Another Cheap Chinese Copy

p2prada

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budddy,chinese did finished many RE without any TOT.

if there is TOT ,then it is not "RE" .but "license production"
You don't need complete ToT for license manufacturing. And China does not manufacture CFM-56. You source it directly from France or America for civilian purposes. CFM-56 was first delivered to China only in 1985. So, there is no way you can actually RE an engine you have no idea about. It is simply not possible without the source codes. Also, engine technology is very complex. Once you take an engine apart, there is no way you can put it back together again.

The only engine you had access to was the AL-31. Russians did not give you ToT. But, there is a chance you could have stolen it from Russia. There are plenty of technology thieves in Russia. Your engine development may have had support from the Ukrainians too.

guy, to develope a engine always takes decades .
Not if you already have an engine core(Al-31 in 1998). The Kaveri engine can use the M-88 core and be ready in 3 years for testing.

Also, the CFM-56 engines that you have are series 3 engines. They have a thrust of 105KN at the max. There is no way you can make changes to the core to produce a thrust of 126KN as in the WS-10 or AL-31 without ToT.

The WS-10A and Al-31 have been modified to produce a thrust of 132KN from 126KN, coincidence. The first J-11 flight with the WS-10 was in 2007 and it wasn't all that great. The J-11 used had one Al-31 and one WS-10 engine for testing.

If your WS-10 was great, you wouldn't have ordered 100s of new Al-31s after the tests.
 

badguy2000

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You don't need complete ToT for license manufacturing. And China does not manufacture CFM-56. You source it directly from France or America for civilian purposes. CFM-56 was first delivered to China only in 1985. So, there is no way you can actually RE an engine you have no idea about. It is simply not possible without the source codes. Also, engine technology is very complex. Once you take an engine apart, there is no way you can put it back together again.
in fact, Russian didn't give chinese the code of flankers either, but Shenyang aircraft company indeed succeeded in decoding flankers and working out J11B.

it is not a hard task for chinese to decode cfm56.but because cfm56 is a civilian engine, so chinese redesigned the non-core parts when adopting the core of cfm56.


in fact, Yankees did raise protest to chinese after getting to know their CFM56 was scaned by Shenyang aircraft company.

to my funny,now yankees keep silent on ws10 ,but russian jump out to claim that WS10 is the piracy of their intellectur property....


The only engine you had access to was the AL-31. Russians did not give you ToT. But, there is a chance you could have stolen it from Russia. There are plenty of technology thieves in Russia. Your engine development may have had support from the Ukrainians too.



Not if you already have an engine core(Al-31 in 1998). The Kaveri engine can use the M-88 core and be ready in 3 years for testing.

Also, the CFM-56 engines that you have are series 3 engines. They have a thrust of 105KN at the max. There is no way you can make changes to the core to produce a thrust of 126KN as in the WS-10 or AL-31 without ToT.
all above is just your clueless imagation .

in fact, at that time,CMF56 engines in china were all under close supervision of Yankees ,although USA and CHinese were in honeymoon in 1980s.

but in 1980s chinese did succeeded in taking out several CMF56 out of the hand of Yankees,scanning them ,then sending them back secretely . of course ,that is a 007-style story.

Yankees got to know the story until one highrank CHinese official betrayed china and fled to USA after 1989.

The WS-10A and Al-31 have been modified to produce a thrust of 132KN from 126KN, coincidence. The first J-11 flight with the WS-10 was in 2007 and it wasn't all that great. The J-11 used had one Al-31 and one WS-10 engine for testing.

If your WS-10 was great, you wouldn't have ordered 100s of new Al-31s after the tests.
why cHina still import AL31?
1.
Chinese has some obstacles to mass-produce WS10 .the production of WS10 can not meet the demand of expanding fleet of PLAAF.

2.the reliablity of WS sitll needs proving after ws10 is in service...WS10 is fitted with double-engine J11B instead of single-engine J10.
 

AJSINGH

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Honestly,Chinese J-7 is copied from MIG-21, and China has developed and refined the J-7 fighter now which is the best version in MIG-21 family.

But so far, the India can't even make or COPY the MIG-21 fighter all by themselves . :blum3:

Maybe you want to say sth about the LCA. Well,tell me how can you guys develop some highly advanced aircraft without the ablity to produce some less advanced one. BTW, the China J-10 are already in service now, where is the LCA??

High-tek can not be bought or borrowed. Because nobudy would give you the high-tek. You are on your own. R&D step by step,that is the only way.
Mig 21 bison is the best variant of Mig 21 and not J-7 tiger ,
USAF F-15C pilot once said during cope india 2004 " it was Mig 21 with BVR capabilities and isralie radar jamming pods which gave us a hard time in WVR comabt " if u must know that Mig 21 frame being very small .and with isralie radar jamming pod it is virtually invisible to F-15c asea radar .U see india honours the contract we are not chinese.we have dignity .we dont copy stuff but develop on own on .its a different matter if that development period takes long .Lca when finished will be the best in the class '
and part of the fault that LCA is not in IAF is because ever changing IAF needs for aircraft .they did not cooperate much with HAL.
 

hbogyt

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re:

The Chinese announced the capability to make the WS-10 only after 2006, 8 years after the Russians supplied the Al-31. J-10 production started in 2003-04. The J-10s have been using Al-31s since the beginning. Till date there has not been a single recorded WS-10 flight test on a J-10.



The JF-17 is barely ready for serial production. The radar for the JF-17 is still not ready and will not be ready for another year or two. The Italians have made improvements to the radar, but its modest. It cannot even match the French RDY-3 which is a generation ahead.



Well, your access to Middle East oil will be hampered. If the Russians cut off supply then imports will reduce drastically. Anyways, even if we cut off your supply of oil, it doesn't mean that alternative sources will get a big boost in the short run. It will take years to build an alternate supply.



And how are you going to transport coal to the thermal plants? And how will you run your generators in the coal mines without fuel?



Give that as a reason to your boss on why you stopped coming to work. Your Trucks will suffer a lot due to shortage of fuel.



Dude, a single truckers strike in India for a day seriously cripples our cities. Have you ever thought from where you get your city gets food and electricity from? Food prices suddenly sky rocket for more than 3 days because of that. Lack of fuel is all that is needed for an entire economy to collapse.
Excuse me. How did you come to know that "WS-10 takes twice the amount of time to reach full capacity."? Adding what badguy said, clearly WS-10 was tested before Al-31.

I rest my case on JF-17 for now. Let us come back to this in a few years time. To my knowledge, the Italian radar is not going to happen.

Cutting off our oil supply in the sea would be difficult. It would also be unlikely for the Russians to cut off their supply as per OOE.

Those freight trains use electricity. Steam-powered trains can be used too. On-site generators can be assigned priority in fuel rationing. Remember China is not without oil here.

I meant Alternative Energy industry as in electric cars, buses and trucks for civilian use; coal to oil convertion, bio-fuel and the like, for which China already have the technology.

Food prices will stay where they are due to wartime price control and rationing. You should have read my post thoroughly so I don't have to type it again. For the same reason, inflation will cease to exist.

China doesn't have a lack of fuel, for necessities that is.


This is turning into a boxing match. Look at those people who thanked you. They were probably cheering as you threw a right jab.
 

badguy2000

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Mig 21 bison is the best variant of Mig 21 and not J-7 tiger ,
USAF F-15C pilot once said during cope india 2004 " it was Mig 21 with BVR capabilities and isralie radar jamming pods which gave us a hard time in WVR comabt " if u must know that Mig 21 frame being very small .and with isralie radar jamming pod it is virtually invisible to F-15c asea radar .U see india honours the contract we are not chinese.we have dignity .we dont copy stuff but develop on own on .its a different matter if that development period takes long .Lca when finished will be the best in the class '
and part of the fault that LCA is not in IAF is because ever changing IAF needs for aircraft .they did not cooperate much with HAL.
the airframe of mg21 is outdated . so the upgrade of MG21 can not give attention to both BVR capacity and WVR capaity at the same time.

the upgrade of mg21bison pay more attention to BVR capacity ,at the expense of its WVR capaicty . in fact, after carrying BVR missiles, mg21 bison is very clusmsy and lose its manueverability and flight-voyage .

Chinese upgrade of J7 pays more attention to its WVR capacity at the expense of BVR capacity. after upgrade, new J7P has wonderful manuerverability as good as F16,but it still can not fire BVR missle.

SO,Mg21bis and J7 are upgraded according to different upgrading concept . it is a nonsense to tell which is better than the other.

BTW, MG21 is good bird,but it is outdated. however upgraded it is , mg21 can not survive in modern air fight in the front of new birds....
the upgrade of Mg21 is just a compromise to the shortage of the defence budget.
 

hit&run

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it is nonsence to think about J7 being war worthy without BVR capacity; this is what Ajsingh trying to tell.
 

hbogyt

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re

Mig 21 bison is the best variant of Mig 21 and not J-7 tiger ,
USAF F-15C pilot once said during cope india 2004 " it was Mig 21 with BVR capabilities and isralie radar jamming pods which gave us a hard time in WVR comabt " if u must know that Mig 21 frame being very small .and with isralie radar jamming pod it is virtually invisible to F-15c asea radar .U see india honours the contract we are not chinese.we have dignity .we dont copy stuff but develop on own on .its a different matter if that development period takes long .Lca when finished will be the best in the class '
and part of the fault that LCA is not in IAF is because ever changing IAF needs for aircraft .they did not cooperate much with HAL.
Ahhh, yes, OOE can tell you more about the discussion on F-7 vs Bison. As far as I know, F-7PG is aerodynamically superior.

You do copy, just in the form of ToT and such. LCA can never be the best in its class, because the rest of that class will not stop and wait for LCA. I gather from what you're saying that IAf just keeps changing the requirement to match technological advances in other countries. Well that's what the Chinese did many years ago. IAf is being a little incooperative, but they are just doing their job. I think the government needs to do some coordination here.
 

badguy2000

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it is nonsence to think about J7 being war worthy without BVR capacity; this is what Ajsingh trying to tell.
according to PLAAF's doctrine, J7 won't fight independently. they just play a assistant role when defending airbases.

which ungrade concept is better can be proven only by real wars....
after all ,it is also doubtful whether a clumsy bird with BVR missles like MG21bis can survive in modern air fights.
 

F-14

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F-5 Plus, incorporated a new Elta 2032 radar and other improvements. The Brazilian program, whose product is called the F-5M (Modernized), is armed with Python V coupled to the DASH helmet-mounted cue system, and new GRIFO radar, cockpit displays and navigation electronics. The Brazilian F-5M is also equipped with the Israeli Derby missile and can operate in a BVR environment. In the Cruzex 2006 multinational war games, a Brazilian F-5 made simulated kills on two French Air Force Dassault Mirage 2000N aircraft, which were supported by an E-3 Sentry and escorted by other two Mirage 2000C. This result was achieved by using the Derby and the information relayed by datalink from an AEW&C plane, the Embraer R-99, fitted with the Erieye AESA radar

BadGuy 2000 it is ludacrise to say that just because The MiG-21 is a out dated plat form the J-7 on the other hand has no known BRV capability i use the above quoted statemnet to prove my point
 

p2prada

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in fact, Russian didn't give chinese the code of flankers either, but Shenyang aircraft company indeed succeeded in decoding flankers and working out J11B.
China will actually find it easy to steal technology from both India and Russia due to our own shortcomings.

it is not a hard task for chinese to decode cfm56.but because cfm56 is a civilian engine, so chinese redesigned the non-core parts when adopt the core of cfm56.
It is very hard. And what you say about non-core parts etc etc is impossible without access to source codes or ToT. You simply can't break an engine into pieces and then try to figure out how to put it back together. Impossible.

in fact, Yankees did raise protest to chinese after know their CFM56 was scaned by Shenyang aircraft company.

to my funny,now yankees keep silent on ws10 ,but russian jump out to claim that WS10 is the piracy of their intellectur property....
Sheer fantasy. A country which is so secretive will suddenly come out with so much "espionage" information is hard to comprehend. The Russians have it right and the Yankees are wrong. Simple as that.

all above is just your clueless imagation .
The above statement doubles back to you.

in fact, at that time,CMF56 engines in china were all under close supervision of Yankees ,although USA and CHinese were in honeymoon in 1980s.
Yes, and the CFM-56-3 are completely inferior to the Al-31F. So, be happy that you ripped off an inferior engine when you already had a far superior engine in your hands. The Al-31 is ahead compared to CFM-56-3 for what it is made for.

but in 1980s chinese did succeeded in taking out several CMF56 out of the hand of Yankees,scanning them ,then sending them back secretely . of course ,that is 007-style story.
Of course. Were you the 007 agent. Be a little more logical than resorting to classic epics.

Yankees got to know the story until one high-ranked CHinese official betrayed china and flee to USA after 1989.
I guess that's coming from your first hand experience working for the PLA and CCP. Give it another 50 years for the information to be declassified. Then spout nonsense.


why cHina still import AL31?
1.
Chinese has some obstacles to mass-produce WS10 .the production of WS10 can not meet the demand of expanding fleet of PLAAF.

2.the reliablity of WS sitll needs proving after ws10 is in service...WS10 is fitted with double-engine J11B instead of single-engine J10.
Only because the WS-10 is not working, after a so called flight test in 2002 and an official confirmation of being able to manufacture WS-10 only in 2006. ROFL. Your J-11s have both Al-31 and WS-10.
 

badguy2000

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BadGuy 2000 it is ludacrise to say that just because The MiG-21 is a out dated plat form the J-7 on the other hand has no known BRV capability i use the above quoted statemnet to prove my point
both F5 and Mg21 are outdated.

However, F5 has a much bigger nose than mig21 ,so F5 can hold modern radar without much modification while mig21 can not.

F5 also has much bigger airframe than mg21 ,so can hold much more fule and has longer flight-voyage.

F5's maneuverablility was much poorer than mg21 in 1970s. However, it can be improved by the upgrade of engine.

So, F5 has much more upgrade potential than mig21,although F5 is also a outdate platform
 

F-14

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read the statement again Badguy
 

p2prada

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Excuse me. How did you come to know that "WS-10 takes twice the amount of time to reach full capacity."? Adding what badguy said, clearly WS-10 was tested before Al-31.
Twice amount of what capacity?

Anyways, you had Al-31s in 1992. Your first WS-10 test was easily after 2005.

Cutting off our oil supply in the sea would be difficult. It would also be unlikely for the Russians to cut off their supply as per OOE.
Too many factors involved.

Those freight trains use electricity. Steam-powered trains can be used too. On-site generators can be assigned priority in fuel rationing. Remember China is not without oil here.
Steam engines. You cannot do that in just a few months.

I meant Alternative Energy industry as in electric cars, buses and trucks for civilian use; coal to oil convertion, bio-fuel and the like, for which China already have the technology.
Yeah! Right! Don't tell me you can buy a different car every other week. The technology exists. But, that does not mean it is affordable.

Food prices will stay where they are due to wartime price control and rationing. You should have read my post thoroughly so I don't have to type it again. For the same reason, inflation will cease to exist.
Every time a war was fought there was either a recession or high inflation. Look back at history for confirmation. Wartime price control and rationing will lead to inflation mate.

China doesn't have a lack of fuel, for necessities that is.
China has fuel enough for military purposes. But, civilians will be denied a lot of the fuel.

This is turning into a boxing match. Look at those people who thanked you. They were probably cheering as you threw a right jab.
WoW. What a comeback? Come out with better points or leave the ring.
 

p2prada

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according to PLAAF's doctrine, J7 won't fight independently. they just play a assistant role when defending airbases.

which ungrade concept is better can be proven only by real wars....
after all ,it is also doubtful whether a clumsy bird with BVR missles like MG21bis can survive in modern air fights.
You are the first guy on the planet to use the words "Mig-21" and "clumsy" in the same statement.
 

badguy2000

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You are the first guy on the planet to use the words "Mig-21" and "clumsy" in the same statement.
when carring two BVR missles, one mg21bis is as clumsy as one pregnant hen..

of cousre, MG21bis can resume good maneurerability,if they don't carry BVR missles....but if MG21bis don't carry BVR missles, why upgrade it?
MG21bis get BVR capacity at the expense of WVR capacity and flight voyage.
 

ahmedsid

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when carring two BVR missles, one mg21bis is as clumsy as one pregnant hen..

of cousre, MG21bis can resume good maneurerability,if they don't carry BVR missles....but if MG21bis don't carry BVR missles, why upgrade it?
MG21bis get BVR capacity at the expense of WVR capacity and flight voyage.
Care to explain and backup your claims? This is a defence forum, and in such places, you back up your claims or keep quiet.
 

badguy2000

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Care to explain and backup your claims? This is a defence forum, and in such places, you back up your claims or keep quiet.
ok, I keep quiet, since you don't like to listen to the truth...

maybe to you, the advertisements from Russian or Israel may always more moving than the truth.
 

hit&run

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according to PLAAF's doctrine, J7 won't fight independently. they just play a assistant role when defending airbases.

which ungrade concept is better can be proven only by real wars....
after all ,it is also doubtful whether a clumsy bird with BVR missles like MG21bis can survive in modern air fights.
CLUMSY ...give me a break, 2.0 mack with BVR capabilities. You know what is 2.0 mack speed in meters/sec.

To discuss about any bird with more manoeuvrability and without BVR missile is a wastage of time. you need to study a bit more about upgraded MIG 21 bison. The Mig-21 Bison has the Phazatron Koypo/Super Koypo multirole radars. Koypo range - 57 km, Super Koypo - 80 km,These radars can track 8 targets simultanously and target 2 at one time. It uses the Tarang (indeginous) RWR.

you are challenging with a plane already dead (even interceptor) for dogfight by BVR capable plane?

Mig 21 bison is not clumsy even if WVR missiles are used then the BISON has an edge; the helmet mounted sight is a great match winner and is able to deal with any close range threat (heat seeking missiles cued up to 45 degrees off bore sight).
 

Daredevil

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ok, I keep quiet, since you don't like to listen to the truth...

maybe to you, the advertisements from Russian or Israel may always more moving than the truth.
You will keep quiet because you don't know sh*t about Mig21-bis or bison. You should be out of your mind to compare a WVR and BVR capable aircrafts. They have different purpose in a battle field. BVR capable aircrafts will win over WVR capable aircrafts because of 'first see first kill' factor.:2guns:
 

F-14

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Badguy to talk like a absaloute idiot i Think it has become a trait of your fourm life

please understand a few points


Basic guide to air warfare


(Do not under estimate a platform no matter how old

air combat is based on tatics not completely on Platforms

in air warfare Upgrades do make a sea change in the platforms

the foundation of air warfare is situational awareness

the MiG-21 throught its upgrades have manage to stay up to date

an example of a cost effective upgrade package that has improved the lethality of the MiG -21 is quoted below

The MiG-21 2000 upgrade provides modifications to the cockpit configuration, avionics architecture and weapons systems, enabling the MiG-21-2000 to compete with Western developed fighters and to make the transition to Western standards
the below quoted passage would show you how can it change situational awareness

The MiG-21 2000 cockpit features a new pilot-friendly layout, incorporating a head-up display (HUD), eye-level multifunction colour displays, hands on throttle and stick control (HOTAS), solid-state charge coupled device (CCD) camera, videotape recorder, and one-piece windshield.

This design overcomes the shortcomings of the original cockpit layout, which is crowded and lacks most of the desired man-machine interface characteristics.

The MiG-21 2000 can be equipped with a display and sight helmet (DASH) system, supplied by Elbit of Haifa, which enables the pilot to aim the weapons simply by looking at the target. The system works by measuring the pilot's line of sight relative to the aircraft, and transfers the information to the aircraft's sensors, avionics and weapon systems. The helmet displays vital information, such as the missile line of sight, missile status, flight information and warning data, on the visor. The DASH helmet allows the pilot to fly head-up and off-boresight and assists the pilot to detect, identify and shoot earlier.


the next passage talksin detail about the wepons and avionics that the upgrade brings to the Fishbed

IAI Lahav has augmented the original weapons system by introducing a new armament interface and control unit, which enables computerised control and release of weapons, including third and fourth-generation air-to-air missiles. This system also gives the pilot the ability to use blind attack as well as continuously computed impact point (CCIP) and dive-toss bombing techniques. CCIP bombing involves the deployment of air-to-ground weapons, using the HUD to indicate the impact point for release of the weapons. Dive-toss bombing involves the release of air-to-ground weapons at the end of a steep dive manoeuvre towards the target.

The upgrade package for the MiG-21 gives the aircraft beyond-visual-range capability. The MiG-21 variants are capable of deploying a range of air-to-air weapons on the four underwing pylons, in addition to the AA-2 Atoll air-to-air missile or the anti-radar AA-2C Atoll missile.

The Python missile, developed by Rafael in Haifa, is suitable for very close combat and medium-range interception. Python 4 incorporates digital electronics and an advanced multi-frequency seeker with powerful counter countermeasures (ECCM) and background rejection.

In order to enhance the upgraded MiG-21's defensive capabilities, the electronic warfare systems have also been upgraded.


The avionics system is based on Lahav's integrated modular avionics architecture, which uses a centralised mission and display processor, developed by IAI with the cooperation of Astronautics Co. Israel. In addition, the use of a new inertial navigation and global positioning system (INS/GPS) and air data computer ensures increased navigation and weapons-release accuracy.

If required, the MiG-21 2000 can be fitted with an EL/M-2032 radar, developed by IAI Elta Electronic Industries, based in Ashdod. The radar, which uses a low sidelobe planar array antenna and pulse Doppler beam sharpening, provides all-altitude, all-aspect look-up / look-down and shoot-down capability.


MiG-21 2000 Fighter Ground Attack - Air Force Technology
the above statement shall clearly state to you how the situational awarness and combat effectiveness has been improved there by discrediting your asumption
 

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