Brace For Darker Days Ahead

[Known_Unknown]

I am one of the biggest critics of the right wing activities, and I have popularized use of the term "cow piss connoisseurs" to refer to a certain set of right wingers who defend the indefensible when it comes to RW groups. Neither do I obfuscate, nor am I in la la land.

On the other hand, you certainly appear to be in la la land. You've come up with this list of RW goondaism/criminality. Have you noticed though, that your list is quite comprehensive? You will be hard pressed to dig out more stuff about the RW groups in India. What I was referring to was actually communal riots. Communal riots have been a regular occurrence in India from decades. Communal violence has happened in states ruled by every political party, at every period in independent India's history. Communal riots have absolutely nothing to do with whether the BJP is in power or some other party. Communal riots have decreased in India in general, due to economic progress. States that are economically backward like UP and WB, have the maximum communal riots today.

Try to understand the point I am making. For all the incidents you have listed, there is absolutely no indication that communal riots decrease when party X or party Y is in power. Communal riots decrease when economic progress is visible, and growth is constant.

Maybe your definition of a "communal riot" is different than mine. The incidents I listed also fall under the gambit of the term and no, that list is not comprehensive, I've left out the 2008 Karnataka and 1997 Gujarat attacks against Christians plus the numerous small scale acts of violence that do not appear in the headlines.

It is extremely simplistic and absurd to say that economic progress = decrease in communal rioting. Riots have occurred in China, US, Australia, UK, France, some of the most developed and economically advanced countries in the world. Riots occur due to underlying social tension between different groups, and until this tension is removed by proactive efforts of a socially conscious government, no amount of economic progress can fix it. Part of these efforts is affirmative action (which unfortunately, the Congress has taken to extreme lengths in the Indian case), and the other part is the promotion of equality, liberalism, egalitarianism, and suppression of all groups which oppose these values.

As for your assertion of there being "no indication that riots decrease when party X or Y is in power", look at the statistics honestly and tell me whether you don't think that both the scale of the violence as well as the number of headline incidents haven't jumped since the "Hindutva" movement surfaced in the early 1990's.

In fact, I challenge you to provide a comparable list to the one I have provided for the preceding two decades, i.e. 1970's and 1980's. Let us see if you can find any evidence of large scale persecution of minorities (or even of the majority) in that period. I can think of one such incident, the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, that's all.

 

[Daredevil]

In fact, I challenge you to provide a comparable list to the one I have provided for the preceding two decades, i.e. 1970's and 1980's. Let us see if you can find any evidence of large scale persecution of minorities (or even of the majority) in that period. I can think of one such incident, the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, that's all.

Nellie massacre in 1983

It happened when Indira Gandhi was PM.

Not even one convicted. More here

The ‘worst ever’ anti-Muslim riot was not post-Godhra | Niti Central

 

[Daredevil]

Nellie massacre in 1983

It happened when Indira Gandhi was PM.

Not even one convicted. More here

The 'worst ever' anti-Muslim riot was not post-Godhra | Niti Central

Also another one (not exactly riot but a state-sponsored massacre)

Hashimpura massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another one - Bhagalpur Riots in 1989 - around 1900 people killed - under Rajiv Gandhi's rule at centre and Congress in state govt in Bihar

http://teleradproviders.com/nbn/editorialstory.php?id=OTg3MA==

 

[civfanatic]

Was India on the verge of collapse in the early 90s?

 

[Known_Unknown]

Nellie massacre in 1983

It happened when Indira Gandhi was PM.

Not even one convicted. More here

The 'worst ever' anti-Muslim riot was not post-Godhra | Niti Central

How is this an anti-Muslim riot? The victims were targeted not because they were Muslims, but because they were outsiders. Outsiders have been targeted for a long time in Assam, whether they be Biharis, Bengalis or Bangladeshi Muslims. Bangladeshis simply comprise the largest and fastest growing group of outsiders hence they're the most targeted.

In Gujarat, Muslims were targeted because they were Muslims, i.e. a perfect definition of an anti-Muslim riot.

This is what I call obfuscation. Niti Central seems like a propaganda machine for the BJP.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Also another one (not exactly riot but a state-sponsored massacre)

Hashimpura massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another one - Bhagalpur Riots in 1989 - around 1900 people killed - under Rajiv Gandhi's rule at centre and Congress in state govt in Bihar

News behind the News

Bhagalpur was orchestrated by the leaders of the Hindutva movement during their Ram Janmabhoomi agitation!

1989 Bhagalpur violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1989, as part of the Ram Janmabhoomi camapaign, which aims to construct a Hindu temple at Ayodhya in place of the Babri mosque, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) had organized a "Ramshila" procession in Bhagalpur. The procession aimed to collect bricks (shilas) for the proposed Ram temple at Ayodhya. One such procession passing through Fatehpur village provoked brickbatting and arson on 22 October. Prior to the outbreak of the riots, two false rumors about the killing of Hindu students started circulating: one rumor stated that nearly 200 Hindu university students had been killed by the Muslims, while another rumor stated that 31 Hindu boys had been murdered with their bodies dumped in a well at the Sanskrit College.[4] Apart from these, the political and criminal rivalries in the area also played a role in inciting the riots.[5]

This is exactly my point! The rise of the Hindutva movement/Hindu extremism co-incides with the rise of minority persecution in India! Thanks for making my case for me!

 

[Daredevil]

Bhagalpur was orchestrated by the leaders of the Hindutva movement during their Ram Janmabhoomi agitation!

1989 Bhagalpur violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



This is exactly my point! The rise of the Hindutva movement/Hindu extremism co-incides with the rise of minority persecution in India! Thanks for making my case for me!

The point is the so called secular governments have more Hindu-muslim riots under their watch than the so called communal Hindutva governments. So, you failed in your argument that Hindutva parties are fascist and Nazi like because they have far less riots under their watch while one would expect more riots which didn't happen.

And there are many more riots under the so called secular governments of Samaj Wadi Party, Trinamool Congress party, Congress party etc.

If you wish let's do a statistics on how many riots happened under whose watch - Congress/UPA or BJP/NDS - at both centre and state level.

 

[arnabmit]

@Known_Unknown

Everything in life is balanced...

When for years politicians are doing muslim appeasement & muslim welfare at the cost of the majority, then the majority citizens are bound to go anti-muslim from time to time...

Treat muslims as equal citizens without any reservations & quota and communal riots will never happen.

 

[Daredevil]

Here is a comprehensive list of all riots that have happened in India from 1950-1995, state wise and date wise. Please go through how many riots have happend under the watch of secular Congress government

[pdf]http://swd.ucsd.edu/india.pdf[/pdf]

 

[Known_Unknown]

The point is the so called secular governments have more Hindu-muslim riots under their watch than the so called communal Hindutva governments. So, you failed in your argument that Hindutva parties are fascist and Nazi like because they have far less riots under their watch while one would expect more riots which didn't happen.

And there are many more riots under the so called secular governments of Samaj Wadi Party, Trinamool Congress party, Congress party etc.

If you wish let's do a statistics on how many riots happened under whose watch - Congress/UPA or BJP/NDS - at both centre and state level.

That is a false comparison and one that is pushed by right-wingers to whitewash their crimes. The question is not which party comprised the state government when the riots occurred-that is quite irrelevant, the question is, who is responsible for the riots. Who instigated the riot, who led the charge and who benefited from the results.

If BJP/VHP/BD/RSS terrorists start a riot in a state governed by the Congress, it would be foolish to blame the state government in a knee jerk fashion. Similarly, if Congress workers rioted under a BJP government, it would be idiotic to blame the BJP. The BJP has nothing to gain and everything to lose if they allowed Congress workers to riot, in and same goes for a Cong govt. The only time a government can be blamed for a riot would be if the riot was carried out by its own party workers, as in 2002/BJP or 1984/Congress.

Now coming back to all the examples I provided as well as some of the examples you provided, the instigators and perpetrators were Hindutva fanatics, regardless of which party formed the state government. In the past two decades, these extremists have been able to inflict ever greater violence and bloodshed because of their growing numbers as well as state patronage in some cases such as 2002.

This is all glaringly obvious to anyone who reads the daily news. Only those with an ideological agenda will tend to ignore the facts.

 

[nrj]

Brace for darker days.

I mean literally. Because Marathwada is hit with drought like never before. So electricity cuts are going to increase in coming weeks. No water, no electricity. Whatever produce farmers have got will be bought by State Govt at ridiculous price. I don't care if they announce another loan waiver scheme, at least it will save few souls from suicide.

BJP takes the street against state government but has nothing to offer other than bandhs, protests, brownie points.

People do not see solution to situation coming from anyone. So yeah all they can do is Brace the darker days.

 

[Daredevil]

That is a false comparison and one that is pushed by right-wingers to whitewash their crimes. The question is not which party comprised the state government when the riots occurred-that is quite irrelevant, the question is, who is responsible for the riots. Who instigated the riot, who led the charge and who benefited from the results.

If BJP/VHP/BD/RSS terrorists start a riot in a state governed by the Congress, it would be foolish to blame the state government in a knee jerk fashion. Similarly, if Congress workers rioted under a BJP government, it would be idiotic to blame the BJP. The BJP has nothing to gain and everything to lose if they allowed Congress workers to riot, in and same goes for a Cong govt. The only time a government can be blamed for a riot would be if the riot was carried out by its own party workers, as in 2002/BJP or 1984/Congress.

Now coming back to all the examples I provided as well as some of the examples you provided, the instigators and perpetrators were Hindutva fanatics, regardless of which party formed the state government. In the past two decades, these extremists have been able to inflict ever greater violence and bloodshed because of their growing numbers as well as state patronage in some cases such as 2002.

This is all glaringly obvious to anyone who reads the daily news. Only those with an ideological agenda will tend to ignore the facts.

Then do check who is responsible for the riots before BJP came to power. You are conveniently interchanging BJP for Hindus and Hindus for BJP. You and I don't know for sure that those who instigated and participated in riots are from BJP or Congress. There are enough instances where Congress party was actively involved in instigating riots - Sikh riots, Riots in Hyderabad, even in Gujarat riots congress party workers were involved.

Your logic also doesn't make sense as to why who is in power is not important. A correlation between riots and congress ruled governments indicate that Congress has turned blind eye either because it instigated it or because it was politically convenient or administratively failed. That is why it is important to see statistically under whose rule riots took place more because according to you BJP is a nazi/fascist party - there should be more riots against muslims because there is nothing to stop Hindus from indulging in riots. But the statistics prove otherwise and so your logic fails.

 

[SilentKiller]

My view is that non-futuristic approach of government.
in 2007/08 it gave large loan waver and other subsidies.
Started too many schemes as vote politics.

world economy crisis from 2008 - 2009/10 lead to further issues.
Large trade deficient due to surge in international crude prices and govt kept on giving undue subsidies.
Lower of indian Textile exports (2nd largest employer sector of india).
Improper pricing of food by middlemen leading to higher inflation but farmer not getting any benefit.
As i know that even if onion is 30 or 40 in mandi, a farmer will get on 4 or 5 for it. as he has no option, sell it or let it rot and get nothing.

Trading in Gold was permitted.
Too much import of gold as india is largest buyer of gold..

Just my view, feel free to correct me if anything is misstated.

 

[SilentKiller]

Then do check who is responsible for the riots before BJP came to power. You are conveniently interchanging BJP for Hindus and Hindus for BJP. You and I don't know for sure that those who instigated and participated in riots are from BJP or Congress. There are enough instances where Congress party was actively involved in instigating riots - Sikh riots, Riots in Hyderabad, even in Gujarat riots congress party workers were involved.

Your logic also doesn't make sense as to why who is in power is not important. A correlation between riots and congress ruled governments indicate that Congress has turned blind eye either because it instigated it or because it was politically convenient or administratively failed. That is why it is important to see statistically under whose rule riots took place more because according to you BJP is a nazi/fascist party - there should be more riots against muslims because there is nothing to stop Hindus from indulging in riots. But the statistics prove otherwise and so your logic fails.

But there are statistics that where ever there is BJP govt now, there is moral policing, riots violence against minorities.
take eg of Karnataka where girls were hit for going to pubs/disc and no action...
Congress is no angel either, being from punjab, what congress tried to do in late 70's and this lead to terrorism in punjab. we know it too

All politicians use religion as means to keep their seats intact. no exception.
this time will support AAP, provided they bring good candidates.

 

[Daredevil]

But there are statistics that where ever there is BJP govt now, there is moral policing, riots violence against minorities.
take eg of Karnataka where girls were hit for going to pubs/disc and no action...
Congress is no angel either, being from punjab, what congress tried to do in late 70's and this lead to terrorism in punjab. we know it too

All politicians use religion as means to keep their seats intact. no exception.
this time will support AAP, provided they bring good candidates.

Exactly my point. No need to put either Congress or BJP on high pedestal when it comes to Hindu-Muslim riots. Both are equally culpable of using it when it was politically convenient. Let us judge these parties on how well they take vast majority of our people out of poverty and towards prosperity.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Then do check who is responsible for the riots before BJP came to power. You are conveniently interchanging BJP for Hindus and Hindus for BJP. You and I don't know for sure that those who instigated and participated in riots are from BJP or Congress. There are enough instances where Congress party was actively involved in instigating riots - Sikh riots, Riots in Hyderabad, even in Gujarat riots congress party workers were involved.

I can't help if you are intent on burying your head in the sand. All the instances I cited from the Mumbai riots to Gujarat and Kandhamal as well as your example of the Bhagalpur riots were instigated by RW Hindutva groups whether from the VHP, BD, BJP, SS etc. Of the two other examples you provided, one was not a riot at all, and the other was outsider bashing in Assam.

If anyone's failed to make their point, it's clearly you.

Let me reiterate here again that my original point was about the jump in minority persecution since the rise of the Hindutva movement, and not riots per se, because RWingers love to obfuscate by using the umbrella term "riots" to club everything from gang-wars to ethnic strife together to hide their crimes.

Your logic also doesn't make sense as to why who is in power is not important. A correlation between riots and congress ruled governments indicate that Congress has turned blind eye either because it instigated it or because it was politically convenient or administratively failed. That is why it is important to see statistically under whose rule riots took place more because according to you BJP is a nazi/fascist party - there should be more riots against muslims because there is nothing to stop Hindus from indulging in riots. But the statistics prove otherwise and so your logic fails.

Again you make a false comparison. Your examples of riots under Congress can be classified under two types:

1. Incompetence
2. Complicity

I am asserting that in case of type #2, BJP and their Hindutva bedfellows are far more guilty than the Congress. I have substantiated my claim with examples as above.

In case of type#1, all governments are incompetent to varying degrees, but incompetence is less criminal than complicity. An incompetent police officer may be dismissed, but an officer complicit in a crime may be jailed depending on the severity of the crime. I hope you will appreciate this logic.

Even to this end, you have provided no data to suggest that there were more riots due to incompetence during Congress rule, than there were due to incompetence during BJP rule.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

A couple of slides which tell the tale, of what went missing and what needs to be done:

Look at the last 2 slides a little closer and see why the economic slide will continue, in India the most basic common sense gets politicised for petty gains. We are psyched up to such proportions that the most sensible things tend to be discarded for imaginary larger good.

Very well, welcome to an economic growth where 6-7% will look remarkable!

 

[ersakthivel]

I was one of those who got sucked into the silver bandwagon and lost money. People were saying it will cross 1L in no time and I bought at 65k level.

The thing with gold is that it is evergreen investment. For today and tomorrow. Make jewelry for occasions etc.

Many of my friends did the same.

Be very careful with the Gold's value. It is more dangerous than silver.Many central banks around the world are stashing up gold in hundreds of tons. Why? They don't want to invest in US dollar , because US economy is doing very badly and they expect the dollar to slide for a while against precious metals. The first to do it was RBI of India . It bought 500 tons when gold was 2.5 times less valuable than today a few years back. Since then central banks of China, Korea and many other nations are following this trend.

But ONLY FOR A WHILE. Once US economy recovers they will unload this stash of Gold into open market. Other than Indians who account for more than 20 percent of global gold consumption for jewelry, no other nation's people are known to stash gold.

Of all the metals in the world more only gold has no specific purpose of use, so than more than 80 percent of it's production is stashed away as merely a store of value in times of crises.

So when punters reverse their bet on Gold anything may happen. Remember from 1993 to 2003 gold price was actually very stable. Why there was no demand for gold then?And why there is a sudden demand now?Then why it is tripling in 5 years all of the sudden? Rule of economy --Anything that goes up too high in value quickly will also come down too fast.

 

[arnabmit]

BTW... you do realize that people are looking up to Modi, and not BJP? If Modi is not the PM candidate, very few will vote for BJP. Right now both Congress and BJP (without Modi) are known devils... whereas Modi is the messiah. If Modi doesn't live up to the huge expectation he himself has set, his downfall will also be the fastest in history!

I can't help if you are intent on burying your head in the sand. All the instances I cited from the Mumbai riots to Gujarat and Kandhamal as well as your example of the Bhagalpur riots were instigated by RW Hindutva groups whether from the VHP, BD, BJP, SS etc. Of the two other examples you provided, one was not a riot at all, and the other was outsider bashing in Assam.

If anyone's failed to make their point, it's clearly you.

Let me reiterate here again that my original point was about the jump in minority persecution since the rise of the Hindutva movement, and not riots per se, because RWingers love to obfuscate by using the umbrella term "riots" to club everything from gang-wars to ethnic strife together to hide their crimes.



Again you make a false comparison. Your examples of riots under Congress can be classified under two types:

1. Incompetence
2. Complicity

I am asserting that in case of type #2, BJP and their Hindutva bedfellows are far more guilty than the Congress. I have substantiated my claim with examples as above.

In case of type#1, all governments are incompetent to varying degrees, but incompetence is less criminal than complicity. An incompetent police officer may be dismissed, but an officer complicit in a crime may be jailed depending on the severity of the crime. I hope you will appreciate this logic.

Even to this end, you have provided no data to suggest that there were more riots due to incompetence during Congress rule, than there were due to incompetence during BJP rule.

 

[ersakthivel]

There was an article recently about a Muslim locality in Modi's own constituency in Gujarat. You should read it, it will be an eye opener for you.

EDIT: Found it-

The Hardships of Being Muslim Under India's Modi - NYTimes.com



What are Muslims in Gujarat supposed to do but praise Modi when interviewed? Do they want to get beat up or murdered? Modi controls Gujarat like his own personal fiefdom. Have you heard of the Sohrabuddin fake encounter case and how Amit Shah, Modi's right hand man and the senior-most minister in his cabinet was found to be personally involved? What about that woman minister who was convicted and sentenced to life for her part in the riots? Just a few days ago Modi welcomed a gun-toting former MP from the Congress who has several criminal cases against him into the state BJP.

Why do educated intellectuals like yourself feel that master manipulators like Modi are the only solution to the massive problems facing the country?

If you really want to talk development, Nitish Kumar's Bihar has done far better than Gujarat and NK personally is honest, educated and does not incite one section of society against another in a bid to get votes.



The difference is that in one Gujarat, those killings were carried out by the active connivance of the government in power. You elect a government to govern, not to collaborate with murderous mobs to hunt you down and kill you.

Communal riots will not decrease by magic-they will decrease only if communal parties like the BJP and their murderous kar sevaks are kept out of power and their wings clipped as far as possible.

Do you know who is the real Nitish Kumar? he was the brain behind the lalau prasad yadhav and fell out with him latter and formed his own political base on some Mahadalit or some other casteist principle. And many of his MLAs and ministers are criminals. He looks good. Because Lalu was so bad that's all. There is no way you can compare him to Modi.

You should also know that within the first three days of Gujarat riots in 2002, as many as 150 plus Hindus fell to Police bullets. How many Hindus fell to Police bullets in the anti sikh riots in delhi after Indira Gandhi's death?

What was Assam government doing when thousands were killed in riots recently?

Modi can never do what Hitler did because he will lead a coalition in most probability.Many influential people in the US and west hate him not because of their love for Gujarath Muslims,but with the suspicion that he may curtail the funding for many NGOs indulging right now in conversion activities in many rural poor areas.

They just gloss themselves as guardians of gujarath Muslims. Does Obama administration gets UN certificate that all people who are going to be killed are terrorists ,every time before a drone strike is ordered?Or does USAF helicopter gunships have magic bullets that will kill only terrorists in Afganisthan?

Modi will give a corruption free govt in all probability. And will lead with a robust economic growth with efficient corruption free government.Many people in India and abroad don't like it.

In the recent municipality election in Ahmedabad more than 140 muslim majority segments went to BJP. How do you explain this, if he is pursuing Muslims day in and day out.Ask the NYT correspondents to figure out the reason behind it.Modi cannot terrorize muslims with whole of the Indian english language press looking with a lense in their hand during elections conducted by election commision whose boses are sonia loyalists.

Lot of educated people are supporting Modi because they don't like the benami system of government run in carpet bagger style by the mother-son duo of Sonia and Rahul. Look at the 2G scam. Do you really believe the Congress line that DMK was solely responsible for it. Chidambaram cleared the spectrum sales against the advice of his own officers. Considering the economic knowledge of Chdamabaram , What is the reason behind it.

India will be reduced to Italy's status if this duo is allowed another run.During NDA regime's time the open market borrowing of the government was 46000 crores.Now it is 4.65 lakh crores.Ten times rasie. That and the monumental corruption is the reason for slowing economy and