Army scraps the world's largest assault rifle tender

[Bhadra]

Ah ! another Army and General bashing thread !!

What can be better preoccupation than bad mouth Army and its Generals but do nothing for them - after all they are foreigners to country ethos !!

 

[Bhadra]

Kickbacks & commissions

30 characterrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

It is well understood that you can contribute that much only ................ Huh..

 

[Bhadra]

INSAS is simply a bad rife.It's good for Police vs thief scenario but not for Counter Insurgency.

Even under that scenario the thief will keep running having been hit by two INSAS bullets till he reaches a hospital.

 

[Bhadra]

I can understand that you have difficulties developing home-grown Arjun or Tejas, but AR....it is not rocket science for gods sake.

When you grow something obstacles and problems are bound to be there. What is however, needed is to nurture a banana tree which grows banana so that the banana falls one day ... and uproot that banana tree which does not grow banana ..

 

[pmaitra]

Even under that scenario the thief will keep running having been hit by two INSAS bullets till he reaches a hospital.

The reality is very different.

The wound confirms what Gen. V. K. Singh said about the INSAS, and it also sheds light on the credibility of your comments.

Spoiler: Female BSF kill Pakistani intruder [GRAPHIC]

Remember: A bad workman always blames his tools.

 

[manindra]

It is well understood that you can contribute that much only ................ Huh..

Sir, I don't want to put myself in your mudsling competition but its dark fact that there corruption to core in Armed forces , same level as in Judiciary, Bureaucracy & Politics.
Most of Generals offspring are become defence contracters agent & work as middle men.
There no open secret that if DRDO , OFB or HAL start giving kickbacks then their shoddy products would be never rejected but they can't due to they themself are corrupt & inefficient to the core.
Same Army does not have any problem when Foreign Gun would be produced by OFB with so called TOT (And everybody know OFB production quality).
Here is a sample of OFB made quality of Gun & same OFB would start producing State of the Art Gun

After selection of foreign gun everyone happy, Generals with their kickback & commissions, OFB with their production contract, Foreign defence contractors with their huge royalties.
Only loser would be Soldiers who hold these OFB produce high quality foreign gun & Indian Taxpayers.

 

[Shaitan]

Hilarious, with their already stupid demand for a multi caliber rifle.

DRDO chased this stupid requirement of theirs, now they'll probably retract the requirement as all the contenders failed.

 

[ersakthivel]

I can understand that you have difficulties developing home-grown Arjun or Tejas, but AR....it is not rocket science for gods sake.

You are yet to understand the depth of corruption in higher echelons of indian govt, which is fully institutionalized.
thats why whenever west is not ready to give tech like, Nuclear powered ballistic missile launcher Arihant, Nuclear bomb, prithvi, agniINSAT, chndriyan , Mangalyan, super computers, sagarika or nirbhay DRDO -indian R&D products gets inducted without any fuss.

because no western manufacturer is ready to sell them because of sanctions.

Whenever the item to be purchased is open market stuff, DRDO products will be never accepted or only token induction, reason DRDO-PSU can not give bribe.

 

[pmaitra]

It really does not matter if the finishing does not look refined. What matters is accuracy and reliability. Every single rifle is checked before being released.

Moreover, OFB is a government organization. It is not in the business of marketing its products, like Colt and Bushmaster. It doesn't need to produce expensive machined parts if stamped metal parts can do the job just as well. This may not be interpreted as every single part being stamped metal. Those companies are that commercially oriented, will focus on making guns look tacticool and treat their weapons as fashion parade models.

My personal experience with a cool looking SMG: I used a KRISS Vector. It was the so called example of modern German engineering (edit: actually Switzerland based). It looks very cool, and is well finished. However, when actually used, it jammed on me several times. Verdict: It looks cool but sucks in operation.

There is a tendency amongst many to blame the hardware without actually ascertaining the real cause of the glitches. I will list some common myths:

Myth: INSAS jams in cold weather due to manufacturing defect.
Fact: INSAS jams when high viscosity lubricants are used in cold weather.

Myth: Nepalese Army INSAS AR jammed due to overheating caused by black furniture.
Fact: Nepalese Army INSAS AR jammed due to overheating caused by continuous full auto operation. INSAS ARs given to the Royal Nepalese Army were full auto rifles.

Myth: Furniture is bad due to poor manufacturing by OFB.
Fact: Furniture is supplied by third party private vendors.

Yes, there were glitches, and they have been rectified, years ago. Quality of fit and finish has been improved. Even the transparent magazine now is strong enough that one could step on it and it wouldn't break. There are plenty of posts in the INSAS threads.

 

[jouni]

Our RK will have service life of 80 years without any problems....and it is taught in Finnish Army to use aimed single shots, use automatic fire only when enemy is 20 meters from you....

In the 1950's the Finnish military recognised the need for the new military assault rifle. Instead of "invention of the wheel", finns decided to adopt and modify some of existing designs, and the proven "gun of the big neighbour", the famous Soviet AK-47 was almost a natural choice, since the Finnland had fairy good relations with the USSR since WW2. Finnland bought the license for original AK-47 design (with milled receiver), and first prototypes of the future Finnish assault rifle, named Rk.60, were submitted for military testings in 1960. The Rk.60, being internally almost a copy of the AK-47, showed some external differences. It had tubular metallic buttstock, plastic handguard that did not covered the gas tube, plastic pistol grip. The Rk.60 lacked the triggerguard and has three prong flash hider at the muzzle. The original sights were replaced with hooded post front sight atop of the gas chamber, the tangent rear sight was replaced by an aperture sight, mounted at the rear of the receiver cover. Both front and night sights had folding "night sights", with the white dots.

In general, all Sako / Valmet Rk.62 family weapons are first class quality firearms that designed to withstand extreme environmental conditions of the Nordic Europe. It is also should be noted that early Israeli made Galil assaul rifles were made on macinery and by documentation, bought from Valmet.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/fi/valmet-sako-rk62--76--95-e.html

 

[Bhadra]

Sir, I don't want to put myself in your mudsling competition but its dark fact that there corruption to core in Armed forces , same level as in Judiciary, Bureaucracy & Politics.
Most of Generals offspring are become defence contracters agent & work as middle men.
There no open secret that if DRDO , OFB or HAL start giving kickbacks then their shoddy products would be never rejected but they can't due to they themself are corrupt & inefficient to the core.
Same Army does not have any problem when Foreign Gun would be produced by OFB with so called TOT (And everybody know OFB production quality).
Here is a sample of OFB made quality of Gun & same OFB would start producing State of the Art Gun

After selection of foreign gun everyone happy, Generals with their kickback & commissions, OFB with their production contract, Foreign defence contractors with their huge royalties.
Only loser would be Soldiers who hold these OFB produce high quality foreign gun & Indian Taxpayers.

Just look at the standard of engraving .... looks like it has been etched out by a country side blacksmith.. Look at top the cover at the joints - looks as if it has been forced cut by faulty teethed and rusted saw.. by a trainee.. or casual labour. Look at that awful trigger guard which bends at slightest pretext... I hope you know the parts I am referring to.. This is the stuff you give soldiers to defend your backsides.

Come on we are in 21st century ...

 

[manindra]

Just look at the standard of engraving .... looks like it has been etched out by a country side blacksmith.. Look at top the cover at the joints - looks as if it has been forced cut by faulty teethed and rusted saw.. by a trainee.. or casual labour. Look at that awful trigger guard which bends at slightest pretext... I hope you know the parts I am referring to.. This is the stuff you give soldiers to defend your backsides.

Come on we are in 21st century ...

And the same OFB produced Tanks, Artillery, Rifle under license would become Kosher.

 

[DingDong]

Even under that scenario the thief will keep running having been hit by two INSAS bullets till he reaches a hospital.

I have seen Criminals escaping after been hit couple of times by the old Ishapore rifle bullets.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/fi/valmet-sako-rk62--76--95-e.html

Colour of the furniture tells me that this weapon is not fit for Harsh Indian Climate.

This not the first time when hi-tech western infantry equipment could not pass the "Indian" test. INSAS may look crude but it has performed satisfactorily in Indian hands.

Many arm-chair generals in the IA have no concern about the needs of our soldiers who actually fight on ground.

 

[jouni]

I think AK47 based weapons work well everywhere, of course our RK is with tighter tolerances, but still...it is also tested at sauna 120 degree celcius with 100% humidity.

 

[Bhadra]

I have seen Criminals escaping after been hit couple of times by the old Ishapore rifle bullets.

Sir, may be. The wound ballistics particularly the exit wound of 7.62 X 52 is bad or rather overkill for humans.

Colour of the furniture tells me that this weapon is not fit for Harsh Indian Climate.

This not the first time when hi-tech western infantry equipment could not pass the "Indian" test. INSAS may look crude but it has performed satisfactorily in Indian hands.

Many arm-chair generals in the IA have no concern about the needs of our soldiers who actually fight on ground.

I agree.However what the Indian Army has been using since ages like .303 or 7.62 were western origins and designs.So we can not generalise. Those were also made by the same factories like Ishapore. However, the atmosphere in those factories has gone changes and corruption at big scales has entered. Today, most of the parts are made by outsourcing and contractors wherein corruption prevails.

What people fail to comprehended is that 5.56 INSAS was contemplated and designed for, conventional wars, Since last so many years, that is far away and Indian Army soldiers but they have been fighting a war that is terrorism and insurgency. It requires a different weapon philosophy as requirement are a little different. Not to burden one self with cost and logistics, requirement of one weapon firing two caliber was felt.

It is not to incapacitate but Kill so that the target does not retaliate effectively even after being hit and the weapon produces a very high volume of fire. It is not a trench warfare. It is mostly encounters where the volume of fire matters.

That precisely is the reason why 9mm ammunition became famous for small ranges and high volume of fire.- because of its wound ballistics / its shape and size.However that caliber ,its ballistics does not render it suitable for longer ranges of say 1800m from where the infantry engagements start.

 

[jouni]

Best AK commercial ever......

 

[Bhadra]

What DRDO, MES, OFB, BRO and DPSUs are doing is business. Business in the name of Defence - with assured funds, captive user and no accountability to users.

Then how can one expect any thing good from them.

Yes, the business works for profit. But competition in business assures user driven quality as also fair prices.

Indian Army as user can not expect these things. Decisions are made by manufacturer - that is MoD.

User is just left in the lurch.

In this scenario, neither the manufacturer improve not the user can be satisfied.

 

[pmaitra]

Those were also made by the same factories like Ishapore. However, the atmosphere in those factories has gone changes and corruption at big scales has entered. Today, most of the parts are made by outsourcing and contractors wherein corruption prevails.

The atmosphere in those factories is far better than the atmosphere in the DGMF's office. I see why the OFB factories would be accused of corruption. After all, OFB don't give kickbacks, unlike the foreign arms vendors. No problem with OFB produced weapons if they are foreign weapons produced under licence.

What DRDO, MES, OFB, BRO and DPSUs are doing is business. Business in the name of Defence - with assured funds, captive user and no accountability to users.

Then how can one expect any thing good from them.

Yes, the business works for profit. But competition in business assures user driven quality as also fair prices.

Indian Army as user can not expect these things. Decisions are made by manufacturer - that is MoD.

User is just left in the lurch.

In this scenario, neither the manufacturer improve not the user can be satisfied.

Every single thing you have said here is utter nonsense.

 

[Bhadra]

When DG CRPF dumps their weapon - there is no chest thumping ... No campaigns, no Rudalies but the moment army finds faults with their machines there is hue and cry, tamsha, Unioinism, pleas, blackmail and allrgations of "foreign mal", commission and corruption.... name calling to Generals in every sentence ... Ah

These guys think army is their slave .... !! Loosers...

 

[pmaitra]

What DRDO, MES, OFB, BRO and DPSUs are doing is business. Business in the name of Defence - with assured funds, captive user and no accountability to users.

Wrong. There is accountability, that is why INSAS has been modified after inputs from people who actually use the INSAS, not people like you.

Then how can one expect any thing good from them.

If certain people have made up their minds they will reject indigenous weapons, no one in the world can satisfy them. They are best ignored.

Yes, the business works for profit. But competition in business assures user driven quality as also fair prices.

Wrong. OFB does not work for profit. Or else, they'd have thrown Army requirements out the window and focussed on tacticoolness.

Indian Army as user can not expect these things. Decisions are made by manufacturer - that is MoD.

Wrong. Decisions are made by the Army, and those requirements are passed to the OFB, and OFB follows those requirements.

User is just left in the lurch.

Wrong. INSAS was built as per Army requirements, and feedback was taken from the Army to improve it.

In this scenario, neither the manufacturer improve not the user can be satisfied.

The manufacturer has been improving and the users who use it are also satisfied, just not a few people like you, and those that you are defending.