Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by nitesh, Feb 12, 2009.

  1. shuvo@y2k10

    [email protected] Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes that is the thread. We debated for years about the arjun mk1 armour layout back then. This was a time when arjun mk2 was slowly coming into of the picture. It was developed by DRDO at a record speed of 2 years though it needed another 3-4 years to mature.

    Unfortunately both of them are not that active now though @ersathtivel sometimes appers in LCA tejas thread. The reason I called them legends of DFI (along with late Ray sir and @sayareakd) was because they were the ones who promoted indegeneous weapons and countered unscientific narrative about the inferiority of desi products compared to shiny foreign toys. Similar to what @Sjha is doing in twitter.
     
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  2. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Heard these arguments and repeated lines which has filled 80% of the server, Enough of It. As if you are making tanks for Germany, France or USA.
     
  3. shuvo@y2k10

    [email protected] Senior Member Senior Member

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    Similarly you yourself have made baseless rants regarding every desi products on various threads. You do not even get tired of repeating the same hollow arguments over and over again.

    FYI CVRDE is making tanks not myself. The main customer is IA which boasts the second largest army in the world and the 4th most powerful. Germany and France ranks lower.
     
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  4. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    Some idiot posts an ill informed video on youtube, then folks rush to post it here as a gospel!

    Most of the crap that he lists as 'defects' are fixed in Arjun Mk1A - stuff like blast proof door for ammunition etc!

    Also, howz is the specs of DRDO designed FSAPDS projectile indicative of Arjun the tank?? Arjun will be able to fire a different penetrator if Army wants to field it!

    Apparently this dude "finally come around to making a video on India". What luck for the desi slaves to be finally liberated from ignorance by white overlords!!!
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  5. Kay

    Kay Senior Member Senior Member

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    It is one thing to compare the merits of T-90 vs Arjun, but comparing them on costs is very different. Buying T-90 means you are importing and losing forex. Buying Arjuns means you are circulating the money in the country, create jobs, expertise, diplomatic and technological power.
    Army is capable of making decisions only based on army budget and is hopelessly out of its depth in making decisions that take into account the broader picture. That is why all these procurement decisions need to be made by MoD and the civilian leadership. As the saying goes - War is too important to be left to generals.
     
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  6. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    Kay you are wrong. There is no economic sense in buying Arjun. Most of Arjun is imported.

    We have a well established infra for building T-90 at HVF Avadi.

    T-90 is more local than Arjun. All critical components of Arjun, even tracks, are imported. It has German engine and German tracks.

    Spares position is better with T-90.
     
  7. Kay

    Kay Senior Member Senior Member

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    For Arjun, the track and transmission are being replaced by Indian counterparts. The engine will continue to be German until replaced later.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.on...arjun-be-called-truly-indigenous-2669967.html

    For T-90, what we have is "licensed. production" - which means assembly from knocked down kits. Translation of TOT documents took 6 years, gun and turret armour technology was not transferred, and so on.
    Also, as per contract, the technology cannot be shared with Indian private companies.
    https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...-hurdle/story-esp93qooxlHEtnqxtN4mRO_amp.html

    This is old news but still worth revisiting.
    http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/11/t-90-tank-technology-transfer-supply-of.html?m=1
     
  8. Kay

    Kay Senior Member Senior Member

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    Also I did mention other benefits as well like expertise, technology independence, diplomatic power,etc., but somehow the conversation gets limited to costs.
     
  9. neeraj_

    neeraj_ Regular Member

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    Ideally we should start upgrading T 90 on our own with the systems developed for Arjun. I don't know how Russia is going to respond but replacing their systems with Indian will help the Arjun project .

    Lighter tanks will be required to get inside Pakistan where infrastructure will not support heavy tanks but at the same time a 4 man crew will always mean 60+ tonne weight class with present tech.

    Arjun is history we aren't getting more of it no matter how hard we try let's hope Future tank could be Indian based on the learning .
     
  10. Bleh

    Bleh Senior Member Senior Member

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    From what's been demonstrated in front of the whole world, I'm being generous with the 50% break-down rate... it could easily be 100%.
    Yeah, no... no matter how much you shill for the Natashas, T-90 is not superior in almost any way or than the APFSDS & CLGM.

    1. BOTH the T-90s representing India in last Tank Biathlon, which were probably ones in best condition chosen for the competition, broke down on a flat run on dirt track. And there was no talk of any issues or sabotage, meaning it's a normal for the unreliable piece of shit.

    2. The thing can't hold an aim... you
    can literally see its gun moving away from the target & readjusting back every second.
    As the Iraqis found out, low silhouette doesn't mean squat anymore... it's relevant for the likes of T-90, but not proper tanks with proper gun-stabilisation that can hit even a Jeep.


    3. It's not faster than Arjun either... rather the acceleration seems to be quite slower than both Arjuns.


    4. Arjun armour may have holes, but T-90's is like 2 strips on the turret & well-covered but thinner on hull.
    (Orginal image had Leopard2A4, edited to fit Arjun)
    IMG_20190508_085950_574.jpg

    5. T-90 may be manufactured with 90% indigenous content against Arjun 60%, each other's better techs are clearly not being installed or modified for either... for reasons i don't know.

    On the other hand, despite being a horrible platform design wise, the Paki
    MBT-2000 aka Al Khalid now have been installed with a 1200hp Ukrainian engine, Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer & may be capable of firing the depleted-Uranium Naiza APFSDS round. AL-KHALID-II.jpg
    (On separate note, Modi should totally visit Crimea & officially recognise it as a part of Russia!)
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  11. Kay

    Kay Senior Member Senior Member

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    Every component developed for T-90 has to be certified by the Russians. Without certification, Russia is no longer liable for the working or performance of the tank. Current contract does not allow Indian private companies to develop components for T-90 though talks about it are ongoing.
    In the past, there were Russian objections with Tank-Ex. Also, Russians did not provide many critical technologies for T-90 to India even when they had contractual obligation. They were provided only when further orders were given. Even sharing TOT documents were delayed.
    Whatever technology discussions are happening now is because we have Arjun today. Designing and building your tank is different from license producing one.
    Arjun is the way forward if India has to get a seat in the high table. If you want to become a Russian proxy state - buy Russian arms. If you want to become a western proxy state - buy western arms.
    If the weight issue in Arjun is an insurmountable problem, replace the Arjun turret with smaller one with a bustle mounted autoloader - or even a T-90 or Armata like autoloader. But indegeneous design and development is a must.
     
  12. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Yes, it is actually a question of making and circulating the money.... importing 80% Arjun parts.

    Desh jaye Bhad men ....

    Buy Arjun and bury your "Cold Satrt" doctrine.... Who is Indian Army or MoD ?? DRDO and CRCDE will decide Indian Army Doctrine based on Arjun..

    Forget about dashing anywhere. Take the Arjun pill box to Kasur town and start MOUT there with 70 ton tank.!!

    Why does not CRVDE sell Arjun to CRPF to fight Naxals In Delhi, Chandigarh, Nagpur, Bangalore etc ??

    It is certainly a INSAS story in the making ...:crying::crying::crying:
     
  13. Kay

    Kay Senior Member Senior Member

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    Just curious - if you don't mind - are you from the army?
     
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  14. neeraj_

    neeraj_ Regular Member

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    You went round and round around my quotes eventually taking it to other direction

    As I said we should try replacing these Russian system with Indian one and see the result . If Russia do not cooperate so be it a few prototypes with Indian system will not put much cost burden on arjun program.

    Doing this and that to reduce the weight to an extent army desire for CSD mean an entire new tank which is OK if it is based on learning from arjun tank.

    Russia is digging dollar from India is well known they have a cash starved defense sector which needs money to catch up on west. What should be bothering is we aren't able to use that situation in our favor like China did .

    They hired lots of Russian scientists and learnt a lot with that route.

    Now as I said arjun is dead only a RM like Gen VK Singh with decisive say and if in favor of Arjun can change the situation.

    What is more important is next gen battle tank which must be Indian for now old tanks and T 90 ms will do.
     
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  15. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    neeraj ji, Does not matter if we have Arjun or T-90, the role of tank in the next war will be small.

    India needs to focus on fighters, submarines, ballistic and cruise missiles, standoff weapons, long range artillery and things like that.

    Seize of cities is no longer fashionable.
     
  16. Kay

    Kay Senior Member Senior Member

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    Tanks still matter and will matter in next wars. How they will be used is going to be different. Same with fighters and artillery.
     
  17. AmoghaVarsha

    AmoghaVarsha Senior Member Senior Member

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    Seems Pakis are trying to buy T90s. They have started discussions with Russia to buy 350 plus T90s.



    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
     
  18. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    Anyway critical issue for Arjun is that its engine and transmission are imported from Germany. Since these parts are very low volume, price is very high.

    There is no localization of these critical parts. Tracks are also imported from Germany.

    T-90 has more localization, may be gun is imported but mechanical components are made in India.
     
  19. Kay

    Kay Senior Member Senior Member

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    As I have said and provided link above, German tracks are being replaced by L&T developed tracks. An indegeneous transmission is also being tested. The engine will remain German as of now, but will get replaced eventually.
     
  20. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    I also read somewhere that an indigenous engine with 1500 HP is also considered if Army orders around 500 units in total ...
     
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