China illegally using French engines in Z-10

Discussion in 'China' started by Armand2REP, Mar 25, 2018.

  1. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    So we have the WZ-16, ie Ardiden 3C, that is intended for Chinese heavy civilian helicopters like AC352

    [​IMG]

    https://www.safran-helicopter-engines.com/engine-partnerships/partnerships/wz16/wz16

    But China is using it in the Z-10 attack helicopter because the WZ-9 was a joke.

    [​IMG]

    Numerous engines were used in during prototype design. From Canadian Pratt & Whitney PT6C-67C, Russian Klimov VK-2500 from Mi-17 and Ukranian Motor-Sich TV3-117. With Russian and Ukrainian help, the Chinese manufacturers have managed to develop their own engine WZ-9. However, this engine (1,350 hp) has proven to be too weak for the 5.5/7 ton helicopter. For example, AH-64 with its mass of 5/8 tons uses an engine whose strength is 1,690-2,100 hp. With the aid of a French manufacturer “Turbomeca”, a new engine was built, designated WZ-16. The new engine has horsepower of 2.000 and will allow carrying of 16 POVR HJ-10.

    Read more https://stateofguns.com/caic-z-10-attack-helicopter-1454/

    [​IMG]

    This is even confirmed by Chinese favourite source Henri at EP.

    Le WZ-16 qui va passer un jalon important en 2016 devrait venir soulager cette manque en puissance. Ce moteur franco-chinois a une puissance entre 1 200 et 1 500kW.

    http://www.eastpendulum.com/1000ᵉ-helicoptere-armee-de-terre-chinoise

    Why does this matter? China is embargoed from using any French products that wasn't ordered prior to 1986 for a military application. It is not well known, but China still imports an annual quarter billion USD of French military products based on pre-1986 licenses that they still import to this day. Yes it is dated technology but China has no domestic options as they have failed to produce even 80s clones properly.
     
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  3. lcafanboy

    lcafanboy Senior Member Senior Member

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  4. Willy3

    Willy3 Regular Member

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    Almighty CCP dontd steal from others, it's just borrowing without telling
     
  5. Yggdrasil

    Yggdrasil Regular Member

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    Fake rice, fake meat, fake engines.

    But unlike rice and meat, your engines actually have to work.
     
  6. shiphone

    shiphone Senior Member Senior Member

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    lol...such laughable reports always could make some(the same batch) idiots climax here.

    is AH-64 8 tons class Gunship?....
    when TV3-117 was on Z-10?
    French Engine on Z-10? which one? and when it was on Z-10?
     
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  7. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Loaded weight of Apache is 8 tonnes.

    The Z-10 was designed with a universal engine bay and the first five prototypes were powered by two Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-76C turboshafts. The United Technologies company and subsidiary Hamilton Sundstrand were together fined $75 million in June 2012 for violating U.S. arms export controls by earlier providing 10 PT6Cs and associated Fadec software to China. The Z-10 has also been powered by the Russian Klimov VK2500 and Ukrainian Motor Sich TV3-117. The latter appears to be installed in current-production aircraft, and Motor Sich is reportedly assisting in the development of the indigenous WZ9 turboshaft that is ultimately intended to power the Z-10.

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...als-involvement-chinas-z-10-attack-helicopter

    武直-10试用过俄罗斯VK-2500、乌克兰TV3-117等,最终量产使用的是国产涡轴-9C,但功率仅有1000千瓦上下,动力明显不足,导致现有性能比设计性能有明显下降。

    http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/china/2016-04-04/doc-ifxqxcnr5264915.shtml

    That would be the WZ-16...

    与中国合作的型号为WZ16(涡轴16),用于WZ-10武装直升机。

    http://wemedia.ifeng.com/31270660/wemedia.shtml
     
  8. shiphone

    shiphone Senior Member Senior Member

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    LOL....the famous idiot never disappoint us...

    ----------------------
    1. AH-64 is a 10 tons class Attack Helicopter (Max taking off weight)...Z-10 is a 6 tons class one (with the same standard : Max taking off weight)

    2. those stupid news report about so called V-2500,TV3-117, WZ-16 on Z10 are not from any reliable source , actually by the so called 'Personal Media' which were criticized years ago...

    show us any Z-10 pix with V2500/TV3-117/WZ-16?...

    the engines ever on Z-10 prototype : PT6C-67C and WZ-9, the future: improved WZ-9(X,H...)..
    WZ-16 is for Z-15/EC-175 project.

    3. the heavier class Gunship for Army Aviation is right on the way... it will be at the same around 10 tons class of AH-64 , powered by WZ-10 which just entered small batch production in 2017. we will see it in the near future...lol

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Mikesingh

    Mikesingh Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Chinese have flopped badly in engine technology. Whatever they have is either dated stuff or engines procured from Russia. And even efforts to try and clone them have proved futile.
     
  10. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    does India have the ability to build capable helicopter engine on its own? if it does, we can carry on with this discussion.
     
  11. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    I have never seen a helicopter weight class derived from its max take-off weight. Maybe that is how you do it in China but it is classed by the mean weight, or its loaded weight.

    [​IMG]

    If you have something that refutes it feel free to post up.

    [​IMG]

    Note the improved air intakes on models tested in Pakistan.

    [​IMG]

    Apparently AVIC has been advertising WZ-16 for Z-10 since the 2013 China Helicopter Exposition

    Z-10 Fierce Thunderbolt Changhe 2003 2x WZ-9 or WZ-16 100 of 400 built Indigenous heavy attack helicopter

    https://vtol.org/avicopter-rotorcraft

    And has always planned it for export.

    https://quwa.org/2016/03/23/pakistan-select-caic-z-10-attack-helicopter/

    What is that? A Black Hawk clone?
     
  12. shiphone

    shiphone Senior Member Senior Member

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    LOL...the idiot should have a study about the development timeline of WZ-16 engine project first...
    and the status of now....and then you can make up some more vivid lie here.

    the maiden flight of WZ-16 on Z-15 in Dec 2016

    [​IMG]

    --------------------

    since you claim/ belive so called 'V-2500,TV3-117, WZ-16 on Z10', then you show the pix about it ...

    you claim, your proof.

    -------------------

    and that idiot is always the laughing stock of this forum....lol...
    even with general classification ,AH-64 is a Heavy Gunship , and Z-10 is in Medium Catalog with
    relevant class engines.

    http://www.airbus.com/helicopters.html

    airbus copter- EC-175/H-175... 7.5 ton MTOW

    QQ截图20180326163201.jpg

    airbus copter- EC-160/H-160...around 6 ton MTOW

    QQ截图20180326164012.jpg

    so is H-120, H-135...etc
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  13. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Your reading comprehension is seriously lacking. Read the title of the thread... it says Z-10, not Z-15.

    I already posted multiple sources confirming it. You are free to refute them with counter sources of your own.

    It was already established Apache is a heavier helicopter than the Z-10... do you want a cookie?

    [​IMG]
     
  14. lcafanboy

    lcafanboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    46_PPara_SHAKTI_big.jpg
    Shakti engines 2 variants. Although developed by HAL- Safran JV with co-ownership of IPR it's much better than shitty dangerous copies as life of pilots are involved. We can manufacture as many as we want and are original, not fake & dangerous.
     
  15. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    the Chinese WZ16 engine which allegedly is mounted on Z-10 is also jointly developed by China and France, how do you decide which one is better?
     
  16. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    armand
    mocking china can not stop china advance.
    you once mocked jf17,then mocked j10,then laughed at j15,then j20, z10/20.
    now it is turn for z16.

    do you really want to keep on,until chinese star~destroyer appears?
     
  17. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    How good is any of it? The only thing you sold was a squadron of jf17 cheaper than you can buy a trainer. Even with that you have to split it with Pakistan. You are buying Su-35s and even ordering more despite claims of having 5th generation aircraft. I can laugh all day at that. You can't even develop helicopter engines without a license. You are totally dependent on others. lol again
     
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  18. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    From Nuclear reactors to engine parts France is helping China in almost every critical technology sphere.

    They will only admit taking help from others openly when they will evolve out of their Civilizational survival uncertainties.

    Just 3-4 decades of growth is still not enough to make them dignified in their prosperity, leave alone openness.
     
  19. lcafanboy

    lcafanboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    There's a difference between doing it legally and doing it illegally. India has proper jv in place hal-Safran aero engines. The jv holds IPR pay proper royalty payments and Safran providing proper support for it. Further higher thrust engines are being tested for medium helicopters.

    Also engines which China is using is from 1980s technology while India is getting latest ones which makes it better.

    All these things won't go into 50 cent brain. China has habit of copying and thieving on other's IPR. In short Chinese and China as a nation are thieves and robbers nothing more than that with she-xi Winnie the pooh being gang leader for life.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018

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