China and India should and will be friends

LurkerBaba

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Ray said:
As far as Pakistan is concerned it has historically been a 'client state' and sold to the highest bidder.

The US currently has won the bid and China is a mere second!!
:happy_8:

Arabs got a bit of it too, they managed to get into the board of directors
 

amoy

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No Smoking, pls read my quotation from Mencius and u may get some clues

4. 'If a prince have not about his court families attached to the laws and worthy counsellors, and if abroad there are not hostile States or other external calamities, his kingdom will generally come to ruin.

5. 'From these things we see how life springs from sorrow and calamity, and death from ease and pleasure.'
and Chinese -

入则无法家拂士,出则无敌国外患者,国恒亡,然后知生于忧患,而死于安乐也。 - 孟子
 

johnee

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:happy_8:

Arabs got a bit of it too, they managed to get into the board of directors
UK also owns a bit of pie-kistan. All the exiled rulers of Pakistan end up there. And we cannot forget its the UK that gave birth to Pakistan and later gave it to US who adopted it.
 

Iamanidiot

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Ohimalaya i think the US doesn't have hostile neighbours in its immediate neighbourhood that allows it to do power projection.Your quotation doesn't work in the modern context
 

pankaj nema

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The Chinese understand only one language POWER
So they normalised their relations with Russia and US because they were too powerful for China

Therefore for the next 10 years China will act " hard to please " .When our GDP crosses 3 trillion dollars they will realise the futility of enmity with India and might even dump Pakistan
 

kickok1975

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The Chinese understand only one language POWER
So they normalised their relations with Russia and US because they were too powerful for China

Therefore for the next 10 years China will act " hard to please " .When our GDP crosses 3 trillion dollars they will realise the futility of enmity with India and might even dump Pakistan
Sir, China recognize the importance of India even today, with India's GDP over 1 trillion and China' over 5 trillion. What makes you think China will think differently in next 10 years when India's GDP over 3 trillion and China over 10 trillion? We want to have normalized relationship with every country, especially India, not only Russia and US.

Second, I don't think China will ever "Dump" Pakistan, China will gradually withdraw her military support to Pakistan if India and Pakistan have a better relationship. You hold the key on your future and with Pakistan, not China, and more Indian people will realize it.

As to "China only understand Power", tell me which country don't understand it. A couple Indian friends here even wrote post that India should pretend to be China's friend and strike her when China is weak. That understands of power.
 

chex3009

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Second, I don't think China will ever "Dump" Pakistan, China will gradually withdraw her military support to Pakistan if India and Pakistan have a better relationship. You hold the key on your future and with Pakistan, not China, and more Indian people will realize it.
But in first place why is China openly backing Pakistan militarily when the world knows that the Pakistan is the one and only source of terrorism which is seen world wide, infact India was one of the very first victims of this menace. When the Chinese face militancy by the Uighurs in the East Turkestan, they rather take a very tough stand and send a very hard message to Pakistanis, but when it comes to India, they have never acknowledged the fact that Pakistan is the source of menace in India too. This very stance of the Chinese government makes one think that the Chinese are secretly supporting Pakistan's activity in the Kashmir region. Withdrawal of military support to Pakistan would improve Indo-China relations a hell of a lot. This would cut the trust deficit that exists now and would then help us both to peacefully resolve our outstanding issues then. We are not supporting any country militarily which has any face-off with China.
 

arya

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Sir, China recognize the importance of India even today, with India's GDP over 1 trillion and China' over 5 trillion. What makes you think China will think differently in next 10 years when India's GDP over 3 trillion and China over 10 trillion? We want to have normalized relationship with every country, especially India, not only Russia and US.

Second, I don't think China will ever "Dump" Pakistan, China will gradually withdraw her military support to Pakistan if India and Pakistan have a better relationship. You hold the key on your future and with Pakistan, not China, and more Indian people will realize it.

As to "China only understand Power", tell me which country don't understand it. A couple Indian friends here even wrote post that India should pretend to be China's friend and strike her when China is weak. That understands of power.


let see what happen in future but one thing china is using Pakistan against india and nothing else India can do the same by japan ,Vietnam , Korea

just game nothing else
 

icecoolben

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As an average Indian, I consider any chinese a fellow human who works to get his ends meet.i love Kung Fu, Shouin, and jackie chan & jet Li movies. But Geopolitically its another matter.
Those who control tibet control the waterS of India, Thailand etc. Karkoram pass gives China access to south asia,XInxiang access to the ancient silk road that connects Central asia and Middle east. India has control of sea lanes. Since, we cannot count on Russia to balance china militarily, politically and economically anymore, especially after USSR demise. We needed to go to Europe and USA for strategic partnerships.
I remember an article in 1994 that China was actally looking toward joining India in the LCA programme since it too wanted to replace mig-21 based fighters. but after Deng stepped down hardline attitude of Hu Jintao viewed india through the security lens, thus J-17 with pakistan, Missile technology whose pace accelerated. then we come to US-India relationship, only after which China took India seriously. As china plays hardball India draws closer to US, atleast if Chinese govt was indifferent to india's rise the "enemy" word won't rise, but frequent back-tracking, the nuclear deal spoil sport. Presently USA is one up with the UNSC permanent member support. actually it should have been to two up, but obama early on squandered away the benefits of nuclear deal of Bush administration by completely ignoring India early on while eagerly courting China e.g G-2.
Pakistan plays the China card too well against India, which gives Indian Warmongerers legitimacy to draw attention to their cause of "Two-front war". Plus there will always be battle for resorces.
China needs to give-up the idea of pakistan being its Israel, Israel has been nothing more than pain in the ass of US lately. And Pakistan bases terror groups have sleeper cells even with-in china. its time China stopped looking at India through the Lens of Pakistan in terms of security.
 

kickok1975

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But in first place why is China openly backing Pakistan militarily when the world knows that the Pakistan is the one and only source of terrorism which is seen world wide, infact India was one of the very first victims of this menace. When the Chinese face militancy by the Uighurs in the East Turkestan, they rather take a very tough stand and send a very hard message to Pakistanis, but when it comes to India, they have never acknowledged the fact that Pakistan is the source of menace in India too. This very stance of the Chinese government makes one think that the Chinese are secretly supporting Pakistan's activity in the Kashmir region. Withdrawal of military support to Pakistan would improve Indo-China relations a hell of a lot. This would cut the trust deficit that exists now and would then help us both to peacefully resolve our outstanding issues then. We are not supporting any country militarily which has any face-off with China.
China's military support to Pakistan is a result in Pakistan's fear of India. As well as India feel threaten by Pakistan; Pakistan also feels great threat from India, maybe even more than India.

India is a country growing fast and much more powerful today than Pakistan. However, India doesn't have a normal relationship with Pakistan and both countries were at the edge of war from time to time. Pakistan can't match India but has to try at least balance India a little bit in Military. That's why when India has Nukes, Pakistan need it too. A powerful India in all scales could easily defeat Pakistan if such hostile relationship doesn't change.

So Pakistan needs help. USA is not trustworthy and only China can provide what she needs. Due to years of friendship and Pakistan's strategic location, China finds it's hard to resist Pakistan's demand. China can't imagine a failed Pakistan would be look like and the consequence to China, most likely won't be good. So China has no choice but to support Pakistan even that means to make India very unhappy. So you see the key here, a bad Indo-Pak relationship drives us all crazy. Since both countries have Nukes now, a full scale war is unlikely to happen. It's time to repair relationship.

As for terrorist attack to India, It's bad and China always condemns it and even called India leader to show sympathy and condolences. However, China's not mentioning Pakistan is troubling Indian. First Pakistan government never admits they are behind these attacks. Second it's an unfortunate truth that China, even US don't openly condemn Pakistan. The good news is such terrorist attack becomes less happen recently and will continuing decline if Indo-Pak relationship warm up.

So what should we do? Remember all the hates and revenge one day, or move on build a more peaceful world for future generations?
 

Ray

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China's military support to Pakistan is a result in Pakistan's fear of India. As well as India feel threaten by Pakistan; Pakistan also feels great threat from India, maybe even more than India.

India is a country growing fast and much more powerful today than Pakistan. However, India doesn't have a normal relationship with Pakistan and both countries were at the edge of war from time to time. Pakistan can't match India but has to try at least balance India a little bit in Military. That's why when India has Nukes, Pakistan need it too. A powerful India in all scales could easily defeat Pakistan if such hostile relationship doesn't change.

So Pakistan needs help. USA is not trustworthy and only China can provide what she needs. Due to years of friendship and Pakistan's strategic location, China finds it's hard to resist Pakistan's demand. China can't imagine a failed Pakistan would be look like and the consequence to China, most likely won't be good. So China has no choice but to support Pakistan even that means to make India very unhappy. So you see the key here, a bad Indo-Pak relationship drives us all crazy. Since both countries have Nukes now, a full scale war is unlikely to happen. It's time to repair relationship.

As for terrorist attack to India, It's bad and China always condemns it and even called India leader to show sympathy and condolences. However, China's not mentioning Pakistan is troubling Indian. First Pakistan government never admits they are behind these attacks. Second it's an unfortunate truth that China, even US don't openly condemn Pakistan. The good news is such terrorist attack becomes less happen recently and will continuing decline if Indo-Pak relationship warm up.

So what should we do? Remember all the hates and revenge one day, or move on build a more peaceful world for future generations?
In other words you are justifying that just because Pakistan is a laggard state and because they fear India, China has to help Pakistan.

Odd logic really!

In other words, China is a traffic policeman, regulating traffic, and in this case, regulating the environment of South Asia!

Even a traffic policeman has to be appointed by the Govt before he can assume his duties.

Who has given the duty to China to be the South Asia's traffic Policeman?

Who says the US is an unreliable ally of Pakistan? Pakistan has been declared as the Non NATO ally, the privilege not even India has. So?

Pakistan is milking the US of money, military aid and everything that it requires.

And you say that the US is unreliable?

At the same time, Pakistan is not reliable. They are biting the hand that feeds by bombing the military supplies to NATO and US in Afghanistan.

Be careful. Once it stabilises, the very friend Pakistan, will bite you with a thousand cuts, if you don't pay up and maintain them. They are great a blackmail. Ask the US. And so, Pakistan will also bite you - in your soft area - East Turkmenistan!
 
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kickok1975

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let see what happen in future but one thing china is using Pakistan against india and nothing else India can do the same by japan ,Vietnam , Korea

just game nothing else
Pakistan is not paw of China. China never signed any treaty with Pakistan as to defend her or unconditionally support her. Pakistan is an independent country and her people will decide the country's fate.

China doesn't want to use Pakistan to against India because it's neither realistic nor doable. India is our neighbor sharing 2800 miles of border. India's economy is booming and is a large market for Chinese goods. China imported lots of stuffs including iron ore from India too. China share more common interest with India than differences. I never heard any statement to attack India and get our land back by force even China never accept so called McMahon line. Chinese leader is smart enough to know which is important and which not. Indian people should also be wise enough to judge what's in their best interest.
 

The Messiah

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Tell me kickok1975 what sign of friendship has china shown to us in the recent past ?

I have nothing against chinese people and would welcome genuine friendship and cooperation among both countries as it will benefit both but in order to achieve that both sides need to be willing to become friends. so what has your govt done to encourage friendship ?
 

White Clouds

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India must try to main the pretense of friendship with China,as will China.we must however not let go amiss any opportunity that may present itself,whenever-however, to undermine that country.
I find you're statements preposterous, shameful, cowardly and shortsighted as a fellow Indian. With views like this we as a country can never advance and how shameful it is that you are saying such things when a Chinese person has made a thread for peace and stability. Uttery shameful !

China is our neighbor we both should work together to achieve a greater goal of maintaining Asia so as not to be played like tools from Western countries like US, UK, Germany, France etc. like they have played and destoyed Middle East. Why don't you understand western nations would like nothing more than a fighting weak India and China to advance their own interest. India and China has potential not only in terms of economic but also geographic and millitary position to advance our countries throughout the world. Yes I am against China's stapled visa policy and hold views on our altercations with China on Arunachal Pradesh but we (both countries) should take steps pro-actively to solve our difference by taking positive steps which are mutually beneficial.

If we keep on trying to undermine each other it will only benefit western countries and not us. I hope you have not forgotten the "Divide and Rule" policy of west. The same thing applies here.
 

pmaitra

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I find you're statements preposterous, shameful, cowardly and shortsighted as a fellow Indian. With views like this we as a country can never advance and how shameful it is that you are saying such things when a Chinese person has made a thread for peace and stability. Uttery shameful !

China is our neighbor we both should work together to achieve a greater goal of maintaining Asia so as not to be played like tools from Western countries like US, UK, Germany, France etc. like they have played and destoyed Middle East. Why don't you understand western nations would like nothing more than a fighting weak India and China to advance their own interest. India and China has potential not only in terms of economic but also geographic and millitary position to advance our countries throughout the world. Yes I am against China's stapled visa policy and hold views on our altercations with China on Arunachal Pradesh but we (both countries) should take steps pro-actively to solve our difference by taking positive steps which are mutually beneficial.

If we keep on trying to undermine each other it will only benefit western countries and not us. I hope you have not forgotten the "Divide and Rule" policy of west. The same thing applies here.
Sir, with due respects to this Chinese gentleman who speaks of peace and friendship and to you as well, I beg to point out that this peace initiative has no concurrence with the official and practical positions of PRC. There is absolutely nothing shameful about planning and desiring the recovery of our very own territories that have been occupied by PRC. What PRC and this person is doing, considering them as one entity, is like slapping someone on his face and then offering him a candy! I am fully aware that this gentleman was probably not responsible for PRC's occupation of Indian territories, however, he is fully aware of the ground realities, in which backdrop he started this thread.

I am deeply disappointed by what you wrote; however, I do acknowledge your right to freedom of speech!
 

kickok1975

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In other words you are justifying that just because Pakistan is a laggard state and because they fear India, China has to help Pakistan.

Odd logic really!

In other words, China is a traffic policeman, regulating traffic, and in this case, regulating the environment of South Asia!

Even a traffic policeman has to be appointed by the Govt before he can assume his duties.

Who has given the duty to China to be the South Asia's traffic Policeman?

Who says the US is an unreliable ally of Pakistan? Pakistan has been declared as the Non NATO ally, the privilege not even India has. So?

Pakistan is milking the US of money, military aid and everything that it requires.

And you say that the US is unreliable?

At the same time, Pakistan is not reliable. They are biting the hand that feeds by bombing the military supplies to NATO and US in Afghanistan.

Be careful. Once it stabilises, the very friend Pakistan, will bite you with a thousand cuts, if you don't pay up and maintain them. They are great a blackmail. Ask the US. And so, Pakistan will also bite you - in your soft area - East Turkmenistan!
So what would you suggest China to do, Ray? Abandon Pakistan and let India deal with it? It would be wonderful if India could deal with Pakistan with warm hand, forgiveness than cold stone hate. But is it realistic now?

China support Pakistan to support herself. Everyone is worrying Pakistan becomes a terrorist state that no one can control. It's not imaginary it's increasing likely. Afghanistan is already called "Empire's tomb" where two supper powers were struggling. How about another Afghanistan several times bigger? Can India government handle it? Well Indian probably already treats Pakistan as terrorist state. Not so to China. To us Pakistan has legitimate government and we see friendship and kindness among many people. From them we just see normal human being like rest of us around the world. They don't want war; they just want to live in peace; most of them don't enjoy killing Indian either. Why not help them but instead drive them into the corner?

China is not policemen of South Asia. Neither do we want to nor are we capable of. Instead, we are depending on a peaceful South Asia so our fleet can pass through safely and our business can continue prosperous there. As most powerful nation in South Asia, it's India's responsibility to work with other surrounding nations to ensure a peaceful South Asia. India should take such initiative out of confidence, and optimistic about the future of South Asia.
 
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civfanatic

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Second, I don't think China will ever "Dump" Pakistan, China will gradually withdraw her military support to Pakistan if India and Pakistan have a better relationship. You hold the key on your future and with Pakistan, not China, and more Indian people will realize it.
Do not ever expect India and Pakistan to become friends. The chances of that are even lower than China than Japan becoming allies. There is too much historical enmity between us, plus the issue of Kashmir will remain for many more years. India has been ready long ago to accept the LOC as the de facto border in Kashmir, but it is Pakistan who refuses this and continues to train and send militants into Indian Kashmir. Over the years, Kashmir has become the lifeblood of the Pakistani state. Whenever their leaders are asked about any problems in Pakistan, their answers always revolve around two things: Kashmir and India. It has become more than an obsession for Pakistan; it has become the entire reason for their existence. Without the Kashmir dispute, I doubt Pakistan would be able to exist as a state. Its military would be undermined, its government will lose a priceless scapegoat, and the entire Pakistani population will realise the futility of the past 60 years.

I think it is very possible that China will dump Pakistan. Pakistan has turned out to be a bad investment for both China and the U.S. With the rising prominence of India on the global stage, and with mounting political instability (on the verge of civil war) in Pakistan, more and more countries are dumping Pakistan and courting India.

China's support to Pakistan has historically revolved around two points: 1) Allowing strategic access to the Arabian Sea via a direct land link from Xinjiang, bypassing the vulnerable Indian Ocean trade routes, and 2) arming Pakistan as a counterbalance to India.

In order for India and China to be "friends", India needs to make its intentions of friendship clear to China and open the borders to free trade, and China needs to be willing to accept India as a strategic partner in South Asia instead of Pakistan.
 

kickok1975

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Tell me kickok1975 what sign of friendship has china shown to us in the recent past ?

I have nothing against chinese people and would welcome genuine friendship and cooperation among both countries as it will benefit both but in order to achieve that both sides need to be willing to become friends. so what has your govt done to encourage friendship ?
Signs of friendship:
1. From Chinese elementary history book India is taught as one of the 4 oldest Civilization of the world with many inventions and great culture.

2. In China's middle school India was taught as a country like China suffering Western Colonialism recently but eventually won their Independence due to her brave people's relentless struggle. When I was in school, the 1962 war was not even mentioned.

3. "The Pilgrimage to the West" is most popular story told by generations about a famous Monk risk his life to India in order to get the Buddhism back to China, which profoundly changed China

4. China's main stream rarely mentions India as threat. Rather, they wrote a lot about India's fast development and existing social problems, and how China should learn from them and avoid some mistakes.

5. India's movie in China, although few, all demonstrate the best part of India. In the movie people are nice and beautiful, dancing and singing, full of love story. I've seen numerous comments from Chinese people who longing to visit India and how much they like India. "3 Idiots" by RAJKUMAR HIRANI is very popular in China recently.

6. China's leader is willing to improve relationship with India. Premier When will visit India soon and President who has said many times about the importance to maintain a good bilateral relationship.

So what would you expect Chinese people to think about India? Did India government do similar things like these? Do you still think Chinese people or her government hate India and want to slice India into pieces like someone said?
 
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no smoking

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Tell me kickok1975 what sign of friendship has china shown to us in the recent past ?

I have nothing against chinese people and would welcome genuine friendship and cooperation among both countries as it will benefit both but in order to achieve that both sides need to be willing to become friends. so what has your govt done to encourage friendship ?
So, in order to be india's friend, China needs to do following:
giving aska kin to india
give tibet independence
get india's permission for any movement in south asia
Terminate relationship with Pak.

But can I ask: what will india contribute to this relationship?

Hollow words? or making up some rumors like "how Nehru give UNSC seat to China"?
 

roma

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Is this topic realistic? Some people probably don't think so. China supports Indian's deadly enemy Pakistan that makes a lot of Indian angry.

The 1962 war's scar is still feeling painful even today. India's closer relationship with US makes China suspect a new geo-political containment is looming.

The Dalai Lama with his exiled government is still based in India, from where the Tibetan spiritual leader still post big influence to the most sensitive area of China, which makes Chinese leader nervous all the time. Let alone we have border issues and other problems.

Even with all these, I still think both countries have imperative reasons to see each other as friend and eventually become ally down the road. Here are 3 simple personal analysis to explain.

1. Indian and Chinese culture is not on collision road. On the contrary, we share a lot of common value such as family,

2. India and China will gain more by working together and lose more by rivary each other. ,

3. India and China are not enemies. In foreseeable future I can see a bumpy road ahead but we will eventually get there.

Interesting topic - cant agree wirth most of your conclusions

1st point - prc supports pak - that alone is a dead end to any kind of positive relationship .- if india were to support taiwan or vietnam overtly think of what prc reaction would be - so it's unequal and other than the politicians who have to play cool no one in india or nri can condone prc supporting pak

1962 war ? - who was it who was disatisfied with the boundary ? it was zhou enlai who was calling for a border change all the time while india was avoiding the topic ? another very unwarranted and unnecessarily agressive move by prc

dalai ? - that's prc who feels embarassed - as far as india goes its a non-issue he is on humanitarian asylum

cultures ? - basically nothing in common - most chinese feel superior to indians and would consider themselves closer to japanese and koreans rather than indian ...and all that aabout family values holds no glue bcos the japs and koreans are much stronger in those matters.

both can work together ? - prc govt sure doesnt think so - they've rebuffed every attempt by india to work together in any possible JV eg cputers as suggested by vajpayee and others.

not enemies ? what do you call it when one country claims 100,000 sq km of your nation ( arunachal) - plus another small state ( himachal ) plus bits and pieces of the border areas - a friend ?? - hardly

bumpy road ahead ? you gotta be kiddin - they are talking about another war around 2012-2015

sorry but indians and nri's better avoid being hypnotised a 2nd time - at best a no war pact could be negotiatied between the 2 countries , but my guess is that it wont be worth the paper it's written on !
 
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