests of military personnel and their families, improve the service and management system of demobilized military personnel, and make military service an occupation that enjoys public respect.

The new ministry will be in charge of making and implementing policies and regulations related to demobilized military personnel and dealing with related affairs such as their reemployment and training.
 

Armand2REP

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China to form ministry of veterans affairs

China Announces Sweeping Overhaul of Government Institutions


The move aims to protect the legitimate rights and interests of military personnel and their families, improve the service and management system of demobilized military personnel, and make military service an occupation that enjoys public respect.

The new ministry will be in charge of making and implementing policies and regulations related to demobilized military personnel and dealing with related affairs such as their reemployment and training.
Pensions for officers, what about enlisted? If I had served in the PLA I wouldn't be getting jack squat. You still have Korean and Vietnam vets who haven't had their enlistment promises fulfilled from 65 years ago.
 

amoy

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Pensions for officers, what about enlisted? If I had served in the PLA I wouldn't be getting jack squat. You still have Korean and Vietnam vets who haven't had their enlistment promises fulfilled from 65 years ago.
The answer is simple - MONEY - increasing military budget


 

Armand2REP

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The answer is simple - MONEY - increasing military budget


Look at you way up there with all that money and your enlisted veterans don't get a pension. France is way down there with no money and I get a pension. Something is wrong with that picture.
 

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China was Not able to develop its landlocked western part such as tibet ,Sichuan and Yunnan due to lack of sea port on the western side. So they are looking to capture the Chicken Neck of India and make highways through it and deal some treaty with bangladesh to get access through its sea port and develop western china . Proof is attached to it .
 

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Tanmay

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China was Not able to develop its landlocked western part such as tibet ,Sichuan and Yunnan due to lack of sea port on the western side. So they are looking to capture the Chicken Neck of India and make highways through it and deal some treaty with bangladesh to get access through its sea port and develop western china . Proof is attached to it .
Not before a few million chinese get slaughtered in the process. Good luck to Chinese trying to maintain hold over chickens neck
 

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Chinese Military Veterans Converge on Zhenjiang as Protests Swell

People’s Liberation Army veterans from across China break through a police line during a protest in Zhenjiang, eastern China’s Jiangsu province, June 22, 2018.
Video screenshot courtesy of a protester

Authorities in the eastern Chinese province of Jiangsu on Friday struggled to contain growing protests by at least 1,000 People's Liberation Army (PLA) veterans enraged at the beating of a fellow veteran earlier this week.

Hundreds of former armed forces personnel clad in military-style clothing gathered on a major road in Jiangsu's Zhenjiang city, shouting slogans and waving national flags, in the first major public show of strength since a mass protest in Beijing in October 2016.

Arranged in neat rows, in blocks according to region of China, and carrying ruling Chinese Communist Party flags and banners identifying their time and place of service, the veterans waited as organizers patrolled the protest, issuing instructions through megaphones.

Twitter user Yijian Piaochen, who is described as a writer and poet, posted video from the scene, drawing a parallel with 1989 student-led protests on Tiananmen Square in Beijing.

"These veterans are exceptionally well-organized, even more so than they were in 1989," the user commented.

Online videos had earlier showed protesters working together to pull down street barriers placed in their way, and surging past riot police to join fellow protesters on Nanmen Square.

Reports posted to Twitter said that "hundreds" of veterans were converging on Zhenjiang from elsewhere in China on Friday in a show of solidarity, and that local taxi drivers were ferrying them around the city free of charge.

Citizen journalist Cai Chu tweeted that security guards had beaten up PLA veteran Wang Yihong and his companions near the Zhenjiang municipal government on Tuesday, sparking "outrage and solidarity" among former PLA personnel across China.

Another Twitter user called for local residents to donate blankets for veterans encamped to the west of the new government building, "desperately needed to avoid the cold tonight."

Protesters at the scene told RFA that veterans had arrived in Zhenjiang from Shandong, Hebei, Henan, and Sichuan provinces during the past four days.

Provincial leaders have also been dispatched to the main protests, which center on Nanmen Square, outside the southern gate of the government compound.

Veterans beaten up

"The veterans went to lodge a petition, and were beaten up," a veteran surnamed Wang, who is currently under house arrest at his home in Shandong, told RFA on Friday. "After the beatings, the whole country rose up in solidarity."

"There were about 400 people there for the first four days, but there were more than 1,000 there yesterday evening, and they are still arriving," he said. "They stopped them from leaving at a train station in Anhui; they refuse to sell them tickets, so the whole lot spent the night in the waiting room; more than 400 of them."

"I wanted to go too, but they got in touch with my [grown] child, telling me not to go," said Wang, who is now under surveillance.

A fellow veteran surnamed Chen said the local authorities have tried to enforce an information blackout of the protests.

"This incident is being very strictly censored," Chen said. "We have found some things on [social media] but the video clips won't play."

"They are afraid people will come together ... so all they can do is try to maintain stability or cover it up."

An official who answered the phone at the Zhenjiang municipal government on Friday acknowledged that there had been protests by veterans.

"Are they out there? I think so; I don't think they have left yet," the official said. "But I can't give you an official response; I'm just the duty officer, and I don't know what's going on outside."

"You reporters need to speak to the propaganda department," he said.

But an official who answered the phone at the Zhenjiang municipal party committee propaganda office on Friday hung up as soon as they were contacted by RFA.

Police and "stability maintenance" personnel have been dispatched from elsewhere in China to try to contain the protests, a veteran who asked to remain anonymous told RFA on Wednesday.

"It's not a run-of-the-mill event, the suppression of PLA veterans," the veteran said. "And this has happened a number of times now ... even veterans of the [World War II] war of resistance against Japan have been detained and rebuked."

"Of course they are going to take this road if they are unable to defend their rights and interests," he said.

Fighting for benefits

In October 2016, thousands of demobilized PLA personnel converged on Beijing from across China, staging a vocal protest outside the headquarters of the Communist Party's Central Military Commission (CMC), which is chaired by President Xi Jinping.

Singing "In Unity is Our Strength" and other Chinese military choruses, the veterans, some of whom had fought in the Korean War (1950-1953), wore their old uniforms and stood peacefully, calling for pensions, healthcare and other demobilization benefits they said were promised but not delivered.

Any bid to organize has since triggered nationwide security alerts via the "stability maintenance" system, which targets peaceful protesters, petitioners, and critics of the government.

The veterans are calling on the authorities to abide by promises made to them before they signed up to fight in China's short border war with Vietnam in 1979.

Clause 3 of the Military Pensions Priority Regulations requires governments to ensure that the standard of living and social situation of demobilized PLA soldiers doesn't fall below the national average.

Other veterans are citing official document No. 75 issued by China's cabinet, the State Council, in 1978 promising to find jobs for demobilized military personnel.




https://www.rfa.org/english/news/ch...ans-converge-on-zhenjiang-06222018111306.html
 

Trinetra

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Guys.. Please read This.. 2015 Incident But interesting..

People’s Liberation Army – Calling the Bluff

August 12, 2017 Harpreet






So I came across THIS 2015 news report, some days ago. A piece that I found V.E.R.Y interesting. The headline is catchy enough – ‘UN peacekeepers refused to help as aid workers were raped in South Sudan’. But it is the second part of the headline that caught my eye – Chinese troops abandoned their posts rather than engage in fighting and protect civilians.

Interesting, I thought. Did a little more digging around on the www and came across another nugget of V.E.R.Y interesting information. Will come to that in the latter part of this blog post. But first let me share some thoughts on the piece above.

Firstly let us talk about the facts listed out in the news report above:-

  • The Chinese peacekeepers were entrusted with the responsibility of a one civilian protection site in Juba.
  • In the month of July 2015, fierce attacks were mounted by one of the rebel groups in Sudan, leading to ‘tens of thousands’ of civilians seeking safety from successive bouts of fighting, at that site.
  • However, the Chinese peacekeepers stayed on in their bases rather than protect civilians. Heck, even the Ethiopian troops had done far better, helping evacuate wounded civilians and returning fire when needed.
  • On the last day of the fighting, about 80 to 100 government soldiers attacked a compound in Juba where they raped and gang-raped at least five international aid workers and physically or sexually assaulted at least a dozen others.
  • All this happened when there was a UN Base manned by Chinese peacekeepers only a few hundred metres from the compound. However despite dozens of appeals for help from the besieged aid workers and personal visits from at least one who escaped from the compound, the Chinese peacekeepers simply REFUSED to leave the safety of their base.
  • During four days of fighting between the rival forces, artillery rounds and gunfire hit two UN bases, killing two Chinese peacekeepers. And what did the vaunted PLA troopers do? They not only failed to return fire, but in fact, RAN AWAY FROM THEIR POST. To add insult to injury, in their haste to save their skins, they even left behind their weapons and ammo – something a professional soldier would not even dream of doing. EVER.
So here is what I make of the entire issue – The PLA soldier didn’t move out of the safety of his compound, favouring his personal safety over his responsibility to his fellow human beings. To some extent (and I say this ‘coz I am not entirely aware of the rules of engagement they were bound by), this might be explained by the rules of engagement that MIGHT have prevented them from interfering in the factional fighting in the area. MIGHT have, ‘coz I am not sure it actually prevented them. More on that in the latter part of this blog. However, even the refusal to fire back in self defence, more so when two of their comrades had been fatally wounded, reeks of cowardice. And then the biggest ignominy a professional soldier can heap upon himself – they fcuking abandoned their posts and ran away. Not only that, they left behind their weapons and ammo.

An entire post cowering behind the apparent safety of their compound walls instead of discharging their duty when humanity is being raped and murdered all around. When the compound too becomes unsafe, they emulate their Pakistani friends’ favourite battlefield tactic – they run away! And this is the bunch of (fill in the blank) with which the PRC threatens the battle hardened Indian Army today!

Now coming to another interesting nugget I discovered when searching for more info on this incident. I came across THIS report. It was the Indian Army that saved their sorry backsides. The report itself doesn’t mention the abandonment of posts by the PLA peacekeepers. Very ‘convenient’ omission, I say.

However, as per the report, INDBATT II, comprising of the men of 7th Battalion The Kumaon Regiment, who were held in reserve, were asked to take charge and restore the situation, which they did with extreme professionalism and ruthlessness. Here’s a typically modest way the news report chose to describe their actions – ‘It was learnt that troops also secured the perimeter which was smashed by the IDPs and ensured the armed militiamen were weeded out.’ Yes, they ‘secured’ the perimeter and ensured the armed militiamen were ‘weeded out’. Typical Indian media’s way of underselling themselves. Or perhaps, something that they are so used to from the Indian Army, that they take it as a matter of fait accompli – Send in Indian troops, job will be done.

Btw, it was the same militiamen who had scared the hell out of the famed PLA troops and routed them that the Kumaonis calmly ‘weeded out’. Rest of the report makes for an interesting read too.

So here it is. An Army that fought its last war in 1979, an army that has ‘won’ against an outsider only once in 5000 years of its nation’s history, in 1962, was exposed for what it was – shiny toys and scared brats afraid to wield them when time comes. (Regarding the ‘war experience’ of the PLA, that is a blog post which will come in another few weeks, btw)

Sabre rattling in front of apparently weaker neighbours is fine, but god save you if the ‘weaker’ neighbour draws out his own sword!

(Oh, btw, the title of the photograph of PLA Peacekeepers posted on top of this blog, in The Guardian report is – ‘Peacekeeping troops in South Sudan ‘underperformed’ during violence in July.’)

’nuff said!

ADDED LATER: 1 Executive Summary of the Independent Special Investigation into the violence which occurred in Juba in 2016 and UNMISS response (A very diplomatically worded report, with some tight slaps to those concerned)

(Next blog: Story of the two PLA soldiers in South Sudan and who killed them.)
 

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