Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

Chinmoy

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Ok then, so now please tell me of one other ammo type (except the HESH which has become pretty much useless these days against any and all types of military structures) that rifled guns can fire which the smooth barrel ones can not.
You tell me one ammo which rifled guns can't fire which only smooth bore guns can do.

Mind you, Arjun also did fired LAHAT missile from the same rifled gun.
 

Blood+

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You tell me one ammo which rifled guns can't fire which only smooth bore guns can do.
Why should I when I never claimed any such things??Are you thick in your head, kiddo??Or are you just trying to get out of this shit you have thrown yourself into??I just said that smooth barrel guns handle APFSDS (and HEAT FS or any fin stabilized ammo type) rounds better than their rifled counter parts and that's it.
Mind you, Arjun also did fired LAHAT missile from the same rifled gun.
So what??I never said it dould not have, did I ever??Oh and by the way, they had to make special modifications to those LAHAT rounds by adding some type of sabot petals with slipper bands and ball bearings fitted into them, in order to keep them from spinning inside the barrel as spin fucks up with shaped charge jet formation!!That's why, rifled guns can never fire full caliber HEAT rounds as they would need to encase those rounds in special sabot petals.And that's why Arjun will never be able to fire a 120mm version of LAHAT from its present rifled gun!!
 

Chinmoy

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Why should I when I never claimed any such things??Are you thick in your head, kiddo??Or are you just trying to get out of this shit you have thrown yourself into??I just said that smooth barrel guns handle APFSDS (and HEAT FS or any fin stabilized ammo type) rounds better than their rifled counter parts and that's it.

So what??I never said it dould not have, did I ever??Oh and by the way, they had to make special modifications to those LAHAT rounds by adding some type of sabot petals with slipper bands and ball bearings fitted into them, in order to keep them from spinning inside the barrel as spin fucks up with shaped charge jet formation!!That's why, rifled guns can never fire full caliber HEAT rounds as they would need to encase those rounds in special sabot petals.And that's why Arjun will never be able to fire a 120mm version of LAHAT from its present rifled gun!!
Neither I am saying that IA had done the best thing by retaining the Rifled Gun Kiddo...........

I have only presented one of the many reason which must have compelled the user to retain the rifled gun instead of going for a smooth bore one. Making a rifled gun is much more labour intensive job then a smooth bored once. Developers would have jumped at the opportunity.

Moreover we don't even know how much spin it does impart on the projectiles. A low spin rifled gun on other hand is much more accurate for both APFSDS and HE round. World has moved over to smooth bore for the basic reason that normal tank ammo loose their effectiveness after 2000 mtr. For longer targeting, missiles needed to be used and those can't be fired over from a rifled barrel. The afore mentioned APFSDS too came into being because of the same scenario. When it has been found that Kinetic round are ineffective when fired from a smooth bore, they did designed round with fins to provide spin for more accuracy and effectiveness at longer range.
 

Blood+

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Neither I am saying that IA had done the best thing by retaining the Rifled Gun Kiddo...........
Well, you didn't say it explicitly but certainly did mean it nevertheless.Now now, don't try to back pedal. kiddo.
I have only presented one of the many reason which must have compelled the user to retain the rifled gun instead of going for a smooth bore one.
There isn't really that many reasons, heck I dare say there isn't a single good reason to retain an outdated technology such as a rifled main gun but above all, the 'reason' you posted was pure fantasy and I just pointed that out once again!!Rifled guns are not more accurate while firing fin stabilized ammo, in fact, spinning a thin long rod at such high rpms is never a good idea for its own structural integrity as it may cause the rod to twist and bend/break apart along its longitudinal axis!!That's why you can not use regular APFSDS rounds in a rifled gun as you would need to add proper modifications to the sabot petal in order to keep the round from spinning at all or to minimize it to the lowest rate possible!!

Making a rifled gun is much more labour intensive job then a smooth bored once. Developers would have jumped at the opportunity.
No shit Sherlock!!And not just the barrels themselves but the rounds are also far more complex and expensive to produce and you get nothing of value in return for all those hassles!!Another reason why it was a really bad idea to retain the rifled gun.And if that was not enough, having a rifled gun means you can not use rounds that are readily available off the shelf in case need for a better alternative does come up as those are designed to be fired through smooth barrel guns.And shit doesn't stop here, in fact, we have only begin to scratch the surface when it comes to the problems associated with being stuck with a rifled tank gun.
Moreover we don't even know how much spin it does impart on the projectiles.
We don't need to know simply because for the nth time, fin stabilized rounds do not require spin to stabize themselves!!
A low spin rifled gun on other hand is much more accurate for both APFSDS and HE round.
What a steaming pile of horse dung!!
World has moved over to smooth bore for the basic reason that normal tank ammo loose their effectiveness after 2000 mtr.
More horse shit!!Dude, where the fuck do you manage to bring out this much garbage from, abbe OLX se kharid ke lata hai kya??!!Seriously dude, it had nothing to do with the garbage you just uttered!!
For longer targeting, missiles needed to be used and those can't be fired over from a rifled barrel.
Completely untrue as modern tanks can reliably engage other MBT sized targets out to 4 km with APFSDS rounds owing to their top notch ballistic computers providing the FCS with all the lead and elevation data and also due to the precise gun stabilization.And modern FSAPDS rounds like latest variants of the M 829 series can pierce through over 600 mm RHA at over 3.5 km!!And HEAT warheads are not really that effective against modern composite armor, atleast the ones which are used to protect the frontal turrets and glacis plates of modern MBTs as evidenced from the declassified CIA research papers I have seen online, describing how the M1A1HA's front turret proved to be impenetrable to Hellfire missile's HEAT warhead which could penetrate over 1100mm of RHA and this is the early 90s we are talking about!!And composite armor has come a long way since that time.The same thing repeated itself when the Kornet missiles fired by the Hizbollah could not defeat the front turrent of the Markava MkIVs even though, its armor was no where near as good as what is now found in NATO MBTs.
The afore mentioned APFSDS too came into being because of the same scenario.
Don't you ever get tired of conceiving and then writing so much garbage??!!Really, the amount of ignorance in you simply astonishing!!
When it has been found that Kinetic round are ineffective when fired from a smooth bore, they did designed round with fins to provide spin for more accuracy and effectiveness at longer range.
:facepalm::frusty:
Seriously dude, get a proper education.Fins were added because it was found out that gyroscopic stabilization does not work for projectiles whose L: D ratio is more than 5:1!!Think it like a bay blade and a ball point pen.
You can stabilize the bay-blade by spinning it with its launcher, their by imparting gyroscopic stabilization to it.But can you do the same with a ball point pen??No, you can not, because its L: D ratio is too much for gyroscopic stabilization to be effective.The same reason why spinning a kinetic energy penetrator would never work, because to stabilize such a long and thin rod (theoretically), you would need to spin it to such extreme rpm, it would simply be impossible to achieve with rifling as such tight rifling twist would be impossible to carve inside the barrel of a gun!!
And that's why they needed to add fins on those rods and not because anything else, lease so what you are trying convey here.

It's okay to not know something, no one can know everything but please for the sake of the graboids (yeah it's kinda silly but I love them), don't try to hide your ignorance by spreading such baseless pseudoscientific factoids!!Because others mind pick them up and draw the wrong lessons from your write ups!!Don't do that.Learn to accept and own up your shortcomings and improve yourself.

PS - I got the L: D ratio wrong, I just looked it up, it'd be around 7 to 1.
 
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Chinmoy

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Well, you didn't say it explicitly but certainly did mean it nevertheless.Now now, don't try to back pedal. kiddo.

There isn't really that many reasons, heck I dare say there isn't a single good reason to retain an outdated technology such as a rifled main gun but above all, the 'reason' you posted was pure fantasy and I just pointed that out once again!!Rifled guns are not more accurate while firing fin stabilized ammo, in fact, spinning a thin long rod at such high rpms is never a good idea for its own structural integrity as it may cause the rod to twist and bend/break apart along its longitudinal axis!!That's why you can not use regular APFSDS rounds in a rifled gun as you would need to add proper modifications to the sabot petal in order to keep the round from spinning at all or to minimize it to the lowest rate possible!!


No shit Sherlock!!And not just the barrels themselves but the rounds are also far more complex and expensive to produce and you get nothing of value in return for all those hassles!!Another reason why it was a really bad idea to retain the rifled gun.And if that was not enough, having a rifled gun means you can not use rounds that are readily available off the shelf in case need for a better alternative does come up as those are designed to be fired through smooth barrel guns.And shit doesn't stop here, in fact, we have only begin to scratch the surface when it comes to the problems associated with being stuck with a rifled tank gun.

We don't need to know simply because for the nth time, fin stabilized rounds do not require spin to stabize themselves!!

What a steaming pile of horse dung!!

More horse shit!!Dude, where the fuck do you manage to bring out this much garbage from, abbe OLX se kharid ke lata hai kya??!!Seriously dude, it had nothing to do with the garbage you just uttered!!

Completely untrue as modern tanks can reliably engage other MBT sized targets out to 4 km with APFSDS rounds owing to their top notch ballistic computers providing the FCS with all the lead and elevation data and also due to the precise gun stabilization.And modern FSAPDS rounds like latest variants of the M 829 series can pierce through over 600 mm RHA at over 3.5 km!!And HEAT warheads are not really that effective against modern composite armor, atleast the ones which are used to protect the frontal turrets and glacis plates of modern MBTs as evidenced from the declassified CIA research papers I have seen online, describing how the M1A1HA's front turret proved to be impenetrable to Hellfire missile's HEAT warhead which could penetrate over 1100mm of RHA and this is the early 90s we are talking about!!And composite armor has come a long way since that time.The same thing repeated itself when the Kornet missiles fired by the Hizbollah could not defeat the front turrent of the Markava MkIVs even though, its armor was no where near as good as what is now found in NATO MBTs.

Don't you ever get tired of conceiving and then writing so much garbage??!!Really, the amount of ignorance in you simply astonishing!!

:facepalm::frusty:
Seriously dude, get a proper education.Fins were added because it was found out that gyroscopic stabilization does not work for projectiles whose L: D ratio is more than 5:1!!Think it like a bay blade and a ball point pen.
You can stabilize the bay-blade by spinning it with its launcher, their by imparting gyroscopic stabilization to it.But can you do the same with a ball point pen??No, you can not, because its L: D ratio is too much for gyroscopic stabilization to be effective.The same reason why spinning a kinetic energy penetrator would never work, because to stabilize such a long and thin rod (theoretically), you would need to spin it to such extreme rpm, it would simply be impossible to achieve with rifling as such tight rifling twist would be impossible to carve inside the barrel of a gun!!
And that's why they needed to add fins on those rods and not because anything else, lease so what you are trying convey here.

It's okay to not know something, no one can know everything but please for the sake of the graboids (yeah it's kinda silly but I love them), don't try to hide your ignorance by spreading such baseless pseudoscientific factoids!!Because others mind pick them up and draw the wrong lessons from your write ups!!Don't do that.Learn to accept and own up your shortcomings and improve yourself.
:facepalm:... If I am talking horse shit, your post is nothing less then a mule shit I would say.

Go and do some proper study and change your perspective about others.

My very first comment was

One main reason might be its accuracy at longer range in comparison to smooth bore gun.
I never quoted you in the first place. Never asked you to jump up and down with your steaming pile of mule shit. Nowhere In this comment I implied that IA had done the best by retaining it. Its your perspective which you are talking off by saying that I meant something like that.

Read this

Even smooth-bore fired APFSDS projectiles incorporate fins that are slightly canted to provide some spin rate during flight; and very low twist rifled barrels have also been developed for the express purpose of firing APFSDS ammunition. Another reason for the use of smoothbore, and very low twist rate guns is that the most effective precision shaped charge designs, HEAT munitions, lose armor penetrating performance when rotating too fast.
This is the very reason why I said that we don't know how much spin it imparts on the projectile.

M829 could pierce a 600 mm RHA at 3500 mtrs.......... hmmm. Seems OLX pe afghan weed bhi milne lagi hain.

M829 Effective range 3000 mtrs. Capable of penetrating 540 mm RHA at 2000 mtrs
M829A1 Effective range 3000 mtrs. Capable of penetrating 570 mm at 2000 mtrs.
M829A2 Effective range 3000 mtrs. Capable of penetrating 730 mm armour at 2000 mtrs. This is the current APFSDS round in use by Abrams M1A1 and M1A2.

Now just compare how it would fare at your 3.5 km range against a modern day MBT armour.

Fins are incorporated on an APFSDS round to impart spin for stability at a long range.

Stop smoking weed to understand what others are saying. It would also help you to have a neutral perspective of other members. You would stop getting weird ideas about others then.
 

Vinod DX9

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Ok playing

By the way
PicsArt_01-30-09.49.27.jpg

Members, do you think should Arjun Mk II get slopped armour in front too in style of Leo2A5/6?
20180130215714.jpg

It will add protection level ....
 

Blood+

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View attachment 22919
Relax...gun mantlet will be covered
May be.
And gunner's view weakness.... That's a common prob of Leo platform
Only until the A4 variant, later marks do not have that, not to that extent.And in Arjun's case, it's even worse, since the armor module behind the GMS doesn't extend back into the turret compartment, unlike Leo 2A4.And just because the Leo has a particular vulnerability, doesn't mean Arjun would need to retain it.
 

Trololo

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Does the Mk2 Arjun have a Barrel Bend Detector? If yes, where is the sensor for the same?
 

Blood+

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:facepalm:... If I am talking horse shit, your post is nothing less then a mule shit I would say.

Go and do some proper study and change your perspective about others.
I like how you just issue blanket statements without giving any explanations, unlike I.Everytime I make a certain assertion, I try to explain the reasons behind them to the best of my abilities, like whenever I say things like 'horse shit' or 'bullcrap', I always take the time to explain myself.But I do not see that in you.It seems that all you are interested in is just winning the argument anyway you can and given the 'likes' leads me to think that you are not the only one like that here in this forum.Judging by the trend, you will definitely get more takers here though.It almost feels like people around here are not at all interested in learning the facts or taking an honest criticism against what they hold very passionately dear to their bosoms, as if that would do this nation any good.But moving on....

My very first comment was -

"One main reason might be its accuracy at longer range in comparison to smooth bore gun."

Which is complete nonsense simply because fin stabilized ammo types do not rely on spin for attaining stability and in any case, spin negatively affects their armor piercing abilities (both Kinetic energy and HEAT FS rounds), so your argument doesn't hold any truth to it, plain and simple.Moving on........


I never quoted you in the first place.

So effing what??
Never asked you to
Hahahahahahaha!!How much I like you entitled stuck up little pricks!!Dude, who the hell you think you are, the fucking president of the US of fuckking A??!!What makes you think that your asking or not asking will have even a slightest bit of bearing on my decisions or that of anyone else around here??!!What makes so eligible for such special privileges, may I ask??Lolzz "I didn't ask", as if anyone gives a flying fuckk!! :D :D
jump up and down with your steaming pile of mule shit.
Kid, I don't know which dump you crawled out of, but where I'm from, we do not jump up and down with any type of shit, at least not while people are sober!!In fact, I don't think people anywhere jumps up and down with shit in their palms.May be it's what goes for the favorite pass time in your sad little dump, I don't know. :D :D
Seriously, do not use figure of speech if you don't know how to use them, they just make you look silly as fuckk when you do so.


Nowhere In this comment I implied that IA had done the best by retaining it. Its your perspective which you are talking off by saying that I meant something like that.
And what am I stand to gain by doing that??It's not like I'm working on a commission here, is that what you think??The thing is m8, you claimed something which to me, sounded completely outlandish, which I pointed out to you with a proper explanation, nothing more and nothing less.

Read this
ven smooth-bore fired APFSDS projectiles incorporate fins that are slightly canted to provide some spin rate during flight;

And such is being done with arrows since millenniums, so what's the point you are trying to raize here?
and very low twist rifled barrels have also been developed for the express purpose of firing APFSDS ammunition. Another reason for the use of smoothbore, and very low twist rate guns is that the most effective precision shaped chargedesigns, HEAT munitions, lose armor penetrating performance when rotating too fast."
Ahhh....now I get it, so you have been talking about those experimental gun designs, which by the way, never saw the day of light, simply because the developers could see the futility in them and the works had been discontinued not long after, as the same effects could be achieved with smooth bore guns far more efficiently and cost effectively as well!!So why are you even bothering to dig this useless piece of info up like an effing grave robber??!!
Wait, are you trying to extrapolate this to Arjun, in order to justify your earlier claim??You really believe the case to be as such when plenty of evidence to the contrary already exist for everyone and their grandmas to take note of??!!
Dude, apply some common sense.Al right alright, I'll break it down to you why your little hypothesis is completely ludicrous.
Reason no1 1 - The main reason why the Army chose to retain a rifled gun was because of its experience with HESH shells during the previous two conflicts and hence they wanted their new tank to retain this ability (not going into the details as to they were right or not, they were not right by any means by the way).But it will be completely impossible to fire the HESH round through such a low twist rate rifled barrel!!
Reason no. 2 - The very fact that they need to use slipper bands around the APFSDS rounds in use with Arjun MBT and also that they had to modeify the LAHAT rounds in a similar manner makes it amply clear to anyone that Arjun is in fact using a conventional high twist rate rifled gun, anyone with a little bit of common sense and eye for details would have figured it out without any trouble.But seems like common sense is not really that common around this part of the globe.

This is the very reason why I said that we don't know how much spin it imparts on the projectile.
No my friend, you said it because you were desperate to win the argument, and the logic could simply go fuckk itself.
M829 could pierce a 600 mm RHA at 3500 mtrs.......... hmmm. Seems OLX pe afghan weed bhi milne lagi hain.
Not sure about that, but what I'm sure about though, is that you sir, are in a desperate need of a proper reeducation ASAP!!I said the recent block of M829, not the earlier ones, go take another look if you can read, which at this point, I seriously doubt you can.
M829 Effective range 3000 mtrs. Capable of penetrating 540 mm RHA at 2000 mtrs
M829A1 Effective range 3000 mtrs. Capable of penetrating 570 mm at 2000 mtrs.
M829A2 Effective range 3000 mtrs. Capable of penetrating 730 mm armour at 2000 mtrs. This is the current APFSDS round in use by Abrams M1A1 and M1A2.
These values are mere estimates, you do realize that, don't you??So I wouldn't be acting so high and mighty based on such 'educated guess' provided by people who had never been involved with the development or testing process of those munitions!!
And even if we are to take the numbers on their face value, it would still not invalidate my earlier claims as the M829A2 does around 800mm at point plank, which drops to around 750-730 at 2 km, so a 600+ mm at 3.5 km wouldn't be very unreasonable a figure, especially since the A2 variant has a significantly longer rod length (~800 mm from tip to tip), which gives it a very high sectional density, which in turn allows it to retain a high level of kinetic energy over a longer distance compared to other APFSDS rounds.


Now just compare how it would fare at your 3.5 km range against a modern day MBT armour.
No worse than a 120mm HEATFS warhead, rest assured.
Fins are incorporated on an APFSDS round to impart spin for stability at a long range.
At any range!!
Stop smoking weed to understand what others are saying.
Or may be, just MAY BE, you should try to get your points across in a bit clearer terms from now on??
It would also help you to have a neutral perspective of other members.
I'm as neutral as Switzerland, rest assured.
You would stop getting weird ideas about others then.
My ideas are almost always quite spot on, thank you very much.

PS - Seems like our dear DFI can not take even a little bit of swearing.Seriously guys, we are all grown ups here, so stop being so uppity about this, alright??
 

Vorschlaghammer

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On the topic of rifled vs smoothbore main guns, one can't really make a standalone statement unless all factors and variables are taken into consideration. Taken piecemeal, facts pose differing stances.

Rifled barrel makes projectiles more accurate than a smoothbore gun, but as the length to diameter ratio of the projectile increases, the stability decreases and after a point becomes negative.

Crosswinds pushing on a flat fin surface exert more deflecting force than it does via magnus effect onto a spinning cylinder, thus affecting accuracy more.

Rifled barrels limit chamber pressure, hence muzzle velocity. Reduced velocity projectiles have lesser penetration. Royal Ordnance L30 muzzle velocity is around 1500m/s where Rhinemetall L/55 120mm muzzle velocity is around 1800m/s

History's longest recorded tank kill was done by a Challenger 2 with a Fin round through it's L30, at almost 5km distance.

There are very few manufacturers making Rifled gun rounds, limiting user choice.

Smoothbore HEAT and HE-FRAG rounds have worse accuracy than rifled ones. Effect on target for HEAT is reduced cause the spin disperses the jet laterally.

HESH rounds are effective against concrete and RHA, and perform best when spun, but it's completely defeated when used against spaced armor.

Fire control computers can provide more precise and fast firing solutions for rifled guns cause the variable environmental factors affecting accuracy have lesser degree of effect on the projectile.



Ultimately it all comes down to established doctrine and the user requirement. All other factors being neutral, if I am asked to choose a gun for the IA tank regiments meant to face enemy armor, I'd choose smoothbore L/55 cause OFB can't make effective AP ammo and there are a variety of it available in the international arms bazaar, both white and black. On the other hand if I am asked to choose a gun for a light to medium weight AFV, meant primarily for infantry support and blasting fortifications, I'd choose a rifled gun cause FRAG and HESH ammo shoots better out of it and the effect on target are excellent. Just goes to show it's not all cut and dried.
 

Shaitan

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Ok playing

By the way View attachment 22913
Members, do you think should Arjun Mk II get slopped armour in front too in style of Leo2A5/6?View attachment 22914
It will add protection level ....

Well, that's the optimal design, much of the frontal turret isnt up armored, there's no ERA on top, either. But it's already too heavy for IA. In the middle of trials IA have asked for further weight lose, so even more armor is impossible.
 

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