Army may scrap FMBT and focus on Arjun

p2prada

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The probability of a 120mm gun being developed with American assistance is highly likely and will be a welcome development.

It will most likely be based on the new XM360 or XM360E1 that's available for the M1A2's upgrade program.

FMBT will obviously have a smoothbore gun.
 
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Ky Loung

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The probability of a 120mm gun being developed with American assistance is highly likely and will be a welcome development.

It will most likely be based on the new XM360 or XM360E1 that's available for the M1A2's upgrade program.

FMBT will obviously have a smoothbore gun.
XM360 is still in development. How many years is it now? 7 years and 700 millions or so but don't quote me on it.

XM360 is a very light cannon. It is so light it can be mounted on a Humvee. It primary use by IFV, like the Stryker (M1128 Mobile Gun System). M1128 currently use L7 105mm cannon.

XM360E1 is suppose to be use in the A3 but with so many delays I'm not sure it will make it on time. That's why L/55 is a prime candidate for the A3.

2010 report on XM360.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/WednesdayReunionDavidSmith.pdf
 
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pmaitra

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"Did US offered . . ."

This type grammatical horror is expected of IDRW. I wonder who runs this website.
 

p2prada

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XM360 is still in development. How many years is it now? 7 years and 700 millions or so but don't quote me on it.

XM360 is a very light cannon. It is so light it can be mounted on a Humvee. It primary use will IFV like the Stryker (M1128 Mobile Gun System). M1128 currently use L7 105mm cannon.

XM360E1 is suppose to be use in the A3 but with so many delays I'm not sure it will make it on time. That's why L/55 is a prime candidate for the A3.

2010 report on XM360.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/WednesdayReunionDavidSmith.pdf
I don't disagree about the problems XM360 faces today. But FMBT is not expected to be ready until 2025 at the earliest. The X indicates it is in development, and that is good news because there is scope for actual development of the gun.

And I don't know what type of joint development the Americans can offer on the German L55. It's not an American gun, even if they have the license to manufacture it.
 

Ky Loung

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I don't disagree about the problems XM360 faces today. But FMBT is not expected to be ready until 2025 at the earliest. The X indicates it is in development, and that is good news because there is scope for actual development of the gun.

And I don't know what type of joint development the Americans can offer on the German L55. It's not an American gun, even if they have the license to manufacture it.
Unless we ask the Germans, the L/55 is own by them. The US have a lot of influence with our allies.

The XM360E1 will be the first American made cannon mounted on an American made MBT since M48 Patton. That's over 60 years ago. Pretty amazing if it happen. I won't hold my breath tho.
 

p2prada

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Unless we ask the Germans, the L/55 is own by them. The US have a lot of influence with our allies.

The XM360E1 will be the first American made cannon mounted on an American made MBT since M48 Patton. That's over 60 years ago. Pretty amazing if it happen. I won't hold my breath tho.
Even a joint development program here is by a long shot, but we are going to need international partners for the FMBT. So it is not impossible.
 

Kunal Biswas

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To add more, US make L44 not L55 for their tanks, L44 is shorter than Arjun`s 120mm Rifled Gun, The only thing its good at is higher Endurance, DRDO perviously mentioned of making much thicker 120mm gun for Arjun MK2, DRDO already design and make 125mm smooth-bores and converting 120mm Rifled to smooth-bore is not difficult for ARDE, Going for L44 is degrading the preform ace of Arjun or FMBT under DRDO ..

Military "fanboys" indulging in another speculative story.
 

Lions Of Punjab

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Mahindra Defence System (MDS), part of the $17-bn Mahindra & Mahindra, is all set for the production of unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) system platforms. MDS Vice President (Strategic Business Development) Samir Advani said the company has attained full technology capability in developing the UAV platforms for upgrading the defence capability of the country. "We have developed UAV systems which are full-fledged platforms and can be used in the air, on the ground, and in the deep sea.

Once we get solid queries from any customers, MDS will go for production," he said. UAVs are sophisticated systems with lightweight frames, advanced propulsion systems, secure data links, and high technology control systems and payloads.

"For the land system, which is backed by core competencies of M&M, we make different types of armoured vehicles. We have already developed the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT). Our Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) program is running behind schedule," he said.

In naval systems, the company has developed underwater sonar to protect ships from attacks. In radars, the company has developed the latest electronic support systems and instruments.

Land, naval, radar systems

The company came into the limelight when it made an effort to buy a majority stake in Pipavav Offshore and Defence Engineering (PODE) in a Rs 4,000-crore multi-layered deal.

"Opportunities in defence are actually the need of the hour for the nation to have an independent manufacturing capability. Therefore, since 2000 onwards, M&M started investing in various defence and other allied manufacturing activities. We can claim to be the only company having presence in land, naval, and radar systems," said Advani.

He downplayed the defence offset clause as part of the defence procurement policy, and said industry should view this as a spin-off opportunity. "Companies should focus on building defence manufacturing capabilities and skill development in-house. If the technology is not mature enough, they should go for partnerships. Here the focus should be more on product development than on services," he said.

Advani said the company has three manufacturing facilities in India, and has enough in its order book to occupy itself for the coming two years. When asked about MDS' revenue target, he said, "Once the government walks the talk on its defence procurement and production plans, I think we will be busy for the next 20 to 25 years. We are looking at strengthening our position in India and after that will think of the export market."

MDS recently started Mahindra Emirates Vehicle Armouring Fz, based in Ras al-Khaimah, UAE. MDS is also supported on the technology front by sister companies Mahindra Aerospace, Mahindra Telephonic Integrated Systems and Tech Mahindra.


Mahindra Defence ready with UAV platforms

re: Mahindra FMBT and FICV

Very impressive.

Lisence copy paste, May be a Serbian MBT as FMBT or Polish light tanks ..

Confusing....

Lisence copy paste, May be a Serbian MBT as FMBT or Polish light tanks ..
Does not matter. Copy-paste is good. At least one industrial company is serious about requirements of Indian Army.
I hope Army/MOD serious consider these products.

In that case we can say good bye to war preparedness and ultimately the victory and our Nation ..

Something which is not design for Indian need, cannot work well, Just like T-90 / 72 fiasco ..

Get rid of the Idea, That Private co is the magic wand, On the side-note TATA too also published its version of FMBT which is actually a T-72 ..

Does not matter. Copy-paste is good. At least one industrial company is serious about requirements of Indian Army.I hope Army/MOD serious consider these products.
Get rid of the Idea, That Private co is the magic wand, On the side-note TATA too also published its version of FMBT which is actually a T-72 ..
That image is just a placeholder image to the general public. Their concept isn't done yet.



Guessing this is what you're talking about, from the Kestrel launch pdf they released.

Both the FICV and FMBT are just placeholder images, I guess they believe the general public dont know any better.

But it is interesting that TATA motors does want to participate in a program to be a lead integrator of a MBT by 2020.

Very ambitious of these private players. Whatever the case may be, India needs another amour manufacturing plant other than that OFB one. TATA for example has the land already set in place if they get the FICV project. This will be a large, modern, spanking new armor manufacturing plant for the Indian market and beyond with in India. A whole new work force, and specialist being matured under TATA.

In that case we can say good bye to war preparedness and ultimately the victory and our Nation ..

Something which is not design for Indian need, cannot work well, Just like T-90 / 72 fiasco ..

Get rid of the Idea, That Private co is the magic wand, On the side-note TATA too also published its version of FMBT which is actually a T-72 ..
Mahindra is a very capable industrial company. OFB is nothing in comparison.

I am sure Army will buy only if the product meets its requirements.

The source of technology SHOULD NOT BE AN ISSUE.

Mahindra group annual turnover exceeds 1 lakh crore compared to OFBs's 11000 crore.

Mahindra is a very capable industrial company. OFB is nothing in comparison.

I am sure Army will buy only if the product meets its requirements.

The source of technology SHOULD NOT BE AN ISSUE.

Mahindra group annual turnover exceeds 1 lakh crore compared to OFBs's 11000 crore.
Yeah yeah,do you even realize that Mahindra or whatever,will just be doing the assembling in India,nothing more than that.All the critical parts will come ready made,straight from the foreign OEM.So if you choose the Mahindra FMBT,you will again be getting an imported product,just with Indian tag!!It won't be any different to the present T 90S OFB has been manufacturing,the only difference would be that Mahindra ould be the one instead of OFB. Then you can forget about getting attaining self reliance and even worse,the expertise that DRDO attained through decades of painstaking r&d effort will get wasted,so will be all the millions of dollars of tax payers' money that went into it.There is just no way Indian Army can even think of accepting the Mahindra FMBT,whatever the ----- it is.............not now!!The best Mahindra might get,is to be the manufacturer of the DRDO developed FMBT instead of the AVADI factory.

@Blood+, it is for MOD to specify the % of local content. If OFB can make a tank with x% of local content; I am sure Mahindra can do that too.

The Avadi factory will continue to make Arjun tanks and SPG (on Arjun chassis). Avadi is also making T-90 which has significant orders from the Army.

DRDO needs to collaborate with Indian automobile OEMs who have far better infrastructure compared to OFB.

OFB is backward and its facilities does not meet needs of modern weapon systems. GOI has given it money which it is not able to utilise fully. The OFB has low efficiency as an organization.

But read my post again, I was not talking about serial production but R&D ..

Serial production, Yes it could be, I wish someday i can evaluate the 1B1s manufacture under TATA, OFB & Mahindra`s ..

Mahindra is a very capable industrial company. OFB is nothing in comparison.
Stryket FICV is better for our army.

But read my post again, I was not talking about serial production but R&D ..

Serial production, Yes it could be, I wish someday i can evaluate the 1B1s manufacture under TATA, OFB & Mahindra`s ..
The prototyping is also better done with private sector. A new vehicle can be designed in three years in the private sector. The public sector is lagging in technology as well as human factor.

Their is no amount money available for Pvt Sector to start R&D as par with Government organization beside security concerns from Gov ..

Besides that, Any logic to back your claim about vehicle designing by Pvt sector in three years as per GSQR ? , Arjun MK2 was design and prototyping in less than 2 years ..

Your logic here is up side down ..

A new vehicle can be designed in three years in the private sector. The public sector is lagging in technology as well as human factor.
Their is no amount money available for Pvt Sector to start R&D as par with Government organization beside security concerns from Gov ..

Besides that, Any logic to back your claim about vehicle designing by Pvt sector in three years as per GSQR ? , Arjun MK2 was design and prototyping in less than 2 years ..

Your logic here is up side down ..
DRDO/OFB have been working on Arjun for a very long time. Arjun Mark-2 is NOT a new product, only an improved product.
You should visit design department of either Tata or Mahindra. You will see what I am talking about.

The private sector in India is far ahead of public sector in manufacturing.

The security concerns are NOT mitigated by manufacturing in public sector. There is a lot of theft from public sector factories - of both ideas and materials. Security is implemented by sound implementation of security policies.

There are many aspects of involving private sector in defence production. There may be loose ends still but companies like L&T and Tata are involved significantly with product development cycle.

The GOI is giving a lot of funds to OFB. The current thinking is to ramp up ammunition production in OFB. However equipment manufacture will be diversified.

Monopoly always becomes a pain. We should never allow a monopoly.

No one born with PHD, It takes years to get that after he born, Without R&D Knowledge, Do not argue about it, Please ..

MK2 is not a new machine based on older platform, Same with Leopard A4 to A5 or A6 or T-90 from T-72 in other countries, Better learn about such than come down and talk, Please ..

For your knowledge, TATA fighting vehicle is design by DRDO and put in prototyping under TATA, I am asking about source and you are no where providing me that, And you cannot provide me so, Which i know ..

DRDO/OFB have been working on Arjun for a very long time. Arjun Mark-2 is NOT a new product, only an improved product..
No one born with PHD, It takes years to get that after he born, Without R&D Knowledge, Do not argue about it, Please ..

MK2 is not a new machine based on older platform, Same with Leopard A4 to A5 or A6 or T-90 from T-72 in other countries, Better learn about such than come down and talk, Please ..

For your knowledge, TATA fighting vehicle is design by DRDO and put in prototyping under TATA, I am asking about source and you are no where providing me that, And you cannot provide me so, Which i know ..
You want to make it a public sector vs private sector battle. This is a futile battle.

It is perfectly alright if a DRDO concept/design is prototyped in private sector. In fact this should be encouraged.

I have said multiple times on this board that GOI owns the designs even if developed by private sector and paid by GOI. So any design/development project given to private agency MUST be paid by GOI.

The defence sector is completely different from civilian economy. This fact MUST be recognized.

The biggest problem is ramping up. If a serious war is started today, OFB and public sector will be completed swamped as it was during Kargil. Does public sector of India has the capacity to support a war?? When an actual war happens, everybody runs to foreign countries for import.

The problem with government types is that they do not understand industrial economy. People make too many assumptions while hard work to achieve real targets is missing.

The Avadi factory can realistically make 100 tanks per year. The Medak factory hardly churns out more than 100 vehicles per year. Do you think any of these are stars of efficiency??

Suppose there is a sudden need for 2000 tanks to be made in 2-3 years, who will make them??

There is a huge drawdown of labour pool in public sector in the last 20 years. Are you even aware of that?
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Do you understand that you are the one keep repeating same words despite replies by others, No one doing measuring competition here unless you are trying to make one ..

If you are asking about serial production under private, It was never been a disagree,

Many thing you said here in bold are quite serious and agreed by most other understanding people, Rest remaining in your post are quite incorrect ..


You want to make it a public sector vs private sector battle. This is a futile battle.

It is perfectly alright if a DRDO concept/design is prototyped in private sector. In fact this should be encouraged. ( THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE )

I have said multiple times on this board that GOI owns the designs even if developed by private sector and paid by GOI. So any design/development project given to private agency MUST be paid by GOI.( THERE IS NO SUCH THINGS EXSIST & DESIGN TOT ARE STATE PROPERTY WHICH COULD NOT BE DISTRIBUTED RATHER PROVIDED IN KITS )

The defence sector is completely different from civilian economy. This fact MUST be recognized.

The biggest problem is ramping up. If a serious war is started today, OFB and public sector will be completed swamped as it was during Kargil. Does public sector of India has the capacity to support a war?? When an actual war happens, everybody runs to foreign countries for import.( THEIR WERE NO ORDER EVER GIVEN TO OFB OR PRIVATE.CO FOR SHELL, AFTER WAR THESE ORDERS WERE GIVEN, BEFORE WAR 155MM SHELLS WERE IMPORTED PROBABLY UNDER KICKBACKS )

The problem with government types is that they do not understand industrial economy. People make too many assumptions while hard work to achieve real targets is missing.
The Avadi factory can realistically make 100 tanks per year. The Medak factory hardly churns out more than 100 vehicles per year. Do you think any of these are stars of efficiency??

There is a huge drawdown of labour pool in public sector in the last 20 years. Are you even aware of that?
 

sgarg

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Can you explain why it is incorrect (the portions not in bold).
It was an American who first told me that the perception of weak India is PRIMARILY due to its WEAK INDUSTRIAL CAPACITY.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Provided in Capital letters in grey, In above quotes ..

Can you explain why it is incorrect (the portions not in bold).
It was an American who first told me that the perception of weak India is PRIMARILY due to its WEAK INDUSTRIAL CAPACITY.
 

sgarg

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You have taken the example of a single transaction. This has been happening in a large number of cases. How will domestic capacity exist when orders do not? Why orders are not given? The detractors always say domestic capacity does not exist. So it is critical to disrupt this cycle which breeds only dalal.

I was in USA when kargil happened and it was hot discussion then. Usa was not much involved in Indian defence scene at that time. The american opinion was that of amusement at shortage of ammo even for a small war.
 

sgarg

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Indians simply do not understand that local capacity building in defence manufacturing is critical. Ofb is struggling to produce 5000 pinaka rockets a year which is the target given to it. The prev. Gov starved ofb of capital money. Current gov. Has given the funds to buy plant and machinery.
 

sgarg

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But it is impossible to build the entire capacity in public sector as the focus of the economy has shifted to private sector. Private sector has received most of the capital and largely has the capacity to produce defence goods.
 

Kunal Biswas

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I would not call ' Indians ' but few bad fishes in the pool polluting others ..

Indians simply do not understand that local capacity building in defence manufacturing is critical. Ofb is struggling to produce 5000 pinaka rockets a year which is the target given to it. The prev. Gov starved ofb of capital money. Current gov. Has given the funds to buy plant and machinery.
 

sgarg

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Indian economy is close to "ideal capitalist economy" due to low government spending (with low tax collection). Then how the capacity building is possible in gov. Sector?
 

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The thread title is Army may scrap FMBT and focus on Arjun started on Nov 27, 2012.

**


Not for reviving this thread, since it is Feb 22, 2024, just thought of dropping a line. (Since now the requirement if for FRCV)
 

Hari Sud

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A new department with a different leadership is needed to draft Quality requirements for the military services. The current one is out of sink with real requirements.

The current QR management is out of date.
 

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