MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Rahul Singh]

And for 10 years India will keep playing the regional punching bag in the hands of Pakistan and China on every dispute.

Against Pakistan, we already have enough. Against China, we will never have until we develop our MIC in parity with Chinese.

Developing a MIC needs a long gestation period with a constant flow of money. Spending 30 billion on 115 jet is contrary to that cause.

One example i will to quote.

India bought Mirage 2000s during 80s. It was a fantastic aircraft then and still now. Performed well during Kargil. But we had to put Israelis on it to get made capable of dropping LGBs. Still ok until sometime back when IAF decided to upgrade Mirage 2000. The cost of upgrade minus engine is more than that of a brand new Tejas MK-1. Up gradation is moving at snail's pace today. Some even say it has stopped at HAL.

Come to future. What sense it would make 20 years from now when France will quote the cost of upgrade more than that of band new AMCA. Some will say we will have ToT so we will do it ourselves. Well, let us take Su-30MKI as an example. We also have ToT for it still when it was decided to upgrade it to Super Sukhoi HAL went to Russians to sign a deal. Suffice to put the harsh reality of ToT out in open.

We need to build MIC. Does not matter how and what sacrifices it requires.

 

[Kay]

Against Pakistan, we already have enough. Against China, we will never have until we develop our MIC in parity with Chinese.

Developing a MIC needs a long gestation period with a constant flow of money. Spending 30 billion on 115 jet is contrary to that cause.

One example i will to quote.

India bought Mirage 2000s during 80s. It was a fantastic aircraft then and still now. Performed well during Kargil. But we had to put Israelis on it to get made capable of dropping LGBs. Still ok until sometime back when IAF decided to upgrade Mirage 2000. The cost of upgrade minus engine is more than that of a brand new Tejas MK-1. Up gradation is moving at snail's pace today. Some even say it has stopped at HAL.

Come to future. What sense it would make 20 years from now when France will quote the cost of upgrade more than that of band new AMCA. Some will say we will have ToT so we will do it ourselves. Well, let us take Su-30MKI as an example. We also have ToT for it still when it was decided to upgrade it to Super Sukhoi HAL went to Russians to sign a deal. Suffice to put the harsh reality of ToT out in open.

We need to build MIC. Does not matter how and what sacrifices it requires.

Exactly.We are paying for their research in future aircrafts which we will again buy perpetuating the cycle. Keep the money home.
Besides, no air Force has a mix of light, medium and heavy aircrafts. Light (Tejas) and heavy (Sukhois) is more than adequate. We have no obligation to pay for bullshit peddled by IAF at the behest of lobbysts.

 

[hit&run]

Hey all!

I am currently working an article that I hope to get published on the 'MMRCA 2.0' and the only logical outcome and was hoping to have some input from our esteemed members on a few matters.

Is it possible to give an outline of the 6 contenders and their respective strengths/weaknesses purely from a technical perspective and their case/or lack thereof for MMRCA 2.0?

You have been consistent that India will procure more jets after initial 36 as part of MMRCA. Many other theories were floated against it but you remained steadfast. I am not sure India will buy more Rafale but this new tender has substantiate your claims.

Well done.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Exactly.We are paying for their research in future aircrafts which we will again buy perpetuating the cycle. Keep the money home.
Besides, no air Force has a mix of light, medium and heavy aircrafts. Light (Tejas) and heavy (Sukhois) is more than adequate. We have no obligation to pay for bullshit peddled by IAF at the behest of lobbysts.

And it gets ridiculously disgusting to mention that entire worth of Dassault is only ~ 9 billion USD.

I wonder how people see a logic in not erecting a Dassault kind of company with 9 billion USD thereby guaranteeing future of Combat Aviation in India. But waste 30 billion USD on 110 fighters which is not even 13% of the required strength and which will drain on our economy for decades in the name of support and up-gradation. Without giving any guarantee of its usability in the way we will need during any war.

Such is the hangover of the colonial era. Something properly called genetical transfer of inferiority complex.

 

[YagamiLight]

Between announcements and cancellations, the Tejas projects is moving at accelerated pace. Then there is a possibility of getting a 100 Kn Kaveri engine among a host of other things which was secured with the purchase of just 36 Rafale.

Sanctions for both MK-1A and MK-2 has been given in last 4 years.

Considering that the only way defence preparedness of the armed forces can be maintained is through indigenous. He definitely playing smart by going full throttle on indigenous products and very careful with purchasing imported assets. Thereby not only saving money for developments of such products but also securing required foreign technologies to keep it unhindered.

Yeah so all hail to him.

Are bhakths dumb or do they pretend to be dumb? Mrca is a completely different project than LCA . So how does cancelling MRCA 4 yrs back when that itself ran for 8 years only to restart it again which will again run for minimum 4 years, hence a total delay of 16 years a good thing? Then again bhakths will fap to Modi even if he pimps the country out and so it is pretty stupid of me to expect sanity from them. They will continue fapping to Modi even though the turd has fucked the defence procurement and the country's defence readiness royally

 

[YagamiLight]

And it gets ridiculously disgusting to mention that entire worth of Dassault is only ~ 9 billion USD

That's because Indian public defence section is pathetic. Hal and drdo is so rotten that even court martially every single bc working there and exiling their family members after confiscating all their wealth to set an example will not be a adharmic action. Even if you pour 2000 tn$ on these scum, they will not deliver shit. Just visit a drdo center to experience their work ethics first hand

 

[Rahul Singh]

That's because Indian public defence section is pathetic. Hal and drdo is so rotten that even court martially every single bc working there and exiling their family members after confiscating all their wealth to set an example will not be a adharmic action. Even if you pour 2000 tn$ on these scum, they will not deliver shit. Just visit a drdo center to experience their work ethics first hand

Why just DRDO what about rest?........... Deport half of the country?

Still, DRDO has given BMD, BVRAAM, 4.5 gen fighter, BMs, SAMs, SSBNs, etc.

How many in private sector can develop such weapon systems with meagre funding? Have you compared the budget of weapon systems that DRDO has developed with similar systems developed by other nations?

DRDO may be slow still it the only keeping the flag high.

Are bhakths dumb or do they pretend to be dumb? Mrca is a completely different project than LCA . So how does cancelling MRCA 4 yrs back when that itself ran for 8 years only to restart it again which will again run for minimum 4 years, hence a total delay of 16 years a good thing? Then again bhakths will fap to Modi even if he pimps the country out and so it is pretty stupid of me to expect sanity from them. They will continue fapping to Modi even though the turd has fucked the defence procurement and the country's defence readiness royally

Certainly, LCA MK-1 is different from the MRCA requirement which was originally for a MIrage 2000 class fighter. Today Tejas MK-2 which is being called MCA and also a Mirage 2000 class, not much.

So why go for costly procurement when a fighter of similar capability can be built indigenously?

Speaking is commercial terms. India's entire defence budget is around ~60 billion USD. Out of which 15 billion is spared for buying capital equipment. Considering India goes on to buy 115 more rafales. Then the total worth of the deal will be ~30 billion. At the rate of 11 Rafale per year, out of those 15 billion Rafale alone would eat ~ 3 billion USD per year for next 10 years. Double the rate from 11 to 22 Rafales per year then ~40% of the 15 billion will be eaten by Rafale alone.

Now the questions is do we only need Rafale? What about capital asset requirement of other two services, especially Navy's?

Certainly, Bhakts are way smart to see this the way it is...........Pimps of Rahul Gandhi, however, are too inferior to get even a hint.

 

[abingdonboy]

Rafales f3 are better than current pakfa and F4 version will be better than FGFA in many ways

I agree but could you expand on this point using technical information so I can include this in my article bro?

they can produce only 8 Tejas aircraft per year presently. This would probably be ramped up to one squadron of 18 aircraft per year by 2020. And that's just not good enough.

And think about this, when the last Rafale is delivered in 2022, the SOLE fighter in production for the IAF will be the LCA, how insane it that.

LCA is not a bad plane at all, it will happily take on anything in PAF's current inventory BUT when the PLAAF is inducting 'heavies' and the IAF is only inducting fighters with a MTOW of 13-14 tons it's a woeful situation.

You have been consistent that India will procure more jets after initial 36 as part of MMRCA. Many other theories were floated against it but you remained steadfast. I am not sure India will buy more Rafale but this new tender has substantiate your claims.

Well done.

Well sir I was only looking at the situation logically, when you see all that has been done on the fighter side the SEF competition made no sense, the ONLY thing that makes sense now is the Rafale for MMRCA 2.0.

 

[abingdonboy]

Conspiracy Theory is

India secretly supports Tejas project but if it out-out says that it is not open to foreign anymore then it will cause scrutiny on many of 'social issues' & sanctions.

It's not really a conspiracy theory I'd say, the SEF IMHO was a hedge against LCA failure and the fact it has been thrown away says it all.

And which fighter/OEM best compliments LCA? Rafale/DA.

If Rafale deal is any yardstick then surely 15 billion

I actually think Rafale is the only fighter with a decent chance of coming in at around the $15Bn mark ($105m*110 is around $11bn, then weapons packages and base infrastrcture for 3 bases to house 6 SQNs will be arounf $3bn), in or around $15bn. Not only is the Eurofighter already more expensive than the Rafale (and I'd argue F-18 also) but they would be starting from scratch in India and would also be subject to the Indian ISEs which is an easy $3-5Bn on top of the above figures.

Rafale being costly is a total MYTH, the unit price it is sold to India at is identical to what is paid by the French armed forces and on par with what a F-16 Blk.70/72 would cost easily. The LCC cost of Rafale is VERY economical because ease of maintenence is built in to the Rafale.

Too slow, too late ... hoping this is just a smoke screen before 2019 elections. Then a quick G2G deal with France can be inked in a matter of months.

GtG option for such a large order is not an option politically sadly and procedures will have to be followed just to keep this govt free from the typical opposition BS.

These jets will be produced early given Modi remains in power.

Oh absolutely, if anyone but Modi comes to power in 2019 this deal is DEAD.

Loooooool what nonsense! Let's just ignore that this tender is not meant to provide fighters for the Rafale bases. Or that it includes licence production rights, which would be added to Rafales too. Let's forget that Rafale is one of the costliest fighters currently on the market per unit or per hour and that the SPM policy has a high priority on costs. Let's ignore IAF chief Dhanoas statements, that they give priority to fighters that can be procured in numbers and at lower operational costs...

...but yes the costs for the 2 bases makes Rafale L1. :biggrin2:

Dumb analysis that entirely ignores the ISEs.

DA will be able to offer a deal at least 20% cheaper than ANY other OEM purely on this basis but I'd say the price differential is going to be much higher than even that because the Rafale is the best on the table so to get to Rafale like specs the other OEMs would have to quote even higher prices to make suitable modifications.

Fact is DRAL is alreay on the ground, already funded and they have the roadmap to ramp up to a full spec prodcution facility, GOOD LUCK convincing anyone in MOD that another Indian SP/foreign OEM JV can build a greenfield facility (for zero money to keep it competitive with DRAL) and start producing fighters before DRAL can at a lower price.

 

[Rahul Singh]

LCA is not a bad plane at all, it will happily take on anything in PAF's current inventory BUT when the PLAAF is inducting 'heavies' and the IAF is only inducting fighters with a MTOW of 13-14 tons it's a woeful situation.

IF we try to match PLAAF by meeting requirements through imports we are sure to leave no money to invest in developing indigenous weapons considering we don't go bankrupt first.

If GOI is buying Rafales only for meeting numbers and not using it as a mask for some ToT in critical category. If we are not getting French to codevelop 110-130Kn Kaveri for AMCA then it will be a total waste of it.

Rafale may be superior to J-20 & 31 but sheer numbers PLAAF can field will eventually overpower any fleet of rafale that IAF will field.

So whatever we buy the primary aim should be the development of our own industry. Even if it means a long painful gestation period. Then so be it.

 

[abingdonboy]

IF we try to match PLAAF by meeting requirements through imports we are sure to leave no money to invest in developing indigenous weapons considering we don't go bankrupt first.

If GOI is buying Rafales only for meeting numbers and not using it as a mask for some ToT in critical category. If we are not getting French to codevelop 110-130Kn Kaveri for AMCA then it will be a total waste of it.

Rafale may be superior to J-20 & 31 but sheer numbers PLAAF can field will eventually overpower any fleet of rafale that IAF will field.

So whatever we buy the primary aim should be the development of our own industry. Even if it means a long painful gestation period. Then so be it.

Oh absolutley! And this is why I 100% support Rafale, for whatever BS other OEMs will say it is the ONLY fighter that will aid India's aerospace industry in a meaningful way.

We all KNOW that LM, Boeing and SAAB are predators that will actively work to undermine and kill off India's domestic aerospace Industry as they have done in every other market they have entered (particuarly US OEMs).

Rafale will bring the capabilities to out perform PLAAF, Rafale industry partners will bring the tech to Indian industry and we can catergorically say the Rafale will be the last imported fighter jet India every buys, with American OEMs we can ALREADY SEE that they are trying to leverage their 4.5 gen jets to shove their 5th gen jets down India's throat.

 

[Tactical Frog]

I agree but could you expand on this point using technical information so I can include this in my article bro?

Some detailed info about F4 standard there . But maybe nothing new there for you

http://www.aircosmosinternational.com/media/pmi/5a70845244d7b-tap2580-79329.pdf

 

[abingdonboy]

Would anyone happen to have a unit cost (excluding mods and weapons) for each of the other perspective fighters (excluding Rafale)?

@Tactical Frog @Sancho @Rahul Singh

 

[Samsung J7]

Saying French will give ToT for aerospace industry is laughable. They r masters in fleecing.

Look at the mirage upgrade cost.
New Delhi signed a $2.4 billion upgrade deal for the Mirage 2000 fleet in July 2011.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...a-accepts-first-upgraded-mirage-2000s-410545/

Dont whom to we blame in this deal. Spending 2.5 billion USD money dollar for upgrading 30 yer old jets.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

There is no grand vision here. Moodiji is just saving himself from Rajiv style backfire.

- Such grand Govt to govt deals means someone will make the money (some dealer, some babu, implicating PM whether he gets a dime or not or whether he has info or not)

- 36 rafale deal was supposedly pitched as a game changer, which it wasn't

- CAG will be behind GoI's back if it bought more planes in flying condition from France

- Effectively, GoI messed it up on this

Old deal should have been followed through. Anyway, when buying foreign strategic weapons, you do not have an upper/strong hand. I see this as waste of more time and money. But what is done is done!

Being half smart does not really help.

 

[indus]

Request posters complaining a start of procurement drama to tell what options do we have if not import another fighter so as to stop depleting numbers???

 

[Kay]

Our best and optimal option is increasing Tejas production numbers through more private partnership and focus on AMCA.

I don't think any country will wage a war with an adversary having 300 Tejas and 200 Sukhois unless you have at least 100 stealth aircrafts. So anything other than AMCA is loss of time, money, energy and focus for us.

 

[Samsung J7]

Procure another 15 powerful awacs. Mass produce tejas 300-400. Create an network centric airforce/ air defence.That will be enough to our defence along with s400.

Learn from Iran. They dont hav any airforce. Still they r challening US in middle east and afghanistan. Its all about will power.

 

[abingdonboy]

Saying French will give ToT for aerospace industry is laughable. They r masters in fleecing.

Look at the mirage upgrade cost.
New Delhi signed a $2.4 billion upgrade deal for the Mirage 2000 fleet in July 2011.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...a-accepts-first-upgraded-mirage-2000s-410545/

Dont whom to we blame in this deal. Spending 2.5 billion USD money dollar for upgrading 30 yer old jets.

This has been discussed to death, the costs are justified.

There is no grand vision here. Moodiji is just saving himself from Rajiv style backfire.

- Such grand Govt to govt deals means someone will make the money (some dealer, some babu, implicating PM whether he gets a dime or not or whether he has info or not)

- 36 rafale deal was supposedly pitched as a game changer, which it wasn't

- CAG will be behind GoI's back if it bought more planes in flying condition from France

- Effectively, GoI messed it up on this

Old deal should have been followed through. Anyway, when buying foreign strategic weapons, you do not have an upper/strong hand. I see this as waste of more time and money. But what is done is done!

Being half smart does not really help.

Total nonsense.

- GTG deals cannot involve 'dealers' or middlemen, there's no scope for kickbacks as every single penny is accounted for and the respective ministries liase with one another, where's the corruption?
- CAG would be on GoI's back if this MMRCA deal HADN'T taken place as in that situation India would have ordered 36 gold plated Rafales with $55m USD worth of upgrades per plane. The ONLY way this investment is justifued and rationalised is with a larger follow on deal for >100 units.

 

[Samsung J7]

Total nonsense.

- GTG deals cannot involve 'dealers' or middlemen, there's no scope for kickbacks as every single penny is accounted for and the respective ministries liase with one another, where's the corruption?
- CAG would be on GoI's back if this MMRCA deal HADN'T taken place as in that situation India would have ordered 36 gold plated Rafales with $55m USD worth of upgrades per plane. The ONLY way this investment is justifued and rationalised is with a larger follow on deal for >100 units.

I think you never visited India. In India corruption is norm in every single government project. Corruption percentage vary from 10-40% of project amount. In rafale G-G deal every person associated with this deal got their share.