Chengdu J-10 'Vigorous Dragon'

[aerokan]

1 - AL-31 (especially F-M1/2 and 117 series) has much more efficient design (which leads to greater specific thrust, fuel efficiency and controllability in harsh and difficult running modes such as high AOA, boundary flow sucked into the intake and others, in which RD-33 become very difficult controllable).
And of course RD-33 lacks modern design features like FADEC, BLISK compressor wheels, 2100K+ materials and several others which make AL-31 outstanding. AL-31 has constantly been modernised and overhauled from version to version while RD-33 has left in the early 80-s by its tech level and technical data. Alsough AL-31 allows a fighters to have greater combat ranges due to greater fuel efficiency, while RD-33 powered fighters have 250 km intercept radius with one supersonic leap on the route.

And another one "feature" of AL-31 which RD-33 lack: it can be a powerplant for heavy fighters.

2 - Yeah, RR engines are leaps, but allof them are in the past. Only Trent has left on the level, but it is not a fighter engine.
As for Spey... @ice berg, are you a real moroon, or just kidding me? Spey was designed in 1955 and first flown in 1964 as civillian engine. The only countries where Spey has left in the air are Brasilia/Italia with AMX (civillian non-afterburned engine) and China which gather foreign old leaps being unable to make its own ones.

You should more read but less write to avoid so visible self-crapping mistakes like the following:


But instead of reading at least Wiki: like this (but Janes is much better) you have shown yourself as nervous schoolboy which argues with diplomed engineer adult.
Yes, Spey is not Russian engine. So, if you'll spread your narrow eyes wider and reread my original post, you will see that I have said that it is NOT Russian and is not Russias property or problem. You can sell this obsoletion to anybody who want to buy it



I have all the logic necessary. If China will resell those engines, it will not share aftermarket profits with Russia. This is bad move. Also China will sell engines (and fighters which they power) to the countries, which are in the Russias black list. Look at the political situation in the Middle East and Africa and you will see all the reasons (if you want to, but you don't, you want just puke, not think).



Read a quote above. BTW, China want to sell fighters and engines for them independently from the Russian political interests. China constantly tries to copy-paste engine technologies illegally. Those reasons are enough to sell advanced engines to China with restriction for internal use only.



Post #85 proves nothing except you have complete mess in your head, kid.
K-8 - Ukrainian AI-25TL (aged non-Russian non-fighter engine)
Hongdu L-15 - Ukrainian AI-222-25 (not Russian, aging non-fighter engine)
Jf-17 - Export approved obsoleted RD-93

Where are AL-31 or the other 12-tonns class engine powered plane among them?

Go read some real books, not Chinese fans forums before you start argue with adults.
And, BTW, we are talking about J-10 with AL-31FN, not about trainers or light fighters. So, read the discussion first.

I can assure you that iceberg refers to other posters as kids but never kid on anything. You should never ask questions like 'does sun rise in the east?' or 'is iceberg a moron?'

 

[no smoking]

If you are talking about PAF, then it is highly unlikely they will get anything concrete done before the decade ends with J-10B. For J-10A, they need Russian approval for the Chinese to re-export the engine. The Russians don't plan on allowing re-export of the AL-31. It will open up an unnecessary competitor if they want to sell Mig-35s, Su-35s and even MKIs.

But Russia may give the permission to the case of Pakistan after all it is almost impossible that Pakistan will buy their weapons.

However the J-10B already exists. PLAAF will start receiving operational birds in the next few years.

I doubt the Chinese will export their high thrust engines to PAF, even after considering PLAAF orders will have to be met first.

Seems to be a dead end for PAF.

That is true. The lastest news is that Liming doesn't have enough production capacity.
But there is rumors in Chinese forum that Chengdu is working on their own cheap version stealth plane specifically for Pakistan who already made some deposit.

 

[p2prada]

But Russia may give the permission to the case of Pakistan after all it is almost impossible that Pakistan will buy their weapons.

It's different if some export customer wants hundreds of aircraft. They will jump at the chance, like 150-250 JF-17s for PAF and an export potential for another 250 aircraft to other countries. That's at least 1000 engines over the aircraft's life and is a contract between $1.5 and $2 Billion.

36 J-10s would mean at least 72 engines and worth only around $150 Million. Worthless amounts for the technology given away and an unnecessary export competitor, while pissing off India at the same time.

But there is rumors in Chinese forum that Chengdu is working on their own cheap version stealth plane specifically for Pakistan who already made some deposit.

Yeah, the rumoured single engine export stealth fighter. Possibly the advanced version of JF-17 or a clean-slate design. Irrelevant to the discussion considering the new aircraft will have to use a Chinese engine if it needs success. RD-93 and AL-31 are obsolete designs. The aircraft will match FGFA's induction timeline rather than Rafale's.

 

[no smoking]

It's different if some export customer wants hundreds of aircraft. They will jump at the chance, like 150-250 JF-17s for PAF and an export potential for another 250 aircraft to other countries. That's at least 1000 engines over the aircraft's life and is a contract between $1.5 and $2 Billion.

36 J-10s would mean at least 72 engines and worth only around $150 Million. Worthless amounts for the technology given away and an unnecessary export competitor, while pissing off India at the same time.

Firstly, I don't think Pakistan has the ability to do anything significant based on this technology. There is too much work to do before even thinking about it. Remember it took Chinese 40 years to learn how to build an engine and 20 years to learn how to design one. Until today, we still can't calim a completely success.

Secondly, Russian can put certain restriction on Chinese exportation, such as the clients which Russian is interested.

 

[p2prada]

Firstly, I don't think Pakistan has the ability to do anything significant based on this technology. There is too much work to do before even thinking about it. Remember it took Chinese 40 years to learn how to build an engine and 20 years to learn how to design one. Until today, we still can't calim a completely success.

Secondly, Russian can put certain restriction on Chinese exportation, such as the clients which Russian is interested.

If the AL-31FN has to go to PAF, they are going to ask for a more modernized engine. Regardless, they won't use it for reverse engineering or anything, but they will learn the advantages and flaws of such an engine along with maintenance and serviceability procedures. Aspects which are bound to be similar on other Flankers and detrimental to India.

Why would Russia want to put "some" restrictions, it won't make any point. It is not like PAF will be buying 200+ J-10s to make it viable anyway. Other clients are not big enough either. They will all only want one or two squadrons, which does not justify releasing 4th gen technology so easily.

 

[no smoking]

If the AL-31FN has to go to PAF, they are going to ask for a more modernized engine. Regardless, they won't use it for reverse engineering or anything, but they will learn the advantages and flaws of such an engine along with maintenance and serviceability procedures. Aspects which are bound to be similar on other Flankers and detrimental to India.

Chinese has been using and stuying these engines for decades, certainly Pakistan has learned it from China, I don't think there is anything more Pakistan can learn.

Why would Russia want to put "some" restrictions, it won't make any point. It is not like PAF will be buying 200+ J-10s to make it viable anyway. Other clients are not big enough either. They will all only want one or two squadrons, which does not justify releasing 4th gen technology so easily.

My point is that China has far better condition to copy these 4th gen technology while Pak has almost none, so if you already release these techonologies to China, why worry about Pak?

Since Pakstan already learned or get this technology through China, why don't earn yourself a profit and it may give you a chance to get you another market in the future?

 

[p2prada]

Chinese has been using and stuying these engines for decades, certainly Pakistan has learned it from China, I don't think there is anything more Pakistan can learn.

No chance. PLAAF would never allow their official docs and expertise to go to another country. Your own laws will not allow it.

Also no point studying about it. You need to go in there and get your hands dirty before you learn anything.

My point is that China has far better condition to copy these 4th gen technology while Pak has almost none, so if you already release these techonologies to China, why worry about Pak?

Nobody is saying PAF will copy the engine. That's pointless. Engines have their own unique radar and IR signatures which can be studied.

Since Pakstan already learned or get this technology through China, why don't earn yourself a profit and it may give you a chance to get you another market in the future?

36 fighters is too less. The total value of the deal is far too small for Russia to make such a commitment. It was different with JF-17s and potential sales of over 500. Adding MLUs to the list, the potential sale is over 1500 engines alone. Or at least 450 with PAF orders alone over the next 20 years.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless since PAF won't be buying the J-10s.

 

[shiphone]

Just have a look at these posts full of brave words again...LOL..since the first working day of this week is not that busy, I could spare some time.
it seems some megalomaniacs get more and more exciting these days,and began to quote the so called "official Chinese sources" but completely forgetting that he even can't read and write chinese.....the biggest joke ever in this thread...

And another one lools:


1 - WS-10 is AL-31F copy with some local changes.

funny...LOL..PLA AirForce Museum in Beijing has a pair of retired WS10' Prototype and AL31F for display. most times, one image could tell thounds of words, which could easily beat those cheap baseless empty talk...

2 - According to official Chinese sources, there were 2 test squadrons of J-11A/B (24 jets) trying to use WS-10. But that squadrons were downed to earth due to constant engines failures, complete thrust lack and instability and the other several deseases including even 3 accidents with in-flight turbine partial destruction.

LOL...
1.which is the "official Chinese source"? name it...
2.in china ,a squadron of fighters normaly mean 4 jets formation...LOL...I know you may mean "Fighter regiment'(you should know this well,coz you came from an Ex-Soviet nation),but a J11/11B regiment normaly owns 24 birds(20 single seat,+4 trainers),and a PLAN Aviation regiment would got 16 single seat+8 two seaters. so called 2 regiment of jets would be more than 40....LOL...your souce said this?
3.would you tell us the so called "two test squadrons" Unit designation(which regiment, which Divison,which AFB?)...and When this happened? since you have so called 'official Chinese sources'...LOL...
4.most of J11B(so far 5 regiments , more than 120 J11B/BS in total ) use the WS10A Taihang Engine, but None of 105 jets of J11A use the WS10A Except one ----the China Test Flight Establishment--CTFE's No.522 J11(Factory number 0012-- the 12th jet of first batch of locally assembled Su27)...the refit job of WS10A(one engine only) on this bird took place in the Aug 1998. then the test flight began

the only J11A with WS10........LOL.....again, 'two squadrones' of such birds?. another lie and joke here...

 

[shiphone]

the testbeds of WS10 engine during the R&D progress ...

[/IMG]

1.Il-76 Engine Testbed--CFTE No.760

The aircraft was modified from a former Russian Il-76SKIP/Be-976 missile tracking aircraft (S/N RA-76456). The modification including the removal of the radar system took place in 2004 at the LII Flight Research Institute and the aircraft was handed over to China in mid-2005. The inner engine on the port side has been converted into an engine testbed, an arrangement similar to Russian Il-76LL engine testbed variant. Two large wingtip pods were retained which now might house engine monitoring instrument. Two small pods of unknown purpose (cameras?) can be seen attached to the rear fuselage. The IL-76 engine testbed (S/N 760) is in service with CFTE, replacing the old Tu-16 engine testbed. The aircraft is expected to be involved in the development of WS-10, WS-15, WS-18 and WS-20 series turbofan engines. A WS-20 prototype was seen being tested onboard the aircraft in April 2013.

2. the CFTE No.522 in early 2000s....the second one of the J11A's prototype(4 such prototype was made,No.521-524)
note: for the safety reason...only one set of WS10A replaced the AL31F.

3.4 the CFTE no.522 with two WS10A after 2004----the final status of this bird, the pix in my above post are the take within these three years. this bird also has a project code "J11WS" in the documents.

-------------------
btw ,the early WS10 in flight test was done on the Tu-16 Testbed(CTFE No.086) which retired after the IL76 test bed was handed over, this Tu-16 testbed served in the CTFE for more than 20 years for a serial of WP and WS engines flight test.

 

[ice berg]

Kudos for still trying to teach that Ukrainian kid. You know he is clueless when he claimed ws10 was a copy from Al-31F. NOBODY can make a mistake like that and expect others to take him serious.

 

[no smoking]

No chance. PLAAF would never allow their official docs and expertise to go to another country. Your own laws will not allow it.

Also no point studying about it. You need to go in there and get your hands dirty before you learn anything.

Nobody is saying PAF will copy the engine. That's pointless. Engines have their own unique radar and IR signatures which can be studied.

That is why I said--Pakistan doesn't need to because Chinese already studied. Pakistan can rely on Chinese for their maintenances as what Indoesia did. Selling engines to Pak won't cause Russians any technological leakage.

36 fighters is too less. The total value of the deal is far too small for Russia to make such a commitment. It was different with JF-17s and potential sales of over 500. Adding MLUs to the list, the potential sale is over 1500 engines alone. Or at least 450 with PAF orders alone over the next 20 years.

But this sale doesn't require any further work to Russia, they just need to send the engines to Chinese and then sit down waiting for the payment.

 

[p2prada]

That is why I said--Pakistan doesn't need to because Chinese already studied. Pakistan can rely on Chinese for their maintenances as what Indoesia did. Selling engines to Pak won't cause Russians any technological leakage.

Hmm, I don't think you and I are on the same page.

But this sale doesn't require any further work to Russia, they just need to send the engines to Chinese and then sit down waiting for the payment.

How much would that be? $150 Million?

Why would the Russians give away a 4th gen engine for such a cheap price without having made any "real" money? Think about it.

How many countries have produced a 4th gen engine and how many are still trying to? Sure, for the Russians the AL-31FN is beyond obsolete, but that doesn't mean it is obsolete in our countries. A court judge made a similar ruling in a spy case here. What's obsolete in one country could be advanced and important for another. So the law will take its course with the impression that the tech stolen is important. The same thing happened in the US when two Indian businessmen stole obsolete "open source" information from govt database.

If the Russians sold 18 Su-30s attached to 36 engines, then the money is justified. Heck, even a 6 Su-30 deal is manageable and this is with a friendly country because they are buying the whole package. Just the engines, not justified.

Anybody can buy the RD-33, RD-93, F-414, F-404 etc. But nobody can simply go buy F-100 and AL-31.

 

[gadeshi]

Don't try to catch me, @ice berg, your hands are too short. How do you think, what's more interesting for me to do in my wacation? Being with my wife and son and finishing our new flat or breaking out your hubris on the forum? You've made so many factology mistakes, and shown so much of that hubris, that makes you a complete moron for the all forum members. @shiphone gives facts and photos, and I respect him for that, even if we're arguing much. But you resemble me a Tabakki Jackall from the Mowgly.

@shiphone:
I'm gathering the info for the large article about Chinese engines programme. There are many interesting things are already found. Just wait untill I'll complete the article.

About the regiments and squadrons... @no smoking was right, info abour mailfunctions were in Chinese news for years 2007-2009 (and I'm steel looking for the links, which is not easy since a lot of time passed as for the internet) and they've speaking about 24 jets. So, I've concluded that they speak about evaluation regiment of the reduced quantity (2 squadrons instead of normal 3 in the first line tactical regiments). And yes, like the guy from the former USSR I remember how many jets normally are in the tactical fighter regiment - 36 (3 squadrons, 12 each). But there were reduced-quantity regiments - 2 squadrons - evaluation, training, strategic bombing, recon and the other special purposses ones.

And the final thought for today:
The main problem of Chinese aviation enthusiasts is total lack of reliable info. Official sources much resemble a pure propaganda in Mao or old Soviet style, like "Comrad Lee (name is taken just for example) was awarded for super alloy invention, he invented it 30 years ago, but only now it is enabled to use" following by a pure propaganda bullshit. Not technical details (what super alloy, what are the differences from existing ones, which institute have done this and the like). No photos. Or the old photos, or the photos of the same prototypes (if we are speaking about the planes in the news), as we can see in the other news not related to the spoken one.

Russian situation is completely different - official sources have technical details, real photos, additional facts (if Sergey Shoygu says that Su-35 will be in the service this year, we know it's true while we know the quantity - 12 jets and the place to come - Dzemgi AB in KnA). And all the research, production and the other activity of the Russian enterprises is sparely reflected in their publicly available financial reports. So if we speak about 100 AL-31 from Salut to China, this deal will be in those reports for sure.

Chinese info is partial, controversal, propagandistic and completely unreliable compared to Russian one.

BTW, all the photos have EXIF metadata layer. There are a lot of interesting things there. For example, a date, where that shot has been taken. It allows to decide, is this photo true or another fake.

I've decided to gather these all and wright an article with facts, mentions, dates and photos.

 

[shiphone]

1. nowadays, a PLAAF J11 fighter regiment normally commanding 3 groups(2 squadrons each), which means 6 squadrons. it's quite different with the western AF ....1 'squadron' of four fighters right form a four finger formation

2. so you have no ' so called chinese official source', do you?...LOL...actually I have,when I have more time ,I would finish my second part of reply to the #95....LOL.
3. is the WS10A a 'copy of AL31F'?

-----------------------------------
I'm quite sure Ice berg and I are the same-----not only because we came from the same country ,but also --most importantly--we are the human beings, we would always make mistakes ..... he makes mistakes and I make mistakes ,then we would try not to deny it and then learn something from our mistakes ,which would help us move forward...

but on the other hand, It seems there is some other kind of people or "Gods" in this world(especially on the internet),they are claiming that what I said is the only truth,and I judge everything. I'm perfect and would be never wrong..... you poor human beings, you should listen to me. my flawlessness is definitely the other truth without any need of proof.....blah...blah...blah...

my education and life experience told me that you'd better stay with the human being and stay at a respectful distance from those 'Gods' ---which I would get a better and easy life ....any respect from a 'god' is a hearvy burden that a human being couldn't bear...or dare not take...spare me please...

------------------------

the world is quite big and multifarious...so called your experience in EX-Soviet times doesn't mean anyting to others , China is not only so called socialist state but also a national state with the long history,philosophy and social rules of our own...

and again , the only official language in China is Chinese, not English, Russian, cerntainly not українська мова either...you couldn't get the info doesn't mean its inexistence, of course you couldn't get anything ,coz you can't input even a simple keyword in chinese character to do the simple web search job...a very sipmle but true fact and logic here...

as a chinese , I couldn't search and read the so called ,so perfect ,so first hand Russian complete information---such as technical details, real photos, additional facts...blah,blah..blah....coz I can't speak and write(type) Russian. the same in the Ukrainian case, but my politeness ,and mind would tell me not to blaming and claiming that ' they are partial, controversal, propagandistic and completely unreliable info'

as I expcepted and forsee, finally someone would play his so called "trump card" some day(LOL....) ---- attact the credibility of chinese source and info...such behavior is not rare to me in my experience...
right when some Ukrainian new comer to this forum in this Su35E thread , he began to peddle a serial of tune such as

"China can't....."
"China don't have....."
or "China should..." ..."XXXX shouldn't...."
blah,blah....

then I asked the member for a simple request.

and

since no positive respond. I'm always igoring those funny baseless comments from this member. not interested in the replying at all...with such manner, I don't think any further dicussion would be meanful...so does the so called coming 'monumental work' ....just enjoy you life of your own.
-------------------------------

back to the topic, here is some visualized comparation of J10A and B's appearance.

 

[shiphone]

there is another J10B thread in China watch sub-forum...
some cross posts------the Prototypes of J10B...

PT 1031

the maiden flight is on December 23, 2008

the evolution of the first Prototype of J10B with timeline ...PT1031

----------------
PT1033

---------------
PT1034

----------------
PT1035--the one with WS10A

just like the AL31F and AL31Fn...the WS10/10A has two sub-varients distinguished via the accessory's possition.

I carefully pick two pix here to demonstrate not only the difference between these two sub varients, but also the evolution from WS10 to WS10A.
the above one is the WS10 prototype(accessory upside ---designed for J11 serial,but not mass produced) displayed in PLAAF museum, and below one is the WS10A(accessory downside for J10,there is another sub varient for J11 serial ) which is right the one fit on the J10B PT1035, it was displayed on Airshow China ,Zhuai

 

[ice berg]

Don't try to catch me, @ice berg, your hands are too short. How do you think, what's more interesting for me to do in my wacation? Being with my wife and son and finishing our new flat or breaking out your hubris on the forum? You've made so many factology mistakes, and shown so much of that hubris, that makes you a complete moron for the all forum members. @shiphone gives facts and photos, and I respect him for that, even if we're arguing much. But you resemble me a Tabakki Jackall from the Mowgly.

There is no need for me to "catch" you, son. I dont have the patience of shiphone to go through all the basics with you. I dont feel the need to teach you the difference between ws10A and AL-31 Fn, nor do I feel the need to lecture chinese export history. All of them free available on the internet. There are tons of good sites where you can read about that, mainly CDF or WAB. I feel no need to answer your ad- hominems because that will drag me down to your level.

I think your own sentence gives a pretty good picture of the limits of your indoctrination:
Chinese info is partial, controversal, propagandistic and completely unreliable compared to Russian one.

Simply priceless.

 

[drkrn]

the testbeds of WS10 engine during the R&D progress ...

[/IMG]

1.Il-76 Engine Testbed--CFTE No.760


2. the CFTE No.522 in early 2000s....the second one of the J11A's prototype(4 such prototype was made,No.521-524)
note: for the safety reason...only one set of WS10A replaced the AL31F.

3.4 the CFTE no.522 with two WS10A after 2004----the final status of this bird, the pix in my above post are the take within these three years. this bird also has a project code "J11WS" in the documents.

-------------------
btw ,the early WS10 in flight test was done on the Tu-16 Testbed(CTFE No.086) which retired after the IL76 test bed was handed over, this Tu-16 testbed served in the CTFE for more than 20 years for a serial of WP and WS engines flight test.

pic 1.every new engine will be tested in the same way initially .

pic3,4 pls post a jet flying with two chinese engines.not on ground

 

[shiphone]

LOL...some member from some nations would always request too much...but when you ask something back ,you would get nothing but just big talks...

1.when you quote some native language source with translation ,they would ask for a offcial English one
2.when you quote a Chinese news ,they would ask for some foreign News agency, especially the western English ones----BBC,CNN etc..,
3.when you show the jet on the ground (the taxi way) ,they would ask for the one in air...
4.when you have pic of a ship in the port ,then they would ask for the one on the high sea...LOL
5. sometime they would simply call each PIC is a Edited one..then ask for a so called original one which it is...LOL

Just some cheap troll behavior indeed

this deeply reflects their unwillingness to accept something they never heard before and this always changing world , but enjoying their so called sense of superiority or Self-comforting by denying everything...

I happend to read a comment to a BLOG on the TOI website by a Indian member...that's a mutual encouragement thing...

　Sunny Bhatia(jaipur) says:
　　October 09,2013 at 01:58 PM IST1 Follower
　　Very Truly said., we should first look at ourselves before looking out for others..
　　Agree (2)
　　Disagree (0)
　　Recommend (1)

------------------------------------
1. the point is :such tests have been done via own effort for decades...every engine project ---WP7,13,14 ,WS 6 ,8,9,10 have done this test on the testbeds

2. did my expression got misunderstood?

3.4 the CFTE no.522 with two WS10A after 2004----the final status of this bird, the pix in my above post are the take within these three years. this bird also has a project code "J11WS" in the documents.

the pix in my above post #108----the WS10A's J11A testbed--CTFE's J11WS. in my following post ,I would bring more J11B pix among the 120 such jets with WS10A in PLAAF ,PLANAF service ...both in the air and on the ground....LOL

 

[shiphone]

the first J10B of serial production batch... factory item number: 1·01...source: DSWC and CD

and the latest two SP batch of J10A --the 06 and 07 batchs...these pix were taken in 2012
6·39, 6·40(the 39th, 40th and the last two jets of 06 batch)...7·03(the 3rd one of 07 batch)

-----------------------------
BTW ,some complement about the Taihang-WS10 engine and J11B issue in post #118 as promised....

A squadron of J11B from some regiment of PLAAF No.32 fighter division--a reraised unit in around 2010, and it is the third unit(Regiment) equipped with WS10 powered J11B/BS in PLAAF formation...

pix from the news this Jan...the WS10's nozzle is quite identifiable...

All J11s are mounted with Taihang engine, hohoho

---------------------------------------

 

[SajeevJino]

Chinese J-10A Fighter Jet Locks on Su-30MKK2 Flanker​

CCTV has aired footage taken during a recent PLAAF (People's Liberation Army Air Force) exercise.

Among the images, there is also an interesting HUD capture showing a Lock On on Su-30MKK2 Flanker by a Chengdu J-10A, reportedly taken on Dec. 2, 2013.

The simulated lock-on is interesting, because HUD captures have rarely emerged from China and, above all, it was taken on a supermaneuverable fighter jet, serving with People's Liberation Army Air Force, Indonesian Air Force, Vietnam People's Air Force, Venezuelan Air Force and the Uganda People's Defence Force.

Obviously, as previously explained, such captures are almost meaningless unless we know the RoE (Rules Of Engagement) of the dogfight, flight parameters, restrictions, etc.


The Aviationist » Chinese J-10A Fighter Jet Locks on Su-30MKK2 Flanker