Britain may sell its Aircraft Carrier to India

[StealthSniper]

For my point of view India should not and will not get this Aircraft Carrier from Britain. India is going with it's own induction plans and the Gorshkov even if it's old and what not is the best choice for India if it's inducted in it's timeframe and all neccesary work is completed. India would be taking a step backward for indigenization if it buys a Aircraft Carrier from Britain while it is making it's own Aircraft Carrier in Cochin and has bigger plans in the future.

I like the Aircraft Carrier Britain is "maybe" offering to India but I think if India sticks to it's plans and really tries hard we will have our own indigenous A/C like the Queen Elizabeth after INS Vikrant is made.

 

[bengalraider]

Building a supercarrier has complications that are much more complex than building a smaller carrier , the logistics of building a 50,000+ tonne complex warship does not AFAIK exist at the moment in india, the CSL has been mordenised to build Aircraft carriers but i believe that it still odes not have the capabilityb to build anything of the scale of a NIMITZ, the In wants to leapfrog over all possible competitors in the IOR the easiest way to do this is to have a CBG with a supercarrier at it's heart, i for one believe that a conflict with china over the IOR is brewing and we need something on the scale of the QE class/ porte avions class to effectively cut short the ambitions of the PLAN.

 

[enlightened1]

If it is true then i say go for it!

 

[Daredevil]

If we were to not order Adm. Gorshkov, India should have definitely gone for this. I think India cannot afford at this stage (10 yrs from now) 4 air craft carriers (1 Gorshkov, 2 IAC, 1 Queen Elizabeth).

 

[Parashuram1]

Vayusena. India sure has a req for at least 4 carriers as we await the gorshkov and the three planned indigenous ones.

Could you please tell me how come there is a fourth carrier on th platter when the only two indigenous and one Russian are confirmed by your defense ministry at the moment are the Vikrant class one in 2014 and the other (perhaps nuclear propelled) in 2020+, that is estimated to be around 75,000 tonne+?

There was never a news that showed Delhi's desire to go for more than three carriers at least in the near future. As VayuSena1 sir pointed out, I doubt you could move to a 4 carrier formation suddenly from a single one. This interest shown by your government would be more or less to force the current Russian deal to smoothen in India's favor.

First of all, the MiG-29Ks are slated for use from both Gorshkov class and the coming Vikrant class carrier alongside India's indigenous Tejas naval version. The possibility that the 2017 carrier would carry a more futuristic version of your own domestic fighter is more than your government buying this British one and operating (which??) planes from.

Where do you plan to fit this alongside Goshkov, Vikrant and the nuclear powered carrier? As far as my geographical knowledge is concerned alongside the latest statements from Indian Admiral, one carrier is meant for Arabian Sea, the other for Bay of Bengal and the third one would mainly be in maintenance ( with the possibility of operating in the IOR along the US Navy).

Unless India plans to deploy another carrier in South China Sea, there is no reason why this carrier could be considered seriously.

 

[ppgj]

agree with you parashuram.
it just does not make any sense. we have never heard from either of the govts or the navies. it is just an unsubstantiated, frivolous news item.
even if IN has evinced interset, as the report suggests, to me - at best, it is a tactical move as you rightly pointed- a bargain chip on gorshkov.
even otherwise, looking at the support ships which would be needed in CSG role, it is not a wise decision and i am sure IN wont be so foolish. besides they sing indigenous mantra. even gorshkov they went was- more for being 'free' and they needed a stop gap for the retirement of vikrant and viraat was coming close to its retirement.

 

[Atul]

IN already has enough experience operating HMS Hercules (INS Vikrant) & HMS Hermes (INS Viraat). We should not forget that both this Platforms served with the Royal Navy.

Leasing One of the Invincible Class Carriers (Preferably the HMS Ark Royal) will help the IN to Fill in the GAP caused due to the Delayed schedule of INS Vikramaditya (Thanks to our russian Friends)

Though it is not a super carrier, it will server our purpose / Policy of Two AC. Since both will operate the Harriers.

 

[bengalraider]

As india grows as an international power it is natural for her to want to have naval forces that can be deployed far outside the confines of the IOR. the Indian military has in the year 2008 unveiled a joint doctrine for forward deployable amphibious forces, this was done taking into mind the lessons gained from the joint multi-arm amphibious exercise AMPHEX07. There was a further exercise conducted at the gujarat coast called TROPEX 09.Two deficiencies were identified prior to and during both exercises

1)The lack of a large modern amphibious transport dock, this deficiency has now partly been mitigated by the arrival of the Jalashwa which was used in both exercises.

2)The lack of carrier based forward deployable airpower, for any landing operation on enemy soil to be succesful, it is advisable to have air superiority over the landing zone. The INS Viraat is by and large outdated and cannot support such operations effectibvely due to it's dwindling fleet of aircraft. The IN hence needs 1-2 large aircraft carriers capable of rapid and massive aircraft deployment over hostile territory hence the requirement for large carriers.Also harriers in this day and age cannot fill air-superiority roles , larger carriers deploying hornets or rafales (or N-LCA OR MIG-29K)is the need of the hour a QE could do this role for the IN till our indigenous supercarriers arrive.


India in the future will also have to take care of airspace protection over smaller friendly states such as the maldives and mauritius. a QE class vessel would fill these needs while leapfrogging india to the realm of major carrier operators.

 

[enlightened1]

Though not confirmed by official sources but still..it was published earlier this year!

Cochin Shipyard to build 5 aircraft carriers​

The keel of India's first indigenous aircraft carrier, to be the second warship christened INS Vikrant, will be laid on February 28 at Kochi. But it is now clear that while Cochin Shipyards will build three aircraft carriers in the current 37,500-ton category (the second and third are to be christened INS Viraat and INS Vishaal apparently), design work has already begun in earnest to develop and build two more aircraft carriers with not only much larger displacements, but possibly nuclear propulsion as well.

 

[enlightened1]

India in the future will also have to take care of airspace protection over smaller friendly states such as the maldives and mauritius. a QE class vessel would fill these needs while leapfrogging india to the realm of major carrier operators.

India already maintains a very active presence in Mauritian waters. Indian ships in the Port-Louis harbor is a common sight. Myself I've been on board Talwar class, Delhi class, Rajput Class & Sandhayak class when they were here.

 

[K Factor]

There was never a news that showed Delhi's desire to go for more than three carriers at least in the near future. As VayuSena1 sir pointed out, I doubt you could move to a 4 carrier formation suddenly from a single one. This interest shown by your government would be more or less to force the current Russian deal to smoothen in India's favor.
reason why this carrier could be considered seriously.

India has invested way too much time and money in it to move away from the deal and the Indians and Russians both know it. If India had to bluff, they should have done so 5 years ago.

 

[bengalraider]

India already maintains a very active presence in Mauritian waters. Indian ships in the Port-Louis harbor is a common sight. Myself I've been on board Talwar class, Delhi class, Rajput Class & Sandhayak class when they were here.

I know about Indian naval operations in the IOR,but the fact remains that at the moment the IN has nearly no way to provide sustained and effective air power over these areas. A QE class vessel shall provide an air group large and powerful enough to do the same.

 

[bsn4u1985]

The British warship that India wants: quantum leap on the high seas

The British warship that India wants: quantum leap on the high seas

London, Nov 16 (IANS) A futuristic aircraft carrier that India is reported to be keen on buying from Britain is envisaged as a giant guardian of the high seas, capable of travelling thousands of kilometres from home and wreaking massive destruction on enemy targets, experts said Monday.

India has reportedly “lodged a firm expression of interest” in buying one of two huge aircraft carriers that are currently under construction - the largest warships ever built by Britain, and designed to be the most capable aircraft carriers outside the US Navy.

Britain is considering selling the warship to India for two billion pounds under a cost-cutting plan chalked out by its ministry of defence, the Observer reported Sunday quoting senior defence sources.

The two 65,000-tonne ships are being built for the Royal Navy by British Aerospace (BAE) - HMS Queen Elizabeth, on which work began this July will be the first to be rolled out in 2016. And preparatory work has started for the second, the Prince of Wales, due for launch in 2018.

A leading British naval expert told IANS the two warships embody a “huge quantum leap” in terms of technology, reach and power.

“It’s all about power projection. The Indian Navy is in the process of expanding its reach as a naval force capable of operating far from its own shores,” said Jon Rosamond, editor of the authoritative Jane’s Navy International.

“The Indian Navy has been patrolling the Gulf of Aden on an anti-piracy mission, but this ship will increase its reach even further afield,” he added.

“It would give India access to the Far East and even the Western Pacific. The aircraft carrier has a life span of 40-50 years, so there has been a lot of speculation. People are talking about the rivalry with China in particular,” Rosamond told IANS.

The ships under construction are the result of recommendations that came out of a wide-ranging Strategic Defence Review (SDR) undertaken by the Labour government in 1997 of nearly every weapon system in Britain.

The SDR concluded: “The emphasis is now on increased offensive air power, and an ability to operate the largest possible range of aircraft in the widest possible range of roles.”

The warships will be equipped with ski ramp-assisted takeoff at the front, which will suit the Sukhoi strike aircraft that India is buying from Russia, Rosamond said.

“It will be able to carry not only enhanced aircraft, but also more of them,” Rosamond said.

Strategic experts said that the anticipated “quantum jump” in Indian naval power would have the backing of the world’s major navies.


The British warship that India wants: quantum leap on the high seas

 

[icecoolben]

Sukoi on indian carrier, article is too plain. Doesn't explan which fighter st-33 or fgfa. But i wonder if v are reading too much into the request of interest.

 

[Vladimir79]

Gorshkov is not rebuilt it is presently being extensively refitted at Sevmash shipyard in Russia.

It is being rebuilt --- the only thing that is original is the hull and even that is getting structrual reinforcement and extensive modification. The saying at Sevmash is it must be "turned inside out and made new" so it is being rebuilt. If India hadn't waited so long, this much work would not have been needed.

it is already hit by delay and overcost and giving lots of headache.and in the paper it is saying that it can handle max 30 aircraft but it can handle max 16-20 aircraft according to specialist.u can google it abt it.

I don't need to google so called "specialists" when I know the deck and hanger areas.

i am not telling about scrap the IAC programme.in addition to that Queen E. AC will be beneficial for india which has very much capability for future and can also handle AWACs which will multiply Indian navy capability.

Do you think IN procurement budget grows on the bush? Your eyes are bigger than your stomach; trying to swallow that piece of cake will choke you. India can't afford to spend that much money for jobs that are made in UK. It is one or the other. The V-22 AWACs that is supposed to fit in CVF can easily be carried by ADS with an enlarged elevator.

 

[icecoolben]

It is being rebuilt --- the only thing that is original is the hull and even that is getting structrual reinforcement and extensive modification. The saying at Sevmash is it must be "turned inside out and made new" so it is being rebuilt. If India hadn't waited so long, this much work would not have been needed.
I don't need to google so called "specialists" when I know the deck and hanger areas.
Do you think IN procurement budget grows on the bush? Your eyes are bigger than your stomach; trying to swallow that piece of cake will choke you. India can't afford to spend that much money for jobs that are made in UK. It is one or the other. The V-22 AWACs that is supposed to fit in CVF can easily be carried by ADS with an enlarged elevator.

with moscow trying to such up those same dollars from india. Do u think russians are any better than british trying to create infra and work for their own industry at india's cost.

[mod]Icecoolben, please refrain from using SMS language and is agianst the standards of the forum. Type the full words not shortcuts. You have been asked the same by another moderator. Please don't repeat[/mod]

 

[Vladimir79]

with moscow trying to such up those same dollars from india. Do u think russians are any better than british trying to create infra and work for their own industry at india's cost.

Can you write in complete sentences? Your broken English is like trying to read a google translation. This is not SMS.

 

[Emperor]

Building a supercarrier has complications that are much more complex than building a smaller carrier , the logistics of building a 50,000+ tonne complex warship does not AFAIK exist at the moment in india, the CSL has been mordenised to build Aircraft carriers but i believe that it still odes not have the capabilityb to build anything of the scale of a NIMITZ, the In wants to leapfrog over all possible competitors in the IOR the easiest way to do this is to have a CBG with a supercarrier at it's heart, i for one believe that a conflict with china over the IOR is brewing and we need something on the scale of the QE class/ porte avions class to effectively cut short the ambitions of the PLAN.

True, but done forget that we first walk and then run.Our walking process includes the building of IAC.And the running process would be super carriers with nuke propulsion.
Before IAC was planned no shipyard in the country was capable of constructing naval ships of such displacements.But we did and are constructing one .And funds were distributed to other yards for upgradation.
IAC2 will definitely be a larger ship compared to IAC.But a propulsion change decision will be finalized only in 2010 end.

IN is getting some 30 new ships in the coming 5 years which includes most advanced frigates and destroyers.China is currently wetting regarding the safety of its cargo passing through IOR.And a flotilla of carriers will definitely give China a numerous sleepless nights.
The added impact will be having a nuclear propulsion.It is another mental game.One first considered the propulsion of a carrier and then its compliment.
The Philosophy of a war is so simple it states that,"First kill the enemy psychologically and then physically."
Untill 2007 GOI was in mental shock and was bearing the aftermath of 62 war.It is only recently they came out from coma and started looking at the real world in real terms.

When Chandragupta conquered the provinces governed by Alexander clones,and was getting readied for a war with Nanda with very less troops while Nanda has far large number of troops-Chanakya sent a message to Nanda that the swords of Mauryas soldiers were spewing blood and are blood thirsty.This thing created havoc in the mind of Nanda who already holds a superior army which is times larger than Mauryas.But the psychological effect Chanakya created in the mind of Nanda created an immense fear in his heart.And there Nanda failing to draw up strategies to counter the moves of invading Maurya leading to the surrender of Nanda to Maurya.
In a war,one has to use both physical and psychological strengths for easy victories against blood thirsty enemies.every one has some sort of fear.It is only that you have to wake up that fear in your adversary.

 

[bengalraider]

True, but done forget that we first walk and then run.Our walking process includes the building of IAC.And the running process would be super carriers with nuke propulsion.
Before IAC was planned no shipyard in the country was capable of constructing naval ships of such displacements.But we did and are constructing one .And funds were distributed to other yards for upgradation.
IAC2 will definitely be a larger ship compared to IAC.But a propulsion change decision will be finalized only in 2010 end.

IN is getting some 30 new ships in the coming 5 years which includes most advanced frigates and destroyers.China is currently wetting regarding the safety of its cargo passing through IOR.And a flotilla of carriers will definitely give China a numerous sleepless nights.
The added impact will be having a nuclear propulsion.It is another mental game.One first considered the propulsion of a carrier and then its compliment.
The Philosophy of a war is so simple it states that,"First kill the enemy psychologically and then physically."
Untill 2007 GOI was in mental shock and was bearing the aftermath of 62 war.It is only recently they came out from coma and started looking at the real world in real terms.

When Chandragupta conquered the provinces governed by Alexander clones,and was getting readied for a war with Nanda with very less troops while Nanda has far large number of troops-Chanakya sent a message to Nanda that the swords of Mauryas soldiers were spewing blood and are blood thirsty.This thing created havoc in the mind of Nanda who already holds a superior army which is times larger than Mauryas.But the psychological effect Chanakya created in the mind of Nanda created an immense fear in his heart.And there Nanda failing to draw up strategies to counter the moves of invading Maurya leading to the surrender of Nanda to Maurya.
In a war,one has to use both physical and psychological strengths for easy victories against blood thirsty enemies.every one has some sort of fear.It is only that you have to wake up that fear in your adversary.

Now imagine the psychological effect a super carrier will will have , the PLAN does not have enough long range assets at the moment to shadow both american CBG's and indian CBG's a the same time. if we can pull a fast one on the PLAN by getting the IAC,Vikaramditya and a QE into the water by 2018 it'll be a fait accompli for us ,as for the PLAN any hopes they have of being the masters of the IOR will have been dashed , their planners will lose morale and their rank and file will lose morale.It is true that we need to walk before we can run, but this is only applicable to the field of A/C building as far as operating these machines we are second in experience only to the Americans and the British(The Russians built the first Kiev only in 1973 we already had bombed Chittagong with the vikrant by then).Logistically speaking it's going to be a challenge requiring more support ships(we can decommission the viraat and give her battle group to the QE) nevertheless but if there's one navy in Asia that can pull it off(operating a QE i mean) it's the IN.

Also the QE shall have a great psychological effect on Indian kids(much like the arihant effect). Kids shall be enamored by the navy and want to join once they complete education.

 

[icecoolben]

Arihant was indigenous and thus rose patriotism among youngsters. But ask them if they would wish to see virat's battle group go to ins vikrant2 or indian queen elizabeth, they would all endorse the former. Taking in the queen will take india's logistical nightmares to a whole new level.