Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

shuvo@y2k10

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Heard these arguments and repeated lines which has filled 80% of the server, Enough of It. As if you are making tanks for Germany, France or USA.
Similarly you yourself have made baseless rants regarding every desi products on various threads. You do not even get tired of repeating the same hollow arguments over and over again.

FYI CVRDE is making tanks not myself. The main customer is IA which boasts the second largest army in the world and the 4th most powerful. Germany and France ranks lower.
 

Enquirer

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This is a youtube channel I follow and quite like for armored warfare and he has finally come around to making a video on India, and its not pretty.
What do you guys think of his arguments?

Viewer discretion, if you guys like the Arjun, be prepared for salt.

Some idiot posts an ill informed video on youtube, then folks rush to post it here as a gospel!

Most of the crap that he lists as 'defects' are fixed in Arjun Mk1A - stuff like blast proof door for ammunition etc!

Also, howz is the specs of DRDO designed FSAPDS projectile indicative of Arjun the tank?? Arjun will be able to fire a different penetrator if Army wants to field it!

Apparently this dude "finally come around to making a video on India". What luck for the desi slaves to be finally liberated from ignorance by white overlords!!!
 
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Kay

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It is one thing to compare the merits of T-90 vs Arjun, but comparing them on costs is very different. Buying T-90 means you are importing and losing forex. Buying Arjuns means you are circulating the money in the country, create jobs, expertise, diplomatic and technological power.
Army is capable of making decisions only based on army budget and is hopelessly out of its depth in making decisions that take into account the broader picture. That is why all these procurement decisions need to be made by MoD and the civilian leadership. As the saying goes - War is too important to be left to generals.
 

garg_bharat

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Kay you are wrong. There is no economic sense in buying Arjun. Most of Arjun is imported.

We have a well established infra for building T-90 at HVF Avadi.

T-90 is more local than Arjun. All critical components of Arjun, even tracks, are imported. It has German engine and German tracks.

Spares position is better with T-90.
 

Kay

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Kay you are wrong. There is no economic sense in buying Arjun. Most of Arjun is imported.

We have a well established infra for building T-90 at HVF Avadi.

T-90 is more local than Arjun. All critical components of Arjun, even tracks, are imported. It has German engine and German tracks.

Spares position is better with T-90.
For Arjun, the track and transmission are being replaced by Indian counterparts. The engine will continue to be German until replaced later.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.on...arjun-be-called-truly-indigenous-2669967.html

For T-90, what we have is "licensed. production" - which means assembly from knocked down kits. Translation of TOT documents took 6 years, gun and turret armour technology was not transferred, and so on.
Also, as per contract, the technology cannot be shared with Indian private companies.
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...-hurdle/story-esp93qooxlHEtnqxtN4mRO_amp.html

This is old news but still worth revisiting.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/11/t-90-tank-technology-transfer-supply-of.html?m=1
 

Kay

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For Arjun, the track and transmission are being replaced by Indian counterparts. The engine will continue to be German until replaced later.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.on...arjun-be-called-truly-indigenous-2669967.html

For T-90, what we have is "licensed. production" - which means assembly from knocked down kits. Translation of TOT documents took 6 years, gun and turret armour technology was not transferred, and so on.
Also, as per contract, the technology cannot be shared with Indian private companies.
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...-hurdle/story-esp93qooxlHEtnqxtN4mRO_amp.html

This is old news but still worth revisiting.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/11/t-90-tank-technology-transfer-supply-of.html?m=1
Also I did mention other benefits as well like expertise, technology independence, diplomatic power,etc., but somehow the conversation gets limited to costs.
 

neeraj_

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It is one thing to compare the merits of T-90 vs Arjun, but comparing them on costs is very different. Buying T-90 means you are importing and losing forex. Buying Arjuns means you are circulating the money in the country, create jobs, expertise, diplomatic and technological power.
Army is capable of making decisions only based on army budget and is hopelessly out of its depth in making decisions that take into account the broader picture. That is why all these procurement decisions need to be made by MoD and the civilian leadership. As the saying goes - War is too important to be left to generals.
Ideally we should start upgrading T 90 on our own with the systems developed for Arjun. I don't know how Russia is going to respond but replacing their systems with Indian will help the Arjun project .

Lighter tanks will be required to get inside Pakistan where infrastructure will not support heavy tanks but at the same time a 4 man crew will always mean 60+ tonne weight class with present tech.

Arjun is history we aren't getting more of it no matter how hard we try let's hope Future tank could be Indian based on the learning .
 

Bleh

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So, you think Arjun is Abrahams and Indian border is Iraq?
And 200 out of 400 T-90 will break down but all Arjun's will reach Afghanistan ?
From what's been demonstrated in front of the whole world, I'm being generous with the 50% break-down rate... it could easily be 100%.
Still the cost of Tank 7.6 millions will not be anywhere near superior T-90 which is half the price.
Yeah, no... no matter how much you shill for the Natashas, T-90 is not superior in almost any way or than the APFSDS & CLGM.

1. BOTH the T-90s representing India in last Tank Biathlon, which were probably ones in best condition chosen for the competition, broke down on a flat run on dirt track. And there was no talk of any issues or sabotage, meaning it's a normal for the unreliable piece of shit.

2. The thing can't hold an aim... you
can literally see its gun moving away from the target & readjusting back every second.As the Iraqis found out, low silhouette doesn't mean squat anymore... it's relevant for the likes of T-90, but not proper tanks with proper gun-stabilisation that can hit even a Jeep.

3. It's not faster than Arjun either... rather the acceleration seems to be quite slower than both Arjuns.

4. Arjun armour may have holes, but T-90's is like 2 strips on the turret & well-covered but thinner on hull.
(Orginal image had Leopard2A4, edited to fit Arjun)
IMG_20190508_085950_574.jpg


5. T-90 may be manufactured with 90% indigenous content against Arjun 60%, each other's better techs are clearly not being installed or modified for either... for reasons i don't know.

On the other hand, despite being a horrible platform design wise, the Paki
MBT-2000 aka Al Khalid now have been installed with a 1200hp Ukrainian engine, Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer & may be capable of firing the depleted-Uranium Naiza APFSDS round.
AL-KHALID-II.jpg

(On separate note, Modi should totally visit Crimea & officially recognise it as a part of Russia!)
 
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Kay

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Ideally we should start upgrading T 90 on our own with the systems developed for Arjun. I don't know how Russia is going to respond but replacing their systems with Indian will help the Arjun project .

Lighter tanks will be required to get inside Pakistan where infrastructure will not support heavy tanks but at the same time a 4 man crew will always mean 60+ tonne weight class with present tech.

Arjun is history we aren't getting more of it no matter how hard we try let's hope Future tank could be Indian based on the learning .
Every component developed for T-90 has to be certified by the Russians. Without certification, Russia is no longer liable for the working or performance of the tank. Current contract does not allow Indian private companies to develop components for T-90 though talks about it are ongoing.
In the past, there were Russian objections with Tank-Ex. Also, Russians did not provide many critical technologies for T-90 to India even when they had contractual obligation. They were provided only when further orders were given. Even sharing TOT documents were delayed.
Whatever technology discussions are happening now is because we have Arjun today. Designing and building your tank is different from license producing one.
Arjun is the way forward if India has to get a seat in the high table. If you want to become a Russian proxy state - buy Russian arms. If you want to become a western proxy state - buy western arms.
If the weight issue in Arjun is an insurmountable problem, replace the Arjun turret with smaller one with a bustle mounted autoloader - or even a T-90 or Armata like autoloader. But indegeneous design and development is a must.
 

Bhadra

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It is one thing to compare the merits of T-90 vs Arjun, but comparing them on costs is very different. Buying T-90 means you are importing and losing forex. Buying Arjuns means you are circulating the money in the country, create jobs, expertise, diplomatic and technological power.
Army is capable of making decisions only based on army budget and is hopelessly out of its depth in making decisions that take into account the broader picture. That is why all these procurement decisions need to be made by MoD and the civilian leadership. As the saying goes - War is too important to be left to generals.
Yes, it is actually a question of making and circulating the money.... importing 80% Arjun parts.

Desh jaye Bhad men ....

Buy Arjun and bury your "Cold Satrt" doctrine.... Who is Indian Army or MoD ?? DRDO and CRCDE will decide Indian Army Doctrine based on Arjun..

Forget about dashing anywhere. Take the Arjun pill box to Kasur town and start MOUT there with 70 ton tank.!!

Why does not CRVDE sell Arjun to CRPF to fight Naxals In Delhi, Chandigarh, Nagpur, Bangalore etc ??

It is certainly a INSAS story in the making ...:crying::crying::crying:
 

Kay

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Yes, it is actually a question of making and circulating the money.... importing 80% Arjun parts.

Desh jaye Bhad men ....

Buy Arjun and bury your "Cold Satrt" doctrine.... Who is Indian Army or MoD ?? DRDO and CRCDE will decide Indian Army Doctrine based on Arjun..

Forget about dashing anywhere. Take the Arjun pill box to Kasur town and start MOUT there with 70 ton tank.!!

Why does not CRVDE sell Arjun to CRPF to fight Naxals In Delhi, Chandigarh, Nagpur, Bangalore etc ??

It is certainly a INSAS story in the making ...:crying::crying::crying:
Just curious - if you don't mind - are you from the army?
 

neeraj_

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Every component developed for T-90 has to be certified by the Russians. Without certification, Russia is no longer liable for the working or performance of the tank. Current contract does not allow Indian private companies to develop components for T-90 though talks about it are ongoing.
In the past, there were Russian objections with Tank-Ex. Also, Russians did not provide many critical technologies for T-90 to India even when they had contractual obligation. They were provided only when further orders were given. Even sharing TOT documents were delayed.
Whatever technology discussions are happening now is because we have Arjun today. Designing and building your tank is different from license producing one.
Arjun is the way forward if India has to get a seat in the high table. If you want to become a Russian proxy state - buy Russian arms. If you want to become a western proxy state - buy western arms.
If the weight issue in Arjun is an insurmountable problem, replace the Arjun turret with smaller one with a bustle mounted autoloader - or even a T-90 or Armata like autoloader. But indegeneous design and development is a must.

You went round and round around my quotes eventually taking it to other direction

As I said we should try replacing these Russian system with Indian one and see the result . If Russia do not cooperate so be it a few prototypes with Indian system will not put much cost burden on arjun program.

Doing this and that to reduce the weight to an extent army desire for CSD mean an entire new tank which is OK if it is based on learning from arjun tank.

Russia is digging dollar from India is well known they have a cash starved defense sector which needs money to catch up on west. What should be bothering is we aren't able to use that situation in our favor like China did .

They hired lots of Russian scientists and learnt a lot with that route.

Now as I said arjun is dead only a RM like Gen VK Singh with decisive say and if in favor of Arjun can change the situation.

What is more important is next gen battle tank which must be Indian for now old tanks and T 90 ms will do.
 
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garg_bharat

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neeraj ji, Does not matter if we have Arjun or T-90, the role of tank in the next war will be small.

India needs to focus on fighters, submarines, ballistic and cruise missiles, standoff weapons, long range artillery and things like that.

Seize of cities is no longer fashionable.
 

Kay

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neeraj ji, Does not matter if we have Arjun or T-90, the role of tank in the next war will be small.

India needs to focus on fighters, submarines, ballistic and cruise missiles, standoff weapons, long range artillery and things like that.

Seize of cities is no longer fashionable.
Tanks still matter and will matter in next wars. How they will be used is going to be different. Same with fighters and artillery.
 

AmoghaVarsha

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Seems Pakis are trying to buy T90s. They have started discussions with Russia to buy 350 plus T90s.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

garg_bharat

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Tanks still matter and will matter in next wars. How they will be used is going to be different. Same with fighters and artillery.
Anyway critical issue for Arjun is that its engine and transmission are imported from Germany. Since these parts are very low volume, price is very high.

There is no localization of these critical parts. Tracks are also imported from Germany.

T-90 has more localization, may be gun is imported but mechanical components are made in India.
 

Kay

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Anyway critical issue for Arjun is that its engine and transmission are imported from Germany. Since these parts are very low volume, price is very high.

There is no localization of these critical parts. Tracks are also imported from Germany.

T-90 has more localization, may be gun is imported but mechanical components are made in India.
As I have said and provided link above, German tracks are being replaced by L&T developed tracks. An indegeneous transmission is also being tested. The engine will remain German as of now, but will get replaced eventually.
 

bose

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As I have said and provided link above, German tracks are being replaced by L&T developed tracks. An indegeneous transmission is also being tested. The engine will remain German as of now, but will get replaced eventually.
I also read somewhere that an indigenous engine with 1500 HP is also considered if Army orders around 500 units in total ...
 
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samsaptaka

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...

Apparently this dude "finally come around to making a video on India". What luck for the desi slaves to be finally liberated from ignorance by white overlords!!!
Very true. The amount of hatred whites have on the internet for Bharatiyas is immeasurable. Its a weird combination of factors - outsourcing, part inferiority/superiority complex, part jealousy, part pure hatred, part xtian/abrahamic hatred, part ignorance etc...
 

samsaptaka

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Is there any article written by actual tank operators in the indian army who have served on both Arjun and T-90 and have compared the pros & cons ?
 

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