Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[Vinod DX9]

Worst thing is, when American (and European equivalents ) M829-A4 120 mm RHAe has achieved a penetration of 1000+ mm RHAe at 2000 mtrs, 0° angle, MAHAAN DRDO made sabots for Arjun achieves just 525-575 mm RHAe officially, 650 mm max unofficially

 

[Vinod DX9]

Why doesn't he tell everyone that most of European bridges (as other developed countries) were upgrade to support 70ton tank during cold war.

Bridges in India are not the problem. There is enough infra in India to support 70ton tanks. Army has a problem with bridges in Pakistan. As per them it is not strong enough. But with CPEC that problem is solved too. Pak's infra will be upgraded and so making it easier for Indian tanks. Thank you Xi Jinping.

Let's assume Bridge problem remains both in India and Pakistan.
Have you seen weight for FRCV India has issued RFI for? FRCV will cross 60T weight!
As they are fireign maal, weight issue will be diminished magically

 

[nongaddarliberal]

US Marines has M1A1 Abrams. And US Marine is one arm of armed forces of US that is expected to be deployed and fight on every possible spot on earth.

Certainly, they were not worried about Iraq having 70 ton rated bridges. Or if NoKO bridges have those load wearing capacities.

M1A1 was built for maximum protection so is our Arjun. Increase in weight is obvious.

It is only when the 125mm shells start flying towards our tanks will the Army realize the value of protection. It is quite telling that the T 90 is never shown without its ERA, as if its part of the tank body itself. It's not. For both the T 80 and T 90, it is the protocol that you never deploy these tanks without the ERA. I don't think I've ever seem a video of the T 90 operating without its ERA. Not only that, Russian tanks have a whole lot of boxes around the turret which gives it a modern appearance. Remove both the ERA and those storage boxes, and you will have one of the most weird looking tanks in the world. No other country has such a philosophy with its tanks. The protection of all other tanks is primarily measured by its actual armour, and ERA packages are seen as optional. Arjun Mk 1's protection was superior even without ERA's vs T 90 with ERA's.

Secondly, the ammunition storage problem has not gone away in the T 90. The crew is sitting unprotected on top of all the ammunition. We saw what happens when these go off in the first gulf war. Compare that to the Abrams and Leopard which have them stowed away in the back behind blast doors. Arjun can also be easily modified to have the same.

 

[Craigs]

Worst thing is, when American (and European equivalents ) M829-A4 120 mm RHAe has achieved a penetration of 1000+ mm RHAe at 2000 mtrs, 0° angle, MAHAAN DRDO made sabots for Arjun achieves just 525-575 mm RHAe officially, 650 mm max unofficially

We are not fighting European or Russian tanks, we are fighting Pakistani tanks and so the penetration is good enough. There is a cost too for the higher penetrating sabots. If the target does not require them why should we spend money to make them.

 

[Vinod DX9]

Forget money....we need basic infrastructure. To make a high kill sabot we need long rod penetrators. They will be heavy as hell. To make them charged huge propellant need. To sustain huge pressure and heat, high pressure barrel we need. And for that we need high knowledge in metallurgy.

By the way, Pakistan buying VT-4 (or T-84) Front armour with ERA will go 800-900 mm RHAe.

 

[binayak95]

I was looking at videos of the Strong Europe tank competition that took place recently. It just occured to me that if Arjun was participating in it, it would fit perfectly in with the other NATO tanks in terms of appearance, performance, crew roles, accuracy etc. The T 90 on the other hand would have looked very odd in that crowd.

That's because the Arjun is basically further work on the Leopard 2A4. It was built to counter a possible acquisition of M1 Abrams by Pakistan.

 

[Craigs]

Forget money....we need basic infrastructure. To make a high kill sabot we need long rod penetrators. They will be heavy as hell. To make them charged huge propellant need. To sustain huge pressure and heat, high pressure barrel we need. And for that we need high knowledge in metallurgy.

By the way, Pakistan buying VT-4 (or T-84) Front armour with ERA will go 800-900 mm RHAe.

Pakistan and 'buying' don't go together. More like 'begging' and beggars can't be choosers. Even if they get some it will be so few in numbers that it can be easily tackled by ATGM teams/ RCL teams etc.

 

[Craigs]

Forget money....we need basic infrastructure. To make a high kill sabot we need long rod penetrators. They will be heavy as hell. To make them charged huge propellant need. To sustain huge pressure and heat, high pressure barrel we need. And for that we need high knowledge in metallurgy.

By the way, Pakistan buying VT-4 (or T-84) Front armour with ERA will go 800-900 mm RHAe.

If we can make Dhanush and ATAGS then don't you think our knowledge of metallurgy is not that outdated?

 

[Vinod DX9]

We can make such radars which can detect even F-22...yet we can't make jet engines. Many thing we can now, many can't. We must learn what we can't.
By the way it doesn't matter how Pakistan gets tank, It will get, we need to focus on that

 

[Craigs]

We can make such radars which can detect even F-22...yet we can't make jet engines. Many thing we can now, many can't. We must learn what we can't.
By the way it doesn't matter how Pakistan gets tank, It will get, we need to focus on that

Your query was about metallurgy for high pressure gun barrels. So the example of Dhanush and ATAGS is relevant. Anyway, as I mentioned even if Pakistan manages to get some it will be so few that it can be easily tackled in an asymmetric fashion. There is no need to invest huge cost to tackle a hand full of Paki tanks with heavy armor. Our infra should be geared to defeat the vast majority of their regular armor not a handful of high end show pieces.

 

[tharun]

New MBT into market EMBT...
The leopard chasis and the lelerc turret with autoloading system

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

 

[WolfPack86]

After reading this, it's safe to speculate that Pak is going ahead with #VT4 instead of #OplotP. Oplot is suffering from problems related to Gun stabilization, FCS & wiring insulation. Not to include Ukrainian questionable tank production capacity.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/vt4?lang=en

 

[WolfPack86]

It seems like Pakistan is going for VT 4 tank after Oplot tank failed in trials.

 

[patriots]

https://www.quora.com/How-DRDO-redu...n-mk-2-from-68-ton-to-58-ton-as-army-required


how drdo will reduce arjuns weight .......answer by our dfi member soikot ...bhai. . ... . .


1.The baseline hull of the Arjun Mk.2 will no longer be built with imported low-carbon, nickel-chromium-molybdenum rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) steel, but with lighter high-nitrogen steel (HNS) whose production technology has been created by the DRDO’s Hyderabad-based Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) and has been transferred to Jindal Stainless Steel Ltd (Hisar).


2.CVRDE has collaborated with Dynamatic Technologies Ltd , which specialises in complex, five-axis robotic machining, as well as in converting two-dimension paper blueprints into three-dimension computer model that are more precise, and have tighter tolerances. Digitising the drawings creates a baseline configuration for greater accuracy. This in turn streamlines manufacturing, since conventional manufacturing based on two-dimensional paper blueprints tend to leave tiny gaps between the different components of an assembly that were filled with shims, leading to increased weight. But by digitising blueprints, those tiny gaps can be entirely eliminated during the manufacturing process.

3.The CVRDE has collaborated with the Alicon Group for building all-aluminium road-wheels and ventilators for not only the Arjun Mk.2, but also for the IA’s existing upgraded T-72CIA medium tanks. They will replace the all-steel road-wheels built by Sundaram Industries for the Arjun Mk.1A. Similarly, TATA Power SED has been contracted for producing all-electric turret stabilisation/traverse systems, in place of the existing electro-hydraulic system.


4.Interesting fact is that DRDO has alienated itself from collaborating with OFB and chosen to give material manufacturing to private and OFB as just integrator, thus keeping in chech the shoddy perfromance of OFB.
source...trishul

 

[Steven Rogers]

https://www.quora.com/How-DRDO-redu...n-mk-2-from-68-ton-to-58-ton-as-army-required


how drdo will reduce arjuns weight .......answer by our dfi member soikot ...bhai. . ... . .


1.The baseline hull of the Arjun Mk.2 will no longer be built with imported low-carbon, nickel-chromium-molybdenum rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) steel, but with lighter high-nitrogen steel (HNS) whose production technology has been created by the DRDO’s Hyderabad-based Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) and has been transferred to Jindal Stainless Steel Ltd (Hisar).


2.CVRDE has collaborated with Dynamatic Technologies Ltd , which specialises in complex, five-axis robotic machining, as well as in converting two-dimension paper blueprints into three-dimension computer model that are more precise, and have tighter tolerances. Digitising the drawings creates a baseline configuration for greater accuracy. This in turn streamlines manufacturing, since conventional manufacturing based on two-dimensional paper blueprints tend to leave tiny gaps between the different components of an assembly that were filled with shims, leading to increased weight. But by digitising blueprints, those tiny gaps can be entirely eliminated during the manufacturing process.

3.The CVRDE has collaborated with the Alicon Group for building all-aluminium road-wheels and ventilators for not only the Arjun Mk.2, but also for the IA’s existing upgraded T-72CIA medium tanks. They will replace the all-steel road-wheels built by Sundaram Industries for the Arjun Mk.1A. Similarly, TATA Power SED has been contracted for producing all-electric turret stabilisation/traverse systems, in place of the existing electro-hydraulic system.


4.Interesting fact is that DRDO has alienated itself from collaborating with OFB and chosen to give material manufacturing to private and OFB as just integrator, thus keeping in chech the shoddy perfromance of OFB.
source...trishul

Good read by drdo through their science journals have already stated that HNS will be used on APC, ICVs but not for heavy tanks.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

From the DRDO ' s own doccument the HNS steel is to be used for application such ICV, helicopters, naval boats etc where protection required against AK 47, 7.62 ball, 7.62 AP, 12.7 AP projectiles etc.

Source : https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/IITM/Write-up_High_Nitrogen_Steel.pdf

I don't know why some defence journos like Sjha and Prasun Sengupta are saying otherwise.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

If all goes well, how many Arjuns can we expect the army to buy?

 

[Archer]

This is wrong. No casual commentator on the net, especially the Polacks posting on the board have a real idea of the actual RHAe protection offered by the baseline Arjun armor arrays. What we do know is that serving IA officers have remarked the Arjun is the heaviest armored tank in the inventory. This WAG is pointless.
PS: ERA was added to the Arjun not for APFSDS protection, but against heavy ATGMs. IA was concerned repeated strikes would degrade the composite armor which would not be field reparable. They wanted field replaceable ERA modules for that very reason.

Agreed to most points, except that part...
Arjun's tech might be India's latest one's, but the base platform is not. The Mark 2 seems like a jugaad upgrade of it.

You said "heavy armour of Arjun". Ok, take a look at this...

When an Al Khalid fires 5 Naiza DU shots, aiming for the centre of its silhouette, how many do you think will go clean through & kill a crewman?
View attachment 23981
Unless it hits the blue area, probably 4 out of 5... 3 if the crew is lucky.

In case of a tank, it's the opponent gunner that should be the one who gets lucky, not our tankies, don't you think?
However a T-90 would fare better, atleast at longer ranges...

 

[Enquirer]

https://www.quora.com/How-DRDO-redu...n-mk-2-from-68-ton-to-58-ton-as-army-required


how drdo will reduce arjuns weight .......answer by our dfi member soikot ...bhai. . ... . .


1.The baseline hull of the Arjun Mk.2 will no longer be built with imported low-carbon, nickel-chromium-molybdenum rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) steel, but with lighter high-nitrogen steel (HNS) whose production technology has been created by the DRDO’s Hyderabad-based Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) and has been transferred to Jindal Stainless Steel Ltd (Hisar).


2.CVRDE has collaborated with Dynamatic Technologies Ltd , which specialises in complex, five-axis robotic machining, as well as in converting two-dimension paper blueprints into three-dimension computer model that are more precise, and have tighter tolerances. Digitising the drawings creates a baseline configuration for greater accuracy. This in turn streamlines manufacturing, since conventional manufacturing based on two-dimensional paper blueprints tend to leave tiny gaps between the different components of an assembly that were filled with shims, leading to increased weight. But by digitising blueprints, those tiny gaps can be entirely eliminated during the manufacturing process.

3.The CVRDE has collaborated with the Alicon Group for building all-aluminium road-wheels and ventilators for not only the Arjun Mk.2, but also for the IA’s existing upgraded T-72CIA medium tanks. They will replace the all-steel road-wheels built by Sundaram Industries for the Arjun Mk.1A. Similarly, TATA Power SED has been contracted for producing all-electric turret stabilisation/traverse systems, in place of the existing electro-hydraulic system.


4.Interesting fact is that DRDO has alienated itself from collaborating with OFB and chosen to give material manufacturing to private and OFB as just integrator, thus keeping in chech the shoddy perfromance of OFB.
source...trishul

This sounds like someone regurgitating what that quack PKS said sometime back. PKS claimed that HNS based Arjun will be built within 18 months from when the project was supposed to have begun - complete fluff!!

Also, what’s this nonsense about digital design having better ‘tolerances’ than paper design???
A digital (CAD/CAM) designs have mostly been productionanized using regular (non-automated/robotic) production techniques world over. Just because a company scanned paper designs to covert them into a digital database (an exercise which could take a year or so in order to make sure there are no ‘errors’ in the conversion) doesn’t mean that the production line will be equipped with scores of heavy-duty 6-axis robots!! When did CVRDE mention that they’re setting up a brand NEW robotic production line? CVRDE still hasn’t recovered the setup costs for the original Arjun (and as such keeps insisting on bigger orders to recoup the original costs)!!!

Also, new metallurgy/design will mean re-running ALL tests on the new-Arjun! Which means 4-5 years of trials AFTER 3-4 years of design/development. All-in-all another 7-9 years wait for induction!!

Why would Army wait for another 9 years to get the same Arjun features (with a minor 3-4 tonne weight saving from an overweight 68 tonne tank)??? Would it not just ask for the FRCV in the next 9-10 years??

In all probability Arjun Mk2 will finally come with some weight reductions due to aluminum wheels etc. And that’s all!!! HNS, if used, will go directly into FRCV etc.

 

[Kay]

I think the whole military fraternity is unsure about the role and possible specifications of future tanks.
With proliferation of newer anti-tank missiles, tank designers face tough choices with no obvious answers.