China marks massacre amid strained Japan ties

[Ray]

Pakistan terrorists do operate.

Heard of Kasab?

Pakistan had no options but to own up with the evidence provided, not only by India, but by the world to include the US and Saudi Arabia!

 

[s002wjh]

Nanking Massacre denial is a viewpoint, which disputes the fact that Imperial Japanese forces murdered hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers and civilians during the Second Sino-Japanese War, and is a highly controversial episode in Sino-Japanese relations. Despite the popularity of denialism in Japan, it is considered as a revisionist viewpoint and is not accepted in mainstream academia, even within Japanese academia Most historians accept the findings of the Tokyo tribunal with respect to the scope and nature of the atrocities committed by the Imperial Japanese Army after the Battle of Nanking. In Japan, however, there has been a heated debate over the extent and nature of the massacre. Because denial of the massacre is seen as part of an overall unwillingness on Japan's part to admit and apologize for its aggression, debate over the massacre, or a perceived insensitivity regarding the killings, complicates relations between Japan and China.[1] Estimates of the death toll vary widely. Many scholars have accepted the figure of 300,000 dead as an approximate total, and this figure has become emblematic of the tragedy in China. Estimates of the dead vary, however, notably among revisionist scholars and activists in Japan, who have contended at times that the actual death toll is far lower, or even that the event was entirely fabricated and never occurred at all.[2][3] These revisionist accounts of the killings have become a staple of Japanese nationalist discourse.[4]

In Japan, public opinion of the massacres varies, and only a minority deny the atrocity outright.[4] Some Japanese journalists and social scientists, such as Tomio Hora and Katsuichi Honda, have played prominent roles in countering revisionist historiography, in the decades since the killings. Nonetheless, negationist accounts, such as those of Shūdō Higashinakano, have often created controversy that has reverberated in the global media, particularly in China and other East Asian nations.[4][5] The 1937 massacre and the extent of its coverage in Japanese school textbooks also troubles Sino-Japanese relations.

i guess only few japanese deny nanking masscarcre. so how come an indian belief this never happen is beyond me. do you have so much hatred toward chinese that any positive or tragic event happen in china/chinese, and you consider is false. this board is about facts not bias, well least i hope this is true

 

[s002wjh]

Nanking Massacre denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ray]

like i said there is plenty evidence support this. if you don't trust chinese source, then look at korean, phillippine, taiwaness, russia, american history record on these. there IS ABSOLUTELY no evidence that nanking massacre never happen. even nazi has evidence shows atrocity done by japanese in wwii

Just go through the Fake of Nanking series on Youtube and refute the statistics.

How long was the massacre and how many died?

Divide it and see whether it is feasible.

The photographs were faked.

Nanking happened, but was exaggerated for wartime propaganda.

And it stuck because it suited the environment after the War!

Killing of human being is a tragedy, even if it one.

War is a horrible tragedy and all are guilty!

Take the issue of Serbians solely being blamed for genocide.

The other side was pure as the driven snow? They did not carry out large scale massacres?

Who control the ICJ?

And why only the Serbians were blamed.

It served the purpose. The Serbians were pro Russia!

Everything reported is not the truth. It is realpolitik.

China was the Bamboo Curtain and we read so many stories of brutality within China in the Readers Digest.

How come these stories have vanished all of a sudden when China opened up her markets.

Politics!

Do not be blind. Understand the nuances of geostrategy and geopolitics.

 

[blank_quest]

Like wise Should India remember Killings of "Hindus" in "Hindu Kush" during the period of onslaught of Barbarism?.India has lost more than any civilization in the world combined(may be like Red Indians ). Should we take the leaf out of books and be paranoid like Chinese??

 

[s002wjh]

Just go through the Fake of Nanking series on Youtube and refute the statistics.

How long was the massacre and how many died?

Divide it and see whether it is feasible.

The photographs were faked.

Nanking happened, but was exaggerated for wartime propaganda.

And it stuck because it suited the environment after the War!

The International Military Tribunal of the Far East estimates more than 200,000 casualties in the incident;[6] China's official estimate is about 300,000 casualties, based on the evaluation of the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal. Estimates from Japanese historians vary widely, in the vicinity of 40,000–200,000. Some historical revisionists even deny that a widespread, systematic massacre occurred at all, claiming that any deaths were either justified militarily, accidental or isolated incidents of unauthorized atrocities. These revisionists claim that the characterization of the incident as a large-scale, systematic massacre was fabricated for the purpose of political propaganda Although the Japanese government has admitted to the acts of killing of a large number of noncombatants, looting and other violence committed by the Imperial Japanese Army after the fall of Nanking,[9][10] a small but vocal minority within both the Japanese government and society have argued that the death toll was military in nature and that no such crimes ever occurred

so you are saying that "International Military Tribunal for the Far East" was wrong that a small portion of ultra nationlist japanese was right

International Military Tribunal for the Far East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[s002wjh]

Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contest to kill 100 people using a sword - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ray]

so you are saying that "International Military Tribunal for the Far East" was wrong that a small portion of ultra nationlist japanese was right

International Military Tribunal for the Far East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read my post on Serbians alone being hauled up to the ICJ Hague for 'genocide'?

Heard of any of the opposing side being hauled up to the ICJ?

The other side did not commit genocide and was pure as driven snow?

Geopolitics.

Heard of the Treaty of Versailles?

That was fair?

Yes, it was taken to be fair then, but with the passage of time, the reality has dawned and it is stated that it was most unfair and crippling.

What makes you feel that International Military Tribunal for the Far East" was perfect and beyond carrying out a political statement?

 

[s002wjh]

The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated that 20,000 women were raped, including infants and the elderly.[40] A large portion of these rapes were systematized in a process where soldiers would search door-to-door for young girls, with many women taken captive and gang raped.[41] The women were often killed immediately after being raped, often through explicit mutilation[42] or by stabbing a bayonet, long stick of bamboo, or other objects into the vagina. Young children were not exempt from these atrocities, and were cut open to allow Japanese soldiers to rape them.[43]

On 19 December 1937, Reverend James M. McCallum wrote in his diary:

I know not where to end. Never I have heard or read such brutality. Rape! Rape! Rape! We estimate at least 1,000 cases a night, and many by day. In case of resistance or anything that seems like disapproval, there is a bayonet stab or a bullet ... People are hysterical ... Women are being carried off every morning, afternoon and evening. The whole Japanese army seems to be free to go and come as it pleases, and to do whatever it pleases.[44]

On March 7, 1938, Robert O. Wilson, a surgeon at the American-administered University Hospital in the Safety Zone, wrote in a letter to his family, "a conservative estimate of people slaughtered in cold blood is somewhere about 100,000, including of course thousands of soldiers that had thrown down their arms".[45]

Here are two excerpts from his letters of 15 and 18 December 1937 to his family:

The slaughter of civilians is appalling. I could go on for pages telling of cases of rape and brutality almost beyond belief. Two bayoneted corpses are the only survivors of seven street cleaners who were sitting in their headquarters when Japanese soldiers came in without warning or reason and killed five of their number and wounded the two that found their way to the hospital.

Let me recount some instances occurring in the last two days. Last night the house of one of the Chinese staff members of the university was broken into and two of the women, his relatives, were raped. Two girls, about 16, were raped to death in one of the refugee camps. In the University Middle School where there are 8,000 people the Japs came in ten times last night, over the wall, stole food, clothing, and raped until they were satisfied. They bayoneted one little boy of eight who have [sic] five bayonet wounds including one that penetrated his stomach, a portion of omentum was outside the abdomen. I think he will live.[46]

In his diary kept during the aggression against the city and its occupation by the Imperial Japanese Army, the leader of the Safety Zone, John Rabe, wrote many comments about Japanese atrocities. For 17 December:

Two Japanese soldiers have climbed over the garden wall and are about to break into our house. When I appear they give the excuse that they saw two Chinese soldiers climb over the wall. When I show them my party badge, they return the same way. In one of the houses in the narrow street behind my garden wall, a woman was raped, and then wounded in the neck with a bayonet. I managed to get an ambulance so we can take her to Kulou Hospital ... Last night up to 1,000 women and girls are said to have been raped, about 100 girls at Ginling College Girls alone. You hear nothing but rape. If husbands or brothers intervene, they're shot. What you hear and see on all sides is the brutality and bestiality of the Japanese soldiers.[47]

There are also accounts of Japanese troops forcing families to commit acts of incest.[48] Sons were forced to rape their mothers, fathers were forced to rape daughters. One pregnant woman who was gang-raped by Japanese soldiers gave birth only a few hours later; although the baby appeared to be physically unharmed (Robert B. Edgerton, Warriors of the Rising Sun). Monks who had declared a life of celibacy were also forced to rape women.

Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ray]

You still have not seen the series of Fake of Nanking Massacres.

See it an refute the statistics.

The Chinese are famed at working statistics that are hoax.

Refute all the statements made in those Japanese videos.

Do you know why the Japanese are able to talk now after so many years?

Because they have become close friends of the West and are being allowed to speak the truth as they see it.

Geopolitics for you, once again!

 

[s002wjh]

Read my post on Serbians alone being hauled up to the ICJ Hague for 'genocide'?

Heard of any of the opposing side being hauled up to the ICJ?

The other side did not commit genocide and was pure as driven snow?

Geopolitics.

Heard of the Treaty of Versailles?

That was fair?

Yes, it was taken to be fair then, but with the passage of time, the reality has dawned and it is stated that it was most unfair and crippling.

What makes you feel that International Military Tribunal for the Far East" was perfect and beyond carrying out a political statement?

you know i'm gonna stop argue with someone live in denial. obviously you have some morality issue, maybe you should join those ultra national japanese who insist these event never occur, even though the entire world disaggree

 

[s002wjh]

You still have not seen the series of Fake of Nanking Massacres.

See it an refute the statistics.

The Chinese are famed at working statistics that are hoax.

Refute all the statements made in those Japanese videos.

you still believe these thing never occur even when facing overwhelming evidence. just do a google search, there are tons study, historian, records from all over the place. goto national archieve in DC, there is extensive record on this too. My friend read it when he was there for a project of his.

 

[Singh]

The Nanking 'Massacre' has been refuted by the Japanese.

It was exaggerated because all powers were against Japan then and so it made good propaganda.

I have been to Nanjing and the mausoleum. Its one propaganda machine.

BTW Chinese would've done as bad if not worse to the Japanese.

 

[s002wjh]

Following the capture of Nanking, a massacre was perpetrated by the Japanese army, which led to the deaths, estimated by several, of over 250,000 residents in the city, a figure difficult to calculate precisely due to the many bodies deliberately burnt, buried in mass graves, or deposited in the Yangtze River by the IJA.[49][50][51] Japanese ultra-nationalists have strongly disputed such death tolls, with some stating that only several hundred civilians were killed during the massacre.[52] B. Campbell, in an article published in the journal Sociological Theory, has described the Nanking Massacre as a genocide considering the fact that the residents were still unilaterally killed in masses during the aftermath, despite the successful and certain outcome in battle.[53] On 13 December 1937, John Rabe wrote in his diary:

It is not until we tour the city that we learn the extent of destruction. We come across corpses every 100 to 200 yards. The bodies of civilians that I examined had bullet holes in their backs. These people had presumably been fleeing and were shot from behind. The Japanese march through the city in groups of ten to twenty soldiers and loot the shops (...) I watched with my own eyes as they looted the café of our German baker Herr Kiessling. Hempel's hotel was broken into as well, as almost every shop on Chung Shang and Taiping Road.[54]

On 10 February 1938, Legation Secretary of the German Embassy, Rosen, wrote to his Foreign Ministry about a film made in December by Reverend John Magee to recommend its purchase. Here is an excerpt from his letter and a description of some of its shots, kept in the Political Archives of the Foreign Ministry in Berlin.

During the Japanese reign of terror in Nanking – which, by the way, continues to this day to a considerable degree – the Reverend John Magee, a member of the American Episcopal Church Mission who has been here for almost a quarter of a century, took motion pictures that eloquently bear witness to the atrocities committed by the Japanese .... One will have to wait and see whether the highest officers in the Japanese army succeed, as they have indicated, in stopping the activities of their troops, which continue even today.[55]

On December 13, about 30 soldiers came to a Chinese house at #5 Hsing Lu Koo in the southeastern part of Nanking, and demanded entrance. The door was open by the landlord, a Mohammedan named Ha. They killed him immediately with a revolver and also Mrs. Ha, who knelt before them after Ha's death, begging them not to kill anyone else. Mrs. Ha asked them why they killed her husband and they shot her. Mrs. Hsia was dragged out from under a table in the guest hall where she had tried to hide with her 1 year old baby. After being stripped and raped by one or more men, she was bayoneted in the chest, and then had a bottle thrust into her vagina. The baby was killed with a bayonet. Some soldiers then went to the next room, where Mrs. Hsia's parents, aged 76 and 74, and her two daughters aged 16 and 14. They were about to rape the girls when the grandmother tried to protect them. The soldiers killed her with a revolver. The grandfather grasped the body of his wife and was killed. The two girls were then stripped, the elder being raped by 2–3 men, and the younger by 3. The older girl was stabbed afterwards and a cane was rammed in her vagina. The younger girl was bayoneted also but was spared the horrible treatment that had been meted out to her sister and mother. The soldiers then bayoneted another sister of between 7–8, who was also in the room. The last murders in the house were of Ha's two children, aged 4 and 2 respectively. The older was bayoneted and the younger split down through the head with a sword.[56]

Pregnant women were a target of murder, as they would often be bayoneted in the stomach, sometimes after rape. Tang Junshan, survivor and witness to one of the Japanese army's systematic mass killings, testified:

The seventh and last person in the first row was a pregnant woman. The soldier thought he might as well rape her before killing her, so he pulled her out of the group to a spot about ten meters away. As he was trying to rape her, the woman resisted fiercely ... The soldier abruptly stabbed her in the belly with a bayonet. She gave a final scream as her intestines spilled out. Then the soldier stabbed the fetus, with its umbilical cord clearly visible, and tossed it aside.[57]

According to Navy veteran Sho Mitani, 'The Army used a trumpet sound that meant "Kill all Chinese who run away"'.[58] Thousands were led away and mass-executed in an excavation known as the "Ten-Thousand-Corpse Ditch", a trench measuring about 300m long and 5m wide. Since records were not kept, estimates regarding the number of victims buried in the ditch range from 4,000 to 20,000. However, most scholars and historians consider the number to be more than 12,000 victims.[59]

Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i;m guessing you gonna say all these diary, letter, eye-witness event are fabricated as well by different westerner. and the international tribunal of far east basically sending innocent japanese solider to death/prison, and its all lies lol

 

[Impluseblade]

But the history tells you that we never did any harm to the Japanese people.

I have been to Nanjing and the mausoleum. Its one propaganda machine.

BTW Chinese would've done as bad if not worse to the Japanese.

 

[s002wjh]

I have been to Nanjing and the mausoleum. Its one propaganda machine.

BTW Chinese would've done as bad if not worse to the Japanese.

so i guess the memorial at peral harbor or NYC where 911 happen is also a propaganda machine !!! or any memorial that india establish before is propaganda

 

[Singh]

@Impluseblade

That is no excuse to keep harping about it. And you guys would've done as bad if not worse to the Japanese if you were in their place.

@s002wjh

Memorial and all is fine. But the kind of propaganda both audio and visual that is peddled there made one distinctly uncomfortable

And funny thing there were a few people who were crying their eye sockets out, and some Chinese were giggling at them.

And Japanese aren't allowed to visit.

 

[Ray]

you still believe these thing never occur even when facing overwhelming evidence. just do a google search, there are tons study, historian, records from all over the place. goto national archieve in DC, there is extensive record on this too. My friend read it when he was there for a project of his.

Instead of trotting out western views at regular intervals, please be good enough to refute the Japanese videos including the series of Fake of Naking.

That will prove that the Japanese are wrong.

Don't blather about western views as the Gospel.

We are all aware how 'truth' is manufactured.

I have shown you the credibility of the ICJ.

I have have shown you how unfair the Treaty of Versailles was to the Germans and which allowed Hitler to rouse the Germans to have the second WWII.

TREATY OF VERSAILLES

Viewing Germany as the chief instigator of the conflict, the European Allied Powers decided to impose particularly stringent treaty obligations upon the defeated Germany. The Treaty of Versailles, presented for German leaders to sign on May 7, 1919, forced Germany to concede territories to Belgium (Eupen-Malmédy), Czechoslovakia (the Hultschin district), and Poland (Poznan [German: Posen], West Prussia and Upper Silesia). The Germans returned Alsace and Lorraine, annexed in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War, to France. All German overseas colonies became League of Nation Mandates, and the city of Danzig (today: Gdansk), with its large ethnically German population, became a Free City. The treaty demanded demilitarization and occupation of the Rhineland, and special status for the Saarland under French control. Plebiscites were to determine the future of areas in northern Schleswig on the Danish-German frontier and parts of Upper Silesia on the border with Poland.
Perhaps the most humiliating portion of the treaty for defeated Germany was Article 231, commonly known as the "War Guilt Clause," which forced the German nation to accept complete responsibility for initiating World War I. As such Germany was liable for all material damages, and France's premier Georges Clemenceau particularly insisted on imposing enormous reparation payments. Aware that Germany would probably not be able to pay such a towering debt, Clemenceau and the French nevertheless greatly feared rapid German recovery and the initiation of a new war against France. Hence, the French sought in the postwar treaty to limit Germany's potential to regain its economic superiority and to rearm. The German army was to be limited to 100,000 men, and conscription proscribed; the treaty restricted the Navy to vessels under 100,000 tons, with a ban on the acquisition or maintenance of a submarine fleet.
Moreover, Germany was forbidden to maintain an air force. Finally, Germany was required to conduct war crimes proceedings against the Kaiser and other leaders for waging aggressive war. The subsequent Leipzig Trials, without the Kaiser or other significant national leaders in the dock, resulted largely in acquittals and were widely perceived as a sham, even in Germany.
The newly formed German democratic government saw the Versailles Treaty as a "dictated peace" (Diktat). Although France, which had suffered more materially than the other parties in the "Big Four," had insisted upon harsh terms, the peace treaty did not ultimately help to settle the international disputes which had initiated World War I. On the contrary, it tended to hinder inter-European cooperation and make more fractious the underlying issues which had caused the war in the first place. The dreadful sacrifices of war and tremendous loss of life, suffered on all sides, weighed heavily not only upon the losers of the conflict, but also upon those combatants on the winning side, like Italy, whose postwar spoils seemed incommensurate with the terrible price each nation had paid in blood and material goods.
For the populations of the defeated powers—Germany, Austria, Hungary, and Bulgaria—the respective peace treaties appeared an unfair punishment, and their governments, whether democratic as in Germany or Austria, or authoritarian, in the case of Hungary and Bulgaria, quickly resorted to violating the military and financial terms of the accords. Efforts to revise and defy the more burdensome provisions of the peace became a key element in their respective foreign policies and proved a destabilizing factor in international politics.
The war guilt clause, its incumbent reparation payments, and the limitations on the German military were particularly onerous in the minds of most Germans, and revision of the Versailles Treaty represented one of the platforms that gave radical right wing parties in Germany, including Hitler's Nazi Party, such credibility to mainstream voters in the 1920s and early 1930s. Promises to rearm, to reclaim German territory, particularly in the East, to remilitarize the Rhineland, and to regain prominence again among the European and world powers after such a humiliating defeat and peace, stoked ultranationalist sentiment and helped average voters to overlook the more radical tenets of Nazi ideology.
The burdensome reparations, coupled with a general inflationary period in Europe in the 1920s, caused spiraling hyperinflation of the German Reichsmark by 1923. This hyperinflationary period combined with the effects of the Great Depression (beginning in 1929) seriously to undermine the stability of the German economy, wiping out the personal savings of the middle class and spurring massive unemployment. Such economic chaos did much to increase social unrest, destabilizing the fragile Weimar Republic.
Finally, the efforts of the Western European powers to marginalize Germany through the Versailles Treaty undermined and isolated German democratic leaders. Particularly deleterious in connection with the harsh provisions of Versailles was the rampant conviction among many in the general population that Germany had been "stabbed in the back" by the "November criminals"—those who had helped to form the new Weimar government and broker the peace which Germans had so desperately wanted, but which ended so disastrously in Versailles. Many Germans forgot that they had applauded the fall of the Kaiser, had initially welcomed parliamentary democratic reform, and had rejoiced at the armistice. They recalled only that the German Left—Socialists, Communists and Jews, in common imagination—had surrendered German honor to an ignominious peace when no foreign armies had even set foot on German soil.
This Dolchstosslegende (stab-in-the-back legend) helped further to discredit German socialist and liberal circles who felt most committed to maintain Germany's fragile democratic experiment. The difficulties imposed by social and economic unrest in the wake of World War I and its onerous peace terms worked in tandem to undermine pluralistic democratic solutions in Weimar Germany and to increase public longing for more authoritarian direction, a kind of leadership which German voters ultimately and unfortunately found in Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist Party.

.Treaty of Versailles, 1919

 

[Dovah]

Should we take the leaf out of books and be paranoid like Chinese??

Actually, yes.

 

[Ray]

You all are so engrossed with your own propaganda that you are not willing to look at new facts.

If the facts are wrong, prove them so.

Don't revisit wartime history since all wartime and immediate post wartime history is heavily in favour of the victor.

And the Chinese were the appendage of the victors!

And the Chinese are masters at fabricating history.

The dots and dashes are the credible proof that all the seas are China's!