Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Damian]

and the Japanese type-90 and leopard-2A?

I'am not sure about Type 90, so I leave it right now. But Leopard 2 have turret sides protected that way.

Crew compartment is completely protected by ~300mm composite armor array, which at 30 degrees should give ~600mm of composite armor. Turret bustle is protected by ~50mm thick RHA which should give ~100mm at 30 degrees.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I'am not sure about Type 90, so I leave it right now. But Leopard 2 have turret sides protected that way.

Crew compartment is completely protected by ~300mm composite armor array, which at 30 degrees should give ~600mm of composite armor. Turret bustle is protected by ~50mm thick RHA which should give ~100mm at 30 degrees.

The side armor issue comes up with every argument, i am not sure over that.

Going over that i think the Arjun has better sepcs than T-90;

 

[Damian]

The side armor issue comes up with every argument, i am not sure over that.

Because it is very important aspect of vehicle protection.

Going over that i think the Arjun has better sepcs than T-90;

? In T-90 side turret armor within vehicle frontal 60 degrees arc is not even visible at all, fully covered by frontal armor.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Ah, this was an issue that was found in 2004, 80 French Catherines were rendered unserviceable due to heat. This was fixed quite quickly and was termed a teething problem. The Russians replaced all 80 Catherines free of cost since the tanks were under the 3 year warranty.

The same thing happened to Arjun with the French Sagem Laser rangefinder. Even this conked during tests in 2005 and was later tropicalized. It is just French stuff giving up on us, not Russian or Indian. This is also a teething issue.

In the interview I posted, the army commanders talk about both tanks having teething issues which were subsequently fixed. There would have been more, but nothing to get jumpy over. It is an acceptable failure of a system.

The media kept repeating the same shit over and over and over again right up until Ajai Shukla released an article in 2012 claiming all T-90 problems were fixed a long time ago. I remember Archer posting the same stupid article from a different source in 2010 or 2011 and claiming the same thing kept repeating forever when it was actually fixed very early on.

As i remember you refused to accept this once in an argument with me and Kunal. Moreover Arjuns system failure was not such a big issue becoz it was an tank under development and T-90 was off the shelf tank which we dont expect from and yet that was over looked.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Because it is very important aspect of vehicle protection

? In T-90 side turret armor within vehicle frontal 60 degrees arc is not even visible at all, fully covered by frontal armor.

Right, So your going to hang on to that one point when we dont know what the idea behind that is? Lets move and look at other issues, typically even the first Abrams had no side armor.

 

[Damian]

Right, So your going to hang on to that one point when we dont know what the idea behind that is? Lets move and look at other issues, typically even the first Abrams had no side armor.

What? These are some bollocks, of course it have. Do I really need to provide photos, again?

M1 series from the start had ~360-400mm thick side turret armor, over it's full lenght, this means protection for both crew compartment and turret bustle.

Seriously, just purchase R.P. Hunnicutt book Abrams A History Of The American Main Battle Tank volume 2, there are photos from development stages and initial production variants, side turret protection have same thickness from M1 to M1A2SEP.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

What? These are some bollocks, of course it have. Do I really need to provide photos, again?

M1 series from the start had ~360-400mm thick side turret armor, over it's full lenght, this means protection for both crew compartment and turret bustle.

Seriously, just purchase R.P. Hunnicutt book Abrams A History Of The American Main Battle Tank volume 2, there are photos from development stages and initial production variants, side turret protection have same thickness from M1 to M1A2SEP.

Not before the TUSK kit, so till then side armor was not reinforced to todays standards.

We have already gone through side armor issue many times on M1 and Arjun so lets move on to other areas. Till i talk to one of the scientists i will keep my opnion and you to yours.

 

[pmaitra]

This is at angle of 30 degrees.

Ok, so the effective thickness will be d / sin 30 or d / cos 30, if d is the armour thickness?

 

[p2prada]

As i remember you refused to accept this once in an argument with me and Kunal. Moreover Arjuns system failure was not such a big issue becoz it was an tank under development and T-90 was off the shelf tank which we dont expect from and yet that was over looked.

The problem is you still don't understand, it was a teething issue. Meaning, if that one problem was fixed, it will bring the tank back to where it is supposed to be. The issue here was tropicalization. This isn't a problem that affects only India, it is a universal problem.

An off the shelf system will have more such teething issues. Considering the biggest issue was only tropicalization, it isn't even a failure to be concerned about.

For eg: The problem with the boilers on Gorky was an unacceptable failure. If the problem was just fixed by using a different blend of fuel, it would have been a teething problem. So, you see the difference.

The T-90s did not see any change in hardware because of the failure, it was only more hardened to the environment changes, that's all. It is entirely different if Catherine was replaced with a different system. That counts as a failure. Hardening could be as complex as changing electronic circuitry or as simple as adding another fan to the system. In the defence industry, both changes are not particularly expensive.

Compared to this small issue, Arjun faced issues that counted as major unacceptable failures along with other deficiencies. They were eventually fixed, but if you think IA would have gone for a half baked Arjun in 2000 simply because T-90 had such teething issues, then you are completely and hopelessly wrong.

Arjun's failures were a big issue, they were not anything small. It's like saying F-35's issues are small because it is still in development, nobody is buying it. Heck, Arjun underwent a major hardware improvement program in 2005, with the help of the Israelis. It wasn't even a tank at the time the T-90 had finished its entire development cycle was only having post induction teething issues. Arjun was just a big box, very similar to what Ajai Shukla quoted around the same time when describing Arjun.

 

[Damian]

Not before the TUSK kit, so till then side armor was not reinforced to todays standards.

Oh boy... you don't have slightest idea what you are talking about do you?

The TUSK kit added ERA to the hull sides, and TUSK-2 additional ERA to turret sides, but the basic thickness of turrets sides is and always was ~360-400mm, and is made from composite armor array.

The composite armor itself was replaced by newer versions several times. Seriously do you read anything I wrote about M1's history? Because it seems that history and technical details of such famous tank are preaty much unknown.

Ok, so the effective thickness will be d x sin 30 or d x cos 30, if d is the armour thickness?

I use relative armor thickness calculator.

http://www.panzerworld.net/armourcalculator

 

[pmaitra]

@Damian, I corrected my post.

You shouldn't need a calculator for this.

 

[Damian]

With calculator it is much faster + I am more certain that I didn't done any mistakes. I never was strong in maths.

 

[p2prada]

It is sine, not cos.

d/sin x = hypotenuse.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Firstly we are not discussing T-90MS in this thread just T-90S with MK-1 not MK-2..

Protection
Here the T-90S and Arjun both have unisolated stored ammunition (at least in the known cases for the Arjun),

Correct also little add-up that the way Arjun Bins are located is safer than T-90S ammo layed 360 degree all around in turret floor..

When comparing these two tanks only, Arjun has safer design than T-90S..

Mobility

The Arjun has the lowest ground-pressure of these three tanks according to Indian claims, but it is important that future models - with probably increased weight - will loose this advantage over the T-90S and T-90MS. The top speed of the Arjun might be greater, but top-speed is always variable and not much relevant for combat.
The T-90S is lighter and thus is more useful for Indian terrain, where infrastructure is limited. The T-90 is smaller (easier to navigate) and (according to this thread) had equal mobility in desert trials.

MK-1 have lowest ground pressure so does MK-2, the tracks are new and wider so does the wheels are bigger..

Firepower

The Arjun's fire control system is relatively modern and has - according to Indian sources - be proven to be good, even better than that of the T-90S in Indian trials (but there are again far too many unknown variables to really use this as agrument for the Arjun). Still the T-90MS with completely new fire control system is in my opinion the better choice. The Arjun has a rifled gun and currently only weak ammunition. The T-90S and T-90MS with their smoothbore guns and wider range of ammunition are favoured here.

Its official record and there is no doubts its authenticity, Its true but that Arjun use ammo of penetration level of just 470mm from 2000m but T-90S dont have much options either which have 500mm from 2000ms, DRDO new ammo for MK-2 will have penetration level of 600-650mm from 2000m which is better than most which are available for import..

Though presently Arjun AP Shells are not upto T-90S AP shells..

Take a drawing and check yourself.

This is better picture :

Which is wrong thinking. Soviet Tanks were tested in deserts as well before induction

The failure of fire control systems and its computerised sensors and sophisticated panels were noticed during T-90 trials in Rajasthan deserts, where systems conked off while operating in temperatures over 45 degree Celsius, sources said.

T-90s to get new air-conditioners - Economic Times
.

T-90S not only had Electronics fried up but engine too, I dont have that link now..

Though these were rectified latter on..

 

[Damian]

but engine too

There seems to be problem with engines indeed. In Russia there were also incidents with engine fires.

But Ukrainians says that 6TD diesel engines of their tanks can work in +55 Celsius degrees. And Ukraine proposed such upgrade for Indian T-90S.

 

[pmaitra]

It is sine, not cos.

d/sin x = hypotenuse.

Thanks for answering.

So, @Damian, since sin 30 is half, which is the denominator, we're looking at an effective thickness of twice the thickness of armour.

 

[Damian]

It is preaty much like with all ideas with inclining armor. To increase "virtually" it's thickness from projectile point of view.

In case of Arjun estimating thickness is still rather easy, try to do that with a tank that have a cast turret armor with variable thickness... this is pain in the ass!

 

[methos]

Firstly we are not discussing T-90MS in this thread just T-90S with MK-1 not MK-2..

No, you said we should discuss T-90S with MK-1, but the thread started when the T-90MS was ordered by Indian army.

Correct also little add-up that the way Arjun Bins are located is safer than T-90S ammo layed 360 degree all around in turret floor..

When comparing these two tanks only, Arjun has safer design than T-90S..

This depends on the exact scenario. From the frontal aspect the T-90S is safer assuming both tanks got the same level of armour protection. From the sides the Arjun's hull ammo storage is in my opinion somewhat better, but the large turret amunition magazine (and afaik this is not isolated in Mk-1, correct?) is much easier to hit and much more likely to hit. But such statements are always based on an exact scenario.

MK-1 have lowest ground pressure so does MK-2, the tracks are new and wider so does the wheels are bigger..

The images from the prototypes I have seen show exactly the same roadwheels and tracks. Even though, if the reported weight of 67 metric tons is correct, it is very unlikely that ground pressure does not increase.

Its official record and there is no doubts its authenticity, Its true but that Arjun use ammo of penetration level of just 470mm from 2000m but T-90S dont have much options either which have 500mm from 2000ms

The T-90S does have a lot of more option, India is just not willing to go for them. Export ammunition for the T-90S can easily penetrate much more than 500 mm steel armour at 2,000 m. Since the T-90S and the T-90MS feature the welded (enlarged) turret, they should also be able to adopt longer penetrators than 3BM-42 Mango.

DRDO new ammo for MK-2 will have penetration level of 600-650mm from 2000m which is better than most which are available for import..

And you know that for sure?
Besides, the Arjun's gun is still worse and 600 to 650 mm penetration at that range is still only early 1990s level of armour penetration and is also possible with T-90A, T-90S and T-90MS.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No, you said we should discuss T-90S with MK-1, but the thread started when the T-90MS was ordered by Indian army.

Thread started vs ArjunMK-1 vs T-90S of IA, the thread starter mentioned about Operational tanks not projects under developments..

This depends on the exact scenario. From the frontal aspect the T-90S is safer assuming both tanks got the same level of armour protection. From the sides the Arjun's hull ammo storage is in my opinion somewhat better, but the large turret amunition magazine (and afaik this is not isolated in Mk-1, correct?) is much easier to hit and much more likely to hit. But such statements are always based on an exact scenario.

In case of T-90S is lesser than Arjun as the Space is more in Arjun MK-1 as i have stated before the type of Kanchan Armour is, But T-90S have better cover than Arjun MK-1 specially at frontal Armour, Battlefield is very unpredictable and hence the cannot state open conclusions..

The images from the prototypes I have seen show exactly the same roadwheels and tracks. Even though, if the reported weight of 67 metric tons is correct, it is very unlikely that ground pressure does not increase.

Arjun MK2 have few photos and not worth for all answers..
You Should read about the interview from its designers :

INTERVIEW WITH Director, CVRDE, Dr Sivakumar

With the Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) and mine plough together weighing 3 tonnes and additional add-ons expected, the MK-2s weight is expected to increase from 62 tonne to 67 tonne. The suspension has been re-designed to handle 70 tonne. To cater to complaints of track shedding, the revised tracks will have an increased horn length (19 mm) and the wheels have become slightly bigger.

Livefist: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

The T-90S does have a lot of more option, India is just not willing to go for them. Export ammunition for the T-90S can easily penetrate much more than 500 mm steel armour at 2,000 m. .

Care to share some examples for T-90S not MS..

And you know that for sure? Besides, the Arjun's gun is still worse and 600 to 650 mm penetration at that range is still only early 1990s level of armour penetration and is also possible with T-90A, T-90S and T-90MS.

If i was not sure, I wouldn't care to reply..

An interview with DRDO Chief :

When we were doing 425 or 400 and production was on, the Army decided that we should go for a higher penetration capability, 600 mm, and they wanted to do it urgently because this was a post-Kargil requirement. So they went for import. And that import has unfortunately not fructified due to various reasons. Now because we realise that there is going to be a gap, we have already upgraded this (FSAPDS) to 500.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/-...ng-with-respect-to-our-capabilities-/943623/8


I am not comparing to world levels and its not in my interest either, What i told you and you see again if doubt that my comparison with available round open for import to India..

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Oh boy... you don't have slightest idea what you are talking about do you?

The TUSK kit added ERA to the hull sides, and TUSK-2 additional ERA to turret sides, but the basic thickness of turrets sides is and always was ~360-400mm, and is made from composite armor array.

The composite armor itself was replaced by newer versions several times. Seriously do you read anything I wrote about M1's history? Because it seems that history and technical details of such famous tank are preaty much unknown.



I use relative armor thickness calculator.

Relative armour thickness calculator

Thats what i am saying, modifications come in progressive models, now we have ERA on the front which actually not necessary but still nothing on the side, since India is not active in tank conflict like NATO evolution may be slower and reality to accept mistakes can be less in higher command.

Still massive scope for improvement and armor can be added in those areas easily as improvement.

This fails to show how T-90 is better than Arjun leaving out this point.