Assault Rifle

Discussion in 'Land Forces' started by Vikramaditya, Jul 28, 2009.

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When picking a gun, what would your primary consideration be?

Poll closed Feb 24, 2013.
  1. Accuracy and Range.

    37.6%
  2. Beauty and Curio value.

    3.5%
  3. Reliability.

    51.8%
  4. Weight and Portability.

    1.2%
  5. Eeek! No guns! Only white pigeons!

    5.9%
  1. devhensh

    devhensh Regular Member

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    I would like DRDO/OFB to come up something like the one below. This is an Assault Rifle, LMG and IAR all rolled into one...A force multiplier...all into a 8 Pound package !!!

    It would be awesome for sustained fire assaults for highly mobile special forces teams; specially in mountains.......This can't be a general issue weapon, but for special teams and special operations....

    Also, this upper receiver can be mounted on any M4 / AR15 lower, which our PARA SF uses in limited numbers .....This system is currently being evaluated by US Army...
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
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  2. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    I would be happy, To see something like this on our GPMG or INSAS LMG ..

     
  3. devhensh

    devhensh Regular Member

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    Deleted ......Double Post ....
     
  4. devhensh

    devhensh Regular Member

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    Deleted...Double post...............
     
  5. Kchontha

    Kchontha Regular Member

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    IMHO what drdo/arde/ofb lacking is dragging its feet in embracing and incorporating the latest tecnology in their products. We can cited many example, arde designed ubgl was incorporated to insas only as late as 2010 but ubgl technology is not rocket science and availabled since a long time ago. In order to avoid such a shoddy affair they should keep their eyes open and alert themselves to what is happening around in terms of technology.
     
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  6. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Their is no issue of technology but timelines when GSQR is made and implemented so does available resource to DRDO/ARDE/OFB..
     
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  7. su35

    su35 Regular Member

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    1) First of all the rifle does not meet IA requirement as IA already changed to higher caliber
    2) even TAR 21 used by IA can be used as LMG and have belt fed magazine, i think INSAS can be modified too
    3)IA generally not seen to use belt fed magazine even i don't understand why?
    4) it can be selected if it pays huge commission to IA generals
     
  8. Kchontha

    Kchontha Regular Member

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    If you have the technology you should demonstrate to the end users. Impressing the end users with the technology you are having is the way how you successfully transact your business. You can't sell your products according to customers requirements because there will be other seller also instead convert your products into their requirments first by impressing.
     
  9. S.Balaji

    S.Balaji Regular Member

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    Unfortunately it is not the marketing skills that are lacking....it is the absence of kickbacks in indigenous products that are lacking...

    One scientists at DRDO put things in perspective reg India being largest importer of arms in the world - he said we developed strategic weapons like Agni, bmd , atv along with associated sub systems like propulsion, propellent, mini nuclear reactor, radar, mirv bcus no country will sell it...their is no middle men to grease the palms of MoD....their is no goal posts to change....their is no need to sabotage

    If Indian scientists can produce indigenously highly complex cutting edge strategic systems..can't our scientists produce a measly sniper, artillery, tanks etc...India as in any country is cursed with bad apples in high places....but things are changing with the current dispensation...... scientists are upbeat.....indigenous products are seeing induction in droves.....astra, akash, Tejas, Excalibur, jvpc, ushus2, etc .....hope to see the same team under Modi to continue in 2019....jai hind
     
  10. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    That`s the problem which which is the main cause of delays, Their is a reason why many systems ended up only in prototypes and technology demonstration as their is continual change of requirements, In India all the hardware are upgraded in prototypes phases and none see service, Where as in the rest of the world, service equipment see upgrades in phases manner after getting inducted ..

    Their is also a major problem within forces that once inducted the firearm hardly see upgrade, Glad INSAS rifle see upgrades into many variations in 1B, 1B1, 1B1 improved, MK1C and now OFB 7.62, But their is hardly anything with LMG ..

     
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  11. devhensh

    devhensh Regular Member

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    First of all, i posted this as a Technology Demonstrator , and mentioned, maybe DRDO/OFB can build something similar...and never mentioned that, India should buy this..But i must point out wrong information in the quoted post ...

    1. As per me and many others much more knowledgeable, the 5.56x45mm will coexist with 7.62x51mm for along time to come..
    2. TAR -21 or Tavor was never belt fed. It's magzine fed and there is a clear diffrence between BELT FED & MAGZINE FED weapons.
    3. Indian Army does use Belt Fed weapons. NEGEV LMG is one of them, which is used by many special forces (PARA and Garuds and maybe more)...Our HMGs & MMGs are also belt fed ....
     
  12. Bornubus

    Bornubus Chodi Bhakt & BJPig Hunter Senior Member

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    ==============================================================
     
  13. Bornubus

    Bornubus Chodi Bhakt & BJPig Hunter Senior Member

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    25510679_201286477110322_983355335_o.jpg


    ==========================
     
  14. tharun

    tharun Patriot Senior Member

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    @Kunal Biswas I have read an article saying that FN-Scar bolt weights more to reduce the recoil.
    Is that true?
     
  15. Johny_Baba

    Johny_Baba अज्ञानी Senior Member

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    SCAR-H bolt carrier,not bolt.

    But yeah,it is true,due to its mass it would effectively dampen recoil to some manageable level.

    Although a big chunk of metal reciprocating forward and backward is not so ideal for controllability.One requires some practice to master it.
     
  16. devhensh

    devhensh Regular Member

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    Correct ! The SCAR-H, like many short stroke recoil actions uses a rather "heavy bolt carrier assembly" .

    It also has a very effective muzzle brake and the combination of these two makes the rifle very controllable.

    In one sentence, SCAR-H is one of the lightest and most controllable, 7.62x51mm rifle....Trust me, i have seen it first hand on ranges....Also, you can see from the clip below.
    @Moderators: Feel free to move this, but i am only responding to a related query
     
  17. devhensh

    devhensh Regular Member

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  18. tharun

    tharun Patriot Senior Member

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    #Copy alert#.........
    Norinco's SCAR copy in 7.62X39 mm
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. devhensh

    devhensh Regular Member

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    DENEL NTW 20 (Our Indian made version is called Vidhwansak)

    Perhaps the best Antimaterial rifle in world...definitely most versatile...An engineering marvel..

     
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  20. Johny_Baba

    Johny_Baba अज्ञानी Senior Member

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    I present you this Article on NTW-20

    NTW-20 ANTI-MATERIEL RIFLE (Cool new Long Distance Rifle!)
    VALERY SHILIN GUNS CLUB. ^ | FR Post 11-5-04 | Editorial Staff

    Posted on 08/11/2004, 04:03:37 by vannrox

    NTW-20 ANTI-MATERIEL RIFLE

    Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1273806/posts

    I should like to extend my acknowledgements to Anthony Neophytou, president of the MECHEM Business Group, division of DENEL in South Africa and a developer of the NTW-20 rifle, and to Terry Gander - Editor of the JANE's Infantry Weapons, UK, for the provided technical information and sharing their professional opinion on the design and application of said weapon.

    This anti-materiel rifle is interesting from the two points of view:
    - its function and purpose;
    - methods of dealing with recoil.

    The rifle is built around two cartridges: the South African MG151 20x83.5 mm and the Russian API or API-T 14.5x114 mm. Optionally, and for the purpose of decreasing cost of training, the rifle can be made in caliber 12.7 mm.

    The NTW20/14.5 rifle is an anti-materiel weapon that can have many applications, including the Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD), i.e. in addition to a purely kinetic effect, the 20-mm warhead is the smallest round that can deliver a useful payload. Its fragmenting HE capability makes absolute pinpoint accuracy less vital, since target effect is not limited to bullet diameter.

    Tony Neophytou believes that it is only after one fired both commonly available 12.7's and 20-mm NTW extensively, without sophisticated target acquisition equipment on ill-defined ranges, that the 20-mm shows its superiority. The ability to spot the fall of shot enables one to compensate instantly with rapid follow-up shots to achieve hits if necessary.

    Very little experience exists with 20-mm rifles by military users. The number of such rifles commonly recognized and known to the world at large is rather scarce: Croatian RT20, Hungarian APH RK20 and, finally, the South African NTW-20/14.5 guns complete this list. No wonder, the usual comments are that acceptable recoil and accuracy cannot be had in a weapon sufficiently light to be man-carried. The NTW-20 has been able to dispel this, most shooters firing the rifle for the first time are pleasantly surprised, first by manageable recoil forces and secondly and most importantly the ease with which targets can be engaged. There is absolutely no doubt as to whether the target has been struck or not!

    In 20-mm format the rifle fires the 20x83.5 MG151 cartridge fired by the Vektor 20-mm GA1 cannon; the round is manufactured by Pretoria Metal Pressings (PMP). Ammunition natures fired by the NTW-20 include HEI, HEI-T, SAPHEI and Practice. Muzzle velocity is 720 m/sec and the operational range is given as up to 1,500 meters. In 14.5-mm form the cartridge fired is the Russian 14.5x114 in API and API-T form; muzzle velocity is 1,800 m/sec and a maximum effective range up to 2,300 meters.
    Changing from one caliber to another takes less than 60 seconds. The barrel, bolt, magazine and sighting equipment can be interchanged between the two calibers as required.

    The NTW-20 has been designed for maximum ease of use and low maintenance. The bolt action with three-shot magazine provided the most efficient system for accurate single shot fire. The high cost, complexity and lack of accuracy of a semi-automatic action is not justified, since the time it takes to re-acquire and accurately aim on target is much longer than it takes to reload.

    The question is also often asked, - what happened to the WW2 20-mm rifles? They were conceived primarily as anti-tank weapons but their armor-penetrating capabilities were soon far outstripped by the armor of newer tanks. These weapons weighed as much as 100 kg and could hardly have been considered as man portable. The most significant difference between these and the NTW-20 is the role it plays and the reduction in weight and cost. The NTW-20 gives a user a cannon capability in a rifle configuration.

    NTW-20/14.5 is aimed primarily for use by quick reaction, peacekeeping, and SPECOPS. Accurate long-range fire is available for high value targets, with low collateral damage. The actual deployment and use of the system varies between different nations and depends on doctrine and philosophy, and most importantly imagination of a shooter.

    The system is supplied with two backpacks, each weighing approximately 15 kg loaded. One accommodates the weapon receiver section, while the other contains all of its ancillaries including the barrel and ammunition. These allow the system to be carried into relatively inaccessible areas so that it can be deployed from the least likely or expected areas.

    [​IMG]

    The second recoil absorber consists of a double acting spring buffer located in the lower rear chassis.

    As the recoil slows, the hydraulic damper begins to do less work, but the spring buffer, as it begins to be compressed, works more efficiently near the end of its stroke. The graphs of these two systems neatly overlap each other to flatten the recoil peak, and extend the time over which the whole force is experienced. This yields a shove rather than the sharp high velocity kick, which is produced by systems not equipped with recoil management system (RMS).

    Recoil is finally moderated also by an efficient double baffle muzzle brake, which has been carefully designed to minimize sound blast and dust signature.

    The major factor with recoil is not the total amount of energy but the rate and the manner with which it is generated.

    By table "Group Sizes for NTW-20" one can judge the accuracy of the rifle shown by firing standard ammunition.

    SPECIFICATIONS
    20-mm version

    Cartridge: 20x83.5 mm MG151.
    Operation: manual bolt action.
    Feed: 3-round box-type, detachable magazine.
    Weight, empty, kg: 26.
    Overall length, mm: 1,795
    Rifling: 1 full turn in 560 mm.
    Length of barrel, mm: 1,000
    Muzzle velocity, m/sec: 720
    Muzzle energy, J: 28,500
    Effective range, m: > 1,500

    14.5-mm version
    Cartridge: 14.5x114 mm Russian.
    Operation: manual bolt action.
    Feed: 3-round box-type, detachable magazine.
    Weight, empty, kg: 29.
    Overall length, mm: 2,015
    Rifling: 1 full turn in 406 mm.
    Length of barrel, mm: 1,220
    Muzzle velocity, m/sec: 1,080
    Muzzle energy, J: 30,675
    Effective range, m: > 2,300

    Developer & Manufacturer:
    MECHEM, a division of DENEL (Pty) LTD.
    329b Mundt Street, Waltloo, Pretoria.
    P.O. Box 912454, Silverton 0127
    Republic of South Africa
    Tel: +27-12 803 7290
    Fax: +27-12 803 7189



    table 1. Group Sizes
    Range, m
    in windage, mm in elevation, mm rounds
    150
    79 70 5
    250
    145 45 5
    550
    220 225 5
    700
    200 250 5
    800
    250 250 5
    1000
    700 600 5

     
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