Breaking India & Being Different by Rajiv Malhotra - Discussion

[A chauhan]

Malhotra is correct ! Actually it is happening in india, the most important thing that missionaries have is 'money', and they through English medium missionary school playing it well.

 

[balai_c]

Achauhan what is malhotra ji right about ? Can you give us a detailed explanation?

 

[A chauhan]

Achauhan what is malhotra ji right about ? Can you give us a detailed explanation?

what i understood from the summery galaxy posted is that westerners can not accept that Indian views on 'religion' can be correct, some of his thoughts appears to be inspired by the thoughts of Swami Vivekanand on 'dharma'.Even Max muller said that until we get a proof that European languages were inspired by Sanskrit even though they have similarities we cant accept that Sanskrit inspired them or it's mother of languages.

Abrahmic religions were spread through either violence or by systematic and psychological means.Here author focuses on the second method which missionaries are using. However author compares christian belief system with Hindu's and wants to preserve our system.

 

[balai_c]

Yeah that would be true. Missionaries greatest weapon is unlimited supply of vitamin M. Hence weakening of western economy is indeed a blessing in disguise.

 

[A chauhan]

Islamic militancy and extremism can be dealt with law and force, but what missionaries are doing is hard to reverse.

I have some Christian friends, they appear to be SC/ST by looks but they are Christian and they believe in heaven,hell and judgment day and they laugh on Hindu belief of birth cycle! Which forces me to think about clever methods of missionaries, it's not easy to wipe one's faith and sow another but they have done it, hard to reverse.In this Kaliyuga Money can buy anything including
faith.

 

[KS]

Islamic militancy and extremism can be dealt with law and force, but what missionaries are doing is hard to reverse.

That is indeed true.

 

[Virendra]

Rajiv Malhotra had mentioned some scenarios. Scenarios about three fold civlilizational threats to India from - West/US, Radical Islam and China.
Those secnarios were pretty depressing

Three Scenarios for India's Future

I will present three scenarios for India taking into account the global civilizational encounter and India's internal fragments that are in tension with each other. Scenario A is where I shall spend lot of my time. It is a negative scenario. And this has to be discussed and understood before we can move on.

Scenario A is that India's fragments get taken over as parts of the West, Pan-Islam and China. Scenario B is that Indian "culture" succeeds globally but Indian nation-state disappears. ("India is not a nation but a culture."). Scenario C is that India emerges as a thriving nation-state with its own civilization and helps the world.

Scenario A says that India's fragments, that is, all the disruptive forces will be taken over by others. Some parts will go to the West, some parts may belong to pan-Islamic expansion and some may be taken over by China. So India may actually disintegrate or large parts of it may be taken over by others. This I call "fragmentation and disintegration of India" scenario. And I will talk a fair amount about this.

There are people who say "India is not a nation but a culture. So why defend it?" We are not a nation, we are a grand new system, they argue. We are an idea. As long as the culture lives, whether the nation lives or not is immaterial, they say. I consider this scenario B as basically short-lived. If scenario B happens, then it will quickly be followed by scenario A . Soon, neither India will exist, nor its culture. This is because once the nation is not there to act as the container, as the vehicle or the vessel which nurtures and protects and projects its unique culture, then the culture sort of scatters and gets eaten up by various other civilizations. Soon that culture will also dissolve. It will become part of various other entities and lose its original self. So if Indian culture has to exist, it is important for the Indian nation to exist.

And then there is scenario C. It is a positive one which says that India emerges as a thriving nation-state with its own civilization and helps the world. Really, A and C are the only two real scenarios. Scenario B is sort of a very graceful and dignified way of ending up in scenario A. It is a way of saying "OK, we loose with honor. We are finished but we won because our culture thrives." It is like the deer saying, "So what if the tiger eats me up. In the belly of the tiger, I will be alive and you know the tiger runs fast and I will be running fast and I will be part of his DNA and I will nurture him and make him a loving creature from within."

But it does not work because after the deer has been eaten, the tiger remains a tiger. He is just a stronger tiger. So scenario B is kind of a delusionary kind of attitude that you hear very often, particularly from very spiritual minded people who would say: "What nation?! What do you want to defend? The culture is good. It is doing well. They eat our food and listen to our music and do our Yoga and wear our clothes and watch our Bollywood movies . So it does not matter whether there is India or not but as a culture we will survive."

 

[Folk hero]

MOD should make it a sticky.

People can learn a lot from this thread.

 

[agentperry]

people need to run their shops. if they finally break away from india the only thing they know that is shout and collect money in the name of freedom will die out- no body is going anywhere.

 

[Virendra]

The scenario B up there stinks of pseudo sickularism.
I don't think it is so impractical as the author tends to convey.
But A and C are definitely more likely to materialize.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[KS]

^^ None of the scenarios look practical to me...including Scenario C.

India will remain as it is for the forseeable future. Hindu majority with minorities being politically pampered.

When the numbers reach a more equitable proportion, then the real trouble starts. But that is unlikely to happen in our lifetime.

 

[panduranghari]

I found this on IISC Bangalore's website :shocked:

http://www.iisc.ernet.in/prasthu/pages/PP_data/uturn.pdf

When the money dries out, the Americanism will die out. Of this I have absolutely no doubt. The important thing is being more appreciative of Indian culture. Unlike what we see on Indian television - Aping American way of life - we only harbour confusion.

 

[panduranghari]

Islamic militancy and extremism can be dealt with law and force, but what missionaries are doing is hard to reverse.

I have some Christian friends, they appear to be SC/ST by looks but they are Christian and they believe in heaven,hell and judgment day and they laugh on Hindu belief of birth cycle! Which forces me to think about clever methods of missionaries, it's not easy to wipe one's faith and sow another but they have done it, hard to reverse.In this Kaliyuga Money can buy anything including
faith.

You can fight ignorance with knowledge. I get knocks on my door from evangelists from Christians and Muslims. Never have I disrespected them but in every instance I have shown how their opinions and ideas were derived from east.

 

[niharjhatn]

You can fight ignorance with knowledge. I get knocks on my door from evangelists from Christians and Muslims. Never have I disrespected them but in every instance I have shown how their opinions and ideas were derived from east.

Once some christians missionaries visited a relatives house (he isn't a country bumpkin any more, but the attitudes of the village never left him). The Christians asked him about his religion etc etc, and then offered him the usual complimentary bible pamphlets. He accepted these gratefully, saying that he has been running out of toilet paper!!

 

[balai_c]

Since this is the Rajiv Malhotra thread, I will try to write my viewpoints about the book, BEING DIFFERENT, and my understanding of the message Rajivji is trying to reach to us:

Let's start with the title: BEING DIFFERENT.Why emphasize the dissimilarity-when the entire world is trying the exact opposite? Modern world is trying to erase differences among nations, when all of humanity is striving to unleash universal brotherhood among all of humanity. Well, to understand this course of action , let's take a look around the world. What causes war, animosity among people, difference of appreciation of each other's culture,music,dance,philosophy and other societal characteristics? Difference is a natural event , every two objects we observe is different in some way, no two humans are identical. Even twin brothers and sisters possess different personalities, not to mention genetic characteristics. Then how can dissolve different difference , that is such a fundamental property of nature?

Rajiv Malhotra introduces several interesting terminologies to emphasize his analysis of differences among West and India (his primary goal in his book).
Let's start with "History-centrism". We all have histories of our own, right ? Then what is point of quarreling over something as innocuous as this? History is simply the tale of one's past. The problem starts when a party imposes their version over others as a non negotiable , non changeable doctrine that does not accommodate the story of others as a religious duty. That brings them close to conflict with others. History also enslaves them from pursuing their own mystical experience , an example of which I will present shortly.

Spirituality is an integral part of any society, whether the resident atheists like it or not. Spirituality was man's first tool to make sense of the world around him. Spirituality turned to philosophy (or in Indian case Darshana). Let's undertake a thought experiment. Let's say one day the world will face an armageddon, and all the holy books of all religions(including Hinduism of course) is destroyed beyond any point of salvage. Now , how will mankind recuperate this situation. A Dharmik person will simply undergo samadhi, attain atmasakshatkar and regain all lost knowledge. Rajiv ji asked this to a bunch of Christians in USA and the answer astounded to no bounds. They said that they will not able to do so, because apparently only Jesus -the son of God can obtain that knowledge for them. Human body according to them is suffering from the Original Sin, and is unfit to receive divine knowledge without intervention from the supreme Deity. Now, this is interesting, apparently History , the non-negotiable exclusivist history is preventing them from regaining something that they hold so dear. This is robbing the of their freedom.

 

[balai_c]

So, how to deal with difference? Well, there are two ways to do this. First one would be to destroy difference, the second one to respect and cherish difference. In the first strategy, let's say we all want to be alike, uphold a neutral 3rd party standard. Now the question here would be - who's standard? Who gets to make the choice? Now, as we observe in the past- let's say two people fighting , each trying to impose his will over the other. Now, in this scenario, the stronger person obviously wins, loser obeying him. Similarly in the contest between ethnicities, or between civilization, the dominant entity will always try to impose it's view , it's way of life over the weaker protagonist.This is the most observed phenomenon all over the world. These days- we have Western way of life dominating all over the globe. In order to fit in , weaker civilizations trying to ape the "superior" ways of the west, regardless of ,merits, so that the embarrassing difference dissolves away. They feel if they do not appear different , they will be accepted more readily. This is something we are all familiar with, in our lifetimes and before us. Rajiv ji calls this "difference anxiety from below". But as we decimate our way of life in the elusive quest for acceptance from West, we are also destroying a unique way of life that could develop many philosophies, many great technologies that could benefit the world at large. Destruction of difference would be wiping out many indigenous cultures all around the world.

The second way would be that of respecting and cherishing difference. This is where the Indian experience comes in. India has the unique distinction of being the world's most heterogeneous country. Now how did this happen? One word: Dharma. Dharma allows one to experience divinity in any way they can, without interference of one's basic rights in the quest. This freedom also extended to language, arts, and any other social faculty. Difference is respected, because nature allows difference, hence the bewildering diversity of culture.No one needs to conform to any overarching plenary religious dictates, no persecution because of faith or language, or any other perceived dissimilarities.

 

[panduranghari]

Once some christians missionaries visited a relatives house (he isn't a country bumpkin any more, but the attitudes of the village never left him). The Christians asked him about his religion etc etc, and then offered him the usual complimentary bible pamphlets. He accepted these gratefully, saying that he has been running out of toilet paper!!

Now now. I think Bible is just as relevant to humankind like Gita or Koran is. Its the interpretation of the followers which makes the attitude unhealthy. Bible should be respected just like you would respect Gita. Just a thought. best wishes.

 

[panduranghari]

So, how to deal with difference? Well, there are two ways to do this. First one would be to destroy difference, the second one to respect and cherish difference. In the first strategy, let's say we all want to be alike, uphold a neutral 3rd party standard. Now the question here would be - who's standard? Who gets to make the choice? Now, as we observe in the past- let's say two people fighting , each trying to impose his will over the other. Now, in this scenario, the stronger person obviously wins, loser obeying him. Similarly in the contest between ethnicities, or between civilization, the dominant entity will always try to impose it's view , it's way of life over the weaker protagonist.This is the most observed phenomenon all over the world. These days- we have Western way of life dominating all over the globe. In order to fit in , weaker civilizations trying to ape the "superior" ways of the west, regardless of ,merits, so that the embarrassing difference dissolves away. They feel if they do not appear different , they will be accepted more readily. This is something we are all familiar with, in our lifetimes and before us. Rajiv ji calls this "difference anxiety from below". But as we decimate our way of life in the elusive quest for acceptance from West, we are also destroying a unique way of life that could develop many philosophies, many great technologies that could benefit the world at large. Destruction of difference would be wiping out many indigenous cultures all around the world.

The second way would be that of respecting and cherishing difference. This is where the Indian experience comes in. India has the unique distinction of being the world's most heterogeneous country. Now how did this happen? One word: Dharma. Dharma allows one to experience divinity in any way they can, without interference of one's basic rights in the quest. This freedom also extended to language, arts, and any other social faculty. Difference is respected, because nature allows difference, hence the bewildering diversity of culture.No one needs to conform to any overarching plenary religious dictates, no persecution because of faith or language, or any other perceived dissimilarities.

I like where your thought process is going. Please add to this.

Empty vessels make more noise - Nature abhors vacuum - Ignorance is Bliss.

I think these 3 proverbs encompass the ideology of west and Indians who think they are western.

 

[anoop_mig25]

i donot know about the book but somewhere in past i read in net or in newspaper by a foreign diplomat about indian politicans that they may may be corruput but become united when it comes to attack on their country (by external or internal )

 

[niharjhatn]

Now now. I think Bible is just as relevant to humankind like Gita or Koran is. Its the interpretation of the followers which makes the attitude unhealthy. Bible should be respected just like you would respect Gita. Just a thought. best wishes.

A religion as inherently divisive as the Abrahamical religions will unfortunately never get the nod from me.