Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[Johny_Baba]

now check the above video with this one and place the tank crew on either side of the gun


they are sitting on death trap, if tank is breached, with hot gasses then its Diwali inside.

Sayare sir,check this video of T-72 autoloader in action

 

[Guest]

TOW missile vs Syrian T90 tank:
I would not call T90 as shit. It is a decent tank.

It was a front on hit on heaviest armor, and I see the crew escaping from inside. Nothing is shown what happened next. T90 don't carry ammunition in excess of auto loader to avoid the exploding of tank since the ammo is in open in the hull, This reduces the ammunition carrying capability to half.

Vajpayee got the ToT as India did not have capability to make a tank in early 2000s. It was definitely a good deal that helped India augment its tank fleet. I don't see ToTs as rip-offs. They will be made in house anyways and the design cost is 0 for India.

India was already making T-72, India had already made Vijayanta tanks. It was a very bad deal which did only one thing i.e. bail out the Russian tank industry, Like we bailed out their Sukhoi aircraft designers and manufacturers otherwise It is just like Jf-17 deal without Indian name on It.

 

[tharun]

now check the above video with this one and place the tank crew on either side of the gun


they are sitting on death trap, if tank is breached, with hot gasses then its Diwali inside.

Even T-90 is same....
Sitting on 30+ landmines,we need to get rid of these junk.

Sent from my AO5510 using Tapatalk

 

[binayak95]

this survive as the Missile hit the hardest part of the tank, had it hit the side part, like in the T72 in Syria here


as i said earlier it would lit like Diwali rocket.

here T90S in flames

https://translate.google.co.in/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://baodatviet.vn/quoc-phong/vu-khi/nguyen-nhan-soc-khien-kip-lai-t-90-phai-mo-cua-tai-syria-3327873/&edit-text=&act=url

here another T72B does it looks familiar

Pic is taken from this https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/09/22/russias-6th-tank-brigade/

this turret looks familiar to T72BU

View attachment 23921

see its a scam, even officers associated with IA didn't said its upgraded T72M tank, with new name T90s, its old name is T72BU.

Saya sir, all tanks have very poor side protection. All tanks. Challenger IIs, Abrams, Merkavas, that is how it is. One cannot have similar levels of protection on all sides of the tanks. Especially with the hulls. And russian turret design is much better than the western turret design. Russian hemispherical turrets are actually well protected from all sides.

Even the Arjun Mkii has poor side armour and most AT missiles/rounds will go through easily.

Yes, the carousel is horrible design feature. Independently housed ammo in blow out containers is the best way to go.

 

[Suryavanshi]

@binayak95 @Mikesingh exactly who approves our tank for induction.
If we are confident enough in our tank can't we just sack those officers and manuver through all the blockage.

 

[Kshithij]

It was a front on hit on heaviest armor, and I see the crew escaping from inside. Nothing is shown what happened next. T90 don't carry ammunition in excess of auto loader to avoid the exploding of tank since the ammo is in open in the hull, This reduces the ammunition carrying capability to half.



India was already making T-72, India had already made Vijayanta tanks. It was a very bad deal which did only one thing i.e. bail out the Russian tank industry, Like we bailed out their Sukhoi aircraft designers and manufacturers otherwise It is just like Jf-17 deal without Indian name on It.

Abrams tank carry 41 rounds of ammunition. T90 has 43 rounds of ammunition. So, ammunition being cut by half is wrong.

Su30 is comparable to JF17? Are you serious? Mind you, entire Su30 is made in India from raw material, including engine. You call this as bailing out Russia? What makes you think that Russia was desperate to give away such technology?

T90 tanks are not obsolete. The T90 may be upgraded T72 but the upgrade is significant.

 

[binayak95]

Just read that Avadi will roll out the 745th Indian built T-90 this week or so. Anyone know the specs of the latest Indian T-90s? Do they carry, as has been rumoured, kanchan armour, Indian ERA, Indian gun, FCS and sights? @sayareakd @Kunal Biswas

 

[sayareakd]

T90 tanks are not obsolete. The T90 may be upgraded T72 but the upgrade is significant.

We did not said its obsolete, just that it has same characteristics, which means its coffin on tracks.
Now those upgrades. 60% plus was T72M parts, Russians didn't share armor or gun tech, drdo had to be called in to save T90s made in India. No active protection, APU, or AC or cooler.

We waited for 4 years for Govt to come in and allowed bulk order, but they didn't. Now after 4 years govt wake up and started ordering some defence equipments in election year.

 

[Mikesingh]

@binayak95 @Mikesingh exactly who approves our tank for induction.
If we are confident enough in our tank can't we just sack those officers and manuver through all the blockage.

In general, with inputs available on various performance-cost alternatives, the final decision for induction of a weapons system will be made by the three services. In this case where tanks are concerned, the Army. But it will be an informed decision and not taken in isolation without cost considerations.

However, in India we have kickbacks to contend with too. The money from these slush funds go into the kitties of political parties. You can't sack the bureaucrats to speed up things as they are important cogs in the well-oiled wheel of corruption. So negotiations with the vendors stretches way beyond schedule to strike a plum deal.

For example, the PTB (Powers That Be) tried to bribe one very senior officer, a Lt General who was DG Mech Forces in charge of Arjun trials many years ago for approving induction of the early models of the Arjun Tank in spite of it being not up to the mark in various parameters, at that juncture. He flatly refused, but the pressure was so much from the PTB that he resigned in disgust.

There are wheels within wheels. As the saying goes, it's the money that makes the mare go! By the way, not all procurements/inductions fall in this category. But lucrative ones mostly do.

 

[Bleh]

Disclaimer:

• No, I'm not a Paki agent.
• No, I'm not a Chinki agent.
• The following points are sincerely raised. That's how I see the situation.
• I might be wrong... so feel free to correct them.
• Otherwise, please just agree to disagree.

Ok so, what would be the reasons for Indian Army to switch to Arjun Mark ii instead of making do with T-90MS until GNMBT arrives?

Protection:

• Both have similar amount of Armour.
• Both have non-isolated ammo stowed in hull!
• Both have side protection that can be penetrated easily.
• Neither have any APS (T-90MS might & DRDO is developing one).
• Arjun has huge lower glacis & weak points on the turret!

Ammunition:

• T-90 has better penetrators & fully operational CLGM.
• Arjun offers more variety of ammo.
• Neither can penetrate front of MBT-3000 or ZTZ-99 at distance.
• Both use sub-par gun tech. compared to western standard.
• T-90 MS shouldn't be less accurate than Arjun Mark ii.

Mobility:

• Both have VERY similar ground pressure, might improve for Arjun with ongoing weight reduction).
• Both have similar P/W ratio of about 23-25, if latest engines are used.
• Neither will get to cross (already blown) Paki bridges, nor the 45tonne capable old Indian bridges.
• Neither uses latest engines (Mark2 is yet to use the desi 1500hp & MS export variant has a 1130hp instead of 1250hp).

Logistics:

• T-90 has it in place & operational, probability of commonality with GNMBT
• Though available, HUGE investments to be done to fully adopt Arjun now.

Technology:

• Arjun has superior tech. Much of it presently imported, but being indigenized fast.
• Arjun is not superior as a platform. It has no advantage other than NEWER tech.
• T-90 has more indigenous content. Could be as high as 100% of installed with Arjun tech.
• T-90 have glaring shortcomings, especially with tech & crew being prone to overheating.
• Arjun have glaring shortcomings, especially with the front being either superbly armoured or barely protected.

For some reason we haven't (been able to?) incorporate the techs developed for Arjun into a "desi T-90 variant" like the Pakis atleast tried to with Al khalid. Why?
Both are very mediocre tanks... Arjun is better, but is it better enough to replace T-90 Bhishma?
Or should we just cut our losses on Arjun like Russia's Black Eagle (most countries have one, come to think of it) & concentrate on using all the knowledge gained with Arjun to perfect the GNMBT?

Even better... Why not try & have Arjun as an export only model like MBT-2000?

A response from @sayareakd @binayak95 would be appreciated...

 

[Pandeyji]

Arjun is better, but is it better enough to replace T-90 Bhishma?

It already proved itself better than T90 in a rigged trial (rigged in the favor of T90).

 

[Bleh]

It already proved itself better than T90 in a rigged trial (rigged in the favor of T90).

That fact doesn't address any of the concerns I've raised...read the very 1st sentence of my post (after disclaimer)!

Yes, Arjun is better, but T-90 still holds some key advantages like ammo penetration & fewer weak spots in front armour. Cross-country speed is also similar in both...

 

[jat]

That fact doesn't address any of the concerns I've raised...read the very 1st sentence of my post (after disclaimer)!

Yes, Arjun is better, but T-90 still holds some key advantages like ammo penetration & fewer weak spots in front armour. Cross-country speed is also similar in both...

Forget which tech is better or mature if the spare parts are not available to mechanics. Thats the prime disadvantage of Arjun and even to an extent the T-90. The reason why IA loves the T-90 is because the availability which is provided thanks to numbers, simplicity of design and common mechanics with T-72. Arjun is better on paper, but its weaknesses is in its availability and i'm not talking about drink warmers or mini fridges. The only way around this is to build enough Arjuns and spares with a private partner. The NGMBT could just be a lower weight of Arjun with Arjuns technology like the suspension or gun. That doesn't mean Arjun 1 or 2 is obsolete. Infact the heavier armor would give it a different role. Even with new active defenses the idea of slabbing on armor won't die anytime soon. Heavier tanks will always be needed as seen with other tanks. Hell even the Chinese have a heavy tank to sophisticated compared to their simple designs. So why can't IA have 2 or 3 tier of tanks. Light, medium and heavy. Arjun is well placed to be a heavy tank for IA doctrine. Even if you remove the need for heavy tanks, you'll always need medium tanks and light tanks. And if you put enough armor on a medium tank, it becomes a heavy tank. And honestly give some credit to MoD.
Also, the cross-country would be better on a vehicle with better suspension.

 

[Bleh]

That doesn't mean Arjun 1 or 2 is obsolete. Infact the heavier armor would give it a different role.

Agreed to most points, except that part...
Arjun's tech might be India's latest one's, but the base platform is not. The Mark 2 seems like a jugaad upgrade of it.

You said "heavy armour of Arjun". Ok, take a look at this...

When an Al Khalid fires 5 Naiza DU shots, aiming for the centre of its silhouette, how many do you think will go clean through & kill a crewman?

Unless it hits the blue area, probably 4 out of 5... 3 if the crew is lucky.

In case of a tank, it's the opponent gunner that should be the one who gets lucky, not our tankies, don't you think?
However a T-90 would fare better, atleast at longer ranges...

 

[tharun]

When an Al Khalid fires 5 Naiza DU shots, aiming for the centre of its silhouette, how many do you think will go clean through & kill a crewman?

"When an" Buddy no one the tank sits idle or gives enough time for the enemy to put 5 rounds at the same spot.
Second we have defensive systems which will give early warning aka soft kill
Future tanks will have hard kill systems to combat threats.

 

[Bleh]

"When an" Buddy no one the tank sits idle or gives enough time for the enemy to put 5 rounds at the same spot.
Second we have defensive systems which will give early warning aka soft kill
Future tanks will have hard kill systems to combat threats.

C'mon. It's a hypothetical scenario...
Nonetheless, the point I was trying to make still stands.

Suppose the APS took some arty shrapnels & is malfunctioning...
Suppose it's a rare one-on-one with both pointing at each other...

What I'm saying is; what use is Arjun's "heavy armour" if, in case an enemy manages to land a SINGLE shot on Arjun's front, it has >50% chance of hitting where it will penetrate through at even longer ranges?

So, why not put the desi "early warning aka soft kill" & hard kill systems on a machine that actually have proper armour layout?
Like our vanilla T-90s for now... & NGMBT when it's ready?

Anyways, it's the least important point! Read my post #1891. It has several other points as well.

 

[Pandeyji]

Yes, Arjun is better, but T-90 still holds some key advantages like ammo penetration & fewer weak spots in front armour. Cross-country speed is also similar in both...

we upgraded the T72 giving it better ERA coverage than the Russian ones. Why? Because we were using them in large numbers. Similarly, if we use the Arjun in large numbers we would be able to work out the issues, in the same way we gave NV capabilities to T90

 

[Bleh]

we upgraded the T72 giving it better ERA coverage than the Russian ones. Why? Because we were using them in large numbers. Similarly, if we use the Arjun in large numbers we would be able to work out the issues, in the same way we gave NV capabilities to T90

Fair enough... The ammo would definitely be upgraded & the engine changed!

But the holes in frontal armour layout remains a concern. Let's wait & see what kind of design changes have been going on...
Shouldn't comment until we get to see the redesigned Arjun Mark ii.

Still... If the NGMBT successfully turns out a ±50tonne tank, with so much experience gained in Arjun's weight reduction, much of the investments for making India's logistic chain capable of operating 60+tonne Arjun's could be ill-spent...
If NGMBT gets induction ready before 2030, that will be where Arjun ends & future starts!

 

[Pandeyji]

if the NGMBT successfully ±50tonnes,

Ever heard the story of the jinn who was made permanently busy trying to straighten a dog's tale?
That is the relationship between Army & DRDO. Rest assured, if DRDO succeeds in doing that, army would suddenly develop love for 60+ tonne heavy tanks

 

[Kshithij]

we upgraded the T72 giving it better ERA coverage than the Russian ones. Why? Because we were using them in large numbers. Similarly, if we use the Arjun in large numbers we would be able to work out the issues, in the same way we gave NV capabilities to T90

Why do we need Arjun tank when T90 is made in India? T90 is a Russian tank only in name. The manufacturing is done in India