Can India achieve Great Power Status ?

p2prada

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No, you are mistaken. Libya hardly qualifies as a full scale war. France merely sent a couple of squadrons of jets to hit the Libyan forces. Russia *won* the Georgian conflict, and Chechnya is much more stable than Kashmir.
Not really. Russian forces were left without ammo in the middle of the Georgian war. They lost too many forces initially due to bad planning as well. They are no longer what they used to be.

The French had issues with maintaining a force outside France, even if it was barely a few aircraft.

Vietnam, with no money or indigenous capability managed to fight off against overwhelming odds at great loss to themselves over a long period. You are underestimating India's capability when it comes to war.

Besides, both these countries don't even have to send troops all the way to India. In the event of a full scale war, either country could vaporize all the major Indian cities using their nuke mounted ICBM's, since India has no missiles that would reach Paris or Moscow.
If it comes to nuclear war then that is a different scenario. Now if France and Russia threaten India with such, then they would face more harm than good. Pen is after all mightier than a sword. Your opinion stems from the belief that the world is divided into two camps, American and Chinese.

As for warfighting reserves I was wrong, the Indian army does not have 4-6 weeks of reserves, but barely 2 days worth:

Indian army running short of ammunition: General VK Singh - India News - IBNLive
Political statement aimed at GoI hastening the purchase of Tank ammo from Russia.

India is a paper tiger, it's time to acknowledge reality.
Agreed. But you are suggesting India would remain so even in the future based on the current situation which is wrong.

Huh?? Wars of "attrition" are not "quick and decisive" by definition.
Modern warfare is quite well defined by how much you can destroy in a short amount of time. Destroying too much even on the first day would mean you won the war.

Germany's military is a bad example to compare India with. Germany is restricted by treaty to have only minimal levels of armed forces:

Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are no such restrictions on India. Yet, even 6 decades after independence, India has not even been able to equip its army with indigenous guns and ammunition. Pathetic state of affairs.
We are not looking at being a world power so quickly anyway. Even with all their money and indigenous capability, China is a paper tiger even today.

China has a capable military because China indigenously produces the vast majority of armaments that its forces are equipped with. It doesn't buy billions of dollars of planes, tanks or artillery pieces through foreign tender. They makes their own guns, ammunition and jets, and even export them to other countries.
They have a more capable military because they are richer. That's all. Their guns and jets are sub par as compared to our own.

India is a third world hand-me-down country, incapable of indigenous design, development or production. And so will it remain for the forseable future until it eventually breaks up.
Sweden manufactures quite a bit of their own stuff. Nothing to say they are a world power because of that. For some reason people like to equate military power with indigenous capability. India takes foreign designs and manufactures them inhouse. When war comes there is no difference between indigenous and foreign design. They are all built to kill.

Great power and superpower status for India as of today isn't possible. Nobody can deny that. But what you are suggesting is India cannot be one based on flimsy reasons. India is a regional power at best and so is China. We have a lot of miles to go before we can even think about being a great power. Nevertheless, China will be an economic superpower pretty soon followed by India within a decade.
 

p2prada

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Superpower and great power status is dictated by policy, money and political writ and has nothing to do with homogenous and heterogenous cultures. You are comparing bronze age policies to 21st century politics. Currently, our political writ, policy and finances are average at best. But nothing to indicate we are not getting there.

Israel can be more ballsy than any other country and still not be a superpower. India can be more pansy than any country and still hold more diplomatic clout than a ballsy Israel.

India is the only country on the planet which is allowed to hold nuclear weapons while doing nuclear business with the rest of the world. Think about it.
 

Known_Unknown

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For some reason people like to equate military power with indigenous capability. India takes foreign designs and manufactures them inhouse. When war comes there is no difference between indigenous and foreign design. They are all built to kill.
???!!!!!!

This statement is fantastically, absurdly ignorant and totally wrong. If you cannot see why, then sorry, I cannot continue this discussion.

Maybe you can look through the pages of history and try to find even *one single* great power which fought almost exclusively with imported armaments. I assure you, you will not find a single one.
 
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Payeng

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East Pakistan was a militarily indefensible territory. You may well remember that though India won the war on the eastern front, on the western front, there was a stalemate.

Even today, show me a single Indian general who says that beating Pakistan is a cakewalk. Even Brigadier Ray has admitted in his earlier posts that the Pakistanis are no pushovers.
Stalemate matey? West Pakistan was not even in the menu, 1971 war is more Known as Bangladesh liberation war then an invasion of India , yet India pushed Pakistan in western sector till Lahore in International border and till Sialkot in Kashmir theater, reference for the later: Battle of Basantar

China on the other hand, is a whole different ballgame altogether. The PLA is twice the size of the InA, and they are very well equipped and supplied with indigenously produced armaments.

Banging your head on a wall will not damage the wall, but it will surely break your skull. So best way is to concede to the superiority of the Chinese, just as we advise the Pakis to concede to Indian superiority.
PRC is big but you must take it to the concern that, threat perception for PRC is comparable for more the 2x before you compare it with India, India is not the number one enemy for PRC to count in and neither is she an economy as big then her number 1 rival, not even half. Moreover she is encircled in a string of pearls to push all her military asset in towards the McMohan line, a theater hard to reach without sufficient logistics, for instance without a couple of bridges.
 

panduranghari

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If there is a blockade of the Malacca straits Chinese war capacity would probably be 3-6 weeks maximum using
any oil reserves they have; with their economy crumbling during this period.
Well said. People all over the world fail to understand the significance of oil in every facet of life.
 

Bangalorean

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In terms of PPP. It will takes decades or a century for India to match the per capita income, and hence the prosperity of Germans.
What was the prosperity level and per capita income of Germany in 1946? How long did it take to come up to standard (West Germany, not East)? It was up to the mark by late 1960s, isn't it? Even if one takes away the effect of the Marshall plan, take it as mid 70s.

Never make sweeping predictions doomsday predictions about the economy.
 

Known_Unknown

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What was the prosperity level and per capita income of Germany in 1946? How long did it take to come up to standard (West Germany, not East)? It was up to the mark by late 1960s, isn't it? Even if one takes away the effect of the Marshall plan, take it as mid 70s.

Never make sweeping predictions doomsday predictions about the economy.
Indians != Germans.

India's population is more than 12 times that of Germany, and hence by linear progression, even if Indians were as hardworking (productivity per capita) as Germans (which they aren't), as scientifically talented (developed all the super weapons of WWII) as the Germans (which they aren't), and as homogenous (one language, one culture, >95% one ethnicity, and hence fewer internal divisions) as the Germans (which they aren't), it would still take India more than 12x the "years" it took for Germany to recover from WWII.

A better comparison would be China. China was in a much worse state than India when it established its first government in 1949. India had a 2 year headstart over China, yet today China is at least 2 decades ahead of India in terms of infrastructure development, and at least a decade ahead in terms of GDP.
 

SPIEZ

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Indians != Germans.

India's population is more than 12 times that of Germany, and hence by linear progression, even if Indians were as hardworking (productivity per capita) as Germans (which they aren't), as scientifically talented (developed all the super weapons of WWII) as the Germans (which they aren't), and as homogenous (one language, one culture, >95% one ethnicity, and hence fewer internal divisions) as the Germans (which they aren't), it would still take India more than 12x the "years" it took for Germany to recover from WWII.

A better comparison would be China. China was in a much worse state than India when it established its first government in 1949. India had a 2 year headstart over China, yet today China is at least 2 decades ahead of India in terms of infrastructure development, and at least a decade ahead in terms of GDP.
For all your german pride I can't help but say what some of your country men have started to say nowadays "Indianer oder Ihre Kinder

"
 

Ray

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India will not be allowed to interdict ships in the Malacca Straits if not by the Chinese, then definitely by the Americans. You forget the oil supplies of the whole of East Asia pass through there. What's to stop tankers from flying Japanese or Korean flags? If you start interdicting each and every ship to verify paperwork, it will create a massive bottleneck which will affect Japan and Korea's economy as well.

Theoretically it sounds beautiful, but it is practically a fantasy, nothing more.
Dreaming men are haunted men.

Dream and haunt yourself!
 

Ray

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For all your german pride I can't help but say what some of your country men have started to say nowadays "Indianer oder Ihre Kinder

"
He is no German.

He is a masquerade!

He is one who hate his parentage!
 

Ray

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He speaks of 'auqat' in one of his posts.

Does he have one?


Forgive Him Father, He Knows Not What He Does.
 

SADAKHUSH

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You cannot fight with sticks and stones when your opponent has a Chain gun. As I explained earlier, India is too divided internally to ever become united for the common good of all its people. If India was homogenous like China, then we might have had a shot at becoming a great power.

But when Indian politicians cannot even agree on how to govern the nation, have to ally themselves in 16 or 21 party coalitions and manage all the ideological differences that come with them, it is not realistic to expect anything more than that India should remain a single united country instead of breaking up into countless little territories.
Unfortunately, in 3 decades, China's economy will by 60% larger than that of the US. It's military already poses a threat to US presence in the Far East, and US generals have admitted that in case of a conflict over Taiwan, the US will not be able to impose it's will on China. In the next few decades, China will surpass the US economically, militarily, and politically. There's no reason for India to ally herself with the losing side. Besides, the 2nd more important reason is that China is India's neighbour. In case of a conflict with China, Uncle Sam will not be able to intervene fast enough (assuming they are willing to risk conflict with China) to save India from Chinese wrath.

In geopolitics, it is wise to maintain good relations with your neighbours rather than fight with them and depend on a far away country to save your ass in case of war.
We have to agree that India has been weak on the latest techonology side of the weapons nevertheless modrenization has started and it is not the same Army as that of 1999. Even though India appears to be divided internally let me tell you when we are facing imminent external threat we stand hand in hand from Jammu and Kashmir to Kerala. I saw that as a nine year boy in 1962, 1965, 1971 and 1999. Although we have large number of political party which is the way political game is played but they are all united under the "TIRANGA"
if and when enemies of India have any evil design against us. India for one can count on me that I will mobilise every resource to help my JANAMBHUMI to my last breath and last drop of blood in my veins. How can you even think of making such an absurd idea that India should ally with a country which is already illegally occupying a nation of peace loving people.

Before second WW, Germany had also achieved what China is trying to achieve, if China does make a mistake like Germany than the end game will be same as that of Germany. China's long term goals are to occupy land of neighbours and as far as USA. It is not us who are living in lalaland but it is China and her rulers.
 

SADAKHUSH

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I believe racial homogenization is better than ideological homogenization. Ideologies wither away and die, but a racially homogenous nation becomes and stays a great power through its belief in the greatness of its people, regardless of the ideology guiding them. For example, the Russians were a great power under the Tsars, under the Communists and now under Putin. The same can be said of China (Qing Dynasty, Mao, market oriented current CCP leaders) and the French (Imperial France, Napoleon, Charles De Gaulle).

India was once a great power under Ashoka and the Guptas, but that was a merely flash in the pan. A couple hundred years of global importance amid millenia of enslavement by foreign powers and infighting.

Since someone here said earlier that history repeats itself, the only event we have to look forward to is either the disintegration of the Indian Union or it's enslavement by a foreign power.
When do you think the enslavement of India will start? I want to see with my own eyes. Please look in to your crystal ball and get back to us.
 

SADAKHUSH

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You can continue living in lalaland if you wish, but in reality, India was ruled for 200 years by a tiny European country. Even India's independence was an accident, which happened because after WWII, Britain no longer had the military might or the financial muscle to run her colonies.

As for France and Russia, India is a customer for their military hardware...nothing more nothing less. So stop living in lalaland and face up to reality.As for France and Russia, India is a customer for their military hardware...nothing more nothing less. India would not last even a single month in a war with either country. A country which after 60 years is still the world's largest weapons importer....who's only achievement is having the largest number of poor people in the world....is in this state because its people and its leaders are devoid of vision, pride, willpower and patriotism.

Indians should realize this reality, and only dream of achieving things which are within their capability (aukat) instead of comparing themselves to great powers like China, Russia or the US.
Seriously? Dude cmon, you know as much as I do that in a war with Pakistan, India only has about 4 to 5 weeks of fighting reserves. And I mean ammunition, spare parts, fuel and other logistics necessary for war. What makes you think we can take on France and Russia in a full fledged war if we can't even beat Pakistan?

Did you know that during WWII, the Russians took 30 million casualties and still won the war? At the end of the war, the Red Army was larger in manpower and materials than all of the Allied armies COMBINED!



In terms of PPP. It will takes decades or a century for India to match the per capita income, and hence the prosperity of Germans.
In to-days world no country can afford to occupy other nation without bleeding itself from inside. India is a customer of weapons and also extracts a better deal from exporters as well. We have been on upward trajectory for the last two decades only prior to that we had markets closed due to the policies of Nehru and I.Gandhi which had its own benefits in itself by establishing public enterprises such as HAL, BHEL, BEL and steel industries which are slowly but steadly forming joint ventures with foreign companies and some have also bought out companies in Europe and North America to gain technical expertise.

Any talk of war either with Russia or France as suggested by one of the posters is irrelevant on this thread. We did beat Pakistan four times and the fifth one will be complete wipe out of the nation. The pride, willpower and patriotism of Indians will be tested when the opportunity arises. I do not question any one the traits whatsoever. There is only one observation of yours I agree with that is the vision of political leaders only which they do not have that makes it difficult for common folks. This is one of the reason that I have been advocating on this forum to start a new political party based on future vision for India on a month to month basis.
 

rock127

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I am sure you are a Pakistani or chine nationalist
Sounds more like a Paki who is extremely frustrated by the decline/destruction of Pakistan and increasing power of India and wants to vent out on internet :D
 

rock127

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I am afraid it is YOU who is living in la la land.

You are sounding like a Lala!

And you are no Deutscher either!

No self respecting German would have Hitler as an avatar!

Such people are known as Selbstbeschmutzer (the closest translation is 'someone disgusting who soils his own nest).
Some time back India finished a major war within 2 weeks and tore that country apart in 2 pieces... guess which is it :D
 

Known_Unknown

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......Even though India appears to be divided internally let me tell you when we are facing imminent external threat we stand hand in hand from Jammu and Kashmir to Kerala. I saw that as a nine year boy in 1962, 1965, 1971 and 1999. Although we have large number of political party which is the way political game is played but they are all united under the "TIRANGA"
if and when enemies of India have any evil design against us. India for one can count on me that I will mobilise every resource to help my JANAMBHUMI to my last breath and last drop of blood in my veins. How can you even think of making such an absurd idea that India should ally with a country which is already illegally occupying a nation of peace loving people.
Such partiotic pep talk is good to make oneself feel like it would matter if you or other civilians resisted an advancing Chinese army into India, but it really wouldn't matter one bit. Civilians don't have the training, weaponry, knowledge of tactics or organization to resist invading armies. It won't matter if the entire civilian population of Mumbai (16 million or so) or Delhi decided to resist an invading enemy army, all it would result in is a massive civilian massacre and total destruction of both cities with little damage to the enemy.

On the other hand, an armed civilian society like the US can offer *some* minor resistance to an invading army, but all the handguns and shotguns in the world will not stand up to a bloody artillery or tank assault.
 

LurkerBaba

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KU, why not change flags to reflect your actual location/nationality ? It'll stop members from calling you a Paki/German/Chinese and save the mods a lot of trouble.
 

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