MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

Sancho

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Saab Receives Order for AESA X-band Fighter Array
26 October 2018

Saab has received an order from the U.S. Government for X-band Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) technology, which has its base in fighter applications. ...

...“This order is yet another proof of Saab’s state of the art gallium nitride based AESA radar development and further strengthens our offer of advanced radars and sensors”, says Anders Carp, head of Saab’s business area Surveillance. ...
https://saabgroup.com/media/news-pr...receives-order-for-aesa-x-band-fighter-array/

So even the US are interested in Saab's radar technology!
 

Sancho

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They should turn it around and ask for F-35 with local assembly or at least the F-18 SH Block 3, not the F-16.
Beggers can't be choosers, we put ourselves in this position, by keep delaying decisions on MMRCA and keep aligning ourselves to the US, while moving away from the Russians. They know we want something from them, now they can set the terms. But I don't think that their proposal will be limited to F16s, especially since the F18 has the potential to increase the order size by far.

Why would they propose F35, when they know, we have neither an (a Russian) alternative, nor the capability to develop such an aircraft anytime soon? Perfect situation for them to take advantage and sell their legacy fighters first and give the prospect for F35 later.
 
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vampyrbladez

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Beggers can't be choosers, we put ourselves in this position, by keep delaying decisions on MMRCA and keep aligning ourselves to the US, while moving away from the Russians. They know we want something from them, now they can set the terms. But I don't think that their proposal will be limited to F16s, especially since the F18 has the potential to increase the order size by far.

Why would they propose F35, when they know, we have neither a (Russian) alternative, nor the capability to develop such an aircraft anytime soon? Perfect situation for them, to take advantage and sell their legacy fighters first and give the prospect for F35 later.
We are not buying F 16s as even top brass is against it. F 18 SH for navy is very likely.

FGFA is on burner till Item 30 engines and new radars mature for 2025ish induction date.
 

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IAF to select 110 fighters after multi-role combat aircraft results

.

The process to select 110 fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF) will draw upon the field evaluation results of the now-cancelled Medium Muti-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) purchase deal to shorten and hasten the process, senior officials in the ministry of defence who aren’t authorised to speak to the media said.

In 2015, the Narendra Modi-led National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government at the Centre scrapped the US$ 20 billion (approx INR 140 billion) MMRCA project. Instead, it opted to buy 36 Rafale aircraft from French defence manufacturing giant Dassault through a government-to-government contract with France. The ~58,000 crore deal has triggered a major political controversy, with the Opposition alleging corruption and wrongdoing in the purchase of the aircraft which the government has vehemently denied.

Strapped with an ageing and depleting fighter fleet, IAF had floated a Request for Information (RFI) – a global tender – to buy 110 fighters. Of the 110 jets, around 85% will have to be built in India under the ‘Make in India’ programme in partnership with an Indian manufacturer under the Strategic Partnership (SP) route.

“What was tested earlier and proved will not be put to test again,” the officer said. “When we evaluate fighters now, only new additions, systems of the aircraft, and modifications made to the aircraft, if any, will be put to test. We have decided not to go through the entire process again. This will substantially cut down the time,” the first defence ministry officer said.

What may come as a relief to IAF is that all six global manufacturers who have responded to the RFI – Lockheed Martin F-16 and SAAB Gripen with single-engine fighters, and Boeing F-18, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and United Aircraft Corporation MiG-35 with twin-engine fighters – were also contenders for the previous MMRCA deal.

The air force is now in the process of finalising the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) – a list of must-have capabilities and parameters – for the aircraft. “We are ensuring that ASQR takes into account the disruptive and transformative technologies that are likely to be a reality in the coming decades. The ASQR will be complete in the next few weeks,” a second official involved in the acquisition process said.

“We hope to get a nod from the ministry (of defence) by March 2019,” the officer added.

With a new government expected to be sworn in next May, the IAF is keen to complete as much of the process as possible before that.

“We hope to start the process of field evaluation by next June and complete it as early as possible, so that commercial negotiation can start,” the second officer said.

Commercial negotiations are precurser to signing a contract.

The IAF spokesperson was not available for comment. Experts and former IAF test pilots who were involved in the acquisition of aircraft, however, said “using previous test results” is practical but advised caution at the same time.

“It is not necessary to test proven points in the QSR again; all previous points on which a platform was found to be non-complaint should be checked,” Air Marshal RK Sharma (retd), former Vice Chief of IAF and test pilot, said.

“Importantly, when checking fresh add-ons, modifications to a platform the IAF must ensure is that they check all parameters that the modification will affect,” he said

“The process that follows the selection of the aircraft like commercial negotiations, etc, should also be completed quickly,” he said.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
 

Sancho

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SPEAR3 — FLEXIBILITY AND AN ALMIGHTY PUNCH

...The integration process is moving at pace. SPEAR3 underwent its first test firing from a Eurofighter at Aberporth in Wales in March 2016 and was placed on contract later the same year. The development phase is due to be completed in early 2020, with an in-service date anticipated in the early 2020s.

Powered by a turbojet engine, SPEAR3 has the beyond-horizon reach — something in the order of about 140 kilometres — to ensure that the aircraft remains safely away from hostile air defence units. Impressive stand-off capability is one key feature, but SPEAR3 is also equipped with the latest generation multi-mode sensor seeker, providing increased flexibility in the kind of complex scenarios commonly envisaged in the future battlespace. It’s designed to be effective against air defence units, ballistic missile launchers, hardened structures, fast-moving and manoeuvring vehicles, main battle tanks, armoured personnel carriers and naval vessels. ...
https://world.eurofighter.com/articles/spear3-flexibility-and-an-almighty-punch

 

abingdonboy

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IAF to select 110 fighters after multi-role combat aircraft results

.

The process to select 110 fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF) will draw upon the field evaluation results of the now-cancelled Medium Muti-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) purchase deal to shorten and hasten the process, senior officials in the ministry of defence who aren’t authorised to speak to the media said.

In 2015, the Narendra Modi-led National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government at the Centre scrapped the US$ 20 billion (approx INR 140 billion) MMRCA project. Instead, it opted to buy 36 Rafale aircraft from French defence manufacturing giant Dassault through a government-to-government contract with France. The ~58,000 crore deal has triggered a major political controversy, with the Opposition alleging corruption and wrongdoing in the purchase of the aircraft which the government has vehemently denied.

Strapped with an ageing and depleting fighter fleet, IAF had floated a Request for Information (RFI) – a global tender – to buy 110 fighters. Of the 110 jets, around 85% will have to be built in India under the ‘Make in India’ programme in partnership with an Indian manufacturer under the Strategic Partnership (SP) route.

“What was tested earlier and proved will not be put to test again,” the officer said. “When we evaluate fighters now, only new additions, systems of the aircraft, and modifications made to the aircraft, if any, will be put to test. We have decided not to go through the entire process again. This will substantially cut down the time,” the first defence ministry officer said.

What may come as a relief to IAF is that all six global manufacturers who have responded to the RFI – Lockheed Martin F-16 and SAAB Gripen with single-engine fighters, and Boeing F-18, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and United Aircraft Corporation MiG-35 with twin-engine fighters – were also contenders for the previous MMRCA deal.

The air force is now in the process of finalising the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) – a list of must-have capabilities and parameters – for the aircraft. “We are ensuring that ASQR takes into account the disruptive and transformative technologies that are likely to be a reality in the coming decades. The ASQR will be complete in the next few weeks,” a second official involved in the acquisition process said.

“We hope to get a nod from the ministry (of defence) by March 2019,” the officer added.

With a new government expected to be sworn in next May, the IAF is keen to complete as much of the process as possible before that.

“We hope to start the process of field evaluation by next June and complete it as early as possible, so that commercial negotiation can start,” the second officer said.

Commercial negotiations are precurser to signing a contract.

The IAF spokesperson was not available for comment. Experts and former IAF test pilots who were involved in the acquisition of aircraft, however, said “using previous test results” is practical but advised caution at the same time.

“It is not necessary to test proven points in the QSR again; all previous points on which a platform was found to be non-complaint should be checked,” Air Marshal RK Sharma (retd), former Vice Chief of IAF and test pilot, said.

“Importantly, when checking fresh add-ons, modifications to a platform the IAF must ensure is that they check all parameters that the modification will affect,” he said

“The process that follows the selection of the aircraft like commercial negotiations, etc, should also be completed quickly,” he said.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
When have these hopes EVER translated into reality? Mid-2019 will be end of 2019 at best.

So trails complete 2019, recommendation given maybe in the middle of 2020, another 6-10 months of dilly dallying then opening of bids of T1/2 jets and only THEN the most exhaustive and complex process of cost and package negotiations will begin (maybe early 2021). Given another 2-3 years of this mess and then another 12 months for the MOD to sit, stall and generally get in the way before it goes for DAC clearance. Then another 12 months for CCS clearance and then contract signature a few months after that. First jet 3 years after THAT date and all 110 5-6 years after that.


What are we up to now? 2028-30?

This is why this farce is doomed to fail.

Let the Rafales come in 10 months, let the IAF be blown away by it and see how quickly the follow on order is placed thereafter (I suspect they will do it in around 2020 so as to maintain deliveries past the final 36th in mid-2022).


MMRCA 2.0 is just a foil that the GOI will use to keep the world’s govts and arms dealers entertained for a few years, will probably make aero India and a few other events more exciting and give some defence mags/sites som additional revenue from ad sales but that’s about it.
 

Pulkit

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Very true..
This is gonna take another 10 years to mature.
Though I do not agree or want an additional order of Rafale.

They are little too expensive for the airforce like ours as we donot have a budget which can support all in the pipeline.

The 36 ordered will in itself have an impact on the existing projects and additional will completely ruin it.

I can only wish IAF is happy with the current version of Tejas and a trust it built so that when Mk1A arrives (again f***ing hoping which never comes true) on time and they are able to produce it on time for IAF.

As per my belief MK1A will be ready mid of next year and can be production ready by 2020 mid. So by the time Rafale will be completelt delivered say 2022 we will be having 40 Mk and 10-12 MK1A already produced (8 per year, not expecting more than this).

Not sure how FGFA will end? but if we are placing orders then by 2025 we will have a squad of it also.

In that case we donot need more Rafales.
I will order addition Su over rafales anyday though.....
When have these hopes EVER translated into reality? Mid-2019 will be end of 2019 at best.

So trails complete 2019, recommendation given maybe in the middle of 2020, another 6-10 months of dilly dallying then opening of bids of T1/2 jets and only THEN the most exhaustive and complex process of cost and package negotiations will begin (maybe early 2021). Given another 2-3 years of this mess and then another 12 months for the MOD to sit, stall and generally get in the way before it goes for DAC clearance. Then another 12 months for CCS clearance and then contract signature a few months after that. First jet 3 years after THAT date and all 110 5-6 years after that.


What are we up to now? 2028-30?

This is why this farce is doomed to fail.

Let the Rafales come in 10 months, let the IAF be blown away by it and see how quickly the follow on order is placed thereafter (I suspect they will do it in around 2020 so as to maintain deliveries past the final 36th in mid-2022).


MMRCA 2.0 is just a foil that the GOI will use to keep the world’s govts and arms dealers entertained for a few years, will probably make aero India and a few other events more exciting and give some defence mags/sites som additional revenue from ad sales but that’s about it.
 

abingdonboy

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Very true..
This is gonna take another 10 years to mature.
Though I do not agree or want an additional order of Rafale.

They are little too expensive for the airforce like ours as we donot have a budget which can support all in the pipeline.

The 36 ordered will in itself have an impact on the existing projects and additional will completely ruin it.

I can only wish IAF is happy with the current version of Tejas and a trust it built so that when Mk1A arrives (again f***ing hoping which never comes true) on time and they are able to produce it on time for IAF.

As per my belief MK1A will be ready mid of next year and can be production ready by 2020 mid. So by the time Rafale will be completelt delivered say 2022 we will be having 40 Mk and 10-12 MK1A already produced (8 per year, not expecting more than this).

Not sure how FGFA will end? but if we are placing orders then by 2025 we will have a squad of it also.

In that case we donot need more Rafales.
I will order addition Su over rafales anyday though.....
In what world is the LCA a substitute for the Rafale?

I am a huge fan of the LCA and say the IAF should order as many as they possibly can and do it ASAP but let’s not delude ourselves. The Rafale is perhaps the finest 4.5++ gem fighters in existence, the LCA was never designed to have even 50% of the capabilities the Rafale has (although it will have a lot of utility).

More Rafales are inevitable- the price for the next 36 is baked into the original deal, the 2 bases being created for them can host 2 SQNs each, all of the original plans for this deal have been done with the knowledge that the IAF will have at least 72 of them.


And it’s a total myth that the Rafale is too expensive for the IAF

1) original deal is costly becuase of all the initial costs (training, supply, spares, infrastructure creation etc etc) but these are one off costs never to be incurred again- getting a new type would require this though.

2) IAF’s instance on Indian Specific Enhancments- some of these are still classified but even the ones we know about ensure that the IAF’s Rafale is the most advanced model ever made- more advanced than what even then french have. You want the best- you have to pay for it. Again these are SUNK NON-REOCCURRING COSTS that will not be present when follow on units are ordered. The marginal cost for every Rafale after the 36 up to 72 will be about 40% less than the original 36 and after 72 will still be about 20-30% less than the original batch.

If the IAF can’t afford more Rafales it cannot afford ANY of the jets in offer in MMRCA 2.0. It’s not only the most obvious choice because it’s the most advanced and capable machine on offer but it’s the most cost effective for the IAF.

If sense prevails (big IF when it comes to indian defences procurment of course) the future MMRCA of IAF is only Rafale Rafale Rafale.

Again- more Rafales and more LCA are not mutually exclusive, they are both coming and will be complimentary. An F16/Gripen joining the IAF will utterly destroy the LCA project.
 

Pulkit

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In what world is the LCA a substitute for the Rafale?
Never compared Rafale with Tejas and never said Tejas is it replacement. Just said instead of going for additional why not go for more Tejas. We need to replace workhorse i.e. your Migs and i donot beleive that it will be economically possible with rafales + you need numbers
I am a huge fan of the LCA and say the IAF should order as many as they possibly can and do it ASAP but let’s not delude ourselves. The Rafale is perhaps the finest 4.5++ gem fighters in existence, the LCA was never designed to have even 50% of the capabilities the Rafale has (although it will have a lot of utility).
Again never meant that. Not comparing them. I only think we need not place additional orders.
More Rafales are inevitable- the price for the next 36 is baked into the original deal, the 2 bases being created for them can host 2 SQNs each, all of the original plans for this deal have been done with the knowledge that the IAF will have at least 72 of them.
Agreed but even at reduced price the cost will be high enough to kill few of the other procurement s of IAF.
And it’s a total myth that the Rafale is too expensive for the IAF

1) original deal is costly becuase of all the initial costs (training, supply, spares, infrastructure creation etc etc) but these are one off costs never to be incurred again- getting a new type would require this though.
I doubt it will be a drastic change but again i am no expert
2) IAF’s instance on Indian Specific Enhancments- some of these are still classified but even the ones we know about ensure that the IAF’s Rafale is the most advanced model ever made- more advanced than what even then french have. You want the best- you have to pay for it. Again these are SUNK NON-REOCCURRING COSTS that will not be present when follow on units are ordered. The marginal cost for every Rafale after the 36 up to 72 will be about 40% less than the original 36 and after 72 will still be about 20-30% less than the original batch.
sorry i have no knowledge how to calculated that?
If the IAF can’t afford more Rafales it cannot afford ANY of the jets in offer in MMRCA 2.0. It’s not only the most obvious choice because it’s the most advanced and capable machine on offer but it’s the most cost effective for the IAF.
Rafale is a great aircraft but i donot think it will be cost effective.
If sense prevails (big IF when it comes to indian defences procurment of course) the future MMRCA of IAF is only Rafale Rafale Rafale.
I want to see AMCA develop if they get Rafale in the numbers you suggetsed then they will never let AMCA come to reality.
Again- more Rafales and more LCA are not mutually exclusive, they are both coming and will be complimentary. An F16/Gripen joining the IAF will utterly destroy the LCA project.
Rafale will not only destroy Tejas but also any future prospects of tejas Mk2 and AMCA.
Just my views... :) :D
 

vampyrbladez

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When have these hopes EVER translated into reality? Mid-2019 will be end of 2019 at best.

So trails complete 2019, recommendation given maybe in the middle of 2020, another 6-10 months of dilly dallying then opening of bids of T1/2 jets and only THEN the most exhaustive and complex process of cost and package negotiations will begin (maybe early 2021). Given another 2-3 years of this mess and then another 12 months for the MOD to sit, stall and generally get in the way before it goes for DAC clearance. Then another 12 months for CCS clearance and then contract signature a few months after that. First jet 3 years after THAT date and all 110 5-6 years after that.


What are we up to now? 2028-30?

This is why this farce is doomed to fail.

Let the Rafales come in 10 months, let the IAF be blown away by it and see how quickly the follow on order is placed thereafter (I suspect they will do it in around 2020 so as to maintain deliveries past the final 36th in mid-2022).


MMRCA 2.0 is just a foil that the GOI will use to keep the world’s govts and arms dealers entertained for a few years, will probably make aero India and a few other events more exciting and give some defence mags/sites som additional revenue from ad sales but that’s about it.
Possibly 110 Rafales will be moved by this end. Additional 36 will probably come by 2021.
 

Haldiram

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And it’s a total myth that the Rafale is too expensive for the IAF
It's not costly at current numbers, but it's definitely expensive if you give in to IAF's original demand for 42 squadrons. This number was sanctioned more than decade ago when one needed a large number of 2-3 gen planes to fill gaps. It doesn't hold true for 4+ gen planes, because one doesn't need as many 4+ gen planes to do the job of hundreds of 2-3 gen planes, given their advanced capabilities. But the IAF is stuck to that number like a small kid with no concern for other national realities. Our Navy is falling short of funding, we are looking to build a blue water navy with the appropriate number of carriers and submarines. The Army is falling short of funds for their battlefield management system and basic assault rifles. These assets will be *permanently* deployed on duty, unlike the IAF assets which just stand there like a showpiece. It's like buying an iPhone when there is a hole in one's underwear.

One has to rationalize their demands with changing needs. They can't manage with a ratio of 1 : 10 for Rafale + Tejas squadrons? 1-2 Rafale in a squadron of 15-18 Tejas can act as the eyes and ears of the whole squadron with their advanced radars. Is it necessary for all 18 planes in the squadron to be Rafales? The Rafales can pick out targets and the Tejas can act as a low cost missile carrier for the Rafale to assign targets to. Even after giving them 36 Rafales in flyaway condition, still the IAF keeps planting its politically motivated "research studies" threatening a potential loss in a 2-front war. This is the same elitist lobby that killed the HAL Marut by comparing it with the top of the line fighters of that time. However it was, it suited our needs and granted us autonomy. If it was allowed to survived, it would have been improved and we wouldn't be having this discussion now. We are back to square one and now the IAF is back to its dirty tricks.
 
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Sancho

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The marginal cost for every Rafale after the 36 up to 72 will be about 40% less than the original 36 and after 72 will still be about 20-30% less than the original batch.
And even these fantasy calculations are costlier, than an 126 x MMRCA Rafale deal, let alone a 114 x MMRCA 2.0 deal for any other fighter than Rafale and EF.

The simple fact is, Rafale and EF had and still have the highest unit system costs (including training, spares and customisation...), which only can be reduced if higher numbers are procured. That's why buying fighters in batches is uneconomical, instead of making a larger order right away, which is why IAF wanted 126 x Mirage and not several small batches of Mirage again.

Not to mention that we don't have an option clause, which means we have to re-negotiate the deal for a new batch and Dassault in fact can increase the costs, or because of different currency exchange rates than in 2016, the price can jump up too.
 

Sancho

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Possibly 110 Rafales will be moved by this end. Additional 36 will probably come by 2021.
There is no intention to place an additional batch order, that's why the government removed the standard option clause from the Rafale deal, or stated several times, that they want a larger order with licence production in India. So Dassault has to win the MMRCA 2.0, or at least the naval tender, to secure additional orders for IAF too.
 

vampyrbladez

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There is no intention to place an additional batch order, that's why the government removed the standard option clause from the Rafale deal, or stated several times, that they want a larger order with licence production in India. So Dassault has to win the MMRCA 2.0, or at least the naval tender, to secure additional orders for IAF too.
There is going to be no trials for MMRCA 2.0. Rafale with F4 is shoo in. EADS has stopped funding R&D for Eurofighter. All OEMs buying F 35.
 

Immanuel

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There is going to be no trials for MMRCA 2.0. Rafale with F4 is shoo in. EADS has stopped funding R&D for Eurofighter. All OEMs buying F 35.
And where do you get this from? It's clear trials are going to be held around mid 2020.
 

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