Another Cheap Chinese Copy

[ppgj]

the airframe of mg21 is outdated . so the upgrade of MG21 can not give attention to both BVR capacity and WVR capaity at the same time.

the upgrade of mg21bison pay more attention to BVR capacity ,at the expense of its WVR capaicty . in fact, after carrying BVR missiles, mg21 bison is very clusmsy and lose its manueverability and flight-voyage .

Chinese upgrade of J7 pays more attention to its WVR capacity at the expense of BVR capacity. after upgrade, new J7P has wonderful manuerverability as good as F16,but it still can not fire BVR missle.

SO,Mg21bis and J7 are upgraded according to different upgrading concept . it is a nonsense to tell which is better than the other.

BTW, MG21 is good bird,but it is outdated. however upgraded it is , mg21 can not survive in modern air fight in the front of new birds....
the upgrade of Mg21 is just a compromise to the shortage of the defence budget.

both our mig 21 bis and your J7 carry less fuel and hence have short legs meaning they can't spend too much time in air.also they have 4/5 hard points to carry the missiles.visualising a wvr fight is a dream.if you use them in modern times for a wvr fight they will fall from the sky for want of fuel!!.so what is smart?have bvr capability take your shot and disengage which is what indians have done.

 

[badguy2000]

China will actually find it easy to steal technology from both India and Russia due to our own shortcomings.



It is very hard. And what you say about non-core parts etc etc is impossible without access to source codes or ToT. You simply can't break an engine into pieces and then try to figure out how to put it back together. Impossible.

case is that chinese did it

Yes, and the CFM-56-3 are completely inferior to the Al-31F. So, be happy that you ripped off an inferior engine when you already had a far superior engine in your hands. The Al-31 is ahead compared to CFM-56-3 for what it is made for.

pls, don't expose you ignorance any more..... west engine always wear less oil but has better life-span than SOviet/Russian engines.

CFM56 is civilian engine, so it pay more attention to reliablity and economy indication like oil-wearing indication than rato of T/W

But, CFM56 is based on the core of one yankee's miliatary engine. in fact, the core of F15's engine is as same as the core of CFM56..........is the engine of F15 poorer than AL31 ?


so CFM56 has great potential and can give chinese lots of reference how Yankee's military engine is designed.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Badguy can you name one Chinese weapon copy that is better than the original??

 

[hbogyt]

re

Twice amount of what capacity?

Anyways, you had Al-31s in 1992. Your first WS-10 test was easily after 2005.

First flight of J-10 took place in 1998 WS-10 must have been tested even earlier.

Too many factors involved.



Steam engines. You cannot do that in just a few months.

It doesn't refute the argument of electric trains nor the use of steam-powered trains in the unlikely case of a prolonged war. In fact, it might just take less than a few months to do that. You never know how potent a catalyst a war is.

Yeah! Right! Don't tell me you can buy a different car every other week. The technology exists. But, that does not mean it is affordable.

No I don't, but many people can do so, but had not the need. The mass transit system certainly can.



Every time a war was fought there was either a recession or high inflation. Look back at history for confirmation. Wartime price control and rationing will lead to inflation mate.

Then the onus is on you to prove so. I see no direct connection between them. Wartime price control and rationing dissipates inflation. This is a clear logical link

China has fuel enough for military purposes. But, civilians will be denied a lot of the fuel.

Since when did you start caring about our living standards?.

WoW. What a comeback? Come out with better points or leave the ring.

That was intended as a lighthearted remark.

 

[badguy2000]

CLUMSY ...give me a break, 2.0 mack with BVR capabilities. You know what is 2.0 mack speed in meters/sec.

yes, 2.0 amck with BVR missles ?

PLS check how mg21 can fly 2.0 mack,ok?


guy, with differenct configures of duties,one bird's flight performance can be quite different.

for example, PLA's Su30 MKK therorectically can carry more load and longer flightvoyage than H6. SU30MKK also can fly much faster than H6.

but why PLA still use H6 ,not S30MKK, as bombers/cursing-missle launchers?
it is because SU30 will become short-legged pregnant hens ,when Su30 carry the heavy crusing missles/bombs.

 

[badguy2000]

Badguy can you name one Chinese weapon copy that is better than the original??

J10 vs F16

HQ9 VS S300

T99 VS T72/80/90

of cousre ,as long as you insist that J10,HQ9,T99 be copies.

 

[p2prada]

case is that chinese did it

Assumptions won't get you anywhere. Logic dictates the WS-10 is an exact copy of the Al-31. I doubt even the Americans are capable of simply copying the Al-31 with just the engine and no ToT.

pls, don't expose you ignorance any more..... west engine always wear less oil but has better life-span than SOviet/Russian engines.

ROFL. Mind Boggling.

CFM56 is civilian engine, so it pay more attention to reliablity and economy indication like oil-wearing indication than rato of T/W

The very reason why you cannot convert it to a military engine.

But, CFM56 is based on the core of one yankee's miliatary engine. in fact, the core of F15's engine is as same as the core of CFM56..........is the engine of F15 poorer than AL31 ?

Exactly, why you cannot simply "upgrade" a civilian engine to a military engine without ToT. The F-15's F-110 is superior to the Al-31. The CFM-56 is vastly inferior to the Al-31. Get that part right.

so CFM56 has great potential and can give chinese lots of reference how Yankee's military engine is designed.

Reference is different from copy paste. They don't exactly go hand in hand. The WS-10 is a copy of the Al-31 since you don't have access to any Western engines of the same caliber. If you had access to the F-110 then it would have been more believable. But, not the CFM-56.

 

[badguy2000]

Assumptions won't get you anywhere. Logic dictates the WS-10 is an exact copy of the Al-31. I doubt even the Americans are capable of simply copying the Al-31 with just the engine and no ToT.



ROFL. Mind Boggling.



The very reason why you cannot convert it to a military engine.



Exactly, why you cannot simply "upgrade" a civilian engine to a military engine without ToT. The F-15's F-110 is superior to the Al-31. The CFM-56 is vastly inferior to the Al-31. Get that part right.



Reference is different from copy paste. They don't exactly go hand in hand. The WS-10 is a copy of the Al-31 since you don't have access to any Western engines of the same caliber. If you had access to the F-110 then it would have been more believable. But, not the CFM-56.

ok, I am tired of such debates with you...you can stick whatever you want.....

 

[p2prada]

If the WS-10 is indeed a copy of the CFM-56, then it will be of no significant use on the J-10 or the J-11. A 105KN to 110KN thrust will mean LCA will end up having more power than the J-10/11.

Trust me, saying the WS-10 is a copy of the AL-31 is a significantly a much bigger achievement than a CFM copy.

 

[p2prada]

First flight of J-10 took place in 1998 WS-10 must have been tested even earlier.

No. Shenyang had planned the J-10 with a completely different engine. Called the WP-15 or something. It was later canceled. Then Saturn offered the AL-31 along with the right to manufacture Flankers in China in 1996. The Al-31 has powered the J-10 since then. Not one test has been carried out with the WS-10 on the J-10 after that. All current J-10s will fly in the Al-31 till the next decade.

It doesn't refute the argument of electric trains nor the use of steam-powered trains in the unlikely case of a prolonged war. In fact, it might just take less than a few months to do that. You never know how potent a catalyst a war is.

Oh! Please. You need atleast 6 months to build an engine, steam or electric. War may increase capacity. But, that does not mean China will suddenly start conjuring locomotives from thin air. Be a little more realistic. An Indo-China war will not take years. Less than 6 months is a guarantee. There is very little that can be done in that time to safeguard the economy. China took 2 and a half years to "start" coming out of recession. And will still take another year to post a over 10% growth rate. And this recession is only a small hiccup compared to a war, either over Taiwan, NK or against India or Japan.

If China fights against India, only your economy will get affected slightly. But, if china fights over NK or Taiwan then the USN will cut off every single supply of oil to China with or without help from either India or Australia. You guess how it will affect your economy and military.

No I don't, but many people can do so, but had not the need. The mass transit system certainly can.

You will still have a billion plus people who cannot afford cars. China probably has around 500000 millionaires. So, what do you mean by "many" people.
Mass transit system is quite cute. Your buses will "locomote" without fuel and your subway will run without electricity. Nice.

Britain survived WW2 because of supplies from the US. China will have no such savior. It's mainly because of your "not so strategic" location. There is no Soviet Union to protect you.

Then the onus is on you to prove so. I see no direct connection between them. Wartime price control and rationing dissipates inflation. This is a clear logical link

1921.. Great Depression.
1946.. High Inflation.

Unlike the time before, the world is even more interlinked. The industry always suffers the most and Chinese economy is purely based on the industry.

War time rationing helps when you have supplies coming from the outside. Food is not a problem for China. But, fuel is. The very reason why Hitler lost was because of lack of fuel and raw materials. All other reasons were secondary. Raw materials is not a problem for China, but the former is the biggest problem. China cannot simply decide to invade CAR to protect its fuel supplies.

Since when did you start caring about our living standards?.

Huh! If your living standards get affected, there will be dissent. Dissent will give rise to protests. Protests give way to revolution. Revolution brings about change. What more does your enemy need?

PS: Quote the post rather than typing in Bold letters. It gets difficult to reply to.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

J10 vs F16

HQ9 VS S300

T99 VS T72/80/90

of cousre ,as long as you insist that J10,HQ9,T99 be copies.

These are better than the originals??

 

[hbogyt]

re

No. Shenyang had planned the J-10 with a completely different engine. Called the WP-15 or something. It was later canceled. Then Saturn offered the AL-31 along with the right to manufacture Flankers in China in 1996. The Al-31 has powered the J-10 since then. Not one test has been carried out with the WS-10 on the J-10 after that. All current J-10s will fly in the Al-31 till the next decade.



Oh! Please. You need atleast 6 months to build an engine, steam or electric. War may increase capacity. But, that does not mean China will suddenly start conjuring locomotives from thin air. Be a little more realistic. An Indo-China war will not take years. Less than 6 months is a guarantee. There is very little that can be done in that time to safeguard the economy. China took 2 and a half years to "start" coming out of recession. And will still take another year to post a over 10% growth rate. And this recession is only a small hiccup compared to a war, either over Taiwan, NK or against India or Japan.

If China fights against India, only your economy will get affected slightly. But, if china fights over NK or Taiwan then the USN will cut off every single supply of oil to China with or without help from either India or Australia. You guess how it will affect your economy and military.



You will still have a billion plus people who cannot afford cars. China probably has around 500000 millionaires. So, what do you mean by "many" people.
Mass transit system is quite cute. Your buses will "locomote" without fuel and your subway will run without electricity. Nice.

Britain survived WW2 because of supplies from the US. China will have no such savior. It's mainly because of your "not so strategic" location. There is no Soviet Union to protect you.



1921.. Great Depression.
1946.. High Inflation.

Unlike the time before, the world is even more interlinked. The industry always suffers the most and Chinese economy is purely based on the industry.

War time rationing helps when you have supplies coming from the outside. Food is not a problem for China. But, fuel is. The very reason why Hitler lost was because of lack of fuel and raw materials. All other reasons were secondary. Raw materials is not a problem for China, but the former is the biggest problem. China cannot simply decide to invade CAR to protect its fuel supplies.



Huh! If your living standards get affected, there will be dissent. Dissent will give rise to protests. Protests give way to revolution. Revolution brings about change. What more does your enemy need?

PS: Quote the post rather than typing in Bold letters. It gets difficult to reply to.

That's enough to show you know nothing about Chinese engines. J-10 is a product of Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, not ShengYang. WP-15 cannot be for J-10, as WP stands for TURBOJET engines. WS-10 is not a copy of the American engine, but is based around the core of it.

As I said, you never know how potent a catalyst a war is. The capital is there and the workers are there. I don't see why can't they do overtime.
China already have lots of electric locomotives.

The mainland of Britain is a small piece of land that lack natural resources. In comparison, China itself is rich in them. There is no way you can cut off all our external supplies.

If that many people cannot afford electric cars, then they can't afford petrol or diesel cars. Their lives won't be affected.

The Great Depression and the post-WWII inflation were in fact side-effects of positive economic outcome. They were all the aftermath of economic booms and in the case of the Great Depression, also the lack of regulation.


Food transport will have priority in fuel rationing. Food shortage will be mild at worst. You are arguing as if China will be completely devoid of fuel. China will have fossil fuel because it is a producer of it, because it's unlikely to cut off all the pipelines and sea routes and because of coal to oil conversion. I'm sure Hitler would have managed if the war lasted less than 6 months.

So much for the thesis of starting a war and diverting public attention heh! Chinese people will not revolt.

 

[Vladimir79]

WS-10A is only based on an American core. Everything else in it is indidenously developed. China had WS-10 before it got its hands on Al-31. The earliest prototypes of J-10 all had WS-10.

Sorry, but you are misinformed. The prototypes as well as the current production fleet are powered by the AL-31 turbojet engine.

J-10 (Jian 10) ? Vigorous Dragon Multi-Role Tactical Fighter - Air Force Technology

What radar are the Pakistanis using now? Chinese perhaps. Tell me when they have actually installed those Italian ones. Besides, do you not think that the Italians would have improved the radar for export just as China did for F-7?

SELEX has won the competition for the JF-17 radar. The same company installed their radars on the F-7s.

http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/GRIFO_FAMILY.pdf

 

[Vladimir79]

in fact, Russian didn't give chinese the code of flankers either, but Shenyang aircraft company indeed succeeded in decoding flankers and working out J11B.
it is not a hard task for chinese to decode cfm56.but because cfm56 is a civilian engine, so chinese redesigned the non-core parts when adopting the core of cfm56.


in fact, Yankees did raise protest to chinese after getting to know their CFM56 was scaned by Shenyang aircraft company.

If China had copied CFM56 then they wouldn't need to keep ordering them.

to my funny,now yankees keep silent on ws10 ,but russian jump out to claim that WS10 is the piracy of their intellectur property....

It isn't the engine that is pirated, it is the other 80% of the aerocraft that we gave licensed production for. The WS-10 is a failure.

why cHina still import AL31?
1.
Chinese has some obstacles to mass-produce WS10 .the production of WS10 can not meet the demand of expanding fleet of PLAAF.

2.the reliablity of WS sitll needs proving after ws10 is in service...WS10 is fitted with double-engine J11B instead of single-engine J10.

Mass production isn't the issue, although Shenyang is about as inefficient an aerospace company can be. The real issue is WS-10 is not ready for mass production.

 

[AJSINGH]

the airframe of mg21 is outdated . so the upgrade of MG21 can not give attention to both BVR capacity and WVR capaity at the same time.

the upgrade of mg21bison pay more attention to BVR capacity ,at the expense of its WVR capaicty . in fact, after carrying BVR missiles, mg21 bison is very clusmsy and lose its manueverability and flight-voyage .

Chinese upgrade of J7 pays more attention to its WVR capacity at the expense of BVR capacity. after upgrade, new J7P has wonderful manuerverability as good as F16,but it still can not fire BVR missle.

SO,Mg21bis and J7 are upgraded according to different upgrading concept . it is a nonsense to tell which is better than the other.

BTW, MG21 is good bird,but it is outdated. however upgraded it is , mg21 can not survive in modern air fight in the front of new birds....
the upgrade of Mg21 is just a compromise to the shortage of the defence budget.

ofcourse Mig 21 cant do WVR and BVR combat at the same time .and it is not made to .Accoording to specific a2a mission it will carry BVR or WVR combat .
No doubt that Mig 21 airframe is old but it is still rugged
Mig 21 is being upgraded for the last time in IAF after that we will have the winner of MMRCA competition and then the LCA for point defence
Mig 21Bison is the best variant like or not

 

[AJSINGH]

Ahhh, yes, OOE can tell you more about the discussion on F-7 vs Bison. As far as I know, F-7PG is aerodynamically superior.

You do copy, just in the form of ToT and such. LCA can never be the best in its class, because the rest of that class will not stop and wait for LCA. I gather from what you're saying that IAf just keeps changing the requirement to match technological advances in other countries. Well that's what the Chinese did many years ago. IAf is being a little incooperative, but they are just doing their job. I think the government needs to do some coordination here.

so you are trying to say that Mig21BIS are inferior to F-7 lets see how
Range of F-7-800miles
Range of Mig 21-900miles
Service ceiling of F-7-61700ft
Service ceiling of Mig 21-58400ft
Afterburner thrust of F-7 -14650 lbf
Afterburner thrust of Mig 21-15650 lbf
Max speed of F-7 -2.0 limited
Max speed of Mig 21 bis -2.2

also u should know this
The upgrade consists of Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radar and
RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) beyond visual range missiles and PGMs., new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic
composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS
receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's
URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot,
radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid
air cooling system, HOTAS controls, stores management system, digital air
data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF
radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new
electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an
indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified
version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

That is not all, apart from carrying the deadly AA-11 "Archer" that arms the MiG-29 and longer range AA-10 Alamo BVR AAMs, Bison pilots will have the SURA helmet mounted sight, used by Flanker pilots. Now with this combination, it would mean that the MiG-21, flying faster than all F-16 variants would “schlemm” an F-16 as well as the Luftwaffe MiG-29s did.

 

[AJSINGH]

according to PLAAF's doctrine, J7 won't fight independently. they just play a assistant role when defending airbases.

which ungrade concept is better can be proven only by real wars....
after all ,it is also doubtful whether a clumsy bird with BVR missles like MG21bis can survive in modern air fights.

u have no idea how MIg 21 bis are combat affective ,firstly u wont see Mig 21 bis comming because of its small frame and isralie jamming radar.It only is visible on the radar when it fires it IR homing missile .now if that aircraft is not visible on F-15c asea radar .can u expect to find it on your own J-11 radar

 

[AJSINGH]

both F5 and Mg21 are outdated.

However, F5 has a much bigger nose than mig21 ,so F5 can hold modern radar without much modification while mig21 can not.

F5 also has much bigger airframe than mg21 ,so can hold much more fule and has longer flight-voyage.

F5's maneuverablility was much poorer than mg21 in 1970s. However, it can be improved by the upgrade of engine.

So, F5 has much more upgrade potential than mig21,although F5 is also a outdate platform

which Mig 21 variant are you talking about .there are many variants u know
like the type 77 and type 66

 

[AJSINGH]

Inferior aircraft armed with superior missiles may be able to defeat US aircraft carrying current generation missiles," the Air Force(USAF) said in its briefing paper.

But inferior or not, as a Mach 2 platform for launching BVR AAMs with Active Radar is what makes the MiG-21 a serious threat to almost any modern fighter.

In retrospect, it still is the good old ‘Sabre era MiG’ with modern fire controls, BVR missile with active-radar seeker upgrades that lived on to dogfight F -16s and Mirages. Even during Cope India 2004 in DACT many F -15 pilots did confess and say it were the dozen odd BVR capable IAF MiG-21s buzzing around at Mach 2 that gave them a real hard time. These were the modernized ‘Bison’ versions the IAF flies whose weapons and avionics suits coupled with their Mach 2 speed pose a serious threat to any 4th or 4.5th generation fighter.

 

[Vladimir79]

Excuse me. How did you come to know that "WS-10 takes twice the amount of time to reach full capacity."? Adding what badguy said, clearly WS-10 was tested before Al-31.

It has been mentioned by Chinese officials several times over the years. AL-31 was installed in all the prototypes before WS-10 was first put into a modified Su-27SK. How can you test an airframe before you have a reliable engine?

I rest my case on JF-17 for now. Let us come back to this in a few years time. To my knowledge, the Italian radar is not going to happen.

You rested too soon. Grifo S-7 has already been selected for the radar of JF-17. Read the brochure.