Any Indian Americans On Here?

[argumentum]

I'm new here, so greetings from Silicon Valley! Since the election of Modi, I've become more interested in Indian foreign affairs & geopolitical strategy. CV: I'm a engineer/startup founder and Y-Combinator alum (for those who don't know, YC is a famous startup accelerator in the valley that funds startups from all over the world, including India). So if any of you are thinking about starting a tech company, I'm happy to help w/advice & connections.

Having read some of the threads, I'm a bit disheartened by the perception here (by some at least) of Indian Americans as self-hating sell-outs or insufficiently Indian, and also of the USA as a racist, and inherently anti-Indian nation. Consider threads like the following:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...si-as-an-american-wannabe.66602/#post-1002136
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/what-do-indians-think-about-indians-living-abroad.61980/
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/hindu-americans-rank-top-in-education-income.65637/
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...s-like-russia-or-usa.60215/page-4#post-890778

Most Indian Americans are 100% Indian & 100% American, and see no conflict between the two. We want to support India's rise, partly out of duty (after all many of our parents were educated at Indian universities) but more importantly out of self-interest. The more powerful India is, the more power we would have as a social, political and economic bridge between the 2 states.

Yes, the US has tilted towards Pakistan in the past (when there were very few Indian Americans), and still inexplicably has good relations with Pakistan and Saudi; some of us are working hard to change this, but things take time. You have to understand how US politics works, and then build allies to change policy. But it takes two to tango, and it's not comforting to see that more on here support Russia over the US.

Ultimately America and India are ideological brothers. They are more alike than the US & the UK, and much more alike than the US & Israel. I have no doubt one day US-India relations will be closer than those are now.

Part of the reason I'm here is to learn how to help make that happen!

 

[ezsasa]

Welcome to DFI....

Indian perception on americans will not change unless America goes out of the way to protect india's interests in the region. For example it can start publicly condemning paki terrorist attacks (in J&K) when ever they happen without expecting anything in return.

incase you have no info on the frequency of terror attacks of J&K you can have a look at the
"Indian Counter Terror Operations Pictures"
thread in Indian army section.

 

[prohumanity]

Welcome Argumentum....I am a fellow Indian-American who believes in "Vasudeva Kutumbkam" the great Indian saying. You know that US foreign policy is dominated by raw self interest and maximizing profitability for its corporations. Strength is what US politicians respect. India is getting stronger and therefore, this sudden about turn in favor of India. Otherwise, Paki was the sweet darling of Washington for full 6 decades,sometimes to poke India in the rear. As for gratitude to Russia ....which many many Indians openly express.....has a cultural explanation. Indian civilization is not all about money and materialist longings. Soviet Union empowered India , provided high tech weapons and stood with India in its most troubled times....Indians above the age of 25 years vividly remember this . Indians by nature maintain long term bonds and show respect for old friendships. Russia is an old, time tested friend. In a way, it is a weakness of a sort..that ..for material benefit..Indians can not quickly turn around and start dumping old friends and shamelessly embrace new, profitable friends. US will be closer and closer to India in future..not because India is natural ally...BUT because India now smells of unlimited material gains and profits. Was India not an ideological brother in last 6 decades but US allied with Pakistani dictators and supported them to create and maintain terrorism in Jammu-Kashmir and Punjab ( Khalistan movement) Even today , some Khalistani terrorists are living happily in US and Canada.
India is going to maintain its strategic autonomy...and will not be anyone's puppet just for more material gains.
India will do business with US, EU, Africa, China, Russia, Latin America and everyone else. And, that's how it should be. Enjoy sharing opinions on this amazing,independent forum.

 

[argumentum]

Who said anything about being a puppet? India and America have both been right and wrong in the past, and will be in the future. The important thing is for each country to learn from the mistakes and successes of the other.

India was wrong to tilt towards Socialism, America was wrong to tilt towards Islamism. But neither country was ideologically committed to those causes, they just seemed like the right strategy at the time. What we are both ideologically committed to is personal liberty, political equality, religious pluralism and the rule of law. We should work together to strengthen these ideals in our own countries and around the world.

Further the people of America are fond of India and hate Pakistan (see below). In a democracy, policy will eventually converge with public opinion, it just takes time and some political will..

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1624/perceptions-foreign-countries.aspx

 

[prohumanity]

"The puppet issue" came based of the history of US politicians style of treating so called allies as "poodles" see
Pakistan , philippines etc. India tilted to socialism after Pakistan was in western seato/cento alliance. The foreign policy of US has been totally selfish and not based on idealism as narrated in US constitution. Pitting Pakistan
against India, Taiwan against China, Georgia and Ukraine against Russia, breaking apart a pluralistic nation, Yugoslavia, killing millions of innocent people indirectly by economic sanctions and food embargos.....using dictators against democratic nations....Do you want to count names..Gen ZIa Ul Haq, Gen Hosni Mubarak, Gen. Musarraf, Saudi Royals (monarchy and brutal believes in be-headings etc.), King of Jordan(un elected)...You need a history lesson my friend.....how to US constitutional values and ideals were trampled repeatedly..you will realize. There is reason why US is disliked in most of the world today...due to its crooked rulers.
Yes..I fully agree American people and Indian people have a bond of harmony and respect and I do believe that there are lots of shared ideals. In fact, even American people feel betrayed by US politicians and policy makers as they understand that lots of policies go against the great US constitution. In the name of homeland security, killing citizens privacy, doing unnecessary surveillance of its own citizens and HIDING such unconstitutional acts.
It was Snowden who told us about this...otherwise we would never have known. I love American people..they are great people but unfortunately they are ruled by a lot of low lives and greedy, easily bought selfish politicians.
As for rule of law, isn't it true that almost each day unarmed ,a black teenager is killed by Police and mentally ill people are shot because they get agitated due to their illness and can not afford to see doctors or buy medicines. I am all for US constitution and bill of rights and believe that those who went ahead and did unconstitutional things are truly "unAmerican." I wish US leaders change and follow a foreign policy based on this nation's true values and principles...that's the only way to achieve the lost glory back.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Welcome to the forum argumentum .

 

[argumentum]

Prohumanity, I think you have an incredibly twisted view of American foreign policy history, and world history in general. Every country should look out for its interests first, and every country makes mistakes (including India). I feel you are taking all the bad things in the world and unfairly pinning the responsibility on America.

America was very supportive of Indian independence from Britain, in fact Roosevelt demanded this as a pre-condition to entering WWII on Britain's side. It was also strongly against partition.

http://east_west_dialogue.tripod.com/american_system/id10.html

(Roosevelt) 'I am firmly of the belief that if we are to arrive at a stable peace it must involve the development of backward countries. Backward peoples. How can this be done? It can't be done, obviously, by eighteenth-century methods. Now--'

(Churchill) 'Who's talking eighteenth-century methods?'

(R) 'Whichever of your ministers recommends a policy which takes wealth in raw materials out of a colonial country, but which returns nothing to the people of that country in consideration. Twentieth-century methods involve bringing industry to these colonies. Twentieth-century methods include increasing the wealth of a people by increasing their standard of living, by educating them, by bringing them sanitation--by making sure that they get a return for the raw wealth of their community.'

Around the room, all of us were leaning forward attentively. Hopkins was grinning. Commander Thompson, Churchill's aide, was looking glum and alarmed. The P.M. himself was beginning to look apoplectic.

(C) 'You mentioned India,' he growled.

(R) 'Yes. I can't believe that we can fight a war against fascist slavery, and at the same time not work to free people all over the world from a backward colonial policy.'

(C) 'What about the Philippines?'

(R) 'I'm glad you mentioned them. They get their independence, you know, in 1946. And they've gotten modern sanitation, modern education; their rate of illiteracy has gone steadily down....'

(C) 'There can be no tampering with the Empire's economic agreements.'

(R) 'They're artificial....'

(C) 'They're the foundation of our greatness.'

(R) 'The peace,' said Father firmly, 'cannot include any continued despotism. The structure of the peace demands and will get equality of peoples. Equality of peoples involves the utmost freedom of competitive trade.​

That sounds pretty idealistic to me. But also self-interested. America is successful precisely because its ideals reinforce its self-interests.

India turned to socialism immediately after independence, not in 1955.

I would never claim that America has never made mistakes, or always backed the right people. Especially under Nixon/Kissinger, America was almost a rogue state (when it neglected its ideals in favor of "realpolitik"). But we were engaged in a civilizational struggle against totalitarian communism. 100s of millions were killed by this deranged movement, liberty was being squashed out of the earth. If America didn't stand up against it, there is a very real possibility that we'd all be living in a communist dystopia today.

The US is disliked mainly in muslim countries, because they resent that we are more powerful than them. As Samuel Huntington said, "Islamic Civilization is convinced of the superiority of its culture and obsessed with the inferiority of its power". The US is liked by fellow democracies, every poll confirms this.

 

[prohumanity]

Argumentum, your attempt to white-wash the history is going to be unsuccessful in the light of facts. So, you are saying that British kept India enslaved for 250 years because they were "idealistic" ...really ? Brits had to leave in 1947 because millions of Indians ..under Gandhi..challenged them and they had no choice but to free India..otherwise the movement could have become violent. Brits were thrown out..they did not leave willingly. Until -1950s, US did follow its fundamental values to some extent.
As for strength...in 21st century..it means ability to have mutual respect and harmony with all nations...bullying is no more strength as many nations have very powerful weapons and can cause destruction of the bully. In today's world, rogue mindset does not make many friends but turn billions of fellow humans into enemies. No nation can afford to have billions of enemies. Its not 1944, drop two atom bombs and enslave and control other nations. BTW, now, many nations can respond to Atom bombing with the same ...so no body can win in a war. Its time to learn new skills of friendliness and respect for other cultures/civilizations.....being rogue does not work now. Sooner We ,Americans shed our pathological narcissism and unlimited arrogance...better for us...we can win the hearts of rest of humanity by following true American value of "Liberty and justice for ALL."
Lastly, I am not saying India should not engage and partner with US....All I am saying is that India must not allow any power ability to use her to pit against any other major power. India should be wary of Anglo-spheric powers because of their cunning policy of "divide and conquer" Some in US are very tempted to use India against China or Russia but its not in the interest of India to have all neighbors as enemies because some one else, wants this. Why should India be against Russia, China, Iran ...I see no sense in being against these nations. India will be better off doing business with all neighbors and all other nations.

 

[argumentum]

Where did I say the British were idealistic, it was the Americans who were ideologically opposed to colonialism. The greatest gift of the English to the world was their hypocrisy. They talked plenty about democracy, liberty & human rights, but never lived up to their ideals. This allowed colonies like America and India to challenge them using their own words (it's not me saying this, this is what the independence leaders of the two countries said).

Simple question, how would you have fought fascism and communism?

India should be against Russia, China and Iran because they are totalitarian regimes that violate human rights, practice terrorism etc. Don't foolishly believe they are friends only to be backstabbed, like Nehru did with China.

Iran has conducted terrorism, in India, by attempting to blow up the Israeli ambassador's car (and injuring several Indians). This kind of behavior is unacceptable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_attacks_on_Israeli_diplomats

The leader of Iran declared a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, an Indian novelist, who loved his country of birth and brought it fame. What a shame that India did not challenge this act of war, and in fact enabled it by banning Rushdie's book, and leaving its author to be protected by the British & Americans.

 

[TejasMK3]

ran has conducted terrorism, in India, by attempting to blow up the Israeli ambassador's car (and injuring several Indians). This kind of behavior is unacceptable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_attacks_on_Israeli_diplomats

The U.S is so much better, they only support terrorists like David Headley who kill both Indians and Israelis, 300+ of them.

The U.S continues supports Jamatis in Bangladesh, who are completely anti-India and want to destabilize the area, while pushing through crazy Sunni islamist garbage, these people are basically the leftovers from the 1971 war who were going on rampage during OP "Searchlight", which also BTW had complete support of the U.S too.

The U.S has supported plenty of dictators, when it suits them, and the demonized and killed them when they fall out of line. Learn from where the term banana republic comes from. It's primarily through the U.S support of dictators in South America, who were allowed to whatever they wanted to as long as the supported american companies......."Ideological warfare against a regimes that killed millions"

Before you lecture about Human rights and why we shoudnt be friends with Iran etc, please cut your friendship with Saudis then talk.

The U.S supports secessionist movts, and obstruction of pro development activities through ngos, and in fact is they are the biggest donors to extreme left crackpot orgs over here, through church/ngo funding.

The Afghan elections were faked with the help of the U.S to put a pro Pakistani person like Ghani in power who continues to sign treaties with the ISI to prevent "terrorism" LMAO. So much for free and fair elections, democracies and all that.

Your assessment of U.S policies is very simplistic and one sided.

Watch this, tells you about how geopolitics plays out.



Aligning with one side, is just plain stupid. Nations work where their interests align, the U.S does many things that go against our interest in our region and in fact even harm the very existence of our nation. in fact I dont think people know enough of what the U.S does as the media which has many U.S funded people completely whitewashes a lot of this.

 

[argumentum]

1. David Headley is in maximum security prison for life for his role in the Mumbai attacks (which killed Americans as well), tried and convicted by our justice system. He'll never again breathe free air.

2. US support for islamists in bangladesh is despicable, I agree, Obama has concluded that supporting "moderate" islamists is a compromise he is willing to make. Many in America are appalled by this and are fighting to change the policy. As you can see, it is already much better than last year, when US was considering sanctions against Bangladesh. We are a democracy, like India, and there are various factions and interests who try to influence policy. There are a lot of muslim-brotherhood affiliated groups that have allied with the democratic party.

The point is, in a democracy, we can change the policy. Even in 1971, the US congress revolted against Nixon/Kissinger for supporting Pakistani genocide. Imagine that happening in Iran, China or Russia.

I guarantee you we can make the US as supportive of India's positions as it has been of Israel or UK. It just takes time, look how much better it is since 1999 and there's only now a strong (and growing) India lobby.

 

[TejasMK3]

David Headley is in maximum security prison for life for his role in the Mumbai attacks (which killed Americans as well), tried and convicted by our justice system. He'll never again breathe free air.

I'm sure that completely excuses U.S for supporting terrorism in India, while you continue to bash for Iran supporting terrorism to further their own causes. Basically nations do what they must for their benefits, U.S is no different from Iran. Relations are based off actions not words.

Token protests in your parliament, mean nothing, they are just words, what really matters are your actions. Meanwhile The U.S continued to encourage Iran,China to send Arms to Pakistan, sent a nuclear armed carrier to pressurize us, and even started a U.N resolution that was vetoed by the Soviets.

What goes on internally in your political parties is an American thing, what matters to us is the decisions that are taken and how they affect us. These go completely against even the security of our nation in sensitive areas like the Northwest and the North east. Still giving Pakistan free weapons, still funding crackpot ngos to do dirty work etc.

You havent answered about why you keep very good relations with the Saudis, and do huge business with the Chinese while advising us against Iran and China on the basis of "human rights" and other wish washy stuff

Your argument basically comes down, you should like us unconditionally, and excuse all the bad stuff and follow everything we say. This is the biggest issue.

 

[argumentum]

India too has relations with the Saudis. I personally think any relations with Islamic theocracies (inc. Iran, Pakistan, Saudi at the very least) are suicidal. We should either just conquer them outright and take their oil if we need it, or wipe out all the weapons we sold them in one big strike and close all their bank accounts.

 

[argumentum]

"Your argument basically comes down, you should like us unconditionally, and excuse all the bad stuff and follow everything we say. This is the biggest issue."

That's not my argument at all. My argument is consider the direction and pace of change in US policy vis a vis India from 1970s (the worst) to now. There's a golden opportunity to make things even better, because for once the US and India have broadly same enemies (Islamism and Chinese expansionism).

Basically we should be taking about a fair trade-off, India drops Iran/Russia and US drops Pak/Saudi and favors India over China for a free trade agreement. If we have the balls for it, we can re-colonize the middle east and split its resources between us.

 

[pmaitra]

This is a greeting and welcome thread. For subject matter discussion, please continue in the respective threads, the links of which have been provided in the first post.

OP, welcome to DFI.

 

[sob]

Welcome to DFI @argumentum

this is a very engrossing introduction thread that I have come across. I agree with @pmaitra let us continue this in the respective thread.

 

[SPIEZ]

Hi @argumentum

Welcome to Defense forum India!

 

[sob]

@argumentum there is a thread on India-US relations http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/future-of-indo-us-relationship.26022/page-9

Please continue there, or you can start a new thread in the same section.

 

[Mad Indian]

I don't know where to reply to the OP question on why Indians here have a negative view on Indian Americans as there seems to be no thread for it. If there is, you can quote my posts there or mention me there where we can continue the conversation. But to give the brief answer, read mattster and PredictablyMalicious posts on Indian Americans 's view/work towards India and Indian culture in the thread about how Indian Americans don't do anything for India . If those posts don't answer your question , I will be happy to explain more

 

[Mad Indian]

@argumentum there is a thread on India-US relations http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/future-of-indo-us-relationship.26022/page-9

Please continue there, or you can start a new thread in the same section.

But thats not the same as perception of Indian Americans by average Indians or even Indians on DFI now is it?