Another Proof of Marx's Folly: Cuba

pmaitra

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Because it is only the private sector that has performed well, the public sector is a disaster.
Ok, this one was totally thoughtless comment.

SBI, ONGC, IR, RCF, ICF, CLW, DLW, BHEL, BEML, HAL are all disasters, isn't that what you just said?
 

The Messiah

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I didn't read each post on this thread in detail, that is why I didn't point fingers at anyone - I just made a general statement that we should not go back to the bad old days.

As for your question on 'credit to capitalism'. Name 24 government companies that are doing beautifully well, and have earned India recognition, and deliver world class services.

You will not be able to. I can name many more than 24 private companies which satisfy said criteria.

'Mixed economy' is just a term. What component of that mixed economy is doing well, and which is the laggard?
Mixed economy doesn't only mean govt companies...it also includes rules and regulations. In capitalism market forces decide everything. And if not regulated then it can create a massive mess...you said so yourself.
 

Naren1987

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Well that is what you think.

The reality is that PRC is doing much better than Taiwan. However, are these two countries comparable? One is huge and the other is tine. One has no Us aid while the other has US aid. One has to fend for itself while the other is protected by the US. Hell, even Cuba was doing great when they had Soviet economic aid. Yet, PRC is the big talk in all the economic fora. Can you tell me why?

Let us compare India with countries that are comparable, shall we? Taiwan does not fit the bill.
1.In what sector, aspect of life is it doing better than PRC?, I'm asking you again and again to post the Indices in which PRC is better than Taiwan, if you don't have them, then don't act like some Creationist who denies evolution.
2.Singapore never had US aid, care to explaing why it's doing better.
3.OK, There's no capitalist country to compare with India, but there are two similarly sized countries, historical countries, ok?
East and West Germany, now which was the better economy at the time of German reunification, if you think it was the East, then back it up with statistics, something you are very afraid of.
 

Bangalorean

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Ok, this one was totally thoughtless comment.

SBI, ONGC, IR, RCF, ICF, CLW, DLW, BHEL, BEML, HAL are all disasters, isn't that what you just said?
OK, this is my favourite topic :troll:

IR is a disaster, IMHO. Hot topic of debate, there can be another 20 page thread on this, but frankly, you would be hard pressed to call it world class.

BHEL and BEML are behind the times. Ditto HAL. I mean, HAL? Come on!! Being an 'aspiring superpower', we should aim to compete with Boeing and Lockheed.

Good you didn't say BPCL, HPCL, etc., what with all the adulteration and corruption and licences to goondas, etc. :)

SBI is not a 'disaster', but they sure provide pathetic service. Yet, I have taken my housing loan from one of SBIs associate banks. Which means, government does have its place, but not at the cost of suppressing private enterprise (which is what was happening pre-91).
 

The Messiah

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east germany was occupied by ussr and its blamed on communism yet Indian occupation by britain is blamed on greed.

clearly well being of east germany wasn't on the agenda of ussr...it was a client state.
 

Naren1987

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Ok, this one was totally thoughtless comment.

SBI, ONGC, IR, RCF, ICF, CLW, DLW, BHEL, BEML, HAL are all disasters, isn't that what you just said?
SBI-I opened an account in SBI and I did in HDFC, can't say the SBI experience was a very pleasant one, but yes, we must have national banks, I'll give you that.
HAL IS a disaster, the Tejas has no Indian radar and no Indian engine, the IAF has called it a 3.5++ Generation Aircraft.
Dhruv has only 10 % indigenuous components.
 

Bangalorean

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Mixed economy doesn't only mean govt companies...it also includes rules and regulations. In capitalism market forces decide everything. And if not regulated then it can create a massive mess...you said so yourself.
In pure capitalism there are no regulations. It is free for all.

I hope you knew that ?
You are just playing with semantics now. :lol:

Answer one question: is the US a 'mixed economy' or a 'capitalist economy'?
 

Naren1987

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east germany was occupied by ussr and its blamed on communism yet Indian occupation by britain is blamed on greed.

clearly well being of east germany wasn't on the agenda of ussr...it was a client state.
Germany had no US troops stationed on its soil?
What of North Korea and South Korea?
 

The Messiah

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You are just playing with semantics now. :lol:

Answer one question: is the US a 'mixed economy' or a 'capitalist economy'?
USA is not a capitalistic economy. According to experts from this thread they are a corporate economy.

And it is not semantics. capitalism = no regulations or protectism.
 
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The Messiah

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Germany had no US troops stationed on its soil?
What of North Korea and South Korea?
you think soviet occupation of east germany is on par with usa today having few bases ? :lol:

north korea is not communist it is a corrupt dictatorship. just like usa is a crony capitalist.
 

Bangalorean

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USA is not a capitalistic economy. According to experts from this thread they are a corporate economy.

And it is no semantics. capitalism = no regulations or protectism.
If that is your definition, then no one is supporting "capitalism" on this thread, not even me. :crazy:

When I say capitalism, I mean 'capitalism with government regulators'.

When I say "naked or crony capitalism", I mean capitalism with no regulations or protectionism.

As long as you agree that we should have private investment with minimal government intervention in day-to-day running of the business, and with impartial government regulations, there is no debate here.
 

Galaxy

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Ok, this one was totally thoughtless comment.

SBI, ONGC, IR, RCF, ICF, CLW, DLW, BHEL, BEML, HAL are all disasters, isn't that what you just said?
BHEL, SBI, BEML and ONGC are not disasters. All these companies are growing vertically upward, may be slowly but still OK. No Idea about HAL and other companies as i never seen their balance sheet.
 

The Messiah

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If that is your definition, then no one is supporting "capitalism" on this thread, not even me. :crazy:

When I say capitalism, I mean 'capitalism with government regulators'.

When I say "naked or crony capitalism", I mean capitalism with no regulations or protectionism.

As long as you agree that we should have private investment with minimal government intervention in day-to-day running of the business, and with impartial government regulations, there is no debate here.
You've got it upside down bang!

true capitalism is without any regulations...everything is done solely on the basis of market forces.

and i didn't brand usa as corporate economy, naren did.
 

The Messiah

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As long as you agree that we should have private investment with minimal government intervention in day-to-day running of the business, and with impartial government regulations, there is no debate here.
That is not capitalism.

So why champion it ?
 

Bangalorean

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That is not capitalism.

So why champion it ?
What I outlined needs to be "championed", irrespective of its name. I don't care what it is called. Call it capitalism, crony capitalism, mixed economy, socialist capitalism, chutiyaism, ganduism - anything. But that is what the nation needs. :namaste:
 

The Messiah

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Well, some effective government regulators is needed. GoI can't give free market to anyone. There is inherit risk in long term.
Agree.

That makes us mixed economy. My point is when we are mixed economy and then why sing praises of capitalism only ? Because in true capitalism there is no scope of regulations by govt. Market forces decide everything. Im just saying we should praise mixed economy rather than capitalism which we clearly aren't.
 

The Messiah

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What I outlined needs to be "championed", irrespective of its name. I don't care what it is called. Call it capitalism, crony capitalism, mixed economy, socialist capitalism, chutiyaism, ganduism - anything. But that is what the nation needs. :namaste:
Say the correct term then. ie mixed economy

Mixed economy is an economic system in which both the state and private sector direct the economy, reflecting characteristics of both market economies and planned economies. Most mixed economies can be described as market economies with strong regulatory oversight, in addition to having a variety of government-sponsored aspects
should i start praising islamic economy by stating we are one when we aren't ?
 

Galaxy

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Agree.

That makes us mixed economy. My point is when we are mixed economy and then why sing praises of capitalism only ? Because in true capitalism there is no scope of regulations by govt. Market forces decide everything. Im just saying we should praise mixed economy rather than capitalism which we clearly aren't.
Absolutely.

Mixed economy is best for the country like India. We praise of capitalism because we were never Mixed economy. It's happens in long run. Our economic reform started in early 90's. Today out of 2 trillion $ Mcap, 40% are owned by government and earlier it was 70%. Now, it will remain around 35%-45% for next 1 decade or so. So, We are mixed economy.

Asking for capitalism is like saying I am rightist but actually you will find yourself as centrist. :lol:
 
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