China and India should and will be friends

[Virendra]

I would like to put some views here mate.

Friend, India was not "weak" that time;

India was much weaker than China militarily. Our border infrastructure was non existent, weaponry was meager than Chinese. Your society may have been having hard times and it aggravated because more than addressing that situation, your rulers then were hell bent on engaging India on a war front.

she has good relationship with two formidable superpowers in the world and both eagerly want to court India into their camp.

You're presently facts of 60s and overlaying the reasoning of 21st century. At that time the Americans and Russians were mere contest watchers at the war and there was no help to India whatsoever. Not even a seize fire to freeze the war, let alone any other help. You don't call those the symptoms of a strong alliance, do you?

Your then government was just implementing "Forward Policy" out of confidence of India's military and economy. "Driving Chinese out" is one of famous slogan of such policy and how can China consider it friendly.

I can say the same thing about your side with just a different term. We'll say you violated the border and you'll say we did it. So this kind of a rant is pointless, because both the countries never really accepted the LAC completely and never mutually agreed on any other border.

China, however, was very weak. We just lost millions of life (my grandpa included) due to Maozodong's devastating policy. Our economy was in depression and our people were living in starvation.Our relationship with Soviet Union is a free fall and USA officially treats China an enemy. The beloved Dalai Lama just escaped to India, from where he is building special force and working closely with CIA to return to Tibet. Tibet is in Chaos.

Like I said, militarily China was way ahead and again, the way that war went down leaves no further doubt of it. By the way we were not living in Bungalows then. The Govt. had to be on the roads to get money, clothes and other assistance for the war from the general public. Fund raising had to be done on a national level. It was a crisis for us.

How weak China and how strong India need to be to realize your dream, buddy?

Sane Indians have no dreams of snatching even an inch of anyone's land but their own. We will never cease to claim and attempt the ownership of what rightfully belongs to us. You're welcome to read our history of thousands of years. None of our Kingdoms ever indulged in any expansionist, imperialist or raiding activities on others territories. A brute law of nature - you don't go out, eventually others will come in. Happened to us so many times.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[civfanatic]

None of our Kingdoms ever indulged in any expansionist, imperialist or raiding activities on others territories.

Actually, this is not true. In general, Indian kingdoms kept to themselves, but there were a few notable exceptions.

 

[Virendra]

Thanks for the correction. I would be interesting to read about that exception.

 

[civfanatic]

Thanks for the correction. I would be interesting to read about that exception.

The Mauryas could also be an exception. But that depends on whether or not you consider Afghanistan to be a historical part of "Bharat".

 

[kickok1975]

Ok I want to ask Chinese members about their opinion about Pakistan (because at the end of the day Indians will continue to view China thorugh Pakistan)

What I'm understanding is their line of thinking goes like: "India big country with colonial ambitions" "Pakistan, good friend small country that must be defended" and of course this statement "Pakistan is a victim of terrorism !!!!!!"

Pakistan is a country troubled by radical Islamism just like other Islamic countries. However, Pakistan is probably the most wanted country by extremist to take over due to its location and population. Years of slow growth, corruption in government, constant terrorist attack and conflict with India dramatically slowed Pakistan's development, make Pakistan an unstable country. Most Pakistan people are living now in undesirable condition which makes them easy prey for radical Islamist

However, just like their India counterpart, most Pakistan people want to leave in a peaceful and prosperous way. I'm sure today's Pakistan government doesn't want to have war with India. The 2008 Mumbai attack made Pakistan government very nervous and took sweeping action to arrest terrorist is a good indication of such motivation. But Pakistan is complicated, there are so many terrorist groups even Bin Laden is arguably resides in remote Pakistan area where government has little control. India government should be smart enough to distinguish where the attack is coming from.

Although Indian can always suspect Pakistan government behind terrorist attack, I can assure you, the worst nightmare for India and Pakistan, and the best scenario for radical Islamism is India and Pakistan goes to war because of these attacks. Pakistan and India will become slaughter house and Pakistan's Nuclear weapon will undoubted fall into hand of terrorist and their sympathizer, not to mention how many people will convert to extremist. They can use it to attack India and other countries. That would be a nightmare for the world.

So the best way for India to approach Pakistan is direct dialogue in a self restraining way. India should tell Pakistan she won't tolerate attack supported by Pakistan government but have intention to improve bilateral relationship. Since India is a stronger nation in a better position, she should stop attempt to isolate Pakistan, undermine their economy because a poor, unstable Pakistan poses biggest threat to India but a stable and prosperous Pakistan will have less intention to provoke India. India and Pakistan should resume disputed territory negotiation. Compromise must be made and army need withdraw to reduce tension.
India's government should also promote business and culture exchange with Pakistan. Both people lived together in a same nation for thousands of years and I can't see why they can't live today.

India is stronger country and her people is peace loving. So I think India should be more proactive in action. It's good for Indo-Pak relationship and good for the world

 

[LurkerBaba]

Pakistan is a country troubled by radical Islamism just like other Islamic countries. However, Pakistan is probably the most wanted country by extremist to take over due to its location and population. Years of slow growth, corruption in government, constant terrorist attack and conflict with India dramatically slowed Pakistan's development, make Pakistan an unstable country. Most Pakistan people are living now in undesirable condition which makes them easy prey for radical Islamist

However, just like their India counterpart, most Pakistan people want to leave in a peaceful and prosperous way. I'm sure today's Pakistan government doesn't want to have war with India. The 2008 Mumbai attack made Pakistan government very nervous and took sweeping action to arrest terrorist is a good indication of such motivation. But Pakistan is complicated, there are so many terrorist groups even Bin Laden is arguably resides in remote Pakistan area where government has little control. India government should smart enough to distinguish where the attack is coming from.

Although Indian can always suspect Pakistan government behind terrorist attack, I can assure you, the worst nightmare for India and Pakistan, and the best scenario for radical Islamism is India and Pakistan goes to war because of these attacks. Pakistan and India will become slaughter house and Pakistan's Nuclear weapon will undoubted fall into hand of terrorist and their sympathizer, not to mention how many people will convert to extremist. They can use it to attack India and other countries. That would be a nightmare for the world.

So the best way for India to approach Pakistan is direct dialogue in a self restraining way. India should tell Pakistan she won't tolerate attack supported by Pakistan government but have intention to improve bilateral relationship. Since India is a stronger nation in a better position, she should stop attempt to isolate Pakistan, undermine their economy because a poor, unstable Pakistan poses biggest threat to India but a stable and prosperous Pakistan will have less intention to provoke India. India and Pakistan should resume disputed territory negotiation. Compromise must be made and army need withdraw to reduce tension.
India's government should also promote business and culture exchange with Pakistan. Both people lived together in a same nation for thousands of years and I can't see why they can't live today.

All above is based on India is stronger country and her people is peace loving. So India should be more proactive in action. It's good for Indo-Pak relationship and good for the world

Here is the Indian view (my view atleast)

The 2008 Mumbai attack made Pakistan government very nervous and took sweeping action to arrest terrorist is a good indication of such motivation.

This never happened !!!! The guy is scot free and giving hate speeches against India!! Infact you don't know about the 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament. Pakistan gov didn't do zilch. Or the time when Pakistan backed terrorists hijacked a plane (IC 814) ? !

All above is based on India is stronger country

And to engage a bigger and stronger country, Pakistan took to asymmetric warfare (terrorism)

Pakistan is a country troubled by radical Islamism just like other Islamic countries. However, Pakistan is probably the most wanted country by extremist to take over due to its location and population. Years of slow growth, corruption in government, constant terrorist attack and conflict with India dramatically slowed Pakistan's development, make Pakistan an unstable country

Your view that Pakistan is a victim of radical Islam (remember Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, Maldives are not victims or radical Islam) is just plain wrong !. Pakistan ( the state itself) nurtured radical Islam, Afghanistan is screwed because of Pakistan (US defiantely has a role to play, but Af was just strategic depth against India).

The analogy used in some posts above was perfect "How can a suicide bomber be a victim of terrorism"

Also our territorial disputes with Pakistan are well....different than say our disputes with China. Remember we were one nation before the Partition. Pakistan is an ideological state while India is a nation state (I'm not implying that I want to rejoin)

Although Indian can always suspect Pakistan government behind terrorist attack, I can assure you, the worst nightmare for India and Pakistan, and the best scenario for radical Islamism is India and Pakistan goes to war because of these attacks.

Pakistan government is a facade. Pakistan state would be more appropriate. The various terrorist groups created by them have come to haunt them back! The state just wants control over these groups (as it did in the 1990s).

 

[kickok1975]

Suicide bomber is indeed victim of terrorism. They greatly harmed other innocent people but at same time take away their own life because of poison from terrorism ideology. Look at typical Suicide bombers; they are usually young man, or women who are feed up with radical ideology. They were used as tools to realize the target for people behind the curtain. They lack of judgment and live in fantasy of lies. It happens all the time in human history. Remember Dark Age of Roman Catholic; remember NAZI Germany, or Kamikaze in WWII? All these people died in vain

 

[The Messiah]

The US archives quote Kissinger as telling Nixon: "If the Soviets move against them (the Chinese) and we don't do anything, we will be finished."

"Nixon asked: 'So what do we do if the Soviets move against them? Start lobbing nuclear weapons in, is that what you mean?' Kissinger responded: 'If the Soviets move against them in these conditions and succeed, that will be the final showdown"¦ and if they succeed we will be finished'.

"He added that 'if the Russians get away with facing down the Chinese and the Indians get away with licking the Pakistanis"¦ we may be looking down the gun barrel.' In the end, they concluded that the projected confrontation with the Soviet Union would not involve a nuclear exchange."

 

[pmaitra]

The Mauryas could also be an exception. But that depends on whether or not you consider Afghanistan to be a historical part of "Bharat".

At least southern Afghanistan is part of Bharat. Gandhara province, the region around present day Kandahar was indeed part of India and there are plenty of references to that fact. For that matter, even Kailash should be typically part of India, although I am happy it being part of an independent Tibet but I am not comfortable with it being under occupation of PRC.

 

[chex3009]

As far as i believe and things shaping up from the chinese side is that

1. China is doing everything to twist and try India's patience like the Stapled Visa row, Arunachal claims (Chinese started raising their assertiveness much recently, until now it was relatively calmer), Issuing statements against any move made by His Holiness Dalai Lama, High number of chinese presence in Gilgit-Baltistan etc.
2. This moves are purposely carried out to test India's patience and eagerly await an Indian reply. But our government is playing out rather smart to the chinese for the very first time while simultaneously increasing military strength in the North-East Region.
3. If China could carry out an attack against India (in my view) is now i.e. 2010-2020. After this period and Chinese attack could be effectively dealt with and in response China might be threatened by India after 2020.
4. I Personally don't want these two Asian Giants going against each other rather complement each other for mutual benefit and give a befitting reply to any western covert designs thereafter.
5. China's massive infrastructure development move in Pakistan (Gwadar Port), Sri Lanka, Gilgit-Baltistan and regions surrounding India is nothing but to secure safe passage for massive energy needs that China will require in times ahead. The Chinese feel terribly threatened by the Indian Navy and its ability to enforce a blockade on the Straits of Malacca and therefore blocking off all the Chinese oil supplies and cargo supplies.
6. India taking a tougher stand on the PoK and therefore Gilgit-Baltistan region will imply many strategic issues and will make Chinese designs (regarding Pakistan, and befriending India) very Clear. India needs that guts to take out this region by any means (political, militarily, covert designs)
7. Last point, giving china positive signals that India is not an enemy and can be relied upon for the future of Asian Century. This only if China addresses our concerns regarding Aksai Chin, Arunachal Pradesh and Tibet.

Indians want a lasting peace with China, Hope China wants the same and hoping it doesn't have another 1962 in the offing....!

 

[Minghegy]

As far as i believe and things shaping up from the chinese side is that

1. China is doing everything to twist and try India's patience like the Stapled Visa row, Arunachal claims (Chinese started raising their assertiveness much recently, until now it was relatively calmer), Issuing statements against any move made by His Holiness Dalai Lama, High number of chinese presence in Gilgit-Baltistan etc.
2. This moves are purposely carried out to test India's patience and eagerly await an Indian reply. But our government is playing out rather smart to the chinese for the very first time while simultaneously increasing military strength in the North-East Region.
3. If China could carry out an attack against India (in my view) is now i.e. 2010-2020. After this period and Chinese attack could be effectively dealt with and in response China might be threatened by India after 2020.
4. I Personally don't want these two Asian Giants going against each other rather complement each other for mutual benefit and give a befitting reply to any western covert designs thereafter.
5. China's massive infrastructure development move in Pakistan (Gwadar Port), Sri Lanka, Gilgit-Baltistan and regions surrounding India is nothing but to secure safe passage for massive energy needs that China will require in times ahead. The Chinese feel terribly threatened by the Indian Navy and its ability to enforce a blockade on the Straits of Malacca and therefore blocking off all the Chinese oil supplies and cargo supplies.
6. India taking a tougher stand on the PoK and therefore Gilgit-Baltistan region will imply many strategic issues and will make Chinese designs (regarding Pakistan, and befriending India) very Clear. India needs that guts to take out this region by any means (political, militarily, covert designs)
7. Last point, giving china positive signals that India is not an enemy and can be relied upon for the future of Asian Century. This only if China addresses our concerns regarding Aksai Chin, Arunachal Pradesh and Tibet.

Indians want a lasting peace with China, Hope China wants the same and hoping it doesn't have another 1962 in the offing....!

your medias hyped chinese threaten, some words such as border/pla/aggressive, but it's just a word, can you offer the videos of pla's aggressive action? have you seen them? no, you just hype the words, and repeat them, and pretend know the truth.

one child policy is a signal that china doesn't want war in decades, while india's fast increasing population is danger.

china builds infrastructure in many counties, not only in south asia, you should have real confidence, not pretend to have confidence.

 

[civfanatic]

you should have real confidence, not pretend to have confidence.

"Even if a snake is not poisonous, it should still pretend to be poisonous"

-Chanakya

 

[Minghegy]

i very hate your one behaver that you always say china will attack you.
chinese medias only focus on east asia, usa, europe, india's news is in corner
hype indian threaten? never happened.

 

[civfanatic]

i very hate your one behaver that you always say china will attack you.
chinese medias only focus on east asia, usa, europe, india's news is in corner
hype indian threaten? never happened.

India's media is a joke and not to be taken seriously. Just as a general rule.

 

[chex3009]

i very hate your one behaver that you always say china will attack you.
chinese medias only focus on east asia, usa, europe, india's news is in corner
hype indian threaten? never happened.

Its not our perception nor are we dreaming that China will attack India. Infact its the massive buildup of arms and threatening postures regarding Chinese government involving issues they have with many neighbouring countries including India that makes any peace loving country to be threatened, as we have already fought a bitter war in 1962. Even Indian Media reports anything about China once in a fortnight, but that news are nothing but the signs of aggression, incursions into Indian territory and nothing else.

 

[no smoking]

Its not our perception nor are we dreaming that China will attack India.

Then, Is it whose perception? Until today, I didn't see any chinese official talking about attacking india or india threat since 1962. What I saw is the repeating speech from top indian politicians and generals about Chinese threat.

Infact its the massive buildup of arms and threatening postures regarding Chinese government involving issues they have with many neighbouring countries including India that makes any peace loving country to be threatened, as we have already fought a bitter war in 1962.

Isn't india doing the same thing: massive buildup of arms? Isn't india having issues with its every neighbour? So, with the same problems, China is the aggressive country but india is the peace loving one? How wierd is that?

Even Indian Media reports anything about China once in a fortnight, but that news are nothing but the signs of aggression, incursions into Indian territory and nothing else.

According to indian media, anything china does which is not in india's favor, must be the signs of aggression.
Building a road next to boarder, a sign of preparation of attacking!
Building a civilised port in indian ocean, a sign of circling india.
Signing a free trade agreement with any india's neighbour, a move to damage india's interest.

Looks like whatever chinese do, we should get permission from india first, otherwise that is the aggressive action. Now I understand what is the meaning of being india's friend.

 

[Ray]

Then, Is it whose perception? Until today, I didn't see any chinese official talking about attacking india or india threat since 1962. What I saw is the repeating speech from top indian politicians and generals about Chinese threat.

Chinese leaders comments are not in public domain since adverse comments that does not show China as the fountainhead of world peace and brotherhood is not carried by the Chinese press, which alone has access to the Politburo and even that is doubtful.

So, no news is good news, is the theory!!

Deng Xioapeng's '24 character Strategy' exhorts the Chinese to 'keep cool-headed to observe, be composed to make reaction, stand firmly, hide our capabilities and bide our time, never try to lead, and be able to accomplish something'. (Annual Report to the US Congress on the military power of the PRC).

24 Charater Strategy

Therefore, would China speak out its mind? Or is it biding its time as enunciated by Deng?

The PLAAF Chief Lt Gen Zheng Shenxiahave has stated that unless China adopts a pre-emptive doctrine, the chances of PLA victory are limited!

Isn't india doing the same thing: massive buildup of arms? Isn't india having issues with its every neighbour? So, with the same problems, China is the aggressive country but india is the peace loving one? How wierd is that?

India has only an issue with two of its neighbours - Pakistan and China and not with every neighbour unlike China, which has problems with all its neighbours caused by Chinese aggressive designs and expansionism.

China claims to be the paragon of piety and peaceful virtues, but then their actions belies the fact. And Deng and his successors support that idea!

According to indian media, anything china does which is not in india's favor, must be the signs of aggression.
Building a road next to boarder, a sign of preparation of attacking!
Building a civilised port in indian ocean, a sign of circling india.
Signing a free trade agreement with any india's neighbour, a move to damage india's interest.

Looks like whatever chinese do, we should get permission from india first, otherwise that is the aggressive action. Now I understand what is the meaning of being india's friend.

Indeed that every action appears aggressive. Along with the building of road purportedly for infrastructure improvement for civilians, and yet the military movement also increases. Obviously, that is hardly 'peaceful' or 'friendly'.

 

[no smoking]

Chinese leaders comments are not in public domain since adverse comments that does not show China as the fountainhead of world peace and brotherhood is not carried by the Chinese press, which alone has access to the Politburo and even that is doubtful.

So, no news is good news, is the theory!!

Deng Xioapeng's '24 character Strategy' exhorts the Chinese to 'keep cool-headed to observe, be composed to make reaction, stand firmly, hide our capabilities and bide our time, never try to lead, and be able to accomplish something'. (Annual Report to the US Congress on the military power of the PRC).

24 Charater Strategy

Therefore, would China speak out its mind? Or is it biding its time as enunciated by Deng?

The PLAAF Chief Lt Gen Zheng Shenxiahave has stated that unless China adopts a pre-emptive doctrine, the chances of PLA victory are limited!

So, all we got now is that India ASSUMES that china is threating it!!!!

India has only an issue with two of its neighbours - Pakistan and China and not with every neighbour unlike China, which has problems with all its neighbours caused by Chinese aggressive designs and expansionism.

Yes, India has no problem with its neighbour even though its prime minister was assainated by the people from sri lanka. And all its nerighbour are welcoming china to come in their countries to carry on those "agressive" projects.

Indeed that every action appears aggressive. Along with the building of road purportedly for infrastructure improvement for civilians, and yet the military movement also increases. Obviously, that is hardly 'peaceful' or 'friendly'.

So, you mean those pipe line and ports are threatening india's safty? Why don't your neighbours think these projects are not peaceful?

 

[Virendra]

So, you mean those pipe line and ports are threatening india's safty? Why don't your neighbours think these projects are not peaceful?

They don't because they're sold out to China. They'll keep licking Chinese boots till China is throwing dimes at them, even if they're disgusted and infuriated with China from within.
It is not the ports and lines that are a worry. Yes our media has exaggerated it but that doesn't change anything about what Chinese Govt. and PLA are pursuing. Building militarily utilizable infrastructure in a long disputed area having widespread reflections on us is something you call being sensible? It is deceit and legitimizing the Pak claim on that area while for the sake of blabbering in press, they would still call it a bi-lateral issue.
In its hunger to reach Arabian sea through a shortcut Chinese Govt. forgot that it stamped the soil which belongs to us.

 

[Ray]

So, all we got now is that India ASSUMES that china is threating it!!!!

No, India does not assume.

It reads the tea leaves!

and also the tongue in cheek, devious, dubious and crafty pronouncement as 24 Character Strategy. It spells out the Machiavellian character and policy of the CCP.

Do let us know if there was no such thing as 24 Character Strategy.

Yes, India has no problem with its neighbour even though its prime minister was assainated by the people from sri lanka. And all its nerighbour are welcoming china to come in their countries to carry on those "agressive" projects.

The PM of India was not assassinated. He was just Rajiv Gandhi then and nothing more! He was not killed by the Sri Lankan govt, but by the LTTE. I am not aware that LTTE was the Govt ruling Sri Lanka. You have some inside info that the LTTE was the Govt of Sri Lanka?

India is having projects and trade in all its neighbouring countries and guess what? Even in Pakistan!!

so, what is wrong in countries asking China to set up projects? After all, Chinese set up projects at throw away prices since manufacturing comes cheap in China, so is the labour and also the undervalued currency!! It is later they will realise they have been handed a lemon!

So, you mean those pipe line and ports are threatening india's safty? Why don't your neighbours think these projects are not peaceful?

What so do your opinion about that?

Why is your neighbours not considering the overtures as peaceful?

Guess why China is wailing over China being 'encircled'?

As far as Pakistan is concerned it has historically been a 'client state' and sold to the highest bidder.

The US currently has won the bid and China is a mere second!!