Battle of Kohima and Imphal World war 2 Forgotten martyrs

[Ray]

As I said Gandhiji was always frustrated, for example when civil-disobedience was about to start then suddenly Gandhiji gave some proposals(with no connection with India's independence) to British that if these were accepted movement would be postponed.

Now where is our freedom and where are those?

In 1939 when Netaji wanted to start freedom movement then Gnadhiji said India should not dsturb when british is in real danger(then WW2 started) but same Gandhiji started Quit India movement in 1942 when WW2 was still going on.

I dont think BIA as traitors, just think them poor people forced to enlist in Army for money. Most of them did not like British but forced to join for $$$$.

And Indian soldiers is always faithful to one who gives him namak

And those who supported the British including the politicians?

They are angels?

As I said Gandhiji was always frustrated, for example when civil-disobedience was about to start then suddenly Gandhiji gave some proposals(with no connection with India's independence) to British that if these were accepted movement would be postponed.

if what you say is correct, would it not be armtwisting and is that very moral?

and Gandhi was a very moral soul!

In 1939 when Netaji wanted to start freedom movement then Gnadhiji said India should not dsturb when british is in real danger(then WW2 started) but same Gandhiji started Quit India movement in 1942 when WW2 was still going on.

Again, if you say is what is right, then he seems to not appear to be a man of his word.

Do you think I should believe this?

 

[ITBP]

And those who supported the British including the politicians?

They are angels?

As I said, apart from very few wannabes Indian people did not like British, but was forced to to attend job because of hunger.

if what you say is correct, would it not be armtwisting and is that very moral?

and Gandhi was a very moral soul!

Again, if you say is what is right, then he seems to not appear to be a man of his word.

Do you think I should believe this?

Never said Gandhiji was soul that's why I said he suffered from frustration.

Read some history book, you will know what I am saying all is correct.

I think your problem is you quote others with out properly reading their comment.

 

[Ray]

As I said, apart from very few wannabes Indian people did not like British, but was forced to to attend job because of hunger.



Never said Gandhiji was soul that's why I said he suffered from frustration.

Read some history book, you will know what I am saying all is correct.

I think your problem is you quote others with out properly reading their comment.

I am well conversant with history.

Thank you all the same.

That I know more is proved by the fact that you did not know that Gandhi served the British in their Army.

And that put paid to your diatribe against other Indian who was also in the British Indian Army.

So, doctor heal thyself as the saying goes.

You require an ocean of education and not me!

I don't quote out of context.

You denigrate valour. You do not observe the circumstances of those times and you comment on people with contemporary mindset.

Are you fair?

Why did your ancestors not rebel and can anyone say that they were listless and subservient?

Yes, they can if they look at them with contemporary mindset.

But if you observe the conditions then, sure they were burning with fire, but they had not the tools or support.

Be kind to the people of yesteryears for their actions for we do not know what they were suffering and how they did not have the tools to rebel in those times.

Have Indians, who are so judgemental now stopped rape, poverty etc that is happen today? Why not? Where are they if they love India and talk big today? Why are they not acting?

They haven't since they are not in a position to do so.

But people like you and of your ilk, in posterity, will condemn us Indians of today!

But will they be justified?

Think that over, before being judgemental.

Nehru gave away a part of Kashmir, he gave away Aksai Chin and he gave away Coco Island. Were they his father's property? How come the people then did not protest?

Indira Gandhi gave away Katchatevu. None complained.

Why are they protesting now?

Because the circumstance were not there and the silly Indian mindset to deify leaders is what caused all the issue.

It is applicable to all the action of all our leader pre and post Independence.

We are steeped in the Mai Baap psychology.

So Gandhi was a great chap and Indian soldier bad. The Indian soldiers fought for the British.

When explained that so did Gandhi, the excuse is Gandhi was 'mental evolving'.

Something like the justification of Sanjay Jha!

 

[ITBP]

I am well conversant with history.

Thank you all the same.

That I know more is proved by the fact that you did not know that Gandhi served the British in their Army.

And that put paid to your diatribe against other Indian who was also in the British Indian Army.

So, doctor heal thyself as the saying goes.

You require an ocean of education and not me!

Gandhiji did all those during early years of WW1 and South African regional wars. If you knew history you would know what I said about Tripuri congress and civil-disobedience. But you doubted them.

Please, I beg you find a book read them. Instead of posting here long OT comments.

I don't quote out of context.

You do.

One must have the courage and morals to stand up for reality and understand the compulsions of the time which made one do what.

For what I said

As I said, apart from very few wannabes Indian people did not like British, but was forced to to attend job because of hunger.

But you did not read this so you said

Why did your ancestors not rebel and can anyone say that they were listless and subservient?

Yes, they can if they look at them with contemporary mindset.

Have Indians, who are so judgemental now stopped rape, poverty etc that is happen today? Why not? Where are they if they love India and talk big today? Why are they not acting?

What is the connection between rape and BIA?

Nehru gave away a part of Kashmir, he gave away Aksai Chin and he gave away Coco Island. Were they his father's property? How come the people then did not protest?

Because they were average man, and to average man $$$$ comes first. And Hence BIA was recruited from average Indians, so I said it mercenary army.

So Gandhi was a great chap and Indian soldier bad. The Indian soldiers fought for the British.

When explained that so did Gandhi, the excuse is Gandhi was 'mental evolving'.

Something like the justification of Sanjay Jha!

Never said Indian soldiers were bad. I said BIA a mercenary

I dont think BIA as traitors, just think them poor people forced to enlist in Army for money. Most of them did not like British but forced to join for $$$$.

And Indian soldiers is always faithful to one who gives him namak

and Gandhi was under evolution, about evolution what i said to you please for God's sake have a look on history book instead of wondering here.

None of us are perfect, we thrive to achieve perfection so please read a history book.

Thanks, I conclude.

 

[Ray]

@ITBP.

The issue is that you are focused in a limited field of view.

You sure require to enlarge your vision to encompass all the issue and the background to realise what is what.

The issue is simple. You call the BIA mercenary. Fine.

Gandhi also served in the British Forces. Now did he do it because of conviction or was he too a mercenary?

Both are of the same mindset or are they not.

Are you aware how the Civil Disobedience Movement was responsible for leaving bright Indian minds illiterate because they were asked to boycott college and schools?

Gandhi became a hero, but what about those who became illiterate and none there to educate them thereafter?

and all they got was paltry sums as "Freedom Fighter" after Independence and had to work hard and run from pillar to post to prove so, while crooks got the same through Congress political patronage.

Notwithstanding your pretensions of knowledge, you really don't know.

You should have lived in the times to hear those who went through it, even if one did not live those times.

 

[ITBP]

@Ray sir I understand the situation which forced Indians to join BIA. India back then was very poor, leaders could only give promise, but can you eat promise for your hunger? No.

So some people were forced to join Army as then they could have used that money of their salary for their family.

To sum it up, Indians saw British Indian army as field of livelihood an opportunity of employment, they simply joined for $$$. Not for extra loyalty to British.

As for Gandhiji he at first was an Englishman in Indian skin. But later he changed a lot.

Are you aware how the Civil Disobedience Movement was responsible for leaving bright Indian minds illiterate because they were asked to boycott college and schools?

And what makes you think I support boycott of school and college? Gandhiji made many mistakes it is one of them.

You should have lived in the times to hear those who went through it, even if one did not live those times.

I fully understand it, that's why I again and again said poor people saw BIA as a field of employment and they joined BIA for $$$ not for loyalty to British. I already said this many times.

 

[Voldemort]

I dont understand how difficult is this. Britain was ruling India. Everything from police, army, Railways,etc was under the British. If Indians worked in those services, they were not doing it out of love for the British/India but to feed themselves. So there is no reason to be proud of anything that British Indian Army has done. End of the day, they were serving the Queen.


Especially during the Battle of Britain in 1940, Gandhi resisted calls for massive civil disobedience movements that came from within as well as outside his party, stating he did not seek India's independence out of the ashes of a destroyed Britain.

 

[Peter]

netaji was great. But it doesn't means other were inferior. What about bhagat singh. Many calls netaji as the one who first formed indian military but what about Vasudev Balwant Phadke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
he too left govt job and later formed army and fought against british. How all patriots was fake? What about bhagat singh,azad, gandhi,patel ? @Peter

I was comparing Nehru and Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@ITBP noob , were did I talked about indian soldered serving british. I was talking of freedom fighter. Please read my last posts instead of jumping in thread directly

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

I was comparing Nehru and Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose.

why you want to compare? Why. Though nehru did some mistakes but he have his some good points too.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

gandhi was a lawyer, as far I know. He was there against british, did some great changes there. I didn't found any other book except one here quoted saying that he served british.
.
there was a book saying gandhi's brahmyacharya is fake. And all that crap.

 

[Peter]

gandhi was a lawyer, as far I know. He was there against british, did some great changes there. I didn't found any other book except one here quoted saying that he served british.
.
there was a book saying gandhi's brahmyacharya is fake. And all that crap.

You probably do not know the fact that during his time in South Africa,more specifically during the Boer War, Gandhi did serve the British. Also if you have read his autobiography you will get a more clear picture of him.

 

[Voldemort]

why you want to compare? Why. Though nehru did some mistakes but he have his some good points too.

Lets see some good points of Nehru.

The Kashmir accession (1947)



When India was ruled by Britain, there were some states directly under British control, while some were princely states which were allowed to be autonomous till they paid taxes to the British. During partition, the British prepared the Instrument of Accession and gave a choice to these princely states to join the dominion of their choice, either India or Pakistan. Kashmir had a majority Muslim population, ruled by Hari Singh. The British wanted Hari Singh to accede to Pakistan but the Raja wanted to remain independent.

Meanwhile, there were tribal invasions to Kashmir from Pakistan and the Raja decided to sign the Instrument of Accesion in favour India. But Louis Mountbatten, added an additional sentence in the Instrument of Accesion particularly for Kashmir, which now said that people of Kashmir will in future decide whether to choose India, or Pakistan.



By this time, Kashmir was already occupied by Invading tribals. India fought back the tribals and chased the Pathans as far as upto Muzaffarbad. India should have used the legality of Instrument of Accession to fight for Kashmir. Instead, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru prematurely promised the UN that a referendum will be held in which Kashmiris can vote and decide their future. It was one of the major mistake committed in independent India which is still the major bone of contention between India and Pakistan.

The Sino-India war (1962)



In March 1959, The Dalai Lama crossed the McMahon Line into India and was granted political asylum. Indian border police began to establish check posts along the McMahon Line, and moved border patrols forward toward the frontier of Tibet as per Nehru's "Forward policy". This resulted in two clashes in August, 1959.



Several senior Indian Army officers labeled the "forward policy" as militarily unwise, on the grounds that the Indian Army was neither militarily nor logistically prepared to deal with Chinese military strength in the frontiers. Nehru assumed that the Chinese would not stand up against an India backed by both the United States and Russia, ignored the advice of the officers. By the end of 1961, Nehru had sent enough Indian Army troops into Aksai Chin to establish about 43 posts on the Ladakh frontier claimed by China. Chinese combat power was organized around an Army with a strength of approximately 4,500 officers and 38,400 soldiers and had gained extensive experience in both mountain and cold weather warfare due the Korean war.



Nehru continued to ignore the advice of his generals about the army's poor state of readiness; he also continued to assume that China would not or could not assert herself against India. The Cuban missile crisis gave China the perfect time to attack. The serious fighting of the 1962 China-India Border War extended from October 10, 1962, until November 20, 1962. As soon as the Cuban crisis ended at the end of October, Chinese army pulled back as US threatened to use Nuclear weapons on China.



India's casualties for the Border War were finally reported as follows:

Killed: 1,383

Captured: 3,968

Missing: 1,696

The phantom of Aksai



Maharaja Hari Singh had added Aksai Chin to the map on the suggestion of William Johnson. In fact, China built a highway through the middle of that region that India didn't know for years.



China captured 45,000 square kilometers of land—an area that makes up about 20 percent of Kashmir and includes a small area that Pakistan ceded to China—and hasn't resigned it yet. A formal cease-fire line was never established.



Nehru did not try to gain back the captured land despite several heated debates in the Council of Ministers. Nehru is reported to have said in Parliament "Not a single blade of grass grows there".

Nehru's failed economic policies



His economic policies deeply hampered the nation. His reliance on socialism and prejudices against the capital systems led India on the brink of crisis in 1960s. Inflation was rising and exports shrinking. The wars with China and Pakistan (1965) deepened the problem. Nehru's policies that public sector should be at the "commanding heights of the economy" and that exports are a necessary evil, which should be diminished, were a failure. Public sector did not live upto the expectations and agricultural growth remained constrained.



India's growth rate averaged less than 4 per cent per annum and this was at a time when the developing world, including Sub-Saharan Africa and other least developed countries, showed a growth rate of 5.2 % per annum.

The right to sanction China over Tibet

Nehru was very anxious for friendship with China. To appease the Chinese, he was taking many such measures. Nehru had turned down the offer of the United States in 1953 which offered India to be a permanent member of the Security Council of UN instead of that Nehru advised to include China in the Security Council. If Nehru had accepted the offer, India would have emerged as extremely strong Nation strategically at the international level several decades ago.

Jawaharlal Nehru's series of generosity towards china did not end just here. Nehru on April 29, 1954 signed an agreement with China as the principle of Panchsheel. With this agreement India accepted Tibet as part of China. Nehru, for the sake of friendship with, without taking Tibet into confidence, approved China's right over Tibet.

Analysts believe that since that very agreement of India geo-political situation in the Himalayas changed forever. Chinese People's Liberation Army in Tibet began the process of expansion, which continues till today. Tibet,The roof of the world, called for protests against China which are still running. The result of China's plans to expand in Tibet, has bolstered China today. Now and then China keeps on violating line of control and even claims Arunachal Pradesh state, as the southern part of Tibet, . Nehru's one mistake has made India pay off heavy losses.

To Mr.Clement Attlee,
Prime Minister of Britain,
10 Downing Street, London.
Dear Mr. Attlee:

I understand from a reliable source that Subhas Chandra Bose, your war criminal, has been allowed to enter Russian territory by Stalin. This is a clear treachery ad betrayal of faith by the Russians. As Russia has been an ally of the British-Americans, it should not have been done. Please take note of it and do what you consider proper and fit.
Yours sincerely,
Jawaharlal Nehru.

 

[Ray]

With all humility, if one reads the archives, one would realise that Nehru gave away one third of Kashmir by wanting the UN to intervene when the Indian Army was on the verge of linking the Uri Punch bulge and knocking at the doors of Muzzafarabad,

Aksai Chin he gave away and then justified it that 'not an inch of grass grows'

He also gave away Coco Island and today it is a Chinese surveillance station in Myanmar.

He lacked strategic vision.

I regret to say that were no highlights of his 'good deeds'.

Where he did go great things is building the dams and the steel plants. That was indeed an excellent piece of work that he did, which has done India well.