AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It proves they don't make SCB.

Al31F is 1980s engine. SCB started only after 1985. EVen engines of similar timeline like F404 uses DSB. So, if I am right, Al31F uses Directionally Solidified blades. But, HAL has SCB manufacturing technology too. Please look at the first picture I posted above where it clearly says that Single crystal furnace and powder metallurgy are available with HAL.

Edit: Al31F may have SCB of 1st generation but definitely does not have modern SCB of 2nd or 3rd generation. The 2nd and above generation SCB started from 1985. The 1st generation SCB existed even before. Also, the SCB of 2nd & 3rd gen requires rhenium which India can't afford anyways.

I am not 100% sure whether Al31F uses 1st gen SCB or DSB. It may use either of the two. Regardless, HAL has said that it does have SCB furnace. SO, that is not an issue

 

[darshan978]

It proves they don't make SCB.

Becase al 31fp doesnt have it
Only al41 has single crystal blades..

 

[Chinmoy]

Becase al 31fp doesnt have it
Only al41 has single crystal blades..

Request you not to go by Tiwari Logic.

Presentation on Heat resistant coating for SCBs of AL-31FP (AeroIndia-2015)

https://aquantumofmind.wordpress.co...t-coating-for-scbs-of-al-31fp-aeroindia-2015/

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Request you not to go by Tiwari Logic.

Presentation on Heat resistant coating for SCBs of AL-31FP (AeroIndia-2015)

https://aquantumofmind.wordpress.co...t-coating-for-scbs-of-al-31fp-aeroindia-2015/

I have said that Al31F does not have 2nd gen SCB or above. It is either 1st gen or DS. Please look at the edit above. In all cases, the rhenium based SCB is not available in Al31F. This much is guaranteed

 

[Armand2REP]

I have said that Al31F does not have 2nd gen SCB or above. It is either 1st gen or DS. Please look at the edit above. In all cases, the rhenium based SCB is not available in Al31F. This much is guaranteed

Your Sukhois are not flying 1st gen Lyulka blades, they are 2nd gen SCB and you import them in the axial compressors from Russia. Did you really think you made the hot section of those engines? If you did then you wouldn't have a problem making Kaveri.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Your Sukhois are not flying 1st gen Lyulka blades, they are 2nd gen SCB and you import them in the axial compressors from Russia. Did you really think you made the hot section of those engines? If you did then you wouldn't have a problem making Kaveri.

Blades are not the problem, but other things are. We have already made dry section of Kaveri which ahs been tested in aerial and naval mode. It is the basis for Ghatak UAV too. It has 52kN thrust. Wet thrust will be 81kN which is likely to be used in Rafale made in India.

Kaveri is just underpowered. Initially, tejas was expected to be quite light and hence this Kaveri was considered suitable. But now, Tejas is deemed to be too light and hence we are going for new MWF. Tejas will be only 123 manufactured and the lines will be closed forever after that.

Nevertheless, we already have made dry part of the engine and the wet part has also been tested successfully as per recent reports from France certification agency. So, the blade part has been taken care of

 

[Armand2REP]

Blades are not the problem, but other things are. We have already made dry section of Kaveri which ahs been tested in aerial and naval mode. It is the basis for Ghatak UAV too. It has 52kN thrust. Wet thrust will be 81kN which is likely to be used in Rafale made in India.

Kaveri is just underpowered. Initially, tejas was expected to be quite light and hence this Kaveri was considered suitable. But now, Tejas is deemed to be too light and hence we are going for new MWF. Tejas will be only 123 manufactured and the lines will be closed forever after that.

Nevertheless, we already have made dry part of the engine and the wet part has also been tested successfully as per recent reports from France certification agency. So, the blade part has been taken care of

I don't know what reports you are reading but the only thing Safran has done is designed a Kaveri with an M88 core. It can't be certified until it is built and they have been waiting almost a year for GoI to sign off. They have decided on F414 instead... Kaveri is dead.

Tejas too light? I thought it was too heavy. Tejas is alive and well with US engines as long as HAL can produce it on time. The requirement is for over 300.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

only thing Safran has done is designed a Kaveri with an M88 core

We can't even replace the engine of a truck in a SUV or engine of Mercedes in BMW. How do you expect to use M88 core in Kaveri engine? The weight, size, airflow etc are all quite different. It is impossible to even think of such things and has never been done before.

Tejas too light? I thought it was too heavy.

Too heavy to take off from carrier due to low thrust engine but too light for usage in terms of payload and range for Air force

Tejas is alive and well with US engines as long as HAL can produce it on time.

Tejas is alive but not well. HAL can produce as many as required. But the Tejas is not required due to its small size. Bigger plane is needed and there comes MWF. Tejas will be limited to 123 - 130 only

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I have said that Al31F does not have 2nd gen SCB or above. It is either 1st gen or DS. Please look at the edit above. In all cases, the rhenium based SCB is not available in Al31F. This much is guaranteed

One more way to look at the thing is Just Check the Thrust to weight ratio of the plane. Where the others planes have reached about 1:10, Russian engine has it around 8.5. They have yet to go a long way. I think Russia may bypass SCB and straight way go for ceramic blades. If it is goes well, it will be a game changer.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

One more way to look at the thing is Just Check the Thrust to weight ratio of the plane. Where the others planes have reached about 1:10, Russian engine has it around 8.5. They have yet to go a long way. I think Russia may bypass SCB and straight way go for ceramic blades. If it is goes well, it will be a game changer.

TWR also depends on metals available. Rhenium is not accessible to India and hence TWR of 9 or more is difficult. In case of Russia, they have Al41 engine with TWR of 8.5-9 which is good enough. High TWR of 10 is only in F135 due to its extraordinary large size (120/180kN) and is not possible in smaller engines. Ceramic blades is not a realistic thing as of now.

 

[Armand2REP]

We can't even replace the engine of a truck in a SUV or engine of Mercedes in BMW. How do you expect to use M88 core in Kaveri engine? The weight, size, airflow etc are all quite different. It is impossible to even think of such things and has never been done before.

It is called world class software that allows you to design and simulate something without actually building it... Dassault Systèmes’ 3DEXPERIENCE.

Too heavy to take off from carrier due to low thrust engine but too light for usage in terms of payload and range for Air force

Too light of a class, I still think IAF has much need for that catagory.

Tejas is alive but not well. HAL can produce as many as required. But the Tejas is not required due to its small size. Bigger plane is needed and there comes MWF. Tejas will be limited to 123 - 130 only

I think the fly-away cost will determine how many are finally ordered. If it is going to cost approaching a Rafale then they will buy more of Dassault. If they can keep the cost to $40 million you will see several hundred Tejas.

 

[Shiv sagar]

TWR also depends on metals available. Rhenium is not accessible to India and hence TWR of 9 or more is difficult. In case of Russia, they have Al41 engine with TWR of 8.5-9 which is good enough. High TWR of 10 is only in F135 due to its extraordinary large size (120/180kN) and is not possible in smaller engines. Ceramic blades is not a realistic thing as of now.

Rhenium in Indian rivers: Sources, fluxes, and contribution to oceanic budget.....
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2012GC004083

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It is called world class software that allows you to design and simulate something without actually building it... Dassault Systèmes’ 3DEXPERIENCE.

You can simulate all you want but fitting M88 core in kaveri will be rejected even by simulations. It is not that you can create magical items by simulating! The combination of one core in another engine parts is simply incompatible. Computers may at most show that it is impossible.

Too light of a class, I still think IAF has much need for that catagory.

IAF wanted replacement for MiG21 in 1990s-2000 but now want multirole plane. Tejas is too light class for that. Mere interceptor is not needed anymore as advanced SAM and other equipments have made it redundant

I think the fly-away cost will determine how many are finally ordered. If it is going to cost approaching a Rafale then they will buy more of Dassault. If they can keep the cost to $40 million you will see several hundred Tejas.

Regardless of cost, the class itself is considered insufficient.

Rhenium in Indian rivers: Sources, fluxes, and contribution to oceanic budget.....
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2012GC004083

Every country has all type of elements. But it is not in mineable quantity everywhere. India does not have mineable rhenium anywhere. Few partices of rhenium is insufficient

 

[Bleh]

Aero India 2017 or 2019...

 

[arya]

Everything is on papers we need things on reality .

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

Aero India 2017 or 2019...
View attachment 34300 View attachment 34301

man what i really want to see is the drdo awac on A330.
It will be a glorious sight to see.

 

[Armand2REP]

You can simulate all you want but fitting M88 core in kaveri will be rejected even by simulations. It is not that you can create magical items by simulating! The combination of one core in another engine parts is simply incompatible. Computers may at most show that it is impossible.

If it was impossible then Safran wouldn't have offered it. For GoI to accept it was no cost to them if it failed, Safran would foot the bill for the entire programme.

IAF wanted replacement for MiG21 in 1990s-2000 but now want multirole plane. Tejas is too light class for that. Mere interceptor is not needed anymore as advanced SAM and other equipments have made it redundant

If IAF is willing to reduce its sanctioned squadron strength then that makes sense. It honestly looks like that is where it will end up unless Tejas can stick to $40m per copy.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If IAF is willing to reduce its sanctioned squadron strength then that makes sense. It honestly looks like that is where it will end up unless Tejas can stick to $40m per copy

Tejas is not expensive per unit but it is the development cost distributed over just 123 planes which inflate the cost

If it was impossible then Safran wouldn't have offered it. For GoI to accept it was no cost to them if it failed, Safran would foot the bill for the entire programme.

Since the history of engines show that such moves are impossible, I have deduced that France has accepted to allow Kaveri engine itself to be fitted in Rafale.

 

[Defcon 1]

Tejas is not expensive per unit but it is the development cost distributed over just 123 planes which inflate the cost

Really? A source for this delusional claim?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Really? A source for this delusional claim?

First you give source for your delusional claim that per unit cost if Tejas excluding development coat and infrastructure building cost is above $40 million. Then we can talk of my source. You made the claim first, so give source first