Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim - Secret Agent, Soldier and Statesman

[jouni]

Thanks, I will take your views seriously and conduct some searching. I hope you noticed that the doc is divided to 4 parts. Interesting to have an Indian view on things ( even with some interesting interpretation of facts ).

History is not maths, there is always room for new views.

 

[pmaitra]

Thanks, I will take your views seriously and conduct some searching. I hope you noticed that the doc is divided to 4 parts. Interesting to have an Indian view on things ( even with some interesting interpretation of facts ).

History is not maths, there is always room for new views.

I have not seen the entire documentary, so sorry about that. I only saw what you posted.

Anyway, one of our Freedom Fighters, S. C. Bose, who had taken help from Hitler, remarked, that he is willing to join hands with the devil to liberate India from the British.

You can see the full movie here.

 

[Ray]

@jouni

Thank you.

Hard choice - Communist or Nazis.

So, obviously Nazis - more European and claimed Purer race.

That apart, the USSR attacked and so the options were limited. Hence, Nazi Germany.

Hobson's choice.

Yet, it is interesting that Stalin personally removed his name from being tried at Nuremberg.

Mannerheim must have been some personality who could also be respected by the adversary.

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I will add one more thing that is what happens even today propaganda and disinformation.

To prove a point, one presents the side of the 'facts' that are favourable and make the other side appear evil.

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It is fine to claim that the Finnish SS did not undertake any atrocities that the German SS did when the assisted the German army. It is hardly believable. And who is saying so - the very Finn who organised the Finn SS volunteers. Now, after years, it is being disproved.

*********************************

When the Finns realised that Germany was losing, they started moving away from Nazi Germany. Opportunism?

Italy also quit the collaboration when the chips were going down.

*****************************************

Finland came out after the WWII unscathed regarding its collaboration with Nazi Germany, one because it was a bulwark Nation against the USSR and hence all sins were forgiven.

**********************************

If Italy also hero worshipped Benito Mussolini as the Finns hero worship Mannerheim, then they too would produce a documentary showing how he was a fierce Italian nationalist and how he disliked Nazi Germany.

*******************************

This is why I am sceptical when one claims one side is perfect and the other is evil.

Nothing is black and white. It is only grey, and something are more grey than others, but are whitewashed and cosmetically enhanced to make it appear less grey.

 

[jouni]

@jouni

Thank you.

Hard choice - Communist or Nazis.

So, obviously Nazis - more European and claimed Purer race.

That apart, the USSR attacked and so the options were limited. Hence, Nazi Germany.

Hobson's choice.

Yet, it is interesting that Stalin personally removed his name from being tried at Nuremberg.

Mannerheim must have been some personality who could also be respected by the adversary.

*******************

I will add one more thing that is what happens even today propaganda and disinformation.

To prove a point, one presents the side of the 'facts' that are favourable and make the other side appear evil.

*******************************

It is fine to claim that the Finnish SS did not undertake any atrocities that the German SS did when the assisted the German army. It is hardly believable. And who is saying so - the very Finn who organised the Finn SS volunteers. Now, after years, it is being disproved.

*********************************

When the Finns realised that Germany was losing, they started moving away from Nazi Germany. Opportunism?

Italy also quit the collaboration when the chips were going down.

*****************************************

Finland came out after the WWII unscathed regarding its collaboration with Nazi Germany, one because it was a bulwark Nation against the USSR and hence all sins were forgiven.

**********************************

If Italy also hero worshipped Benito Mussolini as the Finns hero worship Mannerheim, then they too would produce a documentary showing how he was a fierce Italian nationalist and how he disliked Nazi Germany.

*******************************

This is why I am sceptical when one claims one side is perfect and the other is evil.

Nothing is black and white. It is only grey, and something are more grey than others, but are whitewashed and cosmetically enhanced to make it appear less grey.

You cannot compare Mussolini and Mannerheim. Finland was an operating democratic country throughout the war, Finnish and British Parliaments were the only ones in Europe operating normally during the war. Germans visiting Finland say that Finnish leaders saved a nation, and German leaders destroyed a nation, maybe that answers the opportunism part. Of course many nationalistic Finnish officers dreamed of Greater Finland 41-42 when war luck was on Germanys side, reality sink in after Stalingrad. Something about Finland tells also the fact that the US never declared war to Finland, like UK and Russia did. Also I have not seen any evidence of the crimes of Finnish SS men.

I hope to learn about Great Indian military leaders, who in Indian Sun Tzu? Why did India lost to Alexander the Great, who had only some tens of thousands of men, you had millions and also war elephants?

 

[pmaitra]

@jouni, Alexander won the Battle of Hydaspes, and finally, Chandragupta Maurya (I have mentioned him to you before) defeated Alexander's general Seleucus Nicator.

The Greeks won the first, and subsequent battles, but eventually lost the war.

Did you get a chance to see the movie? It is three hours long, but you will get a good idea about one of the many patriots of India. Also, read about Bhagat Singh and Chandrashekhar Azad, and many more.

 

[pmaitra]

@jouni, you can read about India's Sun Tzu here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-history/50907-war-doctrines.html#post729653

 

[jouni]

@jouni, Alexander won the Battle of Hydaspes, and finally, Chandragupta Maurya (I have mentioned him to you before) defeated Alexander's general Seleucus Nicator.

The Greeks won the first, and subsequent battles, but eventually lost the war.

Did you get a chance to see the movie? It is three hours long, but you will get a good idea about one of the many patriots of India. Also, read about Bhagat Singh and Chandrashekhar Azad, and many more.

I never found the movie, is it at You Tube?

 

[pmaitra]

I never found the movie, is it at You Tube?

Yes, follow the link in the quote below:

I have not seen the entire documentary, so sorry about that. I only saw what you posted.

Anyway, one of our Freedom Fighters, S. C. Bose, who had taken help from Hitler, remarked, that he is willing to join hands with the devil to liberate India from the British.

You can see the full movie here.

 

[Razor]

Why did India lost to Alexander the Great, who had only some tens of thousands of men, you had millions and also war elephants?

India lost to that midget Aleksander.

The King known in West as Porus was pretty insignificant guy, he was barely mentioned in Indian historical texts. He was that insignificant.
Beyond this Porus's "kingdom" lay the real hearland of India, more powerful kingdoms.
But Aleksandr was smart; he knew he would get his asre handed to him if he dared proceed. So he went back.
And the West twisted this as Aleksandr "defeated India."
You guys are funny. :thumb:

 

[Ray]

You cannot compare Mussolini and Mannerheim. Finland was an operating democratic country throughout the war, Finnish and British Parliaments were the only ones in Europe operating normally during the war. Germans visiting Finland say that Finnish leaders saved a nation, and German leaders destroyed a nation, maybe that answers the opportunism part. Of course many nationalistic Finnish officers dreamed of Greater Finland 41-42 when war luck was on Germanys side, reality sink in after Stalingrad. Something about Finland tells also the fact that the US never declared war to Finland, like UK and Russia did. Also I have not seen any evidence of the crimes of Finnish SS men.

I hope to learn about Great Indian military leaders, who in Indian Sun Tzu? Why did India lost to Alexander the Great, who had only some tens of thousands of men, you had millions and also war elephants?

Actually democracy does not mean that it is pristine pure. Even Pakistan is a democracy, but it is actually being ruled by the Army with the democratic Govt a proxy.

The documentary that you showed though projected Mannerheim clear of his Nazi inclinations and blamed everyone including else for collaboration, but the documentary also indicated how Mannerheim continued to be a power broker (for the want of a better and less sensitive word) even during the democracy.

While Mannerheim escaped (possibly since Stalin removed his name from the war criminal list for reasons best known to Stalin), Risto Ryti (the President), Johan Wilhelm Rangell, Edwin Linkomies, Väinö Tanner,
Toivo Mikael Kivimäki, Henrik Ramsay, Antti Kukkonen, Tyko Reinikka were all sentenced to prison.

Now is the example where it is not justice or attaining fame itself which ascribe to the turn of events. It is prudence and political expediency. On the negotiations between the leadership of the Communist Party of Finland and Andrei Zhdanov, the chairman of Allied Control Commission, the question of removal of Väinö Tanner, the chairman of Social Democratic Party, was raised. In his private notes Zhdanov wrote: "If Tanner is removed, the Social Democratic Party will shatter..." thus opening road to Communist control of the left.

And rest is history

***********
Interestingly Mannerheim is of German descent and the family of Hinrich Marhein were from Hamburg. The family had emigrated to Sweden. It might be noted that at that time Finland was a part of Sweden in the latter part of the 18th century.

Another aside is that Mannerheim had come to India in 1927. He killed a 3.23 m long tiger which had reputedly killed two men and the pelt is on display at the Mannerheim Museum in Kaivopuisto, Helsinki.

**************************

How Alexander could come to India when it had millions of men and war elephants?

Porus, the King of Puarava, was the King of territory between the Jhelum and Chenab rivers and nothing more.

What is convenient missed out by Western historians is that Alexander combined his forces and allied with Taxiles (also Ambhi), the King of Taxila, against Taxiles' neighbour, the King of Hydaspes (Jhelum)i.e. Porus.

I might add that Western historians note that the Battle against Porus was the most costly in all its ramification for Alexander. And he had to turn tail thereafter.

 

[jouni]

Actually democracy does not mean that it is pristine pure. Even Pakistan is a democracy, but it is actually being ruled by the Army with the democratic Govt a proxy.

The documentary that you showed though projected Mannerheim clear of his Nazi inclinations and blamed everyone including else for collaboration, but the documentary also indicated how Mannerheim continued to be a power broker (for the want of a better and less sensitive word) even during the democracy.

While Mannerheim escaped (possibly since Stalin removed his name from the war criminal list for reasons best known to Stalin), Risto Ryti (the President), Johan Wilhelm Rangell, Edwin Linkomies, Väinö Tanner,
Toivo Mikael Kivimäki, Henrik Ramsay, Antti Kukkonen, Tyko Reinikka were all sentenced to prison.

Now is the example where it is not justice or attaining fame itself which ascribe to the turn of events. It is prudence and political expediency. On the negotiations between the leadership of the Communist Party of Finland and Andrei Zhdanov, the chairman of Allied Control Commission, the question of removal of Väinö Tanner, the chairman of Social Democratic Party, was raised. In his private notes Zhdanov wrote: "If Tanner is removed, the Social Democratic Party will shatter..." thus opening road to Communist control of the left.

And rest is history

***********
Interestingly Mannerheim is of German descent and the family of Hinrich Marhein were from Hamburg. The family had emigrated to Sweden. It might be noted that at that time Finland was a part of Sweden in the latter part of the 18th century.

Another aside is that Mannerheim had come to India in 1927. He killed a 3.23 m long tiger which had reputedly killed two men and the pelt is on display at the Mannerheim Museum in Kaivopuisto, Helsinki.

**************************

How Alexander could come to India when it had millions of men and war elephants?

Porus, the King of Puarava, was the King of territory between the Jhelum and Chenab rivers and nothing more.

What is convenient missed out by Western historians is that Alexander combined his forces and allied with Taxiles (also Ambhi), the King of Taxila, against Taxiles' neighbour, the King of Hydaspes (Jhelum)i.e. Porus.

I might add that Western historians note that the Battle against Porus was the most costly in all its ramification for Alexander. And he had to turn tail thereafter.

You have good points and vast knowledge. I agree that in Finnish history are some "grey areas" regarding both collaboration with the Nazis during the war and especially with the communists after the war. I like the fact that despite all the troubles our country is prosperous and free, so with the words of Hitler "Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong", I ride along with the chosen path.

 

[Ray]

You have good points and vast knowledge. I agree that in Finnish history are some "grey areas" regarding both collaboration with the Nazis during the war and especially with the communists after the war. I like the fact that despite all the troubles our country is prosperous and free, so with the words of Hitler "Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong", I ride along with the chosen path.

I have no quibbles with Finland or any other country.

I wish Finland well.

Yet, one should always remember Omar Khayyam's inimitable verse from The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyam:

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

 

[jouni]

Mannerheim protected Jews in Finnish army.

Throughout the Continuation War, they had to collaborate with the Germans. Some who were fluent in German served in the Intelligence Service and so, throughout constant liaison with German Intelligence, acquired information about the extermination of European Jewry. On the other hand, Jewish soldiers remembered the words of Marshal Mannerheim when Himmler tried to persuade Finnish leaders to deport the Jews to concentration camps: 'While Jews serve in my army I will not allow their deportation.' By serving in the Finnish army Jewish soldiers hoped to prevent the community from being persecuted

hree Jews serving in the Finnish army were awarded Iron Crosses by the German command for their bravery (Hannu Rautkallio, 'Cast into the Lion's Den', Journal of Contemporary History 29, 1994). Major Leo Skurnik was a descendant of one of the oldest cantonist Jewish families. He served as a doctor, organized the evacuation of a German field hospital and thereby saved the lives of more than 600 German officers and soldiers. He refused to accept the decoration on the grounds of being a Jew. Captain Solomon Klass saved a German company that had been surrounded by Soviet forces. Two days later, German officers came to offer him the Iron Cross. He refused to stand up and told them contemptuously that he was Jewish and did not want their medal. The officers repeated their 'Heil Hitler' salute and left. A third Jew, a nurse, also refused the Iron Cross.

Information about Soviet Jewish prisoners of war captured by Finnish troops only became available recently. Some very interesting reminiscences by one such prisoner, Lazar Raskin, appeared in a special issue of the Jewish journal L

is obvious that the policy of the Finnish authorities towards the Jews was in striking contrast with the situation not only in Germany but in its allies and in occupied countries such as France where the Vichy government actively helped to round up the Jews. One of the main reasons for this was the personality of the great Finnish leader Carl Gustav Mannerheim (1867—1951). He was a general of the Imperial Russian Army, served as a Garde du Chevalier officer to the Tsarina and accompanied Tsar Nicholas II and the Tsarina during their coronation in Moscow in 1896. He was also a scientist and explorer of Asia and the Far EastThe Jewish Quarterly
http://shaon.livejournal.com/96432.html
@Ray, @amoy

 

[Ray]

Yes, though the Finns were pro Nazi Germany, they were not anti Jew.

 

[amoy]

Scandinavians generally treated Jees well like Chinese did during the war. @jouni I recall a story that the king of Denmark (Christiansen) wore the Star of David openly to show his solidarity with Jews when Denmark was under Nazi occupation, and Danes helped Jews flee to Sweden.

 

[jouni]

Scandinavians generally treated Jees well like Chinese did during the war. @jouni I recall a story that the king of Denmark (Christiansen) wore the Star of David openly to show his solidarity with Jews when Denmark was under Nazi occupation, and Danes helped Jews flee to Sweden.

Yes, Danes courageously saved the Jews by sending them to Sweden. Quite the contrast what French, Dutch etc did. I remember seeing a movie about a German saving Chinese from Japanese, maybe in Nanking. Also Schindlers list is good story. Danes can be proud of what they did. Sometimes individuals matter.

 

[amoy]

The German @jouni mentioned is John Rabe. He was then the head of Siemens in Nanjing (Nanking） and a very very senior Nazi （also in charge of Nazi Nanjing at that time）. He was shocked and outraged by Japanese atrocities and filmed and kept what he witnessed in his diaries. He as chairman together with some others (Red Cross, professors and missionaries） set up a "security zone" in Nanjing and sheltered around 250,000. He repeatedly reported to Hitler and disclosed what their Japnese allies did when back to Germany. For that he was once arrested by Gestapo.

After WW2 Rabe was arrested first by Soviets then by Britain as a Nazi. Chinese KMT govmt and some Nanjing residents offered him an allowance and even welcomed him to settle down in China.

Yes there is also a movie for John H. D. Rabe.

Before the Sino Japanese war Nazi Germany was quite friendly with the Republic of China. Prez. Chiang Kai_shek had a son trained in a German military academy. Germany helped China to modernize the army. German ambassador then even tried （as intructed by Hitler） to broker a peace deal btwn China and Japan but failed to persuade China to accept cession of Manchuria to Japan.

 

[jouni]

Secret recording about Hitlers monologue in Mannerheims birthday

 

[pmaitra]

You have good points and vast knowledge. I agree that in Finnish history are some "grey areas" regarding both collaboration with the Nazis during the war and especially with the communists after the war. I like the fact that despite all the troubles our country is prosperous and free, so with the words of Hitler "Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong", I ride along with the chosen path.

There is a famous German saying: "žNimm deine Zukunft in die Hände!"

Yes, though the Finns were pro Nazi Germany, they were not anti Jew.

Sir, you are right. Even the Galicians, who were Nazis, were not anti-Jews, and the reason being, Lvov or Lemberg, at that time, was a Polish and Jewish dominated city, while the countryside was Ukrainian dominated. The Poles wanted Lvov to be part of Poland, but the countryside being Ukrainian majority, the Galicians did not agree. There was war between Poland and the Galicians, and the Jews allied with the Galicians, arguably to escape pogrom carried out by the Galicians against the Poles, following a Polish occupation and Polish pogrom of the Jews. The Galicians later become allies of Hitler.

 

[Ray]

There is a famous German saying: "žNimm deine Zukunft in die Hände!"



Sir, you are right. Even the Galicians, who were Nazis, were not anti-Jews, and the reason being, Lvov or Lemberg, at that time, was a Polish and Jewish dominated city, while the countryside was Ukrainian dominated. The Poles wanted Lvov to be part of Poland, but the countryside being Ukrainian majority, the Galicians did not agree. There was war between Poland and the Galicians, and the Jews allied with the Galicians, arguably to escape pogrom carried out by the Galicians against the Poles, following a Polish occupation and Polish pogrom of the Jews. The Galicians later become allies of Hitler.

Thanks for that info.

I did not know it.

One must take the Future in one's hand.