China-India ties poised for an 'orbital jump,' says Doval

Ahsan Bin Tufail

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As I mentioned in my earlier posts ,in India, army is not even nearly as important or relevant as it is in Pakistan and this has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's so called patriotism.
True to a large extent, but as awareness is increasing among masses, role of Army in national affairs is decreasing although not visible yet and still a debatable issue. But yes, I care for my country and its people and it is indeed patriotism and I found my Army to stand with me especially as natural calamities like flood have created a disaster. I found both civilian and Army led regimes who were ruling us in the past responsible for such a chaos in this piece of territory that is called Pakistan.
If we were to follow your logic then even in administration and government organisations there are thousands of people working for paltry salary under stiff constraints to generate national wealth, a part of which is ultimately used to pay up the salary and for the well being of the personals of defense sector.
100% Agreed. There may be civil servants who haven't illegally utilized public resources for their benefit which is a norm otherwise.
Just to keep up their sagging moral we just can't stop talking about rampant corruption and worthless work culture ! can we?
Rampant corruption can be discussed and indeed it is more of an issue but worthless work culture and that too in Defense Forces, the pinnacles of national ethical standards, is the thing unknown to me perhaps due to my inexperience and lack of knowledge that I never came across such a thing here in my country. (Please do keep in mind that I will turn 30 next year and I have never served in any Defence forces ).
Similarly in spite of all the great sacrifices made by our armies and all the respect that we may have for them we should not stop us calling spade a spade.
Agreed
Every individual has a right and contribution towards the nation in his or her own way. Since we are all shareholders therefore it is absolutely unnecessary to attribute any sacredness to army.
Agreed if that remains well within the limits of our constitution.
Defence mechanism of a nation is not just about it's armed forces. Geography,resource, quality of social structure , moral values,education, strength of diplomacy along with the armed forces together constitute the complete defence of a nation against all kind of internal and external threats. Out of all these components armed forces by its own is only for short term solution and is the hard power and it needs right diplomacy for long term strategic maneuvers which India severely lacks.
Agreed but I don't know about India much to find myself interfering without knowledge of things. Still learning about India and it is my purpose behind joining DFI.
99 kargil was no master plan by Pakistani army rather a very short sighted and utterly foolish one.
Agreed
The entire fault was of Indian army for have not been able to read the psych of its eternal enemy. India inflicted small kargils on Pakistan in the past so it was well expected that Pakistan would and should try something similar at appropriate moment. Even there were intelligence reports apprehending such an attempt. Yet it happened. and result ? hundreds of Indian army men died covering the fat bums of big boys. People also made some profits buying coffins for the deans (Thanks to Pakistan). Similarly Pakistani corrupted general thought he could send some light infantry and terrorists from Pakistani cottage industry and capture such a large chunk of territory simply because India got away with a tactically somewhat similar yet vastly downsized operation is the past. They didn't even bother to have a contingency plan !!! At least they could have smuggled a few dozens of BVRM for their F 16s!!! some long range artillary from middle east, But nothing. They failed and humiliated Pakistan internationally, leaving shocked citizens gloating around in public forums and describing how bravely Share khan fought and received shahadat as if job of the soldiers is to fight and fish for the opportunity to die while generals talk big, bungle , be in the state of denial for as long as possible , and when the pole is shoved deep inside that is the time to wear a sun glass take a sip on foreign liquor and say chor yaar agli bar zaroor dekh lenge and head for some belly dance.
I would just say that we can't measure the pain of the family of Sher Khan, he died while doing the task for which he was hired, to defend his country just like thousands of patriots from both sides. Yes, indeed rampant corruption is unforgivable a thing on both sides.
As far as I am concerned I only believe in what human beings can know and don't even bother to bring god into everything from urine to uranium.
I respect your liberties, but I am of the opinion that God is our very reason of survival.
 

prohumanity

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nothing personal at all to the two of you ......im so sorry i cant agree
actually i wish you were right and myself mistaken

but i can smell the naivete of pre 1962 all over again and i can hear the ccp-chinny-ians sniggering quietly
in the background .

Arya-varta, please be careful of that fiend, the dragon.
Roma, there is a huge difference between 1962 Chinese leadership and today's Chinese leadership. When Brits left India in 1947, idealistic, starry eyed Nehru was out of touch with reality and did not want a strong military for India. Consequently, in 1962, Chinese Hardcore communist leaders with newly acquired military strength took advantage of Nehru's weakness. So, they attacked and captured Tibet. Nehru rushed to western powers to get military help....there was little response ...too little ..too late for Western powers to help India. A few large transport planes were sent to India after Chinese forces declared ceasefire and occupied Tibet. The military imbalance was big time in favor of China in 1962. Today, Indian military is very powerful and can give huge nose bleed if China dares to poke nose in Indian territory..Chinese leaders of today very well understand this.
Moreover, to-days Chinese leaders are aware that to do trade with India can be very profitable and they would be better of being allies and friendly to India. Those hardcore communists are gone and pragmatic leader are running China. But, I do agree with you that India needs to very alert and careful and keep developing a very strong military in case, some unfortunate day, it ends up being attacked by China or Nato. Although the possibility of this type of attack seems to me , less than 0.5%.
Pakistan factor is becoming irrelevant each day with infighting within Pakistan and its downward sliding economy...plus the big risk of Pakistan being taken over by AlQuida type/isis type Militants. Chinese president cancelled visit to Pakistan scheduled for Sept 15 when he was supposed to declare a loan of 35 billion dollars to Pakistan. But, due to current messy situation in Pakistan, Chinese do not want to lose such a big amount of money ..so they cancelled the visit. Talk is cheap..follow the money and see where China is putting its money.
 
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Ray

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All my comments irrespective of how much disagreement it is might be to your opinion was entirely directed toward Indian Army and had hardly anything to do with you as a person but your post seems to be a personal slander. Since it is your first mistake while addressing me I am just going to leave you by saying that please don't try it again since otherwise you might end up repenting your words. You like or not unprofessional thugs of Indian army/IAF such as J.N Choudhuri are the reasons behind the inconclusive end of 1965 Indo-Pak war and many other debacles such as kargil . If fearlessness at the grass root level is the only mark of a combat force then Talibans are standing shoulder to shoulder with Indian army(If not Far above). It is the discretion of action and realisation of fear of ramification yet functioning at the optimum level that makes a genuinely professional sane army. I understand that India army is filled with fearless low IQ brigadiers and there is no much space and requirement for self introspection but just for your tranquility of mind let me inform you that my Forbes IQ as of today is 146. The number of causalities in Nathula and Chola incidents are overly fabricated by IA and the data in Wikipedia keep changing on regular basis. And one has to be as stupid as Pakistani mullahs to believe that 40 years after those incidents a proud roguish nation like China with an army driven by indigenous industry is some how balanced by Indian Army with 25% resource compared to PLA out of which a considerable portion is eaten up by corrupted Indian Army top brass/bureaucrats/politicians and a lot is wasted by usual miss management of this public organisations. Mr.Roy,Better you ponder on your own nationality and how much worthy it really was as a service towards this nation and leave my issues with me, since Ex DG police of WestBengal served this state so well that presently lying in hospital clutching his right chest while complaining a stiff pain in the right chest . If you don't like my posts just ignore them and do not care to reply with a personal attack but as long as I see a post that is not sensible as per my point of view I will assert my points with strongest yet objective language since I do not believe in personal attacks. Having said this let me mention one more time that I have no issues with a counter attack with a hammer right on the insolent head. Have a nice time Roy. Thanks for reading me. (Since I do not run an awareness NGO I don't give a damn either about the financially rich yet low IQ citizens pooping in public forums)
I am aware that you were targeting the Indian Army. Even the blind could see that. And I am not blind.

My post was not slander. It was a befitting enjoinder to an accusation against the military without providing facts and pandering to generalities and phrases out of context.

Do banish the notion that you can threaten me with cyberspace street level 'courage'. I shall not repent anything since your threat indicates that you are but a paper tiger with feet of clay and ingenuously a disloyal person, possibly flying a false flag. If your rant was from a Pakistani, it would be understandable.

Yes, the ammunition stock is not optimum and the equipment not quite at its best. But that does not in any way indicate that the military cannot fight a war. Since, it appears you have no idea of warfare, you speak like a fear crazed coot, straight from the airconditioned drawing room of the chatterati class, swilling the bubbly and nibbling at cheese and indulging in general popular gossip and pretending to be knowledgeable.

Since you pretend to be a drawing room know all, can you tell me what should be the ammunition stock to fight a war? And the logistic supply mechanism?

That you have no clue of warfighting, campaigns, political directions for war, geopolitics and the CNP, is indicative of you calling Gen Chaudhuri a thug for what you imagine was an inconclusive 1965 war. Kargil was a debacle? Maybe to armchair drawing room 'warriors' like you who expects wars to mean total annihilation and capitulation of the adversarial country.

My good man, the days of Clausewitz and Total War is over. The contemporary international milieu does not encourage such medieval thoughts. It is time for you to educated yourself beyond your infantile grasp of war.

Your givning the Taliban a notch above structured armies like the IA shows your illiteracy in the field of tactics and strategy, and warfare in general.

It is the insecure and persons with low self esteem who bandy their self assumed qualification. You are doing so by indicating your IQ as of today being 146. And anyway, who cares? It is your word that cannot be verified. For all one knows, given your self-promoting and self advertising 'knowall' misconceptions and your so called 'IQ', it would not be surprising that in the next post you claim that you are God or the Second Coming of Christ.

Indeed the IA is full of low IQ people and low IQ Flag rank officers as you claim. But then, who is ensuring a commendable action in flood ravaged Kashmir, where Forbes IQ 146 and more brilliant Joeso like you have floundered and faded into the nooks and cranny of the woodwork panels of their offices looking totally incompetent and impotent and floundering like landed fish?

Have you noticed that the Army Commander (Low IQ, as per you) has been tweeting updates of people rescued and locations to bring succour to the distress, apart from spearheading a magnificent rescue and food supply delivery programme for the distressed, apart from opening up field hospitals to attend to the injured and hurt and medically needy? They ahve gone into minutest of details to not forget baby food! Whose job is flood relief and disaster management? It is the job of the State Govt full of self acclaimed 146 IQ and more like you who have failed miserably; and that is dereliction of duty if one applies the Low IQ Army norms. So, reveille, old chap. Don't get caught up in your twisted nappy.

If you are not aware of the actions at Nathu La and Chola and you feel that figures are fabricated, then it is time you visit your shrink, since I am sure you are under close treatment for a decade, if that is the span of your lifetime on Planet Earth. If more, then add it to the years.

BTW, have you ever been to the front – any front?

You are still wetting your pants while talking of China. Even if for argument's sake, we go by your fear and bed wetting and pant soiling, can you draw out the scenario how China could attack and defeat India? Do you have any idea of warfighting, operational art or even tactics or the influence of weather, terrain and campaigning season and its effects?

I can explain war fighting to a semi illiterate, but I confess, I have neither the time nor inclination to teach a total illiterate.

And what has the ex DG Police of WB complaining of chest pain to do with the IA?

You must be a juvenile and that is why you are flipping from on issue and flopping to another totally unrelated issue as if it were a video game.

No, I cannot forsake my duty as a Moderator. And so I cannot ignore your anti national ranting on an Indian forum. If I did so, then that would be a breach of faith conferred on me by those empowered to do so.

You are entitled to find faults with the Indian system, but if you do so, back it up with facts and not sweeping generalities.

I am a liberal person and I give enough belay. However, others may not be that kind.

Therefore, the onus on your having a good and a prolonged stay here to enjoy is all dependant on you. Do disabuse the idea that I enjoy the hospitality of this forum at your discretion.
 
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thakur_ritesh

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It is important that the country moves past the Congress fed, '62 loss complexed mindset vis-a-vis China.

Fact of the matter is, China, which was 4 times ahead economically than India in the year 2009, today stands 5 times ahead, and in the last 5 years, Congress fed propaganda only psyched up people further as China galloped faster, and where the deliverables were needed, there was a complete no show. Accept the fact that China is decades ahead than us, and are doing exceptionally well for themselves, we on the other hand come across as more talk and a lot of hot air, than substance. A reality check, back in 2009, at least the global investors started talking about India and China in the same breath, and constant comparisons were made, today, there is no such thing existent, that is the extent we have gone down, and the extent China has moved ahead.

Distance from the craze of being obsessed with China, set the things in order and put them in shape for long term high growth trajectory, that is the only solution ahead for us. We need to get strong economically, and only then will we be in a position to stand with honour globally.

Time China was made a partner than an adversary in this growth, but not at the cost of any compromise on the defence of the country.
 

Ray

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For the fear crazed and ill informed, here is something to munch on

In short, there is power asymmetry on land to our disadvantage, reasonable equality in the air and credible advantages in our favour at sea. It is this totality of the military interface that any adversary has to consider. The balance is not as lopsided as many of our people would have us believe, but it could become that if we are not careful. We must look at the military equations in their totality - and not just those limited to the land border - and develop our capabilities accordingly. Military planners are not concerned with what potential adversaries may or may not do; their task only is to ensure that the equation is not allowed to alter to our disadvantage. This calls for calm and continuing analysis - not alarm.


The writer is a former Commander-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command. He has also been a member of the National Security Advisory Board
India-China: The real military equation | Business Standard Column
There is a disparity encouraged by 10 years of moribund governance.

However, to get despaired and shake in the pants is most misplaced.

Debate if you must, but do so sensibly with fact and without fear crazed angst or incorrectly slander the military capabilities and the military commanders indicating illiteracy in the conduct of war.

Warfighting must be looked at in it holity with the index of CNP.
 
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Ray

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India's rising military might could cause China severe angst if the unthinkable ever occurred.
Kyle Mizokami
June 21, 2014


Editor's Note: Please also see Kyle's recent articles including Five Chinese Weapons of War America Should Fear , The Five Most-Powerful Navies on the Planet and Five Japanese Weapons of War China Should Fear.

India and China have been neighbors for thousands of years, and have traditionally enjoyed good relations. Only recently in their mutual history have the two sides come to blows. Despite that long peaceful history, the brief 1962 border war and subsequent disagreements over territory have chilled relations between the two.

China's recent push to acquire what it considers historically Chinese territory has not been lost on India, and New Delhi has been stepping up modernization of its armed forces. Fortunately, the terrain on their mutual border makes a land war between the two a difficult—but not impossible—proposition. Although China soundly beat India in the 1962 war, the armies of both sides are now more evenly matched and the result could easily be a stalemate.

If India and China were to come to blows, the real war would be fought at sea. China imports large amounts of foreign oil, and two thirds of that must pass through the Indian Ocean. India sits astride the sea lanes providing China with energy. In the event of increased tensions the Indian Navy could impose essentially a blockade on China of vital shipping from the Persian Gulf and Africa.

Such a move could force the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) to travel thousands of miles around the southern end of Asia, into the Indian Ocean to confront Indian naval forces. The fate of the Chinese economy would be in the balance and could escalate to include many different domains of warfare. With that in mind, here our five weapons of such a potential conflict that China would fear most.

VIkramaditya Aircraft Carrier

India has operated aircraft carriers for more than fifty years, starting in 1961 with the carrier INS Vikrant. Commissioned in 2013, INS VIkramaditya is the latest and most powerful in a long line of Indian carriers.

The carrier was originally built for the Soviet Navy as the Baku. The original ship was an anti-submarine warfare carrier with the armament of a cruiser, including two 100mm deck guns, a staggering 192 SA-N-9 surface to air missiles and 12 giant SS-N-12 Sandbox anti-ship missiles.

Mothballed by the Russian Navy in 1996, Baku was purchased by India in 2004. The updated design deleted all cruiser armament, replacing it with a full-length angled flight deck and a ski jump to assist aircraft takeoffs. Vikramaditya's air wing is expected to consist of 30 MiG-29K or Tejas fighters and 12 helicopters.

Vikramaditya's refurbishment has been beset with problems. The ship was to be completed in 2008, but the shipyard encountered difficulties and delivery was pushed back five years. Vikramaditya currently is without active air defenses, relying on passive defenses such as chaff and flares. The Barak-8 short-range air defense system, a joint program by Israel and India, is behind schedule and the AK-630 close-in weapon systems are scheduled to be installed mid-2015.

China fears Vikramaditya because the carrier could lead a blockade of Chinese shipping, its aircraft increasing the Indian fleet's radius of action. Vikramaditya could also contribute offensive air power against any Chinese fleet sortied to break the blockade.

Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)

India's first fifth generation fighter, FGFA is a collaboration between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and the Russian Sukhoi corporation. A derivative of the Russian PAK-FA fighter program, FGFA will mark a quantum leap in Indian Air Force capabilities and will theoretically give India an aircraft in the same class as the American F-22 and Chinese J-20.

FGFA is a large multirole aircraft capable of both air to air and air to ground combat. The fighter will have all the features typical of fifth generation fighters, including a high level of maneuverability, stealth, the ability to supercruise above Mach 1, advanced fire control and an active electronically scanned array radar system.

FGFA will have large internal storage bays capable of carrying guided weapons, including up to six radar-guided missiles. Air to air missile armament will likely be the locally produced Astra, a radar-guided missile under development with a range of up to 100 kilometers. FGFA will also reportedly be capable of carrying the air-launched variant of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, which can attack targets on both land and sea.

India will invest a total of $25 billion dollars in the joint development project, and in return will receive up to 250 fighters. Deliveries are set to begin in 2022.

All of that having been said, FGFA is reportedly having development issues, with Indian officials complaining that the development aircraft has "shortfalls... in terms of performance and other technical features." Many of these shortfalls are temporary but others, such as the complaint that the plane's stealthiness is poorly engineered, could represent real obstacles in achieving all design goals.

China fears the FGFA because it would directly compete with the Chinese J-20 fighter. Despite the reported problems, the FGFA's pedigree includes the legendary Sukhoi aircraft design bureau, with more than 70 years experience in fighter design. The J-20, by contrast, is apparently a wholly indigenous design with little or no foreign expertise. If FGFA turns out to be successful, it will allow India to match advances in Chinese airpower for the foreseeable future.

BrahMos Anti-Ship Missile

A joint Indian-Russian project, BrahMos is a short-range supersonic cruise missile capable of being launched from land, air, and both surface and subsurface ships. Brahmos is one of the most advanced missiles in the world, capable of hitting targets on land and at sea with precision.

BrahMos was developed jointly by India's Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Russia's NPO Mashinostroyeniya. The name itself is a mashup of two Indian and Russian rivers, the Brahmaputra and the Moskva. First flight was in 2001, and three versions—ship, submarine and land—are now operational. The air version, reengineered to be carried by aircraft, is expected to be tested by the end of 2014.

Brahmos is a two stage missile, the first being a booster rocket and the second a ramjet that propels Brahmos to speeds of up to Mach 3. In anti-ship mode the missile homes in just 3-4 meters above the wavetops, giving defenders minimal reaction time. The missile packs a 440 to 660 pound penetrating high explosive warhead. Depending on the variant, the missile has a range of 186 to 310 miles.

The multiplicity of launch platforms means that the Brahmos threat could come from any direction and must be countered with multiple defenses: for example, in order to counter sub-launched Brahmos an enemy would have to invest in both anti-submarine warfare and defense against high-speed missiles. Factor in delivery systems such as the FGFA fighter in the air, ships at sea and trucks on land and Brahmos could come from anywhere.

Brahmos represents a substantial missile threat to the People's Liberation Army and People's Liberation Army Navy. The missile's high speed means that China's unproven air defenses—both on the ground and at sea—will have mere seconds to respond to a Brahmos attack.

Kolkata-Class Destroyer

The Kolkata class is India's latest guided missile destroyer design. Fast and stealthy, with an advanced sensor suite and an array of potent air, land and sea weapons, the Kolkata class would be a formidable ship in any navy.

The Kolkata class destroyers are true multipurpose destroyers, capable of providing protection to India's aircraft carriers or operating independently. The primary radar system, an actively scanned array radar provided by Israeli Aircraft Industries, is reportedly comparable to the American Aegis radar system. The radar is capable of detecting contacts in the air and at sea and provides guidance to radar-guided missiles. The Kolkatas will also feature a bow mounted and towed sonar arrays for detecting submarines.

Armament will be considerable, with vertical launch cells for up to 64 air defense missiles. The missiles will be a mix of short-range Barak 1 and medium range Barak 8 radar-guided surface to air missiles, capable of point and area defense, respectively. Such defensive missile armament will allow it to provide air defense for carrier battle groups, surface action groups, amphibious groups and shipping convoys.

The Kolkatas will pack the heaviest surface-to-surface firepower of any destroyer in any navy, with each ship carrying 16 BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles. Rounding out the ship's armament is a 76mm gun, four AK-630 close-in weapons systems, anti-submarine rockets and torpedoes, and two embarked helicopters with a hangar.

Three Kolkata destroyers are to be built, with the first of class expected to be commissioned this year. A follow-on class of four destroyers with improved stealth characteristics is already being planned.

China would fear the Kolkata class because it would provide air defense for ships such as the Vikramaditya. Armed with 16 BrahMos missiles, the Kolkatas could also operate independently as commerce raiders, threatening Chinese shipping.

Arihant-Class Ballistic-Missile Submarine

Although India has maintained a nuclear arsenal for decades, it has lacked a credible second-strike countervalue capability. The ability to threaten enemy strategic assets and even cities, an insurance policy against surprise nuclear attack, has eluded India. INS Arihant ("Destroyer of Enemies") is the first real step toward fixing that problem. India is only the sixth country in the world to develop an undersea nuclear deterrent.

INS Arihant is India's first ballistic missile submarine, specifically designed to launch nuclear missiles. Arihant will carry twelve K-15 short-range nuclear missiles or four K-4 intermediate range nuclear missiles. K-15 missiles, with their 700-kilometer range, are incapable of reaching China from the Indian Ocean. K-15 missiles, with their 3,500-kilometer range can reach as far as Beijing. As far as India is concerned, that is probably far enough.

Arihant incorporates aspects of Russian submarine design. It is both India's first indigenously built ballistic-missile submarine and first indigenously built nuclear submarine. In another first, the 83MW reactor powering the ship is India's first shipboard nuclear reactor. Russian shipbuilders lent extensive assistance to Indian shipbuilders, and Russian experts assisted the Bhabha Atomic Research Center in design of the reactor.

China should not fear the Arihant per se—India has a "no first use" nuclear policy, meaning it would not be the first to launch nuclear missiles. Even if that policy were to change, a successful Arihant class would only mean about twelve nuclear missiles at sea. Still, those twelve missiles represent the capability to do the unthinkable, and despite stated policy that such a potential threat be taken lightly.

Arihant is nearing sea trials. Three submarines are reportedly planned.

Kyle Mizokami is a writer based in San Francisco who has appeared in The Diplomat, Foreign Policy, War is Boring and The Daily Beast. In 2009 he cofounded the defense and security blog Japan Security Watch. You can follow him on Twitter: @KyleMizokami.

Five Indian Weapons of War China Should Fear | The National Interest
 

Ray

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India is loosening its purse strings for beefing up its military muscle vis-a-vis China in an unprecedented manner. Gone are the days of the ignominious Indian defeat during the brief Sino-Indian war of 1962. For decades since then India had deliberately left its China border infrastructure neglected for fear that it would be exploited by the Chinese to their advantage.

The ongoing Indian activities along the 4,057-km-long China border tell a different tale. By 2020, India would be spending almost $5 billion laying a brand-new infrastructure of roads, railway tracks and airfields.

Moreover, the Indian Army has embarked on a super ambitious cash-rich plan worth $15 billion plan to bolster its China-specific military posture. The plan, which is still awaiting government nod, comprises two aspects: (i) a new mountain corps for deployment along the China border which will cost the nation $ 11.5 billion at the current price-level; and (ii) creation of three more brigades (two infantry and one armoured) at the cost of $ 3.5 billion.

The Indian government is likely to approve the plan any time later this year, but budget constraints are coming in the way for now. The Indian Army currently has 37 divisions, including 4 Rapid (Reorganised Army Plains Infantry Divisions), 18 infantry divisions, 10 mountain divisions, three armored divisions, and two artillery divisions.

The Indian Air Force has already taken strong deterrent steps by moving several squadrons of Su-30 fighters, and six of the first eight squadrons of its new Akash air defence missile systems, to the Chinese border. Way back in 2008, the IAF had stationed its frontline Sukhoi 30 MKI fighters at four bases in the north-east in Tezpur, Bagdogra, Chhabua and Hasimara.

Lately, the IAF has also reactivated its once dormant airbase at Nyoma in Ladakh, which enables IAF to carry out attack missions into Chinese territory in the event of war. Significantly, this was the place where the Indian military was humbled during the 1962 War as the Jawaharlal Nehru government strangely decided not to use the air force.

Though India has substantially beefed up its China-specific war muscle, it is still woefully short of what the Dragon has already done. While India is still measuring the length of its completed border roads in hundreds of kilometers, China already has a stupendous road network of 58,000 km of roads leading up to the Indian border.
 

amoy

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My angst is not for India's ever growing military might, but for the wrong foreign policy priority of China that I perceive. In response to India's Look East approach China has to speed up the moves to set Sino Japnese relations back on track. Both countries have downplayed hostility a great deal however it's far far from enough with key facts in mind - Sino-Japan trade amounting to $ 350bln and Japan is a pillar for American pivot !

Have u heard this, Xi while u're preparing yr sweat parlance for Indians?

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2
 

Ray

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My angst is not for India's ever growing military might, but for the wrong foreign policy priority of China that I perceive. In response to India's Look East approach China has to speed up the moves to set Sino Japnese relations back on track. Both countries have downplayed hostility a great deal however it's far far from enough with key facts in mind - Sino-Japan trade amounting to $ 350bln and Japan is a pillar for American pivot !

Have u heard this, Xi while u're preparing yr sweat parlance for Indians?

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2
My angst is not about China.

China has to see what she has to do for her own self interest.

It is for India to balance her security needs and trade equations and we are way behind the requirement.

The last Govt has been sitting on the haunches and proving to be the impediment to India's need.

Fanny Adams for security and Fanny Adams for trade.

Thieving scoundrels at best.

Even Micky Manmohan has been exposed last night on TV.

But the real operators of India's decline are hiding behind the cover of the 'front' stooges
 
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prohumanity

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I think its time for Indians to stop "SinoPhobia" The chance of a war between China and India is practically NIL due to both having very very strong militaries. Did you notice that 3 nations(Russia,China and India) tested nuclear capable missiles on the same day .i.e. on Sept 11,2014. Is it a signal or a coincidence? India is joining SCO in 2015. Silk Roads are being planned from China, India, Myanmar to BanglaDesh. I have not read a single hostile comment by any top Chinese leader in last one year. Instead, I see many positive articles in Chinese media about India. Russia and China are now, openly strategic partners . And, India and Russia are already best friends. So, what really is going on? Is it going to be a Russia, India,China AXIS of trade?
 

t_co

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Nations wage war with one another when what they can gain from victory, times how likely they are to win, outweighs what they might lose in defeat, times how likely they are to lose.

Neither China nor India can gain much from the other in terms of victory. Both China and India, being populous states in the middle of a growth spurt, would have much to lose regardless of outcome and even more to lose in the case of defeat.

Hence neither will go to war with the other.

As for specifics on the Xi-Modi meeting: if both leaders can execute a formal border agreement codifying the LoAC into law, then I think that would be a great win. If they can establish a timetable, that would be a draw. If they simply kick the can down the road, that would be a loss for the two countries.
 

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I am aware that you were targeting the Indian Army. Even the blind could see that. And I am not blind.

My post was not slander. It was a befitting enjoinder to an accusation against the military without providing facts and pandering to generalities and phrases out of context.

Do banish the notion that you can threaten me with cyberspace street level 'courage'. I shall not repent anything since your threat indicates that you are but a paper tiger with feet of clay and ingenuously a disloyal person, possibly flying a false flag. If your rant was from a Pakistani, it would be understandable.

Yes, the ammunition stock is not optimum and the equipment not quite at its best. But that does not in any way indicate that the military cannot fight a war. Since, it appears you have no idea of warfare, you speak like a fear crazed coot, straight from the airconditioned drawing room of the chatterati class, swilling the bubbly and nibbling at cheese and indulging in general popular gossip and pretending to be knowledgeable.

Since you pretend to be a drawing room know all, can you tell me what should be the ammunition stock to fight a war? And the logistic supply mechanism?

That you have no clue of warfighting, campaigns, political directions for war, geopolitics and the CNP, is indicative of you calling Gen Chaudhuri a thug for what you imagine was an inconclusive 1965 war. Kargil was a debacle? Maybe to armchair drawing room 'warriors' like you who expects wars to mean total annihilation and capitulation of the adversarial country.

My good man, the days of Clausewitz and Total War is over. The contemporary international milieu does not encourage such medieval thoughts. It is time for you to educated yourself beyond your infantile grasp of war.

Your givning the Taliban a notch above structured armies like the IA shows your illiteracy in the field of tactics and strategy, and warfare in general.

It is the insecure and persons with low self esteem who bandy their self assumed qualification. You are doing so by indicating your IQ as of today being 146. And anyway, who cares? It is your word that cannot be verified. For all one knows, given your self-promoting and self advertising 'knowall' misconceptions and your so called 'IQ', it would not be surprising that in the next post you claim that you are God or the Second Coming of Christ.

Indeed the IA is full of low IQ people and low IQ Flag rank officers as you claim. But then, who is ensuring a commendable action in flood ravaged Kashmir, where Forbes IQ 146 and more brilliant Joeso like you have floundered and faded into the nooks and cranny of the woodwork panels of their offices looking totally incompetent and impotent and floundering like landed fish?

Have you noticed that the Army Commander (Low IQ, as per you) has been tweeting updates of people rescued and locations to bring succour to the distress, apart from spearheading a magnificent rescue and food supply delivery programme for the distressed, apart from opening up field hospitals to attend to the injured and hurt and medically needy? They ahve gone into minutest of details to not forget baby food! Whose job is flood relief and disaster management? It is the job of the State Govt full of self acclaimed 146 IQ and more like you who have failed miserably; and that is dereliction of duty if one applies the Low IQ Army norms. So, reveille, old chap. Don't get caught up in your twisted nappy.

If you are not aware of the actions at Nathu La and Chola and you feel that figures are fabricated, then it is time you visit your shrink, since I am sure you are under close treatment for a decade, if that is the span of your lifetime on Planet Earth. If more, then add it to the years.

BTW, have you ever been to the front – any front?

You are still wetting your pants while talking of China. Even if for argument's sake, we go by your fear and bed wetting and pant soiling, can you draw out the scenario how China could attack and defeat India? Do you have any idea of warfighting, operational art or even tactics or the influence of weather, terrain and campaigning season and its effects?

I can explain war fighting to a semi illiterate, but I confess, I have neither the time nor inclination to teach a total illiterate.

And what has the ex DG Police of WB complaining of chest pain to do with the IA?

You must be a juvenile and that is why you are flipping from on issue and flopping to another totally unrelated issue as if it were a video game.

No, I cannot forsake my duty as a Moderator. And so I cannot ignore your anti national ranting on an Indian forum. If I did so, then that would be a breach of faith conferred on me by those empowered to do so.

You are entitled to find faults with the Indian system, but if you do so, back it up with facts and not sweeping generalities.

I am a liberal person and I give enough belay. However, others may not be that kind.

Therefore, the onus on your having a good and a prolonged stay here to enjoy is all dependant on you. Do disabuse the idea that I enjoy the hospitality of this forum at your discretion.
"The Indian infantry man is poorly trained and equipped, high on bravado and low on equipment and training. I would rate him 3/10 ---- LT-Gen(retd)H.S Panag

I am a common man. but I will stir the smooth sands of status quoism, monotony & apathy." --- What a balony!!! when the sole moto of your life is bypassing the duties like coward while guzzling the public money.It is a few drops of foul smelling virus infested piss like you that has contaminated the entire armed forces of India.

Trust me I was not threatening you since Pakistani and Chinese armies are enough to bring about an acid rain behind your bum to create tiny holes into your phoreign g string imported from cut money who knows from which deal :). Pakistanis are at least genuine to whatever twisted faith they have. They at least got the stuff in their sack to face a several times bigger opponent for what ever nonsense reason that might be. Where as the elite army babus like you still undergoing vertebral surgery to stand up right before China . People like you are covering their tainted smug face by hijacking the extreme sacrifices made by ordinary soldiers.
Just think of a Pakistan that is about half the size of India !!! Pardon me if my gedenken experiment is about to soil your seat. Perhaps By now there wouldn't have been a state called India.

Everybody knows that ammunition stock of Indian army is not optimum ( and justifiably so) but when ever there is a need for a proactive measure (Even in 71 war army tried the same trick but luckily didn't succeed) , showing this shortage of ammunition boogie to avoid duties like the king of thugs Gen Deepak kapoor ( another black sheep, the Big daddy of corruption ) is only the sign of a traitor.By the way perhaps you have forgotten that most of us can't even afford daily essentials just to feed people like you in IA and and keep them drunk at a subsidized rate, so forget about an Ac. As far as military matter is concerned I know and understand all that can be by a civilian by being an avid reader for the past 15 years of hundreds of journals, blogs and forums but because I don't have the habit of mental masturbation and frantically ejaculating all over the public forums with 40 thousand odd posts, you are certainly The boss in that regard. I joined this forum in late 2009 with an ID BLADE but having lost the password rejoined with a new id. I prefer to read more, than being an overly talkative garrulous chatter box like you.

Your question is incomplete and vague just like you are. Unless you mention the kind of war that has to be fought and the objective of war the necessary stockpile can not be determined.What is logistic supply mechanism ? really ? With a bit of goggling any Dickhead can pick a number of good accounts for this. Wiki has given a brief and systematic description about the logistic mechanism along with hundreds of pages in Bharat-rakshak. Why wasting time on easily available material ? Are you basically trying to check my browsing skills ? you are a smart boy Mr. Moron Ray.

Well let me assure you that I am no warrior. So you need not loose your sleep over my posts. But Pakistani BAT might be a very real threat to your neck. So please be careful.

No one is asking for a total capitulation of enemy and a territorial gain in any form. It is one of your pathetic attempts to deviate from the topic. If leaving four Indian peaks (including 5353) in Pakistani possession is not a debacle and inclusive then what would it be? Only after PLA split up India in several parts and you get your rations from PLA for cleaining their toilets ? Indian Army general forced the GOI to cover up army's inefficiency and the ramification. Only when the official accounts of 99 is declassified in some distant future we will know what exactly happened there. You are so true kargil wasn't a debacle , it was an act of treason led by the miscreants like Gen Deepak kapoor and his brigade of lap dancers comprised of immoral parasites like you who once the war was over ware all busy washing off their lingerie with the blood of gallant fighters and young officers of Indian Army. Puke and spit for people like you. Should be sent for eternal damnation with raging bulls in mating spree.

My revelation about my Forbes IQ score was a bum spanking reply to your misdemeanor in the form of "Got it steve" but you simply don't get subtle points easily do ya ? Given your low IQ this is quiet expected but I am just wondering if the report of severe corruption in Indian army recruitment process is really this genuine that they even hired nonsense rascals like you !!! Good heavens. It is only possible for a scumbag of your caliber to draw an Utopian inference saying I am comparing Taliban and Indian army as institutions from "If fearlessness at the grass root level is the only mark of a combat force then Talibans are standing shoulder to shoulder with Indian army(If not Far above)."

What the hell the IA's relief operations have gotta do with the corrupted and coward generals and top level officers and their naked display of shamelessness ? It is the rotten potatoes like Gen Deepak kapoor who represents the Indian army. Oh it is one more trick out of your box to bypass the main line. Well then leave it at that . you win Mr. Moron

The very point of my post was not to generalize anything to begin with but which is too hard for you to get into you dry thick skull. You ware entitled to challenge me for a source rather than constantly focusing on my pajama, pant and material analysis of my feet and DNA structure.

Ex DG has little to do with this directly but after politicians bureaucrats and police men and other law enforcement agencies now it is the term for Indian armed forces to come up with a new standard of institutionalized corruption in India. Time is not far when chiefs and top officers of armed forces will be rushing to medical facilities with a complain of hepatitis in their heart. BSF has already set an exemplary standard in establishing a wide and deep web with different underworld agencies those are promoting drugs and smuggling in India. It is only matter of time the Indian Army join them as equal partners.

Come on honey why don't you enlighten me with your Ray of knowledge, teach me something please. What better job do you have with a healthy bank balance made of tax payers money? looking at the number of posts made by you, i sincerely envy your richness in leisure time.

India even allow hurriyat leaders to hold seminars Delhi and spew venom against India. That is the flexibility of our democracy.So what do you consider Army to be ? Something over and above all criticisms ,scrutiny and the civil society of India? So If you think just because you are a moderator you have the right to gag me for going against your long standing beliefs then you are about to face a very hard time here from now on. Since I really do not care who you are as long as I am not indulging into any personal attack and ready to substantiate my claims with enough material(Even though it is not an absolutely necessary thing owing to the fact that no one cares to show a credible link to criticize a politician or a civilian, So you like me or my comments or not you have to bare with me) . So why don't you just shove up those big boss dialogues of yours and spare the band width.
 
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ghost

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Nations wage war with one another when what they can gain from victory, times how likely they are to win, outweighs what they might lose in defeat, times how likely they are to lose.

Neither China nor India can gain much from the other in terms of victory. Both China and India, being populous states in the middle of a growth spurt, would have much to lose regardless of outcome and even more to lose in the case of defeat.

Hence neither will go to war with the other.

As for specifics on the Xi-Modi meeting: if both leaders can execute a formal border agreement codifying the LoAC into law, then I think that would be a great win. If they can establish a timetable, that would be a draw. If they simply kick the can down the road, that would be a loss for the two countries.
Sir,

How would China react in case of Indo-PAK war.If Pakistan ask for your help militarily ,facing danger of being overrun by Indian forces.And by militarily I mean direct intervention.:namaste:
 

Ripples

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India's rising military might could cause China severe angst if the unthinkable ever occurred.
Kyle Mizokami
June 21, 2014


Editor's Note: Please also see Kyle's recent articles including Five Chinese Weapons of War America Should Fear , The Five Most-Powerful Navies on the Planet and Five Japanese Weapons of War China Should Fear.

India and China have been neighbors for thousands of years, and have traditionally enjoyed good relations. Only recently in their mutual history have the two sides come to blows. Despite that long peaceful history, the brief 1962 border war and subsequent disagreements over territory have chilled relations between the two.

China's recent push to acquire what it considers historically Chinese territory has not been lost on India, and New Delhi has been stepping up modernization of its armed forces. Fortunately, the terrain on their mutual border makes a land war between the two a difficult—but not impossible—proposition. Although China soundly beat India in the 1962 war, the armies of both sides are now more evenly matched and the result could easily be a stalemate.

If India and China were to come to blows, the real war would be fought at sea. China imports large amounts of foreign oil, and two thirds of that must pass through the Indian Ocean. India sits astride the sea lanes providing China with energy. In the event of increased tensions the Indian Navy could impose essentially a blockade on China of vital shipping from the Persian Gulf and Africa.

Such a move could force the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) to travel thousands of miles around the southern end of Asia, into the Indian Ocean to confront Indian naval forces. The fate of the Chinese economy would be in the balance and could escalate to include many different domains of warfare. With that in mind, here our five weapons of such a potential conflict that China would fear most.

VIkramaditya Aircraft Carrier

India has operated aircraft carriers for more than fifty years, starting in 1961 with the carrier INS Vikrant. Commissioned in 2013, INS VIkramaditya is the latest and most powerful in a long line of Indian carriers.

The carrier was originally built for the Soviet Navy as the Baku. The original ship was an anti-submarine warfare carrier with the armament of a cruiser, including two 100mm deck guns, a staggering 192 SA-N-9 surface to air missiles and 12 giant SS-N-12 Sandbox anti-ship missiles.

Mothballed by the Russian Navy in 1996, Baku was purchased by India in 2004. The updated design deleted all cruiser armament, replacing it with a full-length angled flight deck and a ski jump to assist aircraft takeoffs. Vikramaditya's air wing is expected to consist of 30 MiG-29K or Tejas fighters and 12 helicopters.

Vikramaditya's refurbishment has been beset with problems. The ship was to be completed in 2008, but the shipyard encountered difficulties and delivery was pushed back five years. Vikramaditya currently is without active air defenses, relying on passive defenses such as chaff and flares. The Barak-8 short-range air defense system, a joint program by Israel and India, is behind schedule and the AK-630 close-in weapon systems are scheduled to be installed mid-2015.

China fears Vikramaditya because the carrier could lead a blockade of Chinese shipping, its aircraft increasing the Indian fleet's radius of action. Vikramaditya could also contribute offensive air power against any Chinese fleet sortied to break the blockade.

Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)

India's first fifth generation fighter, FGFA is a collaboration between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and the Russian Sukhoi corporation. A derivative of the Russian PAK-FA fighter program, FGFA will mark a quantum leap in Indian Air Force capabilities and will theoretically give India an aircraft in the same class as the American F-22 and Chinese J-20.

FGFA is a large multirole aircraft capable of both air to air and air to ground combat. The fighter will have all the features typical of fifth generation fighters, including a high level of maneuverability, stealth, the ability to supercruise above Mach 1, advanced fire control and an active electronically scanned array radar system.

FGFA will have large internal storage bays capable of carrying guided weapons, including up to six radar-guided missiles. Air to air missile armament will likely be the locally produced Astra, a radar-guided missile under development with a range of up to 100 kilometers. FGFA will also reportedly be capable of carrying the air-launched variant of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, which can attack targets on both land and sea.

India will invest a total of $25 billion dollars in the joint development project, and in return will receive up to 250 fighters. Deliveries are set to begin in 2022.

All of that having been said, FGFA is reportedly having development issues, with Indian officials complaining that the development aircraft has "shortfalls... in terms of performance and other technical features." Many of these shortfalls are temporary but others, such as the complaint that the plane's stealthiness is poorly engineered, could represent real obstacles in achieving all design goals.

China fears the FGFA because it would directly compete with the Chinese J-20 fighter. Despite the reported problems, the FGFA's pedigree includes the legendary Sukhoi aircraft design bureau, with more than 70 years experience in fighter design. The J-20, by contrast, is apparently a wholly indigenous design with little or no foreign expertise. If FGFA turns out to be successful, it will allow India to match advances in Chinese airpower for the foreseeable future.

BrahMos Anti-Ship Missile

A joint Indian-Russian project, BrahMos is a short-range supersonic cruise missile capable of being launched from land, air, and both surface and subsurface ships. Brahmos is one of the most advanced missiles in the world, capable of hitting targets on land and at sea with precision.

BrahMos was developed jointly by India's Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Russia's NPO Mashinostroyeniya. The name itself is a mashup of two Indian and Russian rivers, the Brahmaputra and the Moskva. First flight was in 2001, and three versions—ship, submarine and land—are now operational. The air version, reengineered to be carried by aircraft, is expected to be tested by the end of 2014.

Brahmos is a two stage missile, the first being a booster rocket and the second a ramjet that propels Brahmos to speeds of up to Mach 3. In anti-ship mode the missile homes in just 3-4 meters above the wavetops, giving defenders minimal reaction time. The missile packs a 440 to 660 pound penetrating high explosive warhead. Depending on the variant, the missile has a range of 186 to 310 miles.

The multiplicity of launch platforms means that the Brahmos threat could come from any direction and must be countered with multiple defenses: for example, in order to counter sub-launched Brahmos an enemy would have to invest in both anti-submarine warfare and defense against high-speed missiles. Factor in delivery systems such as the FGFA fighter in the air, ships at sea and trucks on land and Brahmos could come from anywhere.

Brahmos represents a substantial missile threat to the People's Liberation Army and People's Liberation Army Navy. The missile's high speed means that China's unproven air defenses—both on the ground and at sea—will have mere seconds to respond to a Brahmos attack.

Kolkata-Class Destroyer

The Kolkata class is India's latest guided missile destroyer design. Fast and stealthy, with an advanced sensor suite and an array of potent air, land and sea weapons, the Kolkata class would be a formidable ship in any navy.

The Kolkata class destroyers are true multipurpose destroyers, capable of providing protection to India's aircraft carriers or operating independently. The primary radar system, an actively scanned array radar provided by Israeli Aircraft Industries, is reportedly comparable to the American Aegis radar system. The radar is capable of detecting contacts in the air and at sea and provides guidance to radar-guided missiles. The Kolkatas will also feature a bow mounted and towed sonar arrays for detecting submarines.

Armament will be considerable, with vertical launch cells for up to 64 air defense missiles. The missiles will be a mix of short-range Barak 1 and medium range Barak 8 radar-guided surface to air missiles, capable of point and area defense, respectively. Such defensive missile armament will allow it to provide air defense for carrier battle groups, surface action groups, amphibious groups and shipping convoys.

The Kolkatas will pack the heaviest surface-to-surface firepower of any destroyer in any navy, with each ship carrying 16 BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles. Rounding out the ship's armament is a 76mm gun, four AK-630 close-in weapons systems, anti-submarine rockets and torpedoes, and two embarked helicopters with a hangar.

Three Kolkata destroyers are to be built, with the first of class expected to be commissioned this year. A follow-on class of four destroyers with improved stealth characteristics is already being planned.

China would fear the Kolkata class because it would provide air defense for ships such as the Vikramaditya. Armed with 16 BrahMos missiles, the Kolkatas could also operate independently as commerce raiders, threatening Chinese shipping.

Arihant-Class Ballistic-Missile Submarine

Although India has maintained a nuclear arsenal for decades, it has lacked a credible second-strike countervalue capability. The ability to threaten enemy strategic assets and even cities, an insurance policy against surprise nuclear attack, has eluded India. INS Arihant ("Destroyer of Enemies") is the first real step toward fixing that problem. India is only the sixth country in the world to develop an undersea nuclear deterrent.

INS Arihant is India's first ballistic missile submarine, specifically designed to launch nuclear missiles. Arihant will carry twelve K-15 short-range nuclear missiles or four K-4 intermediate range nuclear missiles. K-15 missiles, with their 700-kilometer range, are incapable of reaching China from the Indian Ocean. K-15 missiles, with their 3,500-kilometer range can reach as far as Beijing. As far as India is concerned, that is probably far enough.

Arihant incorporates aspects of Russian submarine design. It is both India's first indigenously built ballistic-missile submarine and first indigenously built nuclear submarine. In another first, the 83MW reactor powering the ship is India's first shipboard nuclear reactor. Russian shipbuilders lent extensive assistance to Indian shipbuilders, and Russian experts assisted the Bhabha Atomic Research Center in design of the reactor.

China should not fear the Arihant per se—India has a "no first use" nuclear policy, meaning it would not be the first to launch nuclear missiles. Even if that policy were to change, a successful Arihant class would only mean about twelve nuclear missiles at sea. Still, those twelve missiles represent the capability to do the unthinkable, and despite stated policy that such a potential threat be taken lightly.

Arihant is nearing sea trials. Three submarines are reportedly planned.

Kyle Mizokami is a writer based in San Francisco who has appeared in The Diplomat, Foreign Policy, War is Boring and The Daily Beast. In 2009 he cofounded the defense and security blog Japan Security Watch. You can follow him on Twitter: @KyleMizokami.

Five Indian Weapons of War China Should Fear | The National Interest
Simply a wish list which is years behind any actual utility.

1. Vikramaditya : Pros: The most credible of the five weapons in terms of actual utility. India has some operational experience in real war time scenario. Mig 29k are good multirole fighters at least on paper.
cons: India hardly posses enough supporting ships to form a powerful enough CBG that can enforce a blockade in the Malacca strait against prying Chinese Submarines. Since USA is taking DF 21 seriously so will I.

2. FGFA: A distant dream. Russia neither has the expertise nor resource to pull off a project like this. Fast depleting Russian technological superiority in the key fields such as supercomputing and electronics and their backward research infra in nano tech will always remain an insurmountable obstacle. It will be Indian tax payers money that will be sucked and dry and the final product will have everything but the most essentials i.e stealth,cutting edge miniaturized electronics and a next generation engine .

3. Brahmos: The second most effective weapon among the list of five. But without a long range supplementary in the form of sub sonic cruise missiles brahmos ashm has little chance of success again PLAN. The land version will suffer due to the same reason. Having said this the air launched version has the potential of being a game changer in the foreseeable future if utilized with right tactics.

4. Kolkata Class: we can surely talk about these beasts once the Barrack 8 and ATAS are installed. Until then no match for PLAN forget about being a threat.

5. Arihant : More of a TD. A lot of work has to be done before it can be considered even a credible platform let alone being a threat to China. K-4 is still a long way from reality. Even if everything run as planned PLAN has far greater experience in this field. Both in terms of learning curve as well as strategy and tactics.

Conclusion : Its time to stop talking , bend our head and work hard. The less we read and spread such worthless articles pooped out for public consumption the better it is for the nation.
 
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Ripples

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Nations wage war with one another when what they can gain from victory, times how likely they are to win, outweighs what they might lose in defeat, times how likely they are to lose.

Neither China nor India can gain much from the other in terms of victory. Both China and India, being populous states in the middle of a growth spurt, would have much to lose regardless of outcome and even more to lose in the case of defeat.

Hence neither will go to war with the other.

As for specifics on the Xi-Modi meeting: if both leaders can execute a formal border agreement codifying the LoAC into law, then I think that would be a great win. If they can establish a timetable, that would be a draw. If they simply kick the can down the road, that would be a loss for the two countries.
In contrary China will never gain its rightful place in Asia (forget about the world platform ) unless it resolves its territorial disputes with its neighbors by force or by coercive politics. So today or tomorrow they have to prove a point and make a move.
 

Ray

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I will not stoop to your low genetic, upbringing and grooming level since I have class and family heritage to uphold even when confronting guttersnipes.

"The Indian infantry man is poorly trained and equipped, high on bravado and low on equipment and training. I would rate him 3/10 ---- LT-Gen(retd)H.S Panag
Panag served under me. Indeed, the Army can do better and of that there is no doubt and that idea is universally applicable since nothing is perfect in the world.

The point is all want the Moon, but then that is not feasible, or is it?

What one must remember is that amidst all the clutter, beyond all the obstacles, aside from all the static, are the goals set. Therefore, no matter what the circumstances may be it is wise to put one's head down, and do the best job possible and, in the meantime, let the flak pass, and work towards those goals.

While one would love to have the most efficient and most modern army, one has to go to War with The Army the country has---not the Army one might want or wish to have at a later time.

That is the axiom.

Your contention is as flawed as wondering why we are not the No1 Superpower of the world and all are to blame.

I will be kind – I pity you and your ilk since you like to dwell and swell amongst pink clouds.

"I am a common man. but I will stir the smooth sands of status quoism, monotony & apathy." --- What a balony!!! when the sole moto of your life is bypassing the duties like coward while guzzling the public money.It is a few drops of foul smelling virus infested piss like you that has contaminated the entire armed forces of India.
Even though you are being foul, I will not stoop to your gutter level. Forgive me, my upbringing finds that abhorring.

I will confess that I have never had your delight in smelling and savouring urine. Nor have I had the privilege and delight that you find in working in lavatories and toilet to have acquired such unique talent. I presume that too would be one of the skill developments essential that Modi was talking about. At least, that would be generating jobs to the illiterate and otherwise unskilled for higher office/ profession.

I agree standing post at the frontier braving unbelievable cold and wind chill factor, while you are snug as a bug in some metro is indeed duties of coward guzzling the public money.

I do concede that your profession and skill of cleaning lavatories and toilets, is far important to the country than standing post. You are after all looking after the Nation's health and well being, sacrificing yourself in what some call 'shovelling poop'.

Trust me I was not threatening you since Pakistani and Chinese armies are enough to bring about an acid rain behind your bum to create tiny holes into your phoreign g string imported from cut money who knows from which deal :). Pakistanis are at least genuine to whatever twisted faith they have. They at least got the stuff in their sack to face a several times bigger opponent for what ever nonsense reason that might be. Where as the elite army babus like you still undergoing vertebral surgery to stand up right before China . People like you are covering their tainted smug face by hijacking the extreme sacrifices made by ordinary soldiers.
Just think of a Pakistan that is about half the size of India !!! Pardon me if my gedenken experiment is about to soil your seat. Perhaps By now there wouldn't have been a state called India.
You must forgive me. I am not prone to inspecting posteriors in such minute details as possibly you do in the line of profession and your service to the Nation. It is such a noble task that you do observing posteriors, which you call so quaintly 'bums' and check if acid rain emanates there or if it is an external phenomenon.

If active participating in two officially declared wars and being at the front lines and with a raid inside Pakistan, one undeclared war and a whole lot of COIN is being a babu and requiring "undergoing vertebral surgery to stand up right before China" or Pakistan for that matter, then obviously that must be the Gospel to those who professionally peer at poop at the toilet when they execute their profession as you. Shovelling poop must be more daunting that a mere war or a raid. I grant you your importance that you assign to yourself as you clear poop/.

Everybody knows that ammunition stock of Indian army is not optimum ( and justifiably so) but when ever there is a need for a proactive measure (Even in 71 war army tried the same trick but luckily didn't succeed) , showing this shortage of ammunition boogie to avoid duties like the king of thugs Gen Deepak kapoor ( another black sheep, the Big daddy of corruption ) is only the sign of a traitor.By the way perhaps you have forgotten that most of us can't even afford daily essentials just to feed people like you in IA and and keep them drunk at a subsidized rate, so forget about an Ac. As far as military matter is concerned I know and understand all that can be by a civilian by being an avid reader for the past 15 years of hundreds of journals, blogs and forums but because I don't have the habit of mental masturbation and frantically ejaculating all over the public forums with 40 thousand odd posts, you are certainly The boss in that regard. I joined this forum in late 2009 with an ID BLADE but having lost the password rejoined with a new id. I prefer to read more, than being an overly talkative garrulous chatter box like you.
You are yet to answer as to what you feel is the adequate ammunition stock to fight a war.

This indicates that you are but only an empty vessel that makes a whole lot of noise.

If in the 71 war army tried the same trick i.e. lack of ammunition, as you allude, then would you not also concede that isn't the Army done great thing that it liberated Bangaldesh with NO ammunition?

So, you cannot afford can't even daily essentials just to feed people like me in IA and and keep them drunk at a subsidized rate?

Surprising that you did not join the bandwagon just to feed and drink at subsidised rate. Maybe you tried, but could it be that you failed to even qualify the UPSC, let alone the SSB? Is that the reason why you display this unique overflow of bile? But then the handing of the human excreta and refuse is your profession and your expertise. And so you must have taken your being rejected in your stride.

It is so good of you to state that don't have the habit of mental masturbation and frantically ejaculating. Great! Good that you do it actually in the physically way. The scientific papers indicate that physical masturbation and ejaculation is a great stress buster. Even though you are adept and an expert at it, how is it that you are indicating an overdose of stress. May I as a concerned citizen, advise you to increase the frequency of your masturbation and ejaculation ecstasy? It might help.

You were on this forum as Blade and you lost your password? Am I to understand I am to remember that? Sorry, your Highness, I did not know that you are the new Queen of England.

It is fine that you lost your password, but why display that you have in the bargain lost your mental balance? That is real unfortunate a commentary that a lost password is the dose for lost sanity.


Your question is incomplete and vague just like you are. Unless you mention the kind of war that has to be fought and the objective of war the necessary stockpile can not be determined.What is logistic supply mechanism ? really ? With a bit of goggling any Dickhead can pick a number of good accounts for this. Wiki has given a brief and systematic description about the logistic mechanism along with hundreds of pages in Bharat-rakshak. Why wasting time on easily available material ? Are you basically trying to check my browsing skills ? you are a smart boy Mr. Moron Ray.
How intelligent you are.

Unless you do not know what war is to be fought you cannot indicate the stock of ammunition.

But I thought you were raving that we don't have adequate stock and it is silly excuse of the Army every time.

Now since you are aware that it is a silly excuse, could you educate us since you know it all, including the place, time and intensity of a war with China and Pakistan.

No, I am not checking on your browsing skill. I am merely wondering about your knowledge to interact in this forum with some credibility and sanity. That is all.

Well let me assure you that I am no warrior. So you need not loose your sleep over my posts. But Pakistani BAT might be a very real threat to your neck. So please be careful.
Isn't that so obvious that you are no warrior or even credible in your observations? And you standing post? I was merely being magnanimous even though I know, cyberwarriors like you are mere fantasy men of humongous proportions.

No one is asking for a total capitulation of enemy and a territorial gain in any form. It is one of your pathetic attempts to deviate from the topic. If leaving four Indian peaks (including 5353) in Pakistani possession is not a debacle and inclusive then what would it be? Only after PLA split up India in several parts and you get your rations from PLA for cleaining their toilets ? Indian Army general forced the GOI to cover up army's inefficiency and the ramification. Only when the official accounts of 99 is declassified in some distant future we will know what exactly happened there. You are so true kargil wasn't a debacle , it was an act of treason led by the miscreants like Gen Deepak kapoor and his brigade of lap dancers comprised of immoral parasites like you who once the war was over ware all busy washing off their lingerie with the blood of gallant fighters and young officers of Indian Army. Puke and spit for people like you. Should be sent for eternal damnation with raging bulls in mating spree.
Four Indian peaks in Pakistan's possession? That's a new one.

I agree that we live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality. Reality seems to have given you the go by.

May I be good enough to tell you that Deepak Kapoor was nowhere involved with the Kargil Operations. Therefore, may I repeat we live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality. Reality seems to have given you the go by.?

Can we for once return to facts and not fly on the gossamer wings of fantasy and fiction of your rather fevered mind?


[quoe]My revelation about my Forbes IQ score was a bum spanking reply to your misdemeanor in the form of "Got it steve" but you simply don't get subtle points easily do ya ? Given your low IQ this is quiet expected but I am just wondering if the report of severe corruption in Indian army recruitment process is really this genuine that they even hired nonsense rascals like you !!! Good heavens. It is only possible for a scumbag of your caliber to draw an Utopian inference saying I am comparing Taliban and Indian army as institutions from "If fearlessness at the grass root level is the only mark of a combat force then Talibans are standing shoulder to shoulder with Indian army(If not Far above)." [/quote]

Your revelations of the Forbes IQ, if I may with all humility at my command say, were an index of your deep seated insecurity and nothing more.

Bum spanking?

Understandable! Toilet, faeces, urine and peering into posteriors in deep and insightful analysis is your world.

Oh yes I am a rascal. A rascal that provide you the blanket of security to have a good night snooze as I stood post at the frontier. It could not get better to have such a wonderful and grateful citizen as you.

What the hell the IA's relief operations have gotta do with the corrupted and coward generals and top level officers and their naked display of shamelessness ? It is the rotten potatoes like Gen Deepak kapoor who represents the Indian army. Oh it is one more trick out of your box to bypass the main line. Well then leave it at that . you win Mr. Moron
What has the relief operations in Kashmir got to do with coward, corrupted generals? Well, if what you say was right, then there would be no relief but corruption. QED.

Therefore, don't you think you have been moronic yourself? And that too, all through?

The very point of my post was not to generalize anything to begin with but which is too hard for you to get into you dry thick skull. You ware entitled to challenge me for a source rather than constantly focusing on my pajama, pant and material analysis of my feet and DNA structure.
May I suggest most politely, that please go through your diatribe and see who is constantly focusing on my pajama, pant and material analysis of my feet and DNA structure and extolling his professional expertise in faecal waste, urine and the like.

Ex DG has little to do with this directly but after politicians bureaucrats and police men and other law enforcement agencies now it is the term for Indian armed forces to come up with a new standard of institutionalized corruption in India. Time is not far when chiefs and top officers of armed forces will be rushing to medical facilities with a complain of hepatitis in their heart. BSF has already set an exemplary standard in establishing a wide and deep web with different underworld agencies those are promoting drugs and smuggling in India. It is only matter of time the Indian Army join them as equal partners.
You deserve pity.

How convoluted a rigmarole you spin to link the dots of your fevered, flippant and disjointed mind.

Come on honey why don't you enlighten me with your Ray of knowledge, teach me something please. What better job do you have with a healthy bank balance made of tax payers money? looking at the number of posts made by you, i sincerely envy your richness in leisure time.
Honey?

Forgive me I am not of your rather odd (at least for me) sexual orientation. I would shudder to be 'honey' to any man, that is of course, taking you to be a man.

India even allow hurriyat leaders to hold seminars Delhi and spew venom against India. That is the flexibility of our democracy.So what do you consider Army to be ? Something over and above all criticisms ,scrutiny and the civil society of India? So If you think just because you are a moderator you have the right to gag me for going against your long standing beliefs then you are about to face a very hard time here from now on. Since I really do not care who you are as long as I am not indulging into any personal attack and ready to substantiate my claims with enough material(Even though it is not an absolutely necessary thing owing to the fact that no one cares to show a credible link to criticize a politician or a civilian, So you like me or my comments or not you have to bare with me) . So why don't you just shove up those big boss dialogues of yours and spare the band width.
Again you assume things.


Have you been gagged? If you had been so, you would have been hoofed out by now. So, why this fevered fear?

Let your guilt not speak.

I am sure you have no conscience, so why worry?

To be fair, you have given no material to all your rants?

If generalities and your fevered imagination is 'material', then God help this Forum and Hindustan!
 
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ninja85

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2013
Messages
830
Likes
353
If India want another 1962 war, apply "forward policy" could be a good start.

PS. personally I would like to see that happens.
you not gonna like see me angry.
 

brational

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
1,223
Likes
2,644
Country flag
"The Indian infantry man is poorly trained and equipped, high on bravado and low on equipment and training. I would rate him 3/10 ---- LT-Gen(retd)H.S Panag

I am a common man. but I will stir the smooth sands of status quoism, monotony & apathy." --- What a balony!!! when the sole moto of your life is bypassing the duties like coward while guzzling the public money.It is a few drops of foul smelling virus infested piss like you that has contaminated the entire armed forces of India.

Trust me I was not threatening you since Pakistani and Chinese armies are enough to bring about an acid rain behind your bum to create tiny holes into your phoreign g string imported from cut money who knows from which deal :). Pakistanis are at least genuine to whatever twisted faith they have. They at least got the stuff in their sack to face a several times bigger opponent for what ever nonsense reason that might be. Where as the elite army babus like you still undergoing vertebral surgery to stand up right before China . People like you are covering their tainted smug face by hijacking the extreme sacrifices made by ordinary soldiers.
Just think of a Pakistan that is about half the size of India !!! Pardon me if my gedenken experiment is about to soil your seat. Perhaps By now there wouldn't have been a state called India.

Everybody knows that ammunition stock of Indian army is not optimum ( and justifiably so) but when ever there is a need for a proactive measure (Even in 71 war army tried the same trick but luckily didn't succeed) , showing this shortage of ammunition boogie to avoid duties like the king of thugs Gen Deepak kapoor ( another black sheep, the Big daddy of corruption ) is only the sign of a traitor.By the way perhaps you have forgotten that most of us can't even afford daily essentials just to feed people like you in IA and and keep them drunk at a subsidized rate, so forget about an Ac. As far as military matter is concerned I know and understand all that can be by a civilian by being an avid reader for the past 15 years of hundreds of journals, blogs and forums but because I don't have the habit of mental masturbation and frantically ejaculating all over the public forums with 40 thousand odd posts, you are certainly The boss in that regard. I joined this forum in late 2009 with an ID BLADE but having lost the password rejoined with a new id. I prefer to read more, than being an overly talkative garrulous chatter box like you.

Your question is incomplete and vague just like you are. Unless you mention the kind of war that has to be fought and the objective of war the necessary stockpile can not be determined.What is logistic supply mechanism ? really ? With a bit of goggling any Dickhead can pick a number of good accounts for this. Wiki has given a brief and systematic description about the logistic mechanism along with hundreds of pages in Bharat-rakshak. Why wasting time on easily available material ? Are you basically trying to check my browsing skills ? you are a smart boy Mr. Moron Ray.

Well let me assure you that I am no warrior. So you need not loose your sleep over my posts. But Pakistani BAT might be a very real threat to your neck. So please be careful.

No one is asking for a total capitulation of enemy and a territorial gain in any form. It is one of your pathetic attempts to deviate from the topic. If leaving four Indian peaks (including 5353) in Pakistani possession is not a debacle and inclusive then what would it be? Only after PLA split up India in several parts and you get your rations from PLA for cleaining their toilets ? Indian Army general forced the GOI to cover up army's inefficiency and the ramification. Only when the official accounts of 99 is declassified in some distant future we will know what exactly happened there. You are so true kargil wasn't a debacle , it was an act of treason led by the miscreants like Gen Deepak kapoor and his brigade of lap dancers comprised of immoral parasites like you who once the war was over ware all busy washing off their lingerie with the blood of gallant fighters and young officers of Indian Army. Puke and spit for people like you. Should be sent for eternal damnation with raging bulls in mating spree.

My revelation about my Forbes IQ score was a bum spanking reply to your misdemeanor in the form of "Got it steve" but you simply don't get subtle points easily do ya ? Given your low IQ this is quiet expected but I am just wondering if the report of severe corruption in Indian army recruitment process is really this genuine that they even hired nonsense rascals like you !!! Good heavens. It is only possible for a scumbag of your caliber to draw an Utopian inference saying I am comparing Taliban and Indian army as institutions from "If fearlessness at the grass root level is the only mark of a combat force then Talibans are standing shoulder to shoulder with Indian army(If not Far above)."

What the hell the IA's relief operations have gotta do with the corrupted and coward generals and top level officers and their naked display of shamelessness ? It is the rotten potatoes like Gen Deepak kapoor who represents the Indian army. Oh it is one more trick out of your box to bypass the main line. Well then leave it at that . you win Mr. Moron

The very point of my post was not to generalize anything to begin with but which is too hard for you to get into you dry thick skull. You ware entitled to challenge me for a source rather than constantly focusing on my pajama, pant and material analysis of my feet and DNA structure.

Ex DG has little to do with this directly but after politicians bureaucrats and police men and other law enforcement agencies now it is the term for Indian armed forces to come up with a new standard of institutionalized corruption in India. Time is not far when chiefs and top officers of armed forces will be rushing to medical facilities with a complain of hepatitis in their heart. BSF has already set an exemplary standard in establishing a wide and deep web with different underworld agencies those are promoting drugs and smuggling in India. It is only matter of time the Indian Army join them as equal partners.

Come on honey why don't you enlighten me with your Ray of knowledge, teach me something please. What better job do you have with a healthy bank balance made of tax payers money? looking at the number of posts made by you, i sincerely envy your richness in leisure time.

India even allow hurriyat leaders to hold seminars Delhi and spew venom against India. That is the flexibility of our democracy.So what do you consider Army to be ? Something over and above all criticisms ,scrutiny and the civil society of India? So If you think just because you are a moderator you have the right to gag me for going against your long standing beliefs then you are about to face a very hard time here from now on. Since I really do not care who you are as long as I am not indulging into any personal attack and ready to substantiate my claims with enough material(Even though it is not an absolutely necessary thing owing to the fact that no one cares to show a credible link to criticize a politician or a civilian, So you like me or my comments or not you have to bare with me) . So why don't you just shove up those big boss dialogues of yours and spare the band width.
Pathetic language.. You can not use foul language against any one. Generally people with poor mental state tend to do so when they find it is difficult to convince others. Hope you are not one of them. Try to be fair when in a discussion and pay respect to the members, otherwise stay away from posting/ranting.
 

Ashutosh Lokhande

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
1,285
Likes
568
Sir,

How would China react in case of Indo-PAK war.If Pakistan ask for your help militarily ,facing danger of being overrun by Indian forces.And by militarily I mean direct intervention.:namaste:
Similar thing happend in 71 war.

The regional situation was already complex, the two super powers, Soviet Union and USA were supporting India and Pakistan respectively. India signed a treaty of mutual assistance with the Soviet Union in August, 1971. This treaty ensured that in need Soviet Union would help India and stop United State's intervention, and deter China from opening a second conflict on India's northern border.- China was friendly to Pakistan and fought a war with India in 1962. Pakistan was the broker between United States and People's Republic of China at that time, so was important for both.


Source :- http://archive.thedailystar.net/beta2/news/us-fleet-in-bay-of-bengal-a-game-of-deception/


You can expect similar happening if in future theres a enevitable threat to india of war on two fronts.
 
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Ripples

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2012
Messages
64
Likes
26
Pathetic language.. You can not use foul language against any one. Generally people with poor mental state tend to do so when they find it is difficult to convince others. Hope you are not one of them. Try to be fair when in a discussion and pay respect to the members, otherwise stay away from posting/ranting.
I dislike being personal in any kind of discussion let alone being foul . If you check my little number of posts in last two years you will hardly find anything that is even remotely as ugly and terrible as this post rather I never posted a single post addressing a person in spite of what ever disagreement I might have had with him. I always tried to be on topic and objective. If you care to check what has began this mud slinging you will realize what I mean. Having said that no amount of provocation can justify whatever I am writing here today. But again I am not perfect and I don't regret my imperfection.
By the way I wasn't trying to convince Ray of anything I was just trying to give him a taste of his own medicine of unprovoked personal attack and I always love to do so with an elevated intensity. Therefore his recent post will not go unanswered. Thank you for your suggestion and I am not yet considering your remark of "posting/ranting" as a personal attack . If you can't stand me just report to moderators. Thank you
 
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