AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)
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icecoolben
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I do have reservations about the mca. How come its top speed is only mach 1.6, it should atleast be 2.1 for its stealth property to be effective, to be truly multi-role by the time it enters service, may be by 2030. They have not specified the thrust both the engines should posses, i recon it should be around 2*150 kn. It must be able to supercruise without after-burners. But the way the specifications have been coming from sources associated with ada, it looks like a twin engined tejas.
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Should India Skip MCA for UFA? IDRW.ORG
Should India Skip MCA for UFA?
By end of this year first flight of PAK-FA is expected and by 2015 derivative project from the PAK FA being developed for the Indian Air Force, officially known has FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) will also take off and induction of this jets will began into Indian air force. Officially number of planes that will be inducted into IAF has not been finalized but defence experts put the number of around 150 to 250. Question which is in my mind for long time is should we skip MCA (Medium combat Aircraft) for UFA (Unmanned Fighter Aircraft)? Many Indians will say that we will be back to Square one, same thing we did after closing down HF-24 and wasted more then three decades to start LCA Project .but we have to see the ground realities .I saw first sketches of MCA almost a decade ago in BR site (: Bharat-Rakshak.com - The Consortium of Indian Military and Defence Websites :) since then whole MCA Project has been on and off with Indian Air force. Other then some CAD images nothing much has come up, I want to put some points and facts which I have put together after consulting many experts from aviation circle in India. Even if MCA gets a go head by 2010 first flight at best can take place by 2018 and worst by 2020, first flight doesn’t mean induction it will take another decade before the technology is matured, tested and inducted into IAF, while same time around 2020 FGFA will be inducted into IAF while MMRCA aircrafts will see last batch been inducted and while production of Sukhoi 30 might have been finished by Hal few years earlier, so how many aircrafts will IAF have in 2020-2030 time frame?
Sukhoi Su-30MKI—- 230+
FGFA —— 100-130
MMRCA—- 120
Tejas-MK-1/MK-II— 140-200
Miscellaneous (Jaguar, Mig-29, Mirage-2000) —- 80-100
So Numbers come up to 650 to 700 combat aircrafts unless follow up orders of MMRCA or Tejas which is highly likely, will add more to the strength of air force .so why I am advocating UFA ? , if Scientist at the time of Tejas Design and Development had not set high goals for themselves, Tejas could have been any third generation aircraft which soon could fade out of air force for been absolute by this 2020-2030 time frame, while DRDO chief M Natarajan to Vayu Aerospace & Defence Review in a interview said that LCA can be made into an advanced UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle), not immediately, perhaps 10 years down the road. Perhaps a more advanced stealthy UFA should be developed based on the technology developed for UFA Tejas .While induction of 5th Gen fighter will take place in many air force around the world soon but the development of the UFA has already begun. UK, Russia and USA have already started their projects and by turn of 2020 we will see this projects mature. If our scientist again put some ahead thinking we will be there with the technology when countries around the world is developing them instead of try catching them, MCA even if it is developed will never truly be a 5th Gen Aircraft, Technology for 5th Gen has not been developed yet nor any country will be sharing it will us soon, sure we will get some exposure to FGFA but since Indian version will only start by 2015 to duplicate them or better them for MCA which will be to late for MCA project .i like to tell readers that whole article is based on my views and all other people with whom I have talked over recent months .
Should India Skip MCA for UFA?
By end of this year first flight of PAK-FA is expected and by 2015 derivative project from the PAK FA being developed for the Indian Air Force, officially known has FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) will also take off and induction of this jets will began into Indian air force. Officially number of planes that will be inducted into IAF has not been finalized but defence experts put the number of around 150 to 250. Question which is in my mind for long time is should we skip MCA (Medium combat Aircraft) for UFA (Unmanned Fighter Aircraft)? Many Indians will say that we will be back to Square one, same thing we did after closing down HF-24 and wasted more then three decades to start LCA Project .but we have to see the ground realities .I saw first sketches of MCA almost a decade ago in BR site (: Bharat-Rakshak.com - The Consortium of Indian Military and Defence Websites :) since then whole MCA Project has been on and off with Indian Air force. Other then some CAD images nothing much has come up, I want to put some points and facts which I have put together after consulting many experts from aviation circle in India. Even if MCA gets a go head by 2010 first flight at best can take place by 2018 and worst by 2020, first flight doesn’t mean induction it will take another decade before the technology is matured, tested and inducted into IAF, while same time around 2020 FGFA will be inducted into IAF while MMRCA aircrafts will see last batch been inducted and while production of Sukhoi 30 might have been finished by Hal few years earlier, so how many aircrafts will IAF have in 2020-2030 time frame?
Sukhoi Su-30MKI—- 230+
FGFA —— 100-130
MMRCA—- 120
Tejas-MK-1/MK-II— 140-200
Miscellaneous (Jaguar, Mig-29, Mirage-2000) —- 80-100
So Numbers come up to 650 to 700 combat aircrafts unless follow up orders of MMRCA or Tejas which is highly likely, will add more to the strength of air force .so why I am advocating UFA ? , if Scientist at the time of Tejas Design and Development had not set high goals for themselves, Tejas could have been any third generation aircraft which soon could fade out of air force for been absolute by this 2020-2030 time frame, while DRDO chief M Natarajan to Vayu Aerospace & Defence Review in a interview said that LCA can be made into an advanced UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle), not immediately, perhaps 10 years down the road. Perhaps a more advanced stealthy UFA should be developed based on the technology developed for UFA Tejas .While induction of 5th Gen fighter will take place in many air force around the world soon but the development of the UFA has already begun. UK, Russia and USA have already started their projects and by turn of 2020 we will see this projects mature. If our scientist again put some ahead thinking we will be there with the technology when countries around the world is developing them instead of try catching them, MCA even if it is developed will never truly be a 5th Gen Aircraft, Technology for 5th Gen has not been developed yet nor any country will be sharing it will us soon, sure we will get some exposure to FGFA but since Indian version will only start by 2015 to duplicate them or better them for MCA which will be to late for MCA project .i like to tell readers that whole article is based on my views and all other people with whom I have talked over recent months .
p2prada
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Top speed is not the most important factor for stealth. Specifications are not public either.
Even the F-15 specifications are only official figures. The real figures for all fighters currently employed are classified.
shankarosky
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top speed is just one of the desirable parameters -more important is sustained top speed and there the ability to supercruise becomes important but even then most comabt aircrafttoady fly most of the time in the 0.8-0.9 mach
that wont happen because IAF cant reduce the number of MMRCA combat aircraft because LCA is not delivered as promised so they have to arrest the falling number of combat aircraft
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MCA is designed to replace Mig-27 and Jaguar. Both Mig-27 and Jaguar are ground attack aircraft. For a strike fighter Mach 1.6 is a very high speed.
Ground attack aircraft fly at low sub-sonic speed for the following reason :-
(1) Low speed increases the amount of time available for bomb run.
(2) More time is available to pick targets.
(3) Bombs and missiles can be guided effectively to the target.
shankarosky
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(1) Low speed increases the amount of time available for bomb run.
(2) More time is available to pick targets.
(3) Bombs and missiles can be guided effectively to the target.
well more specifically the optimum speed for strike mission is 0.7-085 mach sometimes in high threat environment USAF do go mach 1.1 but 0.75 mach may be is the ideal speed from view point of target aquisition,weapon aiming and strike operation itself at medium to low altitude
__________________
(2) More time is available to pick targets.
(3) Bombs and missiles can be guided effectively to the target.
well more specifically the optimum speed for strike mission is 0.7-085 mach sometimes in high threat environment USAF do go mach 1.1 but 0.75 mach may be is the ideal speed from view point of target aquisition,weapon aiming and strike operation itself at medium to low altitude
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Watch this space guys .
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Coming Soon: The Story Of The Medium Combat Aircraft
Tuesday, December 29, 2009
Coming Soon: The Story Of The Medium Combat Aircraft
PhotoArt ©Shiv Aroor
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Coming Soon: The Story Of The Medium Combat Aircraft
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wrong thinking 4th gen birds will be in service till 2030-2035 min
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The article looks to me more like a publicity stunt.
p2prada
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Yeah! It simply increases traffic knowing fanboys will visit the site for a month hoping for some good news.
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But surely increase the morale of existing member and at the same time it simply increases traffic knowing fanboys are surffing google for a month hoping for some good news, so just give them one.Yeah! It simply increases traffic knowing fanboys will visit the site for a month hoping for some good news.
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Shukla ji has said this in comments section ...
I fear --- after reading your list of desires! --- that many of you will be gravely disappointed by my article on the FGFA. Many of the things that you want to know about are still being negotiated between India and Russia.
Also, for those of you who want to know all about the MCA... is it being merged into the FGFA, etc... the answer is NO.
The MCA will be an entirely indigenous effort. The FGFA is a joint development.
Which brings me to the next point, one on which there is a high degree of misinformation amongst my otherwise learned viewers. A co-development programme does not mean that every system and sub-system is developed by joint teams incorporating designers from both partner countries. In a co-development programme, the partners each work separately on those parts of the programme on which they are individually strong.
In many such programmes, there is an arrangement for exchange of designers, so that one or two designers from one country can sit in on the work being done by the partner country designers. But, in most cases, he/she is not designing; he/she is just watching and listening and hoping to pick up expertise. Most of the time, he/she doesn't.
The Brahmos is a prime example. India has designed most of the systems to the front of the missile, and those needed to launch and control it. Russia has handled the rear, including the propulsion system. India got a great deal out of the Brahmos and learned a hell of a lot. The Brahmos, in my opinion, is a fine product from a fine development partnership.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8726844009873922462&postID=3125992170663296294
I fear --- after reading your list of desires! --- that many of you will be gravely disappointed by my article on the FGFA. Many of the things that you want to know about are still being negotiated between India and Russia.
Also, for those of you who want to know all about the MCA... is it being merged into the FGFA, etc... the answer is NO.
The MCA will be an entirely indigenous effort. The FGFA is a joint development.
Which brings me to the next point, one on which there is a high degree of misinformation amongst my otherwise learned viewers. A co-development programme does not mean that every system and sub-system is developed by joint teams incorporating designers from both partner countries. In a co-development programme, the partners each work separately on those parts of the programme on which they are individually strong.
In many such programmes, there is an arrangement for exchange of designers, so that one or two designers from one country can sit in on the work being done by the partner country designers. But, in most cases, he/she is not designing; he/she is just watching and listening and hoping to pick up expertise. Most of the time, he/she doesn't.
The Brahmos is a prime example. India has designed most of the systems to the front of the missile, and those needed to launch and control it. Russia has handled the rear, including the propulsion system. India got a great deal out of the Brahmos and learned a hell of a lot. The Brahmos, in my opinion, is a fine product from a fine development partnership.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8726844009873922462&postID=3125992170663296294
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His own reply
Broadsword said...Anonymous 01:00:
This is not hype! It's a way to gauge what specific points visitors are interested in, so that they can --- if possible --- be included in the article.
neo29
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MCA is going to be powered by kaveri engines . but already kaveri is having problems and years away from installing even on the lca.
in that case assuming that MCA may have to import its engines. I dont think US is gonna sell its f119 and f135 engines which are the best for 5th gen fighters any time in next 15 20 years.
So i think MCA major problems will be engines. ironically its the same problem for the LCA.
Hope these guys solve the engine prob or have a backup to import engines or its gonna take years to build it just like the LCA.
in that case assuming that MCA may have to import its engines. I dont think US is gonna sell its f119 and f135 engines which are the best for 5th gen fighters any time in next 15 20 years.
So i think MCA major problems will be engines. ironically its the same problem for the LCA.
Hope these guys solve the engine prob or have a backup to import engines or its gonna take years to build it just like the LCA.
notinlove
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In August 2008, right about the time the Indian Air Force had decided to officially kickstart procedures to get the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) off the realm of theory, then Chief of Air Staff Fali Major happened to bump into DRDO chief M Natarajan and then HAL chairman Ashok Baweja at an industry suppliers function in Bangalore. The Chief was mildly irritated that both Baweja and Natarajan had provided media sound-bytes and interviews suggesting that the MCA would have "fifth generation technologies". He impressed upon both gentlemen, over tea, that if the MCA went the LCA way, it would be not just unacceptable to the air force, but an act of criminal disregard for the country's security. "Give the air force a bloody first-rate fourth generation aeroplane. That is the job before you," he said.
Two months later, in October 2008, the name of the MCA programme was changed (on recommendation to the Secretary, Defence Production) to "Next Generation Fighter Aircraft", though MCA continues to be used alternatively without any particular distinction.
As per official documentation by the IAF, it wants the MCA to be a twin-pilot configured multirole stealth aircraft capable of "close air support, all weather interception, air defence suppression, long-range strike, electronic attack, limited command & control and reconnaisance" -- that's the profile from an official IAF wishlist to the ADA last year. That might roll right off the air force's tongue, like off a brochure, but they're deadly serious. Putting all speculation to rest when it officially began dialogue about the MCA in 2008, the IAF said it was not willing to look at a strike aircraft with other capabilities. It wants a fully multirole (preferably, swingrole) aircraft for the job.
As we speak, a joint committee of several bodies involved with the NGFA is finetuning the configuration of the final jet, before work begins on building a tech demonstrator, three prototype vehicles and two production series trial jets -- the wind tunnel model unveiled at Yelahanka in February 2009 is largely what the aircraft will look like, though there are three other variants that have not been displayed yet. A twin-engine delta planfrom version, which was a direct derivative from the LCA, has since been shelved -- low observable requirements demanded a fully new airframe approach, which finally ended in the design that people got to see at Aero India 2009. While the wind-tunnel model, fabricated by a Bangalore-based engineering firm, is the product of an ADA/HAL study, there will be dramatic changes yet to the aircraft's intakes (utterly radar friendly, according to the IAF), vertical stabilisers and dorsal section, say sources.
Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, in his first interaction with the ADA last year, seemed to nitpick on indigenous radar capability, more than anything else when it came to the topic of the MCA. Sources say he was deeply incensed when given a brief on the Multi-mode Radar (MMR), pioneered by the Electronics Research & Development Establishment (LRDE) for the LCA Tejas programme. In a chat with the director of the ADA, he said the next aircraft that the agency designed and built, needed to be centred around an Indian active array combat radar. In fact, the LRDE has already proposed a second radar (deriving from the MMR) for the MCA, with technological spin-offs currently being gleaned from its partnership with Israel's Elta. But Naik didn't buy that. He said it didn't matter what the DRDO was learning from who at this stage. When it came down to putting the nails in, he said he wanted a fully Indian radar on the MCA.
While configuration fructifies, the following work has begun on the MCA in full earnest: DARE, Bangalore has appointed a special team to begin identifying avionics and cockpit packages for the first prototype vehicle, and will supply this in published form to the ADA by July 2010. This will include cockpit electronics, cockpit configuration, man-machine interface, mission console systems and computers/software with a focus on data fusion and modular architecture. The LRDE will, in about the same time frame, provide a separate project proposal for an all new radar, to be re-designated for the MCA, as a derivative of the MMR currently being completed with technology from Israel's ELTA. LRDE will independently look in the market for a partner for active array technology, though it communicated to ADA in June 2009 that it had sufficient R&D available to build a reliable AESA prototype with assistance from Bharat Electronics Ltd and two private firms based in Hyderabad.
There is a collossal amount of work going on as far as materials is concerned for the MCA/NGFA. With the IAF unmoving in its demand for an aircraft that has stealth characteristics built into it from the drawing board forward, the DRDO has powered teams within its materials laboratories in Pune and Hyderabad to come up with new composities, low observable materials fabrication techniques, and of course, radar-absorbent control surface aggregates, airframe materials and paints. This is, of course, completely separate from design characteristics, including internal weapons, fresh leading edge innovations and a sustainable stealth maintenance footprint.
The most crucial part of the programme is of course the engine. The Kaveri-Snecma turbofan is being counted upon vigorously to be ready to power prototypes of the MCA by the middle of this decade. There is no Plan-B just yet as far as engines go. However, technologies such as single crystal and nickel-based superalloys in turbofans are still some way off as far as Indian development is concerned -- the IAF wants the use of both to be a given in the engines that power the MCA.
According to the ADA, the government will look to purchase upto 250 MCAs when its done and ready -- not just as a replacement to the MiG-27s and Jaguars, but to complement the MMRCA fleet that will hopefully be half-inducted by then.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: India's Medium Combat Aircraft
Two months later, in October 2008, the name of the MCA programme was changed (on recommendation to the Secretary, Defence Production) to "Next Generation Fighter Aircraft", though MCA continues to be used alternatively without any particular distinction.
As per official documentation by the IAF, it wants the MCA to be a twin-pilot configured multirole stealth aircraft capable of "close air support, all weather interception, air defence suppression, long-range strike, electronic attack, limited command & control and reconnaisance" -- that's the profile from an official IAF wishlist to the ADA last year. That might roll right off the air force's tongue, like off a brochure, but they're deadly serious. Putting all speculation to rest when it officially began dialogue about the MCA in 2008, the IAF said it was not willing to look at a strike aircraft with other capabilities. It wants a fully multirole (preferably, swingrole) aircraft for the job.
As we speak, a joint committee of several bodies involved with the NGFA is finetuning the configuration of the final jet, before work begins on building a tech demonstrator, three prototype vehicles and two production series trial jets -- the wind tunnel model unveiled at Yelahanka in February 2009 is largely what the aircraft will look like, though there are three other variants that have not been displayed yet. A twin-engine delta planfrom version, which was a direct derivative from the LCA, has since been shelved -- low observable requirements demanded a fully new airframe approach, which finally ended in the design that people got to see at Aero India 2009. While the wind-tunnel model, fabricated by a Bangalore-based engineering firm, is the product of an ADA/HAL study, there will be dramatic changes yet to the aircraft's intakes (utterly radar friendly, according to the IAF), vertical stabilisers and dorsal section, say sources.
Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, in his first interaction with the ADA last year, seemed to nitpick on indigenous radar capability, more than anything else when it came to the topic of the MCA. Sources say he was deeply incensed when given a brief on the Multi-mode Radar (MMR), pioneered by the Electronics Research & Development Establishment (LRDE) for the LCA Tejas programme. In a chat with the director of the ADA, he said the next aircraft that the agency designed and built, needed to be centred around an Indian active array combat radar. In fact, the LRDE has already proposed a second radar (deriving from the MMR) for the MCA, with technological spin-offs currently being gleaned from its partnership with Israel's Elta. But Naik didn't buy that. He said it didn't matter what the DRDO was learning from who at this stage. When it came down to putting the nails in, he said he wanted a fully Indian radar on the MCA.
While configuration fructifies, the following work has begun on the MCA in full earnest: DARE, Bangalore has appointed a special team to begin identifying avionics and cockpit packages for the first prototype vehicle, and will supply this in published form to the ADA by July 2010. This will include cockpit electronics, cockpit configuration, man-machine interface, mission console systems and computers/software with a focus on data fusion and modular architecture. The LRDE will, in about the same time frame, provide a separate project proposal for an all new radar, to be re-designated for the MCA, as a derivative of the MMR currently being completed with technology from Israel's ELTA. LRDE will independently look in the market for a partner for active array technology, though it communicated to ADA in June 2009 that it had sufficient R&D available to build a reliable AESA prototype with assistance from Bharat Electronics Ltd and two private firms based in Hyderabad.
There is a collossal amount of work going on as far as materials is concerned for the MCA/NGFA. With the IAF unmoving in its demand for an aircraft that has stealth characteristics built into it from the drawing board forward, the DRDO has powered teams within its materials laboratories in Pune and Hyderabad to come up with new composities, low observable materials fabrication techniques, and of course, radar-absorbent control surface aggregates, airframe materials and paints. This is, of course, completely separate from design characteristics, including internal weapons, fresh leading edge innovations and a sustainable stealth maintenance footprint.
The most crucial part of the programme is of course the engine. The Kaveri-Snecma turbofan is being counted upon vigorously to be ready to power prototypes of the MCA by the middle of this decade. There is no Plan-B just yet as far as engines go. However, technologies such as single crystal and nickel-based superalloys in turbofans are still some way off as far as Indian development is concerned -- the IAF wants the use of both to be a given in the engines that power the MCA.
According to the ADA, the government will look to purchase upto 250 MCAs when its done and ready -- not just as a replacement to the MiG-27s and Jaguars, but to complement the MMRCA fleet that will hopefully be half-inducted by then.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: India's Medium Combat Aircraft
