China-India ties poised for an 'orbital jump,' says Doval

[ghost]

Similar thing happend in 71 war.

The regional situation was already complex, the two super powers, Soviet Union and USA were supporting India and Pakistan respectively. India signed a treaty of mutual assistance with the Soviet Union in August, 1971. This treaty ensured that in need Soviet Union would help India and stop United State's intervention, and deter China from opening a second conflict on India's northern border.- China was friendly to Pakistan and fought a war with India in 1962. Pakistan was the broker between United States and People's Republic of China at that time, so was important for both.


Source :- US Fleet in Bay of Bengal: A game of deception


You can expect similar happening if in future theres a enevitable threat to india of war on two fronts.

Sir, you are stating what we should expect in future because of what has happened in past.But you forget between past and future we have present,which has the ability to change the future.

At present China enjoy a unprecedented status in the world ,with passage of time it would only increase.China has a major economic inter dependency of economics with United states,plus its friendship and cooperation with Russia is increasing with each passing day.So you can't be sure how these two countries would behave with China in future.

You can say that there is no chance of war with China in future.Maybe or maybe not ,what I believe is that when it comes to China nothing can be predicted.What I am interested to know is that how would China react to the cry for help,from there "best friend" with whom they have friendship deeper than ocean ,higher than mountain etc etc.China can easily open a front in Arunachal pradesh, as it would know very well that they can control the extent of war with India.As India has a nature of being defensive.Plus what we can expect from America and Russia would be anything from full support to only condemning actions of China or just passing some sanctions against it.

What I am most interested in,is how would China react to the cry of help from its brother Pakistan.And as you can see with raising of 2 battalions of special forces which are China centric,raising of mountain strike corpse against China,and regular exercise of army and airforce for two front wars ,our government is skeptical of China.

 

[mikhail]

Yes I know you would love. But the point is whether Indian army will like it or not . Having spent at least 6 times more than Pakistani Army they are yet to be prepared even for a limited war with Pakistan and you want them to take on China ? . Before every crisis came around the standard vouch and boasting of Indian Army sounded like " we are ready for every eventuality and will give a befitting reply to our enemy " and when the actual situation came the Army version slightly changed and sounded some what like " We are in severe shortage of vital equipment and ammunition, we are not ready for war " Lets ruminate and gloat on 1971 and have a tight sleep.
A highly corrupted organisation of a corrupted nation. Even Vietnam has the necessary guts to stand up against China but we Indians are real pussy.

Personally i would love to meet a guy like your status.Your profile say that you're currently in Kolkata.Then let's just meet one day and perhaps i will be able to make you change your opinion about the Indian Armed Forces.Well what do you say,do you have it in you to meet me personally at Gariahat perhaps!!

 

[mikhail]

Pathetic language.. You can not use foul language against any one. Generally people with poor mental state tend to do so when they find it is difficult to convince others. Hope you are not one of them. Try to be fair when in a discussion and pay respect to the members, otherwise stay away from posting/ranting.

Just leave him mate.He is probably one of those nutjob naxal jholawalas of Jadavpur University.We have plenty of wackos like him here in Kolkata.These people are the sole reason why the rest of the Indians nowadays think that the general Bengali populace are a bunch of faint hearted cowards who will do anything to escape joining the Armed Forces.Actually i feel sorry for these nutjobs because they don't realize that they are in a sense disrespecting the countless Bengali Freedom fighters who made the supreme sacrifice for our Motherland.These guys are nothing but vermin,if i had my way i would have eradicated parasites like him a long time ago from this country

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Sir, you are stating what we should expect in future because of what has happened in past.But you forget between past and future we have present,which has the ability to change the future.

At present China enjoy a unprecedented status in the world ,with passage of time it would only increase.China has a major economic inter dependency of economics with United states,plus its friendship and cooperation with Russia is increasing with each passing day.So you can't be sure how these two countries would behave with China in future.

You can say that there is no chance of war with China in future.Maybe or maybe not ,what I believe is that when it comes to China nothing can be predicted.What I am interested to know is that how would China react to the cry for help,from there "best friend" with whom they have friendship deeper than ocean ,higher than mountain etc etc.China can easily open a front in Arunachal pradesh, as it would know very well that they can control the extent of war with India.As India has a nature of being defensive.Plus what we can expect from America and Russia would be anything from full support to only condemning actions of China or just passing some sanctions against it.

What I am most interested in,is how would China react to the cry of help from its brother Pakistan.And as you can see with raising of 2 battalions of special forces which are China centric,raising of mountain strike corpse against China,and regular exercise of army and airforce for two front wars ,our government is skeptical of China.

China is using Pakistan as a strategic tool, much like the US did in Cold War. They will drop them as soon as their need is over.
If you are trying to say China will fight a war with India just for the sake of Pakistan, It will never happen.
The most China can do in such a situation is give them weapons and aid , nothing else.

If you think China considers India as its main enemy, you are incorrect. Its Japan.

China's position in World largely depends on the status of world economy. It collapses , China collapses.

In the end, Chinese are not stupid like Pakistan to declare war on India. We are weaker than them, not weak. India has enough to protect its territory,
So if another Indo-China War will be fruitless, with no winners , just losers. It will end in ceasefire agreement, And will get both our economies destroyed.
As time passes, India will close the gap with China, which will also act as a deterrence.

 

[t_co]

Sir,

How would China react in case of Indo-PAK war.If Pakistan ask for your help militarily ,facing danger of being overrun by Indian forces.And by militarily I mean direct intervention.

China would probably call for peace talks but not get directly involved. Two reasons:

1. Pakistan has its own nuclear deterrent, which is a far larger escalation of force than the PLA
2. There are only a few points by which the PLA can actually enter the theater of operations - narrow Himalayan roads - which means easy interdiction, which means they won't.

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

Personally i would love to meet a guy like your status.Your profile say that you're currently in Kolkata.Then let's just meet one day and perhaps i will be able to make you change your opinion about the Indian Armed Forces.Well what do you say,do you have it in you to meet me personally at Gariahat perhaps!!

Friendly advice :- If you are planning to meet him then make sure to carry and spray baygon on him.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

"The Indian infantry man is poorly trained and equipped, high on bravado and low on equipment and training. I would rate him 3/10 ---- LT-Gen(retd)H.S Panag

I am a common man. but I will stir the smooth sands of status quoism, monotony & apathy." --- What a balony!!! when the sole moto of your life is bypassing the duties like coward while guzzling the public money.It is a few drops of foul smelling virus infested piss like you that has contaminated the entire armed forces of India.

Trust me I was not threatening you since Pakistani and Chinese armies are enough to bring about an acid rain behind your bum to create tiny holes into your phoreign g string imported from cut money who knows from which deal . Pakistanis are at least genuine to whatever twisted faith they have. They at least got the stuff in their sack to face a several times bigger opponent for what ever nonsense reason that might be. Where as the elite army babus like you still undergoing vertebral surgery to stand up right before China . People like you are covering their tainted smug face by hijacking the extreme sacrifices made by ordinary soldiers.
Just think of a Pakistan that is about half the size of India !!! Pardon me if my gedenken experiment is about to soil your seat. Perhaps By now there wouldn't have been a state called India.

Everybody knows that ammunition stock of Indian army is not optimum ( and justifiably so) but when ever there is a need for a proactive measure (Even in 71 war army tried the same trick but luckily didn't succeed) , showing this shortage of ammunition boogie to avoid duties like the king of thugs Gen Deepak kapoor ( another black sheep, the Big daddy of corruption ) is only the sign of a traitor.By the way perhaps you have forgotten that most of us can't even afford daily essentials just to feed people like you in IA and and keep them drunk at a subsidized rate, so forget about an Ac. As far as military matter is concerned I know and understand all that can be by a civilian by being an avid reader for the past 15 years of hundreds of journals, blogs and forums but because I don't have the habit of mental masturbation and frantically ejaculating all over the public forums with 40 thousand odd posts, you are certainly The boss in that regard. I joined this forum in late 2009 with an ID BLADE but having lost the password rejoined with a new id. I prefer to read more, than being an overly talkative garrulous chatter box like you.

Your question is incomplete and vague just like you are. Unless you mention the kind of war that has to be fought and the objective of war the necessary stockpile can not be determined.What is logistic supply mechanism ? really ? With a bit of goggling any Dickhead can pick a number of good accounts for this. Wiki has given a brief and systematic description about the logistic mechanism along with hundreds of pages in Bharat-rakshak. Why wasting time on easily available material ? Are you basically trying to check my browsing skills ? you are a smart boy Mr. Moron Ray.

Well let me assure you that I am no warrior. So you need not loose your sleep over my posts. But Pakistani BAT might be a very real threat to your neck. So please be careful.

No one is asking for a total capitulation of enemy and a territorial gain in any form. It is one of your pathetic attempts to deviate from the topic. If leaving four Indian peaks (including 5353) in Pakistani possession is not a debacle and inclusive then what would it be? Only after PLA split up India in several parts and you get your rations from PLA for cleaining their toilets ? Indian Army general forced the GOI to cover up army's inefficiency and the ramification. Only when the official accounts of 99 is declassified in some distant future we will know what exactly happened there. You are so true kargil wasn't a debacle , it was an act of treason led by the miscreants like Gen Deepak kapoor and his brigade of lap dancers comprised of immoral parasites like you who once the war was over ware all busy washing off their lingerie with the blood of gallant fighters and young officers of Indian Army. Puke and spit for people like you. Should be sent for eternal damnation with raging bulls in mating spree.

My revelation about my Forbes IQ score was a bum spanking reply to your misdemeanor in the form of "Got it steve" but you simply don't get subtle points easily do ya ? Given your low IQ this is quiet expected but I am just wondering if the report of severe corruption in Indian army recruitment process is really this genuine that they even hired nonsense rascals like you !!! Good heavens. It is only possible for a scumbag of your caliber to draw an Utopian inference saying I am comparing Taliban and Indian army as institutions from "If fearlessness at the grass root level is the only mark of a combat force then Talibans are standing shoulder to shoulder with Indian army(If not Far above)."

What the hell the IA's relief operations have gotta do with the corrupted and coward generals and top level officers and their naked display of shamelessness ? It is the rotten potatoes like Gen Deepak kapoor who represents the Indian army. Oh it is one more trick out of your box to bypass the main line. Well then leave it at that . you win Mr. Moron

The very point of my post was not to generalize anything to begin with but which is too hard for you to get into you dry thick skull. You ware entitled to challenge me for a source rather than constantly focusing on my pajama, pant and material analysis of my feet and DNA structure.

Ex DG has little to do with this directly but after politicians bureaucrats and police men and other law enforcement agencies now it is the term for Indian armed forces to come up with a new standard of institutionalized corruption in India. Time is not far when chiefs and top officers of armed forces will be rushing to medical facilities with a complain of hepatitis in their heart. BSF has already set an exemplary standard in establishing a wide and deep web with different underworld agencies those are promoting drugs and smuggling in India. It is only matter of time the Indian Army join them as equal partners.

Come on honey why don't you enlighten me with your Ray of knowledge, teach me something please. What better job do you have with a healthy bank balance made of tax payers money? looking at the number of posts made by you, i sincerely envy your richness in leisure time.

India even allow hurriyat leaders to hold seminars Delhi and spew venom against India. That is the flexibility of our democracy.So what do you consider Army to be ? Something over and above all criticisms ,scrutiny and the civil society of India? So If you think just because you are a moderator you have the right to gag me for going against your long standing beliefs then you are about to face a very hard time here from now on. Since I really do not care who you are as long as I am not indulging into any personal attack and ready to substantiate my claims with enough material(Even though it is not an absolutely necessary thing owing to the fact that no one cares to show a credible link to criticize a politician or a civilian, So you like me or my comments or not you have to bare with me) . So why don't you just shove up those big boss dialogues of yours and spare the band width.

NUTJOB ALERT !

 

[brational]

Just leave him mate.He is probably one of those nutjob naxal jholawalas of Jadavpur University.We have plenty of wackos like him here in Kolkata.These people are the sole reason why the rest of the Indians nowadays think that the general Bengali populace are a bunch of faint hearted cowards who will do anything to escape joining the Armed Forces.Actually i feel sorry for these nutjobs because they don't realize that they are in a sense disrespecting the countless Bengali Freedom fighters who made the supreme sacrifice for our Motherland.These guys are nothing but vermin,if i had my way i would have eradicated parasites like him a long time ago from this country

He had made a point on corruption in the Indian Armed Forces and to some extent, it is true. We have heard of several cases of corruption related to arms procurements, land scams by senior military brasses. Corruption has deep rooted in every sphere or our lives and this is a bitter truth to accept. Ripples should have avoided raising these issues in open forums and stayed away from foul play agaist ray. Otherwise these kind of discussions are meaningful, afterall every patriotic indian would like to see the armed forces free from corruption.

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

He had made a point on corruption in the Indian Armed Forces and to some extent, it is true. We have heard of several cases of corruption related to arms procurements, land scams by senior military brasses. Corruption has deep rooted in every sphere or our lives and this is a bitter truth to accept. Ripples should have avoided raising these issues in open forums and stayed away from foul play agaist ray. Otherwise these kind of discussions are meaningful, afterall every patriotic indian would like to see the armed forces free from corruption.

You are not understanding. Me/we too are against corruption and rational enough to acknowledge and talk about it. But the problem is his gutter mouth. The language he used against IA in general and a highly respected defence proffessional of this forum is just pathetic and sickening. :sic:

If that kinda language doesnt meet the threshold of a warning/ban then what is.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Debates can be discussed in Civil, For your language you get a ban ..

I am a common man. but I will stir the smooth sands of status quoism, monotony & apathy." --- What a balony!!! when the sole moto of your life is bypassing the duties like coward while guzzling the public money.It is a few drops of foul smelling virus infested piss like you that has contaminated the entire armed forces of India..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. India have sufficient fleet assets to monitor Malacca straits buts Its the Andaman`s island ( Natural MEGA carrier ) and its assets which will insure a blockade whereas submarines which are more suited in this kind of warfare and Aircraft for any offensive role as well as Anti-submarines roles ..

2. Its not FGFA but upgraded MKI and Tejas both MK1&2 which will be most technologically advance and front-line fighters of near future ..

3. Tactical BM are for longer range attacks not PJ-10 ..

Simply a wish list which is years behind any actual utility.

1. Vikramaditya : Pros: The most credible of the five weapons in terms of actual utility. India has some operational experience in real war time scenario. Mig 29k are good multirole fighters at least on paper.
cons: India hardly posses enough supporting ships to form a powerful enough CBG that can enforce a blockade in the Malacca strait against prying Chinese Submarines. Since USA is taking DF 21 seriously so will I.

2. FGFA: A distant dream. Russia neither has the expertise nor resource to pull off a project like this. Fast depleting Russian technological superiority in the key fields such as supercomputing and electronics and their backward research infra in nano tech will always remain an insurmountable obstacle. It will be Indian tax payers money that will be sucked and dry and the final product will have everything but the most essentials i.e stealth,cutting edge miniaturized electronics and a next generation engine .

3. Brahmos: The second most effective weapon among the list of five. But without a long range supplementary in the form of sub sonic cruise missiles brahmos ashm has little chance of success again PLAN. The land version will suffer due to the same reason. Having said this the air launched version has the potential of being a game changer in the foreseeable future if utilized with right tactics.

 

[Ray]

Just for a clarification, even though it is not essential.

There are bad hats everywhere, including the armed forces.

However, to broad brush all as rotten eggs. just because one rotten chap, Deepak Kapoor, who thinks epitomises the Army is not fair or acceptable.

I, myself, have been angered by the wrong doings that have surfaced about the Army. But, for such incidents, does it make it fair to broadbrush the organisation as useless and corrupt?

Indeed, the armed forces have a long way to go to fight a war to win, but then does it mean that we cannot, given our current resources, not be able to defend our Nation? Defending a nation and taking the war into the enemy territories and wage a 'Total War' is another kettle of fish.

I agree that those not in the military may not understand, but that does not mean that one without basis slander the Armed Forces and declare that it is running scared of China or Pakistan.

When one is not sure of the facts and yet wants to show frustration, one must carefully chose his words to convey what one wants to state without being unfair and vitriolic for impressing as if one is 'in the know's' sake.

Sadly, folks do not know military history and do not realise that in similar circumstances, we took on the Chinese at Cho La, Nathu La and Somdarong Chu.

We did not quake in our pants.

Having served in the Army, and where the Army and the Nation, has done me well, I will reiterate that unfair and sensational scaremongering will be contested by me with all the might at my command.

I cannot be a namak haram.

 

[Ripples]

1. India have sufficient fleet assets to monitor Malacca straits buts Its the Andaman`s island ( Natural MEGA carrier ) and its assets which will insure a blockade whereas submarines which are more suited in this kind of warfare and Aircraft for any offensive role as well as Anti-submarines roles ..

2. Its not FGFA but upgraded MKI and Tejas both MK1&2 which will be most technologically advance and front-line fighters of near future ..

3. Tactical BM are for longer range attacks not PJ-10 ..

1. Well, to be technically right India has been operating CBG's from several decades now but when considered from china's point of view India seriously lacks a long range air defence destroyer which is a must for any formidable CBG around the glob. Presently none of the Indian destroyers or large frigates have a capability anything near to that. Even the anti submarine capability of IN multirole frigates are certainly not very promising since they lack ULF sonars. Chinese have already demonstrated their long strides in this field by chasing and spooking US ships and even by managing to get dangerously close to them at times. So in the presence of huge advantage that Chinese navy currently enjoy in terms of submarines and in sub surface related detection capability it is hard to see how Indian naval assets can be effectively performing their task in malacca strait. Certainly the base in Andaman is going to be of large strategic as well tactical value for India but being stationary and well within the reach of Chinese cruise/ballastic missiles it will not be very wise to expect a Chinese thrust into the land without having taken care of base in Andaman (at least partially). Even I really do not understand how come a highly methodical breed that Chinese are will ever attack Indian without having enough reserves of natural resources. Since this will be the best way to nullify the effects of any Indian blockade in Malacca.

2. Tejas mk 1 and mk 2 among the most advanced jets in near future !!! Even though I don't think that you really believed in what you said I will just ask a few things from you. How exactly a jet(mk I) which is an out right 4th gen fighter in design ( at best) which is too small to carry most of the upcoming front line weapons ( I know about brahmos M), is making it to the so called elite list by toppling MMRCA ? Or you already have a confirmation that the deal is cancelled? I think even the most enthusiastic LCA fan will have some serious objection to this. Now about Mk II this is only a theoretical entity. With the kind of changes those are being brought about in this MK II version will eventually produce a new fighter all together. Even if the MMRCA deal proceeds at this snails pace India is more likely to have her first squadron of MMRCA before the same is ready with LCA MK II. I would love to see you vindicating this point against @p2prada

It goes without saying that Su 30 MKI with a lot of top end features is a very critical asset for IAF but this also comes at very serious compromise and that is RCS. The battle field effectiveness of MKI's will mostly depend on the right tactics employed by IAF in handling AWACS to balance this weakness that comes with MKI's. I once again reiterate that all these arguments about top fighter in the region from Indian side comes from a blind faith that Chinese are not as good as the appear to be ----- Barbora . How the hell India knows that they will not be able to make it feasible by 2022 ? Or you think with periodic upgrades, somehow SU 30 will be capable enough to stand against Chinese stealth fighters.

3. Yes! but this fact alone will not deter China from launching a DF 21 against Indian CBG. I was just explaining why there is a possibility that Brahmos,in spite of being the best in his class may be vulnerable to subsonic cruise missiles. Unless Nirbhay along with a powerful and accurate long range target detection and fire control system is inducted in sufficient numbers the land version of Brahmos will be under tremendous threat. The same argument is equally true for naval scenario since PLAN is in possession of a number of 450+ range anti ship cruise missiles ( subsonic ) like C 802.

 

[Ripples]

For your eyes only

My first post: "Yes I know you would love. But the point is whether Indian army will like it or not . Having spent at least 6 times more than Pakistani Army they are yet to be prepared even for a limited war with Pakistan and you want them to take on China ? . Before every crisis came around the standard vouch and boasting of Indian Army sounded like " we are ready for every eventuality and will give a befitting reply to our enemy " and when the actual situation came the Army version slightly changed and sounded some what like " We are in severe shortage of vital equipment and ammunition, we are not ready for war " Lets ruminate and gloat on 1971 and have a tight sleep.
A highly corrupted organisation of a corrupted nation. Even Vietnam has the necessary guts to stand up against China but we Indians are real pussy." -------How many words do anyone found that was directed to Ray ?

Ray's 1rst reply:

"Got that Steve?"

"You may wet your pants in full free flow, but the armed forces are not your ilk."

"Maybe that is your genre"

"Not as corrupt as your fear crazed mind churn"

"Are you of the Communist hue who love is for their fraternal brothers?"

"Ripple is it?"

"Christ, a wetting to cause a river is what is more appropriate."

"If you have no faith in your country, then you should be treated beneath contempt."

"Also if you are an illiterate in history, then study up Nathu La, Cho la and Sumdorong Chu and many other unreported stand offs."


To thethinker:

"He is a disgraceful element"

"We live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? He? He, who is busy wetting his pants at the imagery of the Chinese hordes, floating his nightmares menacingly?"

"Deep down, in places he and his pant wetters don't talk about the truth at parties, they want others on that wall to save them."

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to such a person charged with such low esteem of his being and who is unable to control his bladder every time he sees ghosts of the Chinese hordes menacingly floating in his inner eye. Coward par excellence! Gutless parasite on the Indian nation to say the least."


my reply:

"All my comments irrespective of how much disagreement it is might be to your opinion was entirely directed toward Indian Army and had hardly anything to do with you as a person but your post seems to be a personal slander. Since it is your first mistake while addressing me I am just going to leave you by saying that please don't try it again since otherwise you might end up repenting your words. You like or not unprofessional thugs of Indian army/IAF such as J.N Choudhuri are the reasons behind the inconclusive end of 1965 Indo-Pak war and many other debacles such as kargil . If fearlessness at the grass root level is the only mark of a combat force then Talibans are standing shoulder to shoulder with Indian army(If not Far above). It is the discretion of action and realization of fear of ramification yet functioning at the optimum level that makes a genuinely professional sane army. I understand that India army is filled with fearless low IQ brigadiers and there is no much space and requirement for self introspection but just for your tranquility of mind let me inform you that my Forbes IQ as of today is 146. The number of causalities in Nathula and Chola incidents are overly fabricated by IA and the data in Wikipedia keep changing on regular basis. And one has to be as stupid as Pakistani mullahs to believe that 40 years after those incidents a proud roguish nation like China with an army driven by indigenous industry is some how balanced by Indian Army with 25% resource compared to PLA out of which a considerable portion is eaten up by corrupted Indian Army top brass/bureaucrats/politicians and a lot is wasted by usual miss management of this public organisations. Mr.Roy,Better you ponder on your own nationality and how much worthy it really was as a service towards this nation and leave my issues with me, since Ex DG police of WestBengal served this state so well that presently lying in hospital clutching his right chest while complaining a stiff pain in the left chest . If you don't like my posts just ignore them and do not care to reply with a personal attack but as long as I see a post that is not sensible as per my point of view I will assert my points with strongest yet objective language since I do not believe in personal attacks. Having said this let me mention one more time that I have no issues with a counter attack with a hammer right on the insolent head. Have a nice time Roy. Thanks for reading me. (Since I do not run an awareness NGO I don't give a damn either about the financially rich yet low IQ citizens pooping in public forums)"------ How many abusive words can you pick in this post?


Ray:

"I shall not repent anything since your threat indicates that you are but a paper tiger with feet of clay and ingenuously a disloyal person, possibly flying a false flag."

"Indeed the IA is full of low IQ people and low IQ Flag rank officers as you claim. But then, who is ensuring a commendable action in flood ravaged Kashmir, where Forbes IQ 146 and more brilliant Joeso like you have floundered and faded into the nooks and cranny of the woodwork panels of their offices looking totally incompetent and impotent and floundering like landed fish?"

"You are still wetting your pants while talking of China. Even if for argument's sake, we go by your fear and bed wetting and pant soiling, can you draw out the scenario how China could attack and defeat India? Do you have any idea of war fighting, operational art or even tactics or the influence of weather, terrain and campaigning season and its effects?"


What followed after that from either side, is lying before everyone to see.


@ To all civilians whoever is reading this post please take a note of the fact that how ever much your chest might be pounding in rage disgust towards me at this moment while feeling proud of Ray there will come a time when you will stand exactly where I am standing today. Whenever a component, however expensive, becomes more important than the entire machine that is right moment to ask a lot of questions. Anyway, all these doesn't matter to me anymore since I will not be allowed to post in this forum anymore. It was wonderful being with you guys in this forum and I can't express how much I will miss my last 5 years in this forum. Thank you all.




@Kunal Biswas I understand that in spite of everything that I have shown and proven above nothing justifies what ever rot I posted. Having said that there is no denying of the fact that a complete absense of infraction towards Ray is an outrageous discremination.

Eventhough I fully understand your compultion in this matter I would only like to suggest that a straight cut ban without showing a reason such as "Debates can be discussed in Civil, For your language you get a ban .." would have been far less sanctimonious. No one really cares about the language part otherwise Ray would not have been spared.

Now coming to the issue of posting a credible link in support of my accusations towards Indian armed forces I will only like to mention that If Ray was genuinely interested to know my source, his reply should have read like " PROVIDE A LINK IN SUPPORT OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCE " . To be frank There was not even a single member (beside @brational and @thethinker I showed them some source which is not even 5% of what I have, and I am grateful that they asked for it) who was interested to even ask for a source !!!. Such is the feeling of self righteousness at large in this forum.

So the final conclusion that I can draw is that in a defence forum an ex military personal and a moderator should be treated and feared like a tyrant who is immune to any action. Because of a single post now i am a traitor naxalite from jadavpore hoisting a false flag.
Even though I simply can't express how much i liked spending hundreds of hours of my leisure time being here, reading and typing (initially as BLADE then little as Ripples) I simply can't digest this.

@Ray Please let me call for your attention for one last time. I assure you that this is going to be civil in every sense. In spite of what you may think of me I am really not naive enough to consider you even 1% of the things that I accused you of in my earlier posts or will accuse you of in the next post. It was just a personal attack for the sake of it. Even though I know that you really don't care what I talked about you but may be it is appropriate and very necessary to bring a permanent Ban on me since I just can't stop. You are entitled to consider my actions to be my false ego a twisted exhibition of fear & cowardice, a cheap stunt.a sign of identity crisis of a false flag hoister from Pakistan or China but for me this stern criticism of Indian armed forces upper echelon is entirely justified with what ever report is available in the public domain and regarding the replies in disgraceful words to you just like what you tried on me was entirely a matter of vengeance .So please let us end this with a permanent ban on me before I end up spoiling this thread with more mundane replies in distasteful language. Which I will certainly do.

 

[Ripples]

nothing much.

 

[Rushil51]

Self Delete

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. Experience and skills are more important than just technology, Technology is indeed important but cannot compensate for Skills, IN have good Air-defense system in form of Shtil-1 , Barak-1 and CIWS such as AK-630, Regarding Sonar IN frigate in blue water are quite well equipped what you are mentioning is the sonar for littoral waters and about the PLAN subs incident are happens to be in Blue waters ,

When we are talking about Malacca straits IN fleet is a part of a bigger system which consist of land based assets in Andaman Islands which actually play major role here and if we talk about Cruise missiles from PLAN then the question is from which platform ?, Certainly their lone carrier wont be maneuvering in tight spots of straits against squadrons of IAF & IN so does IN submarine Arm, Nor their bombers or fighter will able to sneak into such area without detection via other nations as well as our observation radars, The only thing left is their Submarine force in shallow waters of Andaman which is too unlikely due to the heavy presence of IN Anti-submarine air-arm and submarines, The only way of accessing to bay of Bengal is through Andaman sea and the other way is through bottom of Indian Ocean in both case Anti-submarine forces both Indian and US and its allies are present ..

------------

2. Unless you are trolling better read my words again, Tejas both MK1 &2 are one of the most advance Jets in IAF, And these Jets are design for tactical air superiority and CAS so does SEAD mission in all of these mission there is no role of Brahmos M, Brahmos M has role for anti-shipping, The Generation term is an invention of companies like Boeing and Lockheed for Marketing & layman understanding, But if one has to evaluate a fighter bases on its capabilities it cannot be categorize in terms like generations, For example Tejas MK1 has higher percentage of composites and use anti-radar paint unlike present on most advance 4th generation fighters even in 4.5gen which is essential in stealth, It has the best glass cockpit as of now in IAF and one of the finest internal ECM suits and a 90 degree bore HMDS sight unlike in Any there fighter in IAF, MMRCA and FGFA are both diluted future with doubts besides that these are not going to be produce in mass anywhere in near future unlike Tejas at hands ..

Such Points are Raised in Tejas related threads which are full of it by me and @ersakthivel, If anyone has doubt better read and argue there ..

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3. DF-21 as a silver bullet is best remain as a propaganda tool, There are not a single conform test or its subject till date being available in open unlike they were about there stealth fighters in official leaks ..

1. Well, to be technically right India has been operating CBG's from several decades now but when considered from china's point of view India seriously lacks a long range air defence destroyer which is a must for any formidable CBG around the glob. Presently none of the Indian destroyers or large frigates have a capability anything near to that. Even the anti submarine capability of IN multirole frigates are certainly not very promising since they lack ULF sonars. Chinese have already demonstrated their long strides in this field by chasing and spooking US ships and even by managing to get dangerously close to them at times. So in the presence of huge advantage that Chinese navy currently enjoy in terms of submarines and in sub surface related detection capability it is hard to see how Indian naval assets can be effectively performing their task in malacca strait. Certainly the base in Andaman is going to be of large strategic as well tactical value for India but being stationary and well within the reach of Chinese cruise/ballastic missiles it will not be very wise to expect a Chinese thrust into the land without having taken care of base in Andaman (at least partially). Even I really do not understand how come a highly methodical breed that Chinese are will ever attack Indian without having enough reserves of natural resources. Since this will be the best way to nullify the effects of any Indian blockade in Malacca.

2. Tejas mk 1 and mk 2 among the most advanced jets in near future !!! Even though I don't think that you really believed in what you said I will just ask a few things from you. How exactly a jet(mk I) which is an out right 4th gen fighter in design ( at best) which is too small to carry most of the upcoming front line weapons ( I know about brahmos M), is making it to the so called elite list by toppling MMRCA ? Or you already have a confirmation that the deal is cancelled? I think even the most enthusiastic LCA fan will have some serious objection to this. Now about Mk II this is only a theoretical entity. With the kind of changes those are being brought about in this MK II version will eventually produce a new fighter all together. Even if the MMRCA deal proceeds at this snails pace India is more likely to have her first squadron of MMRCA before the same is ready with LCA MK II. I would love to see you vindicating this point against @p2prada

It goes without saying that Su 30 MKI with a lot of top end features is a very critical asset for IAF but this also comes at very serious compromise and that is RCS. The battle field effectiveness of MKI's will mostly depend on the right tactics employed by IAF in handling AWACS to balance this weakness that comes with MKI's. I once again reiterate that all these arguments about top fighter in the region from Indian side comes from a blind faith that Chinese are not as good as the appear to be ----- Barbora . How the hell India knows that they will not be able to make it feasible by 2022 ? Or you think with periodic upgrades, somehow SU 30 will be capable enough to stand against Chinese stealth fighters.

3. Yes! but this fact alone will not deter China from launching a DF 21 against Indian CBG.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You are in a defense forum and our defense professional are our stars, I had no choice to Temp ban you for your words ..

Once served in Military or in service, Any kind of abuse to our organization or our one is insulting to us all ..

============

Topic such as of this gravity can only be discussed in civil Only !

@Ray Please let me call for your attention for one last time..

 

[ersakthivel]

1. Experience and skills are more important than just technology, Technology is indeed important but cannot compensate for Skills, IN have good Air-defense system in form of Shtil-1 , Barak-1 and CIWS such as AK-630, Regarding Sonar IN frigate in blue water are quite well equipped what you are mentioning is the sonar for littoral waters and about the PLAN subs incident are happens to be in Blue waters ,

When we are talking about Malacca straits IN fleet is a part of a bigger system which consist of land based assets in Andaman Islands which actually play major role here and if we talk about Cruise missiles from PLAN then the question is from which platform ?, Certainly their lone carrier wont be maneuvering in tight spots of straits against squadrons of IAF & IN so does IN submarine Arm, Nor their bombers or fighter will able to sneak into such area without detection via other nations as well as our observation radars, The only thing left is their Submarine force in shallow waters of Andaman which is too unlikely due to the heavy presence of IN Anti-submarine air-arm and submarines, The only way of accessing to bay of Bengal is through Andaman sea and the other way is through bottom of Indian Ocean in both case Anti-submarine forces both Indian and US and its allies are present ..

------------

2. Unless you are trolling better read my words again, Tejas both MK1 &2 are one of the most advance Jets in IAF, And these Jets are design for tactical air superiority and CAS so does SEAD mission in all of these mission there is no role of Brahmos M, Brahmos M has role for anti-shipping, The Generation term is an invention of companies like Boeing and Lockheed for Marketing & layman understanding, But if one has to evaluate a fighter bases on its capabilities it cannot be categorize in terms like generations, For example Tejas MK1 has higher percentage of composites and use anti-radar paint unlike present on most advance 4th generation fighters even in 4.5gen which is essential in stealth, It has the best glass cockpit as of now in IAF and one of the finest internal ECM suits and a 90 degree bore HMDS sight unlike in Any there fighter in IAF, MMRCA and FGFA are both diluted future with doubts besides that these are not going to be produce in mass anywhere in near future unlike Tejas at hands ..

Such Points are Raised in Tejas related threads which are full of it by me and @ersakthivel, If anyone has doubt better read and argue there ..

------------

3. DF-21 as a silver bullet is best remain as a propaganda tool, There are not a single conform test or its subject till date being available in open unlike they were about there stealth fighters in official leaks ..

Besides it has one of the lowest clean config RCS and bigger radar(bigger than rafale) ,
A combination not available in any IAF fighter, which is of very crucial importance in air warfare, which is often ignored by its critics.

 

[ersakthivel]

1. Well, to be technically right India has been operating CBG's from several decades now but when considered from china's point of view India seriously lacks a long range air defence destroyer which is a must for any formidable CBG around the glob. Presently none of the Indian destroyers or large frigates have a capability anything near to that. Even the anti submarine capability of IN multirole frigates are certainly not very promising since they lack ULF sonars. Chinese have already demonstrated their long strides in this field by chasing and spooking US ships and even by managing to get dangerously close to them at times. So in the presence of huge advantage that Chinese navy currently enjoy in terms of submarines and in sub surface related detection capability it is hard to see how Indian naval assets can be effectively performing their task in malacca strait. Certainly the base in Andaman is going to be of large strategic as well tactical value for India but being stationary and well within the reach of Chinese cruise/ballastic missiles it will not be very wise to expect a Chinese thrust into the land without having taken care of base in Andaman (at least partially). Even I really do not understand how come a highly methodical breed that Chinese are will ever attack Indian without having enough reserves of natural resources. Since this will be the best way to nullify the effects of any Indian blockade in Malacca.

2. Tejas mk 1 and mk 2 among the most advanced jets in near future !!! Even though I don't think that you really believed in what you said I will just ask a few things from you. How exactly a jet(mk I) which is an out right 4th gen fighter in design ( at best) which is too small to carry most of the upcoming front line weapons ( I know about brahmos M), is making it to the so called elite list by toppling MMRCA ? Or you already have a confirmation that the deal is cancelled? I think even the most enthusiastic LCA fan will have some serious objection to this. Now about Mk II this is only a theoretical entity. With the kind of changes those are being brought about in this MK II version will eventually produce a new fighter all together. Even if the MMRCA deal proceeds at this snails pace India is more likely to have her first squadron of MMRCA before the same is ready with LCA MK II. I would love to see you vindicating this point against @p2prada

It goes without saying that Su 30 MKI with a lot of top end features is a very critical asset for IAF but this also comes at very serious compromise and that is RCS. The battle field effectiveness of MKI's will mostly depend on the right tactics employed by IAF in handling AWACS to balance this weakness that comes with MKI's. I once again reiterate that all these arguments about top fighter in the region from Indian side comes from a blind faith that Chinese are not as good as the appear to be ----- Barbora . How the hell India knows that they will not be able to make it feasible by 2022 ? Or you think with periodic upgrades, somehow SU 30 will be capable enough to stand against Chinese stealth fighters.

3. Yes! but this fact alone will not deter China from launching a DF 21 against Indian CBG. I was just explaining why there is a possibility that Brahmos,in spite of being the best in his class may be vulnerable to subsonic cruise missiles. Unless Nirbhay along with a powerful and accurate long range target detection and fire control system is inducted in sufficient numbers the land version of Brahmos will be under tremendous threat. The same argument is equally true for naval scenario since PLAN is in possession of a number of 450+ range anti ship cruise missiles ( subsonic ) like C 802.

Please tell us what is the difference between 4th and 4.5 th gen and how tejas becomes 4th gen and others become 4.5th gen?

tejas mk2 will have a bigger ASEA radar than Rafale and has a low clean config RCS as well. ADA chief has already said that it will have the interface to fire Meteor the primary weapon of rafale in BVR combat.

Also right now it has HMDS enabled Visually cued deadly WVR missile like R73 E which is the primary close combat weapon of Su-30 MKI.

SO how does it become 4th gen while others become 4.5th gen?

Please tell us what you know about brahmos_M and then we can talk which fighter will cary it.

Swedes also call gripen E 4.5th gen and it also has won competitions beating bigger rafales and typhoons by winning with most effective cost-capability match.

Mk2 is no imaginative entity.

Already its production drawings are being dispatched to production agencies, and most of its test points will be covered by the FOC tejas mk1 flight testing itself as it is designed with same wing loading and just a 0.5 meter fuselage enhancement.

Please Google how long it took gripen E from becomming a practical reality from imaginative entity and compare the time frame with the griepn A/B, C/D journey.

parallels apply to tejas also.

What is most important is tejas mk2 will have its own spanking new technologically sophisticated production line for tejas mk1 to bank upon for faster rolling out of better production quality models, unlike Tejas mk1 models coming out in an excruciating slow pace from older tech jaguar production line.

And tejas mk2 faces no sanction delays , ASR creep delays faced by tejas mk1.