Are Indians asian or Middle-Eastern ? Or both ?

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Tronic

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Wht do u mean . . .People dont care about ethnicity here . . .

How is Indian not a Ethnic Identity ?

If People from Turkey are Turks
People from Arabia are Arabs
People from Caucasus are Caucasian

How come People From Indian Subcontinent not Indian ??

Indian is a completely Valid Ethnic Denotation
People in Turkey are not all Turks; there are Kurds, Pomaks, Laz, Hamshenis, etc, who are also ethnic groups of Turkey, but they are not Turks.

There is no such thing as "Arabia" except in children's fairy tales, unless you meant "Saudi Arabia", but than, they are not a nation based on ethnicity (otherwise, they'd be a lot bigger).

"Indian" is not an ethnic group, but that should not matter.
 

Zarvin

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People in Turkey are not all Turks; there are Kurds, Pomaks, Laz, Hamshenis, etc, who are also ethnic groups of Turkey, but they are not Turks.

There is no such thing as "Arabia" except in children's fairy tales, unless you meant "Saudi Arabia", but than, they are not a nation based on ethnicity (otherwise, they'd be a lot bigger).

"Indian" is not an ethnic group, but that should not matter.
Saudi Arabians have tolled me that Arab is used in the same way an American would use the word "American" in their country.

A Russian, French, Nigerian, Pakistani and someone whose has lived there for centuries will all refer to themselves as "Us Arabs".
 

Tronic

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A Russian, French, Nigerian, Pakistani and someone whose has lived there for centuries will all refer to themselves as "Us Arabs".
Probably only Pakistanis refer themselves as Arab, not Russians, French or Nigerians. And the Arabs don't consider Pakistanis to be Arabs, lool! I know many Pakistanis from middle east, even my ex-girlfriend was from Abu Dhabi, so I know how Pakistanis are treated! You are segregated from the ethnic Arabs.
 

Zarvin

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Probably only Pakistanis refer themselves as Arab, not Russians, French or Nigerians. And the Arabs don't consider Pakistanis to be Arabs, lool! I know many Pakistanis from middle east, even my ex-girlfriend was from Abu Dhabi, so I know how Pakistanis are treated! You are segregated from the ethnic Arabs.
Hi, I can assure you he said all of them. But you are free to believe what you like.
 

Bushra Aziz

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People living in present day India are Indians. One should feel proud of one's identity. No doubt, the Indian subcontinent is a vast term itself and houses a number of nations. Once Australia was also part of India. Pakistan was also in Indian subcontinent, where Muslims, Hindus and other communities lived peacefully since centuries. But then came foreign intruders in the guise British traders who introduced notorious concept of democracy. Pakistan refused to compromise on their separate identity. Today, history is repeating itself... Indians are not Middle Eastern, which is mere a political term introduced to divide the nations living in that part from centuries.
 

peacecracker

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Known_Unknown

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..........But then came foreign intruders in the guise British traders who introduced notorious concept of democracy. Pakistan refused to compromise on their separate identity..........
No wonder your nation has always been under the jackboot of the army. :rolleyes:
 

Bushra Aziz

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Pakistanis will identify as "sindhi,balochi,pashtun,punjabi,seraiki,pothwa ri etc etc" by race or as a group.

in India, it is not so. it is too complex and people generally identify ourselves as Indians or by States. beyond that, the "tribe"(jatt,gujar..) concept like in punjab or kashmir is not seen in most of India or given any importance.
There is ideology of Pakistan, which united all the Pakistan into one nation. No one is Sindhi, Pathan, Punjabi, Balochi, Kashmiri or others. The Muslims and Hindus of Punjab and other provinces are Pakistanis but Muslims of Indian Punjab are not Pakistani nor Punjabui from Pakistani point of view.
Before the intrusion of British whole India was one but under the democracy an attempt was made to eliminate religious, political, sectarian barriers to become one nation but that was not possible as rule of majority means suppression of minority.

No wonder your nation has always been under the jackboot of the army.
India also claims to be Muslim state because of more Muslims in India than Pakistan but you yourself are referring Pakistanis as different nation. This is what I was trying to explain you. Unfortunately, some of our nationals have not accepted each other and are creating problems for each other. The westerners are leaving no stone to disintegrate both the countries. Because of the same reason, sometimes Pakistani Army is to control the conspiracies. Ideally that should not have not been the case. We must try to end the suspicion and mistrust and feel proud of our genuine identities rather than political division.
 

Known_Unknown

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India also claims to be Muslim state because of more Muslims in India than Pakistan but you yourself are referring Pakistanis as different nation. This is what I was trying to explain you. Unfortunately, some of our nationals have not accepted each other and are creating problems for each other. The westerners are leaving no stone to disintegrate both the countries. Because of the same reason, sometimes Pakistani Army is to control the conspiracies. Ideally that should not have not been the case. We must try to end the suspicion and mistrust and feel proud of our genuine identities rather than political division.
What does India having a larger Muslim population than Pakistan have to do with Pakistan's status as a nation-state?? Unlike what you imply, no one subscribes to the notion of Muslims being a separate nation on to themselves in India. "Muslim" is a religious identity, not a national identity.

That's where the disconnect is between Indians and Pakistanis. Indian muslims were and are merely Indians that converted to Islam. Their faith changed, but their identity did not automatically become Arab or Turk, it remained Indian. If they really wanted a separate nation for themselves, they could have left India and created a nation on Antarctica or the Moon. But Jinnah and his followers were parasites, they were a virus, which not only wanted to assert their separate identity, but they wanted to break the country apart to achieve their separate nation.

This is where Pakis and Indians disagree and this is the fundamental cause of the conflict between the two nations. It is not Kashmir, water, Siachen or anything else. It is the fanatic ideology of Jinnah that caused the breakup of the country and created a monstrous nation whose national ideology is inherently anti-India. If Indian Muslims prosper, Paki ideology suffers a defeat because it undermines the very raison-d'être of Pakistan's existence. Hence the Paki establishment, your army, media, mullahs and government will try everything in their power to prolong and create conflict with India to justify your existence as a separate nation.

Stop blaming the "west" for all your problems. The root of the problem is the existence of Pakistan itself, and the virulent anti-India, jihadi ideology that it espouses.
 
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The Messiah

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What does India having a larger Muslim population than Pakistan have to do with Pakistan's status as a nation-state?? Unlike what you imply, no one subscribes to the notion of Muslims being a separate nation on to themselves in India. "Muslim" is a religious identity, not a national identity.

That's where the disconnect is between Indians and Pakistanis. Indian muslims were and are merely Indians that converted to Islam. Their faith changed, but their identity did not automatically become Arab or Turk, it remained Indian. If they really wanted a separate nation for themselves, they could have left India and created a nation on Antarctica or the Moon. But Jinnah and his followers were parasites, they were a virus, which not only wanted to assert their separate identity, but they wanted to break the country apart to achieve their separate nation.

This is where Pakis and Indians disagree and this is the fundamental cause of the conflict between the two nations. It is not Kashmir, water, Siachen or anything else. It is the fanatic ideology of Jinnah that caused the breakup of the country and created a monstrous nation whose national ideology is inherently anti-India. If Indian Muslims prosper, Paki ideology suffers a defeat because it undermines the very raison-d'être of Pakistan's existence. Hence the Paki establishment, your army, media, mullahs and government will try everything in their power to prolong and create conflict with India to justify your existence as a separate nation.

Stop blaming the "west" for all your problems. The root of the problem is the existence of Pakistan itself, and the virulent anti-India, jihadi ideology that it espouses.
Excellent post.
 

blank_quest

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one point I would like to draw attention to:--

1. Neither Sindhi nor Arabs etc are a race or class. They are the ethnicity. They are basically "regional ethnic groups" that are divided on "linguistic" and "religious" lines.
2.They can be, by far, more like a stratified "ethnic groups"- "classified on religious and linguistic lines" and not a "class" in itself.

P.S: Did anyone knows the difference between a group and a class?:rolleyes:
 
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Zarvin

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@Zarvin: Pakistanis will identify as "sindhi,balochi,pashtun,punjabi,seraiki,pothwari etc etc" by race or as a group.

in India, it is not so. it is too complex and people generally identify ourselves as Indians or by States. beyond that, the "tribe"(jatt,gujar..) concept like in punjab or kashmir is not seen in most of India or given any importance.

if you are intrigued:
Demographics of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Category:Ethnic groups in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hi yeah, we celebrate our differences, we aren't that insecure in saying we are Pakistani and that's it, Ignoring the fact that we all speak different languages and have different histories.
 

blank_quest

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"language" , "religion" and "history" can't change the "ethnicity" .

"Ethnicity" is all about "regional acclimatization" of "physical attributes" of humans having "common niche and ancestry".That gives the ethnicity its color not the "religions" or "linguistic" subscriptions.


p.s: I am finding that A few people are just arguing uselessly without any basic clarity of what are we actually talking about!
 
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Bushra Aziz

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Very nice. But please don't get sentimental. Let us discuss it out. In fact we are ignorant of our history. By the way you will agree that our past history is the same. Muslims were the rulers of India since centuries. I hope you will agree that the king at Delhi was always a Muslim before the intrusion of British imperialists (at least last many centuries). In such a case what do you think Muslims had the golden opportunity to take back their power and start ruling once British leaves India... Why they opted for a separate country comprising of geographical contiguous units demarcated with necessary territorial readjustments so that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in majority should form Pakistan. It is a long story but I will quote the Presidential Address delivered at the fifth annual session of the All-India Muslim Students' Federation, Nagpur on 26 December 1941, in which Quaid-e-Azam said, "What is the Hindu Mahasabha doing? Its ambition is to militarize and industrialize the Hindus, urge the Hindus to join the Army, the Navy, the Air Force and support the war.

Militarize what? Industrialize what? the Hindu nation? I ask Mr. Savarkar and Field-Marshal Moonje: Do you think that everyone in this country is a fool? Do you think you can fool the British? Why this sort of talk and why this lip-loyalty of co-operation with an ulterior motive of filling the ranks of the Army, the Navy and the Air Force by Hindus? And then what will they do? The answer is clear, then they say, 'Pakistan will evaporate into the air, and the British will go back to London town and settle down there,' Don't you think that these gentlemen who talk like this should be locked up somewhere? My young friends, the Hindu Mahasabha is dreaming.

Dreaming of what? They do not make any secret of it. Why is it that they are against Pakistan? Why? Our proposal of Pakistan is not inimical to them if they honestly and dispassionately examine it. The Muslim says: Give me those parts of India where we are in a majority and where I have got my homeland. Let me live there under my own rule and I undertake to protect the non Muslim minority. You live in the Hindu India proper and you can protect the Muslim minority.

You have three-fourths. But they do not want three-fourths; they want the whole. How are they going to get the whole? What is Mr. Savarkar's scheme? His scheme is that when he gets 75 per cent of the Hindus in the Army, in the Navy and the Air Force and in the administration-and by that time I think Field-Marshal Moonje will see to it that every Hindu eats meat-he will then see that Hindu Raj is established! What is to happen to those Muslims who are in the north-west and north-east? What will happen to those frontiers? It is this.

The frontiers will be occupied by the Hindu garrison just as the British garrison is occupying the north-west. Instead of the British it will be Hindu garrison, entirely composed of Hindus, who will see and make it their business to see that the Muslims in those parts are not allowed to raise their heads. They will establish a central government and that central government will have supreme control over the entire subcontinent."

I wish the British Imperialist were thrown out from India on the very beginning of their intrusion but they were able to sow the seeds of mistrust and suspicion between communities. Under the democratic norms, there will always be a strong centre with limited powers to the provinces or states. Under such conditions many communities have feeling of aloofness even though they have representation in the assemblies and other bodies.
 

The Messiah

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From that speech it is evident that jinnah himself was wrong and its been proved by the fact of history.
 

civfanatic

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^^ Your Quaid-e-Azam was nothing more than a scheming opportunist. "Hindus" have never mobilized themselves in history and the concept of a "Hindu Raj" is just a wet dream that never existed nor will it ever exist. India has always been a diverse multi-ethnic, multi-religious land; it is not in the Indian nature to persecute or oppress others.
 

blank_quest

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my first point is ----History is of many types!

What history are we talking of
1. Social History.
2. Religious History
3. Political History
4. Physical History.
5. Economic History
and so on!!

N.B.: "Ethnic mix" is the thing we should really talk about and not of single "Ethnicity"! No one has even remained a pure ethnic group as of now!
 
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Cliff@sea

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The Muslim says: Give me those parts of India where we are in a majority and where I have got my homeland. Let me live there under my own rule and I undertake to protect the non Muslim minority. You live in the Hindu India proper and you can protect the Muslim minority.
.
He(The Muslim) surely did a nice job of keeping his side of the bargain . . .
 

Known_Unknown

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Very nice. But please don't get sentimental. Let us discuss it out. In fact we are ignorant of our history. By the way you will agree that our past history is the same. Muslims were the rulers of India since centuries. I hope you will agree that the king at Delhi was always a Muslim before the intrusion of British imperialists (at least last many centuries). In such a case what do you think Muslims had the golden opportunity to take back their power and start ruling once British leaves India... Why they opted for a separate country comprising of geographical contiguous units demarcated with necessary territorial readjustments so that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in majority should form Pakistan. It is a long story but I will quote the Presidential Address delivered at the fifth annual session of the All-India Muslim Students' Federation, Nagpur on 26 December 1941, in which Quaid-e-Azam said, "What is the Hindu Mahasabha doing? Its ambition is to militarize and industrialize the Hindus, urge the Hindus to join the Army, the Navy, the Air Force and support the war.

Militarize what? Industrialize what? the Hindu nation? I ask Mr. Savarkar and Field-Marshal Moonje: Do you think that everyone in this country is a fool? Do you think you can fool the British? Why this sort of talk and why this lip-loyalty of co-operation with an ulterior motive of filling the ranks of the Army, the Navy and the Air Force by Hindus? And then what will they do? The answer is clear, then they say, 'Pakistan will evaporate into the air, and the British will go back to London town and settle down there,' Don't you think that these gentlemen who talk like this should be locked up somewhere? My young friends, the Hindu Mahasabha is dreaming.

Dreaming of what? They do not make any secret of it. Why is it that they are against Pakistan? Why? Our proposal of Pakistan is not inimical to them if they honestly and dispassionately examine it. The Muslim says: Give me those parts of India where we are in a majority and where I have got my homeland. Let me live there under my own rule and I undertake to protect the non Muslim minority. You live in the Hindu India proper and you can protect the Muslim minority.

You have three-fourths. But they do not want three-fourths; they want the whole. How are they going to get the whole? What is Mr. Savarkar's scheme? His scheme is that when he gets 75 per cent of the Hindus in the Army, in the Navy and the Air Force and in the administration-and by that time I think Field-Marshal Moonje will see to it that every Hindu eats meat-he will then see that Hindu Raj is established! What is to happen to those Muslims who are in the north-west and north-east? What will happen to those frontiers? It is this.

The frontiers will be occupied by the Hindu garrison just as the British garrison is occupying the north-west. Instead of the British it will be Hindu garrison, entirely composed of Hindus, who will see and make it their business to see that the Muslims in those parts are not allowed to raise their heads. They will establish a central government and that central government will have supreme control over the entire subcontinent."

I wish the British Imperialist were thrown out from India on the very beginning of their intrusion but they were able to sow the seeds of mistrust and suspicion between communities. Under the democratic norms, there will always be a strong centre with limited powers to the provinces or states. Under such conditions many communities have feeling of aloofness even though they have representation in the assemblies and other bodies.
Jinnah's entire argument is nonsensical. He used it to good effect to inflame passions, but in a country where 35-40% of the population was Muslim, how would it have been able to "fill the army up with Hindus"? Even in today's Indian Army, the highest number of soldiers in proportion to their percentage of India's population are the Sikhs, not Hindus! Sikhs form 2% of the population, yet Sikhs make up 10-15% of jawans and 20% of the officers of the InA.

So Jinnah has already been empirically proven wrong on the first count. Let's look at the 2nd. He asserts:

"The Muslim says: Give me those parts of India where we are in a majority and where I have got my homeland. Let me live there under my own rule and I undertake to protect the non Muslim minority. You live in the Hindu India proper and you can protect the Muslim minority."

At the time of Partition, Pakistan's Hindu population was close to 20%. Even without considering East Pakistan, it was almost 12%. Today it is less than 2%. On the other hand, Indian Muslims have thrived, from 11% or so at partition to over 14% today.

That is the 2nd empirical disproving of Jinnah's hypothesis.

Third, the whole of the "Muslims as a separate nation" theory was sunk in the Bay of Bengal in 1971 when the Bengalis opted to secede from Pakistan. Some Pakis may again claim that 1971 was entirely due to Indian perfidy. Fine, then why did Bangladesh not opt to become East Pakistan again after Mujibur Rehman was assassinated? Because Bengalis don't believe in the "Muslims being a separate nation" theory, because that "theory" is hogwash. It is merely the result of a power hungry politician going to any length to preserve his hold on power.

Jinnah says:

"You have three-fourths. But they do not want three-fourths; they want the whole. How are they going to get the whole? What is Mr. Savarkar's scheme?"

His entire speech is based on bashing a right wing Hindu radical who has no support within India. He was creating a bogeyman which could be used to scare Muslims into accepting him as their saviour and leader. By far the party with the biggest support at the time, nationwide, was the Congress. And I challenge you to show me any speech by any Congress top leader about "filling Hindus" in any institution. Jinnah's argument is like the Paki army claiming an existential existential threat to Pakistan from some little known terrorist hiding in Wazaristan to justify a coup. It is like a Muslim leader in America claiming a threat from some far right pastor in Texas and deciding he want to partition America because of it.

From the above, Jinnah's claims have been empirically proven to be false. The Indian Army is not filled with Hindus. Pakistan also did not protect its minorities as Jinnah promised. Will you Pakistanis now promise to dissolve your failed state and stop hating India? :rolleyes:
 
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